Nyerere: The Man, The Myth and the Legend

[Dua]

This is why I said you better check your facts before; The government never owned ujamaa farms or villages.

There was no forced labour to anybody you better check your facts and differentiate with fiction.

 

[Mkandara]

DrWHO,
Waswahili husema asifiaye Mvua imemnyeshea au sio?..walaaa ndugu yangu sijasema wewe dini gani.
Katika ukurasa uliopita umeyapongeza maoni ya ndugu yetu Augustine kwa mtazamo huo wa nguo ya mwenzako na umesifia. Ndio sababu ya kujaribu kukupa nawe mwanga wa yale nayozungumzia mimi. Niitaendelea kuheshimu mchango wako wenye kina ktk maswala.

Anyway tuachene na haya tuzungumze ya maana zaidi!
Haya, Sokoine na farasi hiyo kali sana!
kumbe haya ya kuiga nje hatukuyaanza hivi karibuni?

 

[JokaKuu]

Dua,
sokoine had his pet-project called nguvu-kazi. the motive was extremely good--" kila mtu mwenye uwezo wa kufanya kazi afanye kazi," but the implimentation was equally WRONG.

sokoine alikuwa akikamata watu wasiokuwa na vitambulisho vya kazi mjini DSM na kuwaswaga kwenda vijiji vya gezaulole, mwananyiratu, na kibugumo. sokoine thought that was the solution to the rising un-employment rate at that time.

i think it was very myopic for sokoine to assume that every un-employed person can be turned into a farmer. i also believe that gezaulole,kibugumo etc, were some kind of gulags? now, what other facts do you want?

 

[Tabasamu]

This is why I said you better check your facts before; The government never owned ujamaa farms or villages.

There was no forced labour to anybody you better check your facts and differentiate with fiction.

Besides kusema Sokoine alianzisha vijiji vya ujamaa ni kupotosha historia. Vijiji vya ujamaa ilikuwa mwanzoni mwa miaka ya sabini sasa Sokoine alianzisha hayo katika capacity ipi?
Hata hivyo bila shaka wazo la vijiji vya ujamaa ni moja ya mambo mazuri kabisa Nyerere kuwa kufikiria hata kama utekelezaji wake ulikuja kushindwa. Leo hii watoto wanatembea km 5 hadi 10 kwenda shule sababu wazazi wao wamerudi huko wanakaoita kwenye mashamba yao. Ukipita vijijini unakutana na nyumba kila baada ya kilomita kadhaa, sasa hawa watu wataweza kupata maji, barabara, zahanati, shule ikiwa wametawanyika namna hiyo?

 

[Jasusi]

jokaKuu,
In the Gulags you were forced to work for the state (forced labour)
Did Sokoine do the same with the forced returnees?

 

[Dua]

jokaKuu

Kwanza kama kweli uko serious jibu haya maswali ili tuendelee na huu mjadala badala ya kurukaruka, nakukumbusha:

Dua
Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 89
Rep Power: 1


jokaKuu

Sokoine alikuwa PM 13 Feb 1977 hadi Nov 1980 alipojiuzulu kutokana na afya yake. Alirudi tena kuwa PM 23 Feb 1983 baada ya kutibiwa hadi Feb 1984 alipofariki kwa ajali.

1. Upeo upi ambao unaongelea?

2. Je ni nani aliamuru bidhaa kutoka nje kuingizwa Tanzania na wafanya biashara ambazo zilikuwa hazipatikani Tanzania kwa wakati ule?

3. Ni nani ambaye alikuwa na ubavu pekee kumweleza mwalimu matatizo ya wakati ule?

4. Sikusema Sokoine alikuwa waziri mkuu bora kuliko wote kwa sababu sina data, hayo ni mawazo yako – kwa vile umeliongelea hilo Je unaweza kuweka data hapa za uchumi wa Tanzania tangu tupate uhuru ili tuweze kulinganisha ni waziri mkuu yupi alikuwa bora?

5. Ni waziri gani mkuu aliyefuata kanuni na misingi ya uendeshaji wa uchumi na ametufikisha wapi?

6. Ni wapi ambapo mwalimu aliona mawazo ya sokoine hayafai? Unaweza kufafanua hili?

7. Mwalimu alisema mwaka 1980 ndio angeachia hatamu lakini baada ya vita ya Uganda aliendelea kwa miaka mingine 5 ya mwisho, sasa ni wapi ambapo mwalimu aliona ameshindwa awaachie wengine? Siye huyu mwalimu aliyeweka mpango wa kikomo kwa viongozi?

Baada ya hapa weka fact zako vizuri ili tujue tunakwenda sambamba.

 

[Game Theory]

This is why I said you better check your facts before; The government never owned ujamaa farms or villages.

There was no forced labour to anybody you better check your facts and differentiate with fiction.

Who brought AZIMIO LA ARUSHA?

what were the policies in Azimio la Arusha?

what do you understand by VIJIJI VYA UJAMAA?

who was the Prime minister during those dark days in the Tanzania's history?

Why not admit that they messed up with people's lives and move on?

Hell, Mwalimu accepeted his failures when he left so why dont you?

 

[Game Theory]

this is where idisagree with socialists who wanted to impose soclialism in a country its people were not ready to be socialists

I mean kwanza kwa uwalazimishe watu kwa nguvu toka kwenye maisha yao na kuwaweka kwenye vijiji vya serikali? this was communism even though they didnt want to say so

Sometimes i ask these socialists on why do you call yourself a socialist instead of a communist? Political correctness? Ideology clash? Or do you simply not agree with communism but aspects of socialism?

 

[Dua]

DrWHO

Azimio la Arusha was the best thing to happen in Tanzania even mwalimu was asked and he said ‘I won't change a single world out of it' – it's true even today we have all this problems of Edward-Richmonduli. The West have their own azimio la Arusha for your information but they call it by other name.

The policies were as above no any leader should use his influence to enrich himself or his friends.

Vijiji vya ujamaa were not GULAGS as you think.

Specify the dark days as I don't remember one.

I can't admit something which you fabricate.

Your last question answered above.

 

[Game Theory]

Dua,
sokoine had his pet-project called nguvu-kazi. the motive was extremely good--" kila mtu mwenye uwezo wa kufanya kazi afanye kazi," but the implimentation was equally WRONG.

sokoine alikuwa akikamata watu wasiokuwa na vitambulisho vya kazi mjini DSM na kuwaswaga kwenda vijiji vya gezaulole, mwananyiratu, na kibugumo. sokoine thought that was the solution to the rising un-employment rate at that time.

i think it was very myopic for sokoine to assume that every un-employed person can be turned into a farmer. i also believe that gezaulole,kibugumo etc, were some kind of gulags? now, what other facts do you want?

Unajua Abedi karime hakusoma lakini sijui aliliona vip hili ndio maana akamwambia Nyerere uwa hilo azimio lenu liiishie huko huko chumbe

Unajua ilikuwa katika vijiji hivyo ulikuwa huruhusiwi kutoka mpaka mjumbe apeleke ombi lako kwa DC,then inaenda kwa RC then huko ndiko kutaamuliwa
kama mheshimiwa DUA anaweza kwenda kumtembelea MZEE ES na huko nako mzee ES inabidi aeleze huyo DUA na DR WHO wanamhusu vipi

this was really dark ages in our history

 

[Dua]

DrWHO

Hakuna mahali ambapo vijiji vingi vya ujamaa vilianzishwa kama mkoa wa Dodoma. Hebu leo hii nenda Dodoma kawaulize kama walipendelea suala hilo au la?

Hakuna Gulags wahatever you call them zilizokuwa zinafanyika kule Tanzania, kuna mambo yalifanyika vibaya kila mtu anakubali TUWEKE FACTS SIYO FICTION

 

[Dua]

DrWHO

Unajua Abedi karime hakusoma lakini sijui aliliona vip hili ndio maana akamwambia Nyerere uwa hilo azimio lenu liiishie huko huko chumbe

Unajua ilikuwa katika vijiji hivyo ulikuwa huruhusiwi kutoka mpaka mjumbe apeleke ombi lako kwa DC,then inaenda kwa RC then huko ndiko kutaamuliwa
kama mheshimiwa DUA anaweza kwenda kumtembelea MZEE ES na huko nako mzee ES inabidi aeleze huyo DUA na DR WHO wanamhusu vipi

this was really dark ages in our history

Sasa huu ndio nasema uswahili mkuu.

 

[JokaKuu]

Jasusi,
watu walikuwa wakikamatwa, wanafungwa mashati kwenye viuno, wanapakiwa kwenye malori kama majunia, na kupelekwa kwenye vijiji vya nguvu kazi. ule ulikuwa ni udhalilishaji.

now, do you think sokoine would only use force in arresting these ppl frm the streets of dsm, but once they reached gezaulole they were free to do whatever they pleased? to me that was forced labour.

Dua,
naona maswali yao umeyatoa kwa hamaki, na hivyo basi hakuna haja ya mimi kuyajibu moja baada ya jingine. pamoja na hayo, jinsi tunavyoendelea kuzungumza taratibu maswali yako yatapata majibu.

Tabasamu,
Vijiji vya ujamaa vilikuwa idea nzuri, lakini utekelezaji wake ulikuwa mbaya. wananchi walipata shida ndiyo maana wakarudi kwenye mashamba yao ya zamani.

hakukuwa na maandalizi ya kutosha. vilevile wengine waliburuzwa toka maeneo waliyoishi kwa muda mrefu, na kubwagwa kwenye mapori makubwa. nguvu ya DOLA zaidi, kuliko nguvu ya USHAWISHI.

sijui kama unaelewa kwamba wako wananchi waliofariki kwa magonjwa na wengine kuliwa na wanyama wakali? hiki ni kilio cha chinichini kinaendelea mikoa ya kusini.

matokeo ya VURUGU za operesheni vijiji, ni kuanguka kwa uzalishaji wa zao la korosho. hilo limekuwa ni pigo kubwa kwa wananchi wa mikoa ya kusini. they have never recovered from that.

 

[JokaKuu]

DrWHO,
Peter Kisumo akiwa mkuu wa mkoa wa kilimanjaro alizuia operesheni vijiji ktk mkoa wake.

 

[Dua]

DrWHO

Nafikiri ni Zanzibar pekee ndio mlikuwa mnaomba ruhusa kwa DC na RC's kwenda sehemu nyingine sio Bara. Jaribu kuuliza wana bodi mimi sikuliona hilo. Kwa hiyo hizo ndio zilikuwa dark ages zenu kule visiwani.

 

[Dua]

jokaKuu

Dua,
naona maswali yao umeyatoa kwa hamaki, na hivyo basi hakuna haja ya mimi kuyajibu moja baada ya jingine. pamoja na hayo, jinsi tunavyoendelea kuzungumza taratibu maswali yako yatapata majibu.

Hakuna hamaki hapa ulitoa hoja na ukajibiwa ki hoja. Kitu unachofanya sasa hivi wenzetu wanasema 'to beat around the bush' Nilikupa hata tarehe ambazo Sokoine was PM kurahisisha FACTS NA SIO FICTION KUMBUKA VIZURI WAKATI SOKOINE ALIPOKUWA PM.

Nimekuelewa kwamba huna backup ya uliyosema nashukuru.

 

[Game Theory]

DrWHO

Azimio la Arusha was the best thing to happen in Tanzania even mwalimu was asked and he said ‘I won’t change a single world out of it’ – it’s true even today we have all this problems of Edward-Richmonduli. The West have their own azimio la Arusha for your information but they call it by other name.

The policies were as above no any leader should use his influence to enrich himself or his friends.

Vijiji vya ujamaa were not GULAGS as you think.

Specify the dark days as I don’t remember one.

I can’t admit something which you fabricate.

Your last question answered above.

But you havent stated on why we had to ditch Socialism for free market economy! for your information we were not a lot of third world countries tried socialism (or something they called socialism) in the 1960s and 1970s after independence. Three cases come to mind - India, Mexico, and (we)Tanzania,

They didn't work out too well. For example India's economy was derided abroad as the "Permit Raj" and slugged along at the "Hindu rate of growth," until a series of liberal reforms started propelling India upwards in the 1980s and 1990s.While Mexico's "Institutional Revolutionary Party" started rolling back central institutions until, amid corruption allegations, they got shown the door in a genuinely free election by Vincente Fox, who offered more radical liberalization.And for us Tanzanians we attempted a pretty genuine system of planning and protectionism until the 1980s, when the ruling party said rather bluntly "This isn't working" and started on a program of liberalization and this was said by none but JK NYERERE

 

[Game Theory]

DrWHO

Nafikiri ni Zanzibar pekee ndio mlikuwa mnaomba ruhusa kwa DC na RC's kwenda sehemu nyingine sio Bara. Jaribu kuuliza wana bodi mimi sikuliona hilo. Kwa hiyo hizo ndio zilikuwa dark ages zenu kule visiwani.

Haya tena naona unaendelea kuTWIST mambo humu

wapi nilijitambulisha kama Mzanzibari? au Mtu wa visiwani

vipi?

 

[William J. Malecela]

Mzee Wooooooh!

Hivi unajua kuwa kuna waziri katika serikali yako ya bongo ambaye bado ni muajiriwa kule Botswana? Je umewahi kusikia waziri wa Botswana aliyeajiriwa bongo?

Swali langu ni kwamba kwa nini Mwalimu the great alikuwa amezengukwa na wasaniii kina Mwinyi, Mkapa na sasa JK, bila ya yeye the great kujua? FULL STOP?

 

[Game Theory]

Na Malecelela alionekana kuwa ana Mmabo ya kizungu mnoooo

uslama wa taifa walikuwa wanasikiliza simu zake aliporudi pale Dar toka UK

JM simu zake mara anaongea na Dule of York,mara anaongea na Lady nani sijui,mara kesho kapigiwa simu na Lord nani sijui...Mwalimu kuona hivyo anaona eheeeee hili balaaa jamaa ataja uza nchi kwa waingereza kama Njonjo na JM Kariuki Kule Kenya


Hao wa Botswana kama wameridhia walipa kodi wao kumlipa jamaa pesa then thats fine