'Who created God' is an Illogical Question!

[Apollo]

Wisdom from a spiritual teacher - India.

 

[gasgas]

What is God?

Friend, you will get those answers some other time

I have been here on this thread for atleast 10 hours, i have to pursue other things alright,

Kiranga
I am waiting on you? What do you say?
Are you willing to go through that journey and then we can set an appointment here on JF where we discuss what each one has learned.

I also offer to read the Articles you posted open-mindedly
We go study them and we will meet here on an appointed date and reason together.

How does that sound to you?

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Now Kiranga
This is an example of a guy who is open minded,
He may be an atheist but he is willing to listen and be challenged on what he knows

And this is how we learn,by accepting what we know is not enough,
We may not have all the answers,
what may seem right right now could turn out to be wrong once greater knowledge is revealed unto you

Nadhni hata mwanzo wa thread nilianza na logic hiyo hiyo

To a 2nd grader 2-6 is impossible, but to a pHD mathematician, ts a piece of cake


But as for you my friend, making a huuuuuuge conclusion based on one side of the argument ......

I shudder to think

Anyways brother i still hope you are as open minded as you say you are

Nikikupa a good link, read it and compare with zile ulizonipa

Ukimaliza then tukutane tena

Are you willing?

Thank you, kindly.

And just an FYI, I am not an atheist.

I am agnostic.

That's probably why you see I'm open minded, which I am when it comes to the issue of deity.

 

[Namge]

Jamani hizi mada zenu za kumdhihaki Mungu mi zinaniudhi sana, hebu mwacheni Mungu wetu kwa nini mnamsakama kila wakati..
hebu zitajeni neema zake alizowabariki, acheni kumdhihaki Mungu, Mungu ni MKUU, ASIFIWAYE NA ANATUKUZWA KILA SIKU

Be specific Mkuu..

 

[Namge]

Hivi kama Mungu yupo, mbona tunabishana juu ya uwepo wake?

Kwa nini hatubishanii juu ya uwepo wa vitu vingine ambavyo wengi wetu hatujawahi kuviona?

Kwa nini Mungu ajifiche mbali na watu wake?

Kuna ubaya gani kwa Mungu kuonekana kwa viumbe wake?

I have come to realize that God is man made phenomenon, He was created within the mind of ancient people.

Spirit, soul and body.. Mkuu Nisaidie kujua hii misamiati hapo juu...ili nikuelewe.. Na ikiwezekana nikuamini...

 

[nanix]

Hivi kama Mungu yupo, mbona tunabishana juu ya uwepo wake?

Kwa nini hatubishanii juu ya uwepo wa vitu vingine ambavyo wengi wetu hatujawahi kuviona?

Kwa nini Mungu ajifiche mbali na watu wake?

Kuna ubaya gani kwa Mungu kuonekana kwa viumbe wake?

I have come to realize that God is man made phenomenon, He was created within the mind of ancient people.

Mbona alishakuja duniani...yesu kristo..

 

[gasgas]

Thank you, kindly.

And just an FYI, I am not an atheist.

I am agnostic.

That's probably why you see I'm open minded, which I am when it comes to the issue of deity.

Unajua these matters are deep,
Mimi mwenyewe i consider myself inadequate in the knowledge of what i believe. I am a very young man so that probably plays a part

Lakini these matters are deeper than just a point of view
To me they are matters of life and death.
The knowledge on matters of my faith is transforming me with every passing day. I see them change the way i act.
Sometimes i stumble upon scriptures and fail to understand a few things and it's just beautiful. it just reveals to me how much my understanding can fail sometime and it has raised my dependence on discernment, revelation above knowledge,
Wisdom above understanding.
To me it reveals the existence of something greater than me that my finite mind can't comprehend fully.

If at times i fail to explain certain phenomenon im my field of study who can i expect it to be easier to comprehend the creater of the universe.
But in humility there comes greater revelation.
Knowledge comes to a person who is willing to listen and be taught

Anyways i don't know if this is a reply to your post anyways but i have typed it and wont delete
So there it goes, a reply to your post

 

[Kiranga]

Ok, hapo sawa.



Ushahidi wa kimantiki au maswali ya kimantiki ambayo labda hayajibiki au bado tu hatujapata majibu yake?

Sidhani kama huo unaouita 'ushahidi wa kimantiki' ni ushahidi. Hayo ni maswali. Na maswali si ushahidi.



Sidhani kama huo ni ushahidi. Au pengine unaweza kuniwekea hapa huo ushahidi nami niuone?



Sasa hapo anayesema hivyo ni mungu mwenyewe au watu ndo wanasema kuwa mungu yupo?



La muhimu hapo ni kujua ni nani anasema hivyo. Binadamu tuna uwezo wa kusema lolote lile. Hata wewe mwenyewe huwa unasema/unaandika kuwa wewe ni Papa.

But saying it so doesn't make it so. Sasa mungu mwenyewe ndo aliwachagua Wayahudi wawe taifa lake au watu ndo wanaosema hivyo?

Vipi kama huyo mungu huwa anasingiziwa mengi ilhali yeye mwenyewe wala hayuko hivyo anavodaiwa alivyo?



Ndo maana nasema hapo ni muhimu kujua anayesema ni nani. Je, ni mungu mwenyewe au ni watu tu?

Usikute mungu mwenyewe wala hana hizo sifa zote anazopewa ila baadhi ya watu kutokana pengine na ujinga wao wanamtwisha sifa kemkem ambazo hana.



Kama kweli mungu yupo basi huwezi kumuweka kwenye mizani ya kibinadamu. Yeye ni mungu, after all.



Ni kweli, contradictions zipo, tena nyingi tu.

Lakini kama ambavyo unasema habari zake ni tungo za watu wa kale ambao walikuwa hawana elimu kubwa, inawezekana hata sisi bado tukawa hatuna ujuzi wa kutosha wa kuweza kuujua kwa uhakika ukweli wa mambo.

Maana itafika wakati hata sisi tutaonekana kuwa ni watu wa kale.

I like to think that knowledge is provisional. Miaka milioni mia moja toka sasa unadhani ujuzi na ufahamu wa mambo mengi tulio nao sasa hivi bado utaendelea kuwa ndo huo huo?

Mimi sijui. Ila naweza kutabiri kuwa haitakuwa hivyo.

If you want to make anything unintelligible, if you are intelligent enough, you can do that.

People have question their own existence, so certainly philosophy has the capacity to create an idea that is beyond human comprehension. After all, we have a great expanse of the unknown, how can we know the unknown? We can't.

I am discussing God in a very methodical way, because any other discussion of such an otherwordly concept will descend into chaos faster than you can say "Shekoloshabangeeshe".

First and foremost, I am discussing a God who has the characteristics of being omnipotent, omniscient and omni benevolent.

Second of all, I am discussing this God in the context and framework of logic. Without such a context, the entire conversation is meaningless.

Without such a context, it is possible God exists, it is possible God does not exist, it is possible God exists and does not exists at the same time, the entire conversation is meaningless.

Having said that, one very important compass that can be used, is the position of humankind.

If God is all that, then he is supposed the have better systems, ethics etc than humankind.

But we don't see that from the natural world. The current hurricane that devastated Haiti is an example of merciless forces of nature supposedly from a God full of mercy. Inconsistent and contradictory.

Of course, any half wit can argue that maybe we do not understand the mind of God because he is just too great. But that is a tired "Deus ex Machina" that could be used to excuse any shortcoming in anything. So I will not take that. A n omnipotent omniscient and omni benevolent Godhead ought to do better than that.

Of course you can say the very characteristics of omnipotence, omniscience and omni benevolence need not apply to God, in response to that I would then say that that God is not really God, maybe just a very powerful Klingon.

Kuhusu ukweli wa mambo, kuna mtu alisema ukweli wa mambo si tu ni wa ajabu kuliko tunavyofikiri, bali pia ni wa ajabu kuliko tunavyoweza kufikiri.

Mungu tumeweza kumfikiri, tumempima akaonekana amepwaya kwenye vipimo vya ukweli.

Tunahitaji kuchunguza zaidi kuelewa mambo deeply zaidi ya habari za Mungu, angalau huyu Mungu mwenye ujuzi wote, uwezo wote na upendo wote ambaye anaonekana wazi kuwa kuwepo kwake kuna matatizo makubwa sana.

 

[nanix]

Ubishi huu ni mrefu kwa sababu tunabishania kitu ambacho hakipo.

Kwa sababu kitu kilichopo ni rahisi sana kuthibitisha kipo.

Kitu ambacho hakipo huwezi kuthibitisha kwamba kipo au hakipo kirahisi.

Ukweli kwamba kuthibitisha kwamba Mungu yupo au hayupo ni kitu kigumu unaonesha Mungu hayupo.

Angekuwepo ingekuwa rahisi sana kuthibitisha yupo bila ubishi.

Na kwa jinsi anavyopenda sifa kama mlivyomuandika kwenye vitabu vyenu, angepanga nyota ziandike angani kwamba Mungu yupo hivyo binadamu wote aminini Mungu yupo.

The fact kwamba hakufanya hivyo na anapenda sifa sana ni contradiction inayoonesha hayupo.

Mungu ni roho. You cannot see him by your eyes, unless he decides to do so like for the case of Jesus. Mbona wapo watu wamewahi muona yesu in visions, dreams etc.

 

[gasgas]

What is God?

Ukirudi naomba unifundishe na mimi nielewe.

Cool
No sweat

As a disclaimer I am not 100% in Bible knowledge,nobody is because we're all learning, we're all continually amazed and inspired by it

I will just share what I know

If you can please pitia some references so that once we meet again tusiwe wote blank
We won't get anywhere

Au sio
Peace man

 

[Apollo]

Cool
No sweat

As a disclaimer I am not 100% in Bible knowledge,nobody is because we're all learning, we're all continually amazed and inspired by it

I will just share what I know

If you can please pitia some references so that once we meet again tusiwe wote blank
We won't get anywhere

Au sio
Peace man

Nimepitia vyema, you don't have to worry.

 

[gasgas]

Kiranga
Are you in or out?
I'm basically waiting on your reply before i move on

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga
before i go ahead and start copying-pasting explanations to those contradictions i need to ask you something

Did you ever make time to read what Bible scholars have to say about those "contradictions"

You say you're open minded, then how do you come to a conclusion based on one side of the coin?

That seems so unlike how you said you are
You said you prefer a Logical framework

In logic do we make conclusions after listening to one side of the argument

I don't want to start posting stuff that you won't even read


If you are as open minded as you say allow me to give you a good link a place where Bible scholars have studied and solved these misunderstandings


So that now that you have a clear view on both sides of an argument and can make a conclusion like a science-based person you claim to be


Are you ready?

Because nikianza kupost hapa you will wear me out and you have proven to me that you don't wanna listen to anything, you just want to have the last say.
I am not here for that. I want to reason with you.

But you couldn't even read the one post where i atleast explained one of those contradictions you posted

You are narrow-minded but i'll gladly accept being proven wrong


Nikupe a LINK where you can go read on those so that the next time we talk you have both sides of the argument?

Bible scholars are contradicting themselves or using "Deus ex machina".

Why would God's book need scholars anyway?

Couldn't God make his book accessible to everybody like breathing in a way that it does not need scholars?

The fact that we need Bible scholars shows that the Bible is not the book of God.

If it was, we would not need these scholars.

 

[gasgas]

Nimepitia vyema, you don't have to worry.

Nah i suggest upitie tena

There's a quote inasema "Repetition increases impression"

Soma the points za watu ambao unakubaliana nao kuhusu the God in the Bible
And ntakupa link ya upande wa pili.

Ukija tutadiscuss your issue na ile ya Kiranga

 

[Kiranga]

You don't believe Jesus existed anyways

I have texted you hapo juu

Umekubali?

How long do you think it will take you to do that?

Nimekujibu.

Why would God's book need scholars?

God couln't make his book so simple and clear to the extent that it does not need scholars?

 

[nanix]

Angekuwa na uwezo mkubwa hivyo na upendo mkubwa hivyo asingeumba ulimwengu unaoruhusu viumbe ambao hawana 100% efficient systems kwa standards za wanadamu.

Wewe unaweza kutengeneza nini? Njiti ya kiberiti?

 

[ShyaRuwa]

inahitaji ujasiri kufanya mambo hayo sana mana sio tu unadanganya wengine bali unajidanganya mpk ww mwenyewe. Hujawah hata kusikia sauti ya mungu wala malaika halafu unajitokeza hadharani kabisa na kusema yupo...

Mkuu hata wachungaji wanajua kabisa kuwa hakuna sauti ya Mungu.Ukitaka kuthibitisha hilo fanya zoezi hili:

Chukua milioni moja uende kanisani/ofisini kwa mchungaji, ukifika mwambie....Baba mchungaji nimeisikia sauti ya Mungu ikiniambia nimtolee malimbuko/fungu la kumi, nami kwa kuitii sauti ya Mungu nimemletea Bwana haki yake.Nakuomba uipokee, uiombee na uniombee kwa Mumngu.(observe reaction, kama vile facial expressions)....Lazima atafurahi sana, na kukusifu kwa kuisikia sauti ya Bw.

Baada ya miezi miwili nenda tena kwa mchungaji na umwambie....Baba mchungaji Mungu amejidhihirisha kwangu na amenibariki....nimepandishwa cheo kazini na mshahara wangu umeongezeka zaidi ya mara mbili na nusu.Lazima aseme haleluya na kumshangilia Bwana.Mpe chochote(pesa) halafu mfanye sala ya kuagana.Hakikisha unawasiliana naye mara kwa mara.

Miezi mitatu baadae mwendee tena na umwambie....Baba mchungaji nimeisikia ile sauti ya Bwana ikinena nami, inaniambia niache kazi....nimesali sana kumtaka Bw. aniambie nitafanya nini baada ya kuacha kazi lakini Bwana amenitaka niache kazi kwanza....observe reaction, hapo hawezi kuishangilia sauti ya bwana kama ile ya mwanzoni....Lazima akuambie....umeisikiliza vema sauti ya Bw?....Na badala ya kukusifu kwa kuisikiliza sauti ya bwana, atakuambia nenda kasali, funga, na kesha kumwomba Bwana akujulishe kama amenena nawe?.....Hapo ndo utaelewa hawa watu walishajidatia longi.

 

[gasgas]

Bible scholars are contradicting themselves or using "Deus ex machina".

Why would God's book need scholars anyway?

Couldn't God make his book accessible to everybody like breathing in a way that it does not need scholars?

The fact that we need Bible scholars shows that the Bible is not the book of God.

If it was, we would not need these scholars.

The Book is accessible to everyone,
anyone can be a scholar, even I
anybody can study it, i repeat,
Anybody

But to make things easier i will put up those links so that you may know what has been studied on those issues you raised


Are you in or out?

You want to stay with you side of the argument that you posted or you wanna see the other side as well before you make a conclusion, like an open minded person would?

 

[Kiranga]

Friend, you will get those answers some other time

I have been here on this thread for atleast 10 hours, i have to pursue other things alright,

Kiranga
I am waiting on you? What do you say?
Are you willing to go through that journey and then we can set an appointment here on JF where we discuss what each one has learned.

I also offer to read the Articles you posted open-mindedly
We go study them and we will meet here on an appointed date and reason together.

How does that sound to you?

First of all can you answer my question?

Why would God's book need scholars?

In fact, why would God need a book anyway?

Couldn't he insert some memory in our heads from birth, each in their own language, and save us from all the translation and verification?

Why didn't he do that?

Is it because God does not exist and these books are manmade?

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

If you want to make anything unintelligible, if you are intelligent enough, you can do that.

People have question their own existence, so certainly philosophy has the capacity to create an idea that is beyond human comprehension. After all, we have a great expanse of the unknown, how can we know the unknown? We can't.

I am discussing God in a very methodical way, because any other discussion of such an otherwordly concept will descend into chaos faster than you can say "Shekoloshabangeeshe".

First and foremost, I am discussing a God who has the characteristics of being omnipotent, omniscient and omni benevolent.

Second of all, I am discussing this God in the context and framework of logic. Without such a context, the entire conversation is meaningless.

Without such a context, it is possible God exists, it is possible God does not exist, it is possible God exists and does not exists at the same time, the entire conversation is meaningless.

Having said that, one very important compass that can be used, is the position of humankind.

If God is all that, then he is supposed the have better systems, ethics etc than humankind.

But we don't see that from the natural world. The current hurricane that devastated Haiti is an example of merciless forces of nature supposedly from a God full of mercy. Inconsistent and contradictory.

Of course, any half wit can argue that maybe we do not understand the mind of God because he is just too great. But that is a tired "Deus ex Machina" that could be used to excuse any shortcoming in anything. So I will not take that. A n omnipotent omniscient and omni benevolent Godhead ought to do better than that.

Of course you can say the very characteristics of omnipotence, omniscience and omni benevolence need not apply to God, in response to that I would then say that that God is not really God, maybe just a very powerful Klingon.

Kuhusu ukweli wa mambo, kuna mtu alisema ukweli wa mambo si tu ni wa ajabu kuliko tunavyofikiri, bali pia ni wa ajabu kuliko tunavyoweza kufikiri.

Mungu tumeweza kumfikiri, tumempima akaonekana amepwaya kwenye vipimo vya ukweli.

Tunahitaji kuchunguza zaidi kuelewa mambo deeply zaidi ya habari za Mungu, angalau huyu Mungu mwenye ujuzi wote, uwezo wote na upendo wote ambaye anaonekana wazi kuwa kuwepo kwake kuna matatizo makubwa sana.

Nimekuomba uniwekee huo unaouita wewe kuwa ni 'ushahidi wa kimantiki'. Vipi, hukuona au umesahau tu?

Halafu, hili si ni suala la imani?

Kwamba mtu unaamini tu kuwa mungu yupo.

Toka lini mambo ya imani yakahitaji ushahidi? Imani na ushahidi wapi na wapi?

Ndiyo, mtu unaweza kuamini kitu au jambo fulani bila ya kuwa na ushahidi na hicho kitu au hilo jambo likawepo kweli au likawa halipo.

Nadhani hata kwenye suala la mungu napo ni vivyo hivyo.