Mungu kwenye nyimbo ya Taifa WHY?

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

swali mnalolikwepa ni kwanini Watanzania waruhusiwe kuwa na dini wakati dini ni kitu kinachozua maendeleo kwa kiasi kikubwa? Badala ya kuulalamikia wimbo wa Taifa la msingi ni kwenda Chinese way, futeni dini, na kama kuna watu wanataka "kuabudu" basi waabudu katika misikiti na makanisa yenye kusimamiwa na serikali na vitabu vyao (Biblia na Qurani n.k) vipitiwe kwanza kuona kama kuna jambo lolote linalohatarisha usalama wa Taifa.

Tukishafuta dini kwenye mawazo ya watu na maisha yao ndipo hapo tutaweza kuondoa vitu kama "Mungu" kwenye wimbo wa Taifa n.k Sasa as long as watu wanaamini Mungu na wao wameamua na kukubali kuwa neno Mungu litumike kwenye wimbo wao wa Taifa ni juhudi ya bure kuulalamikia kwani wimbo huo unaakisi tu matamanio na hisia za watu.

Kama tatizo ni kuwataka watoto wauuimbe n.k hiyo ni hoja nyingine kwani kwanini watoto wasiotaka kuimba wasikilizwe na wale wanaotaka waimbe wasisikilizwe? Kama kuna atheist hataki kuimba si asiimbe na wala asiadhibiwe lakini kwanini tumzuie mwenye imani ya Mungu kuuimba wimbo huo?

Kama watu hawataki kumtaja Mungu isiishie kwenye wimbo wa Taifa bali iende hadi kwenye kiini chake nacho ni uwepo katika jamii wachungaji, mashehe, wainjilisti n.k ambao wanafundisha watu mambo ya dini. Muwafungie hawa kwanza, fungeni misikiti na makanisa n.k ili twende real secular. CHukueni Biblia, Qurani na vitabu vingine vyenye dodoso ya kidini vitieni moto, na wanaokaidi watieni pingu hadi muhakikishe kuwa Tanzania is a true secular state.

Otherwise, hoja nzima is totally absurd, it is based on a flawed proposition and it emerges from an obvious and clear fountain of intellectual arrogance of the first kind.

 

[Pundit]

Dude,relax!
That was meant for Eeka.

You shoulda use the PM feature.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Hivi ni kweli watoto wanalazimishwa kuimba wimbo wa taifa? Maana nimekaa najiuliza kama wale wanaofunga midomo yao wakati wengine wakiimba kama huadhibiwa?

 

[Pundit]

Can you provide examples of such....?

You, seriously.

 

[Pundit]

Mpaka kufikia ukarasa wa 11 n.k sijapata mwelekeo wa thread.

1. Maana naona kana kwamba hoja kubwa ilikuwa ni kwa nini kuna M/Mungu kwenye wimbo wa taifa ..


2. Lakini 'wakulu' hawakuishia hapo, bali wakafikia hatua ya kucontest uwepo wa M/Mungu.


3. Baada ya kufaulu 1) na 2) 'wakulu' hawa wakaenda mpaka kudispute uwezo wa M/Mungu na sifa zake.

Mpaka hapa nimeshindwa kuchangia kwa sababu hoja nilizoziweka hapa peke yake, ukiziweka pamoja zinakuwa illogical regardless premises za kila moja ni za kweli au zina mashaka..


Nways, labda nitoe tu maoni tu kama ifuatavyo:

Ili kuweza kumscrutinize Muumbaji you should be in the same level kama Yeye au kuzidi ili kweli ujiaminishe kwamba wafahamu unachofanya. Kinyume cha hapo, itakuwa ni kusherehesha baraza huku ukikufuru.


Naomba tumwache Mungu aendelee kuitwa Mungu..


Your brother in Christ,


Abdulhaleem al Masih

Obviously, kama inaweza kuwa established kwamba mungu hayupo, then case ya kwamba mungu aimbwe au asiimbwe katika wimbo wa taifa, kwa kuombwa aibariki Tanzania inakuwa rahisi zaidi.Huwezi kuomba mungu akubariki wakati huyo mungu hayupo.

In disputing the existence of god, the issue of god in the national anthem is settled for good by a shattering of it's main premises, that there exists a god that can bestow the so called baraka.If you want a logical explanation there you have it.

And speaking of logic, this omnipotent omniscient god does not stand the test of simple Euclidean Geometry, let alone logic!

Huhitaji kuwa na complexity ya system inayokuwa propounded kuwepo ili kuweza kuikubali au kuikataa.

Kwa mfano, tunaweza ku deduce from the second law of thermodynamics kwamba in our universe, under the existing laws of physics, the entropy of any closed system will incerase with time.

So no matter how complex a godhead is, if one is to follow logic as you so rightly advocated, rationality and scientific thought the notion that the godhead is so complex does not excuse him from scrutiny.

In order to know that god is so complex you have to know that he exist.If you cannot defend his existence, the argument of complexity is just another way of saying "god works in mysterious ways" which I successfully and completely disputed to smithereens earlier.

The Universe is waaay more complex than we can understand, but that does not stop people from studying it and making all sorts of sound conclusions.

If god is so complex to trully know that he does not exist, because we do not have the brainpower to comprehend him, how can you with roughly the same brain power like us know he exist?

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

You, seriously.

Me, how??????????

 

[Pundit]

swali mnalolikwepa ni kwanini Watanzania waruhusiwe kuwa na dini wakati dini ni kitu kinachozua maendeleo kwa kiasi kikubwa? Badala ya kuulalamikia wimbo wa Taifa la msingi ni kwenda Chinese way, futeni dini, na kama kuna watu wanataka "kuabudu" basi waabudu katika misikiti na makanisa yenye kusimamiwa na serikali na vitabu vyao (Biblia na Qurani n.k) vipitiwe kwanza kuona kama kuna jambo lolote linalohatarisha usalama wa Taifa.

Tukishafuta dini kwenye mawazo ya watu na maisha yao ndipo hapo tutaweza kuondoa vitu kama "Mungu" kwenye wimbo wa Taifa n.k Sasa as long as watu wanaamini Mungu na wao wameamua na kukubali kuwa neno Mungu litumike kwenye wimbo wao wa Taifa ni juhudi ya bure kuulalamikia kwani wimbo huo unaakisi tu matamanio na hisia za watu.

Kama tatizo ni kuwataka watoto wauuimbe n.k hiyo ni hoja nyingine kwani kwanini watoto wasiotaka kuimba wasikilizwe na wale wanaotaka waimbe wasisikilizwe? Kama kuna atheist hataki kuimba si asiimbe na wala asiadhibiwe lakini kwanini tumzuie mwenye imani ya Mungu kuuimba wimbo huo?

Kama watu hawataki kumtaja Mungu isiishie kwenye wimbo wa Taifa bali iende hadi kwenye kiini chake nacho ni uwepo katika jamii wachungaji, mashehe, wainjilisti n.k ambao wanafundisha watu mambo ya dini. Muwafungie hawa kwanza, fungeni misikiti na makanisa n.k ili twende real secular. CHukueni Biblia, Qurani na vitabu vingine vyenye dodoso ya kidini vitieni moto, na wanaokaidi watieni pingu hadi muhakikishe kuwa Tanzania is a true secular state.

Otherwise, hoja nzima is totally absurd, it is based on a flawed proposition and it emerges from an obvious and clear fountain of intellectual arrogance of the first kind.

Watanzania hawawezi kuzuiwa kuwa na dini, as long as dini zao hazivunji sheria (remember Kibwetere?).This is a matter of civil liberty and human rights.Mtu ana uhuru wa kufanya anachotaka, hata kama wengine wanaamini kuwa yuko wrong, mradi asiwaingilie wengine.

Tatizo ni kuwa ukishaingiza swala la mungu katika wimbo wa taifa, unawashurutisha wote, wanaoamini kuwepo kwa mungu na wasioamini kuwepo kwa mungu waimbe wimbo wa taifa unaomuomba mungu.This is unconstitutional, kwa sababu constitution inatoa uhuru wa kuabudu, uhuru wa kuabudu by negation una include uhuru wa kutoabudu, ukishamuweka mungu katika wimbo wa taifa umemshurutisha mwanamichezo, mwanafunzi, mwanajeshi na watu wengine weengi wanaolazimika kuimba wimbo huu kuabudu kitu asichokiamini.

Watu ni nani? Si ndio sisi? Kwa hiyo siyo kweli kwamba watu wote wamekubali kuwa na mungu katika wimbo wa taifa, walikaa kikao gani?

Swala la "kama kuna atheist asiyetaka kuimba asiimbe" ni sawa na mama kuwapikia samaki watoto wake kumi huku anajua kuwa mmoja ana allergy na samaki, hawezi kula, na kumwambia "Kama una allergy na samaki usile" sasa huyu atakula wapi? the fact kwamba yeye ni minority haimuondolei haki ya kula. Tulivyoleta multy party system allegedly waliotaka multy party hawakuwa wengi kama wale waliotaka single party, lakini serikali in all it's IMF /Perestroika/ Mapalala forced benevolency ikaamua kuwa grant wish yao minority.Kwa sababu, kwa ku grant wish ya minority, majority waliweza kuendelea ku exercise uanachama wao wa CCM.

Vivyo hivyo, kama suala ni kuimba wimbo wa taifa, minority wapewe matakwa yao ya kuondoa neno mungu, na majority (kama ni majority kweli, hakuna survey) wataendelea kuimba wimbo wa taifa bila kumtaja mungu.Wakitaka kumtaja mungu wataenda kanisani na majumbani mwao wataweza ku exercise their constitutional right to worship.

Huwezi kutaka maskofu na masheikh wafungiwe, hii itakuwa an unconstitutional breach of civil liberty and human rights. Ila pia huwezi kuwa shove hawa watu kwenye shule na ofisini kwa kila mtu. Kama vile tulivyo na sehemu zenye "No Smoking" tunatakiwa tuwe na sehemu zilizo off limit to religin ziwe na "No Religion" or better yet "No Religiosity". Wimbo wa taifa is one of these areas.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Watanzania hawawezi kuzuiliwa kuwa na dini, as long as dini zao hazivunji sheria.This is a matter of civil liberty and human rights.Mtu ana uhuru wa kufanya anachotaka, hata kama wengine wanaamini kuwa yuko wrong, mradi asiwaingilie wengine.

Tatizo ni kuwa ukishaingiza swala la mungu katika wimbo wa taifa, unawashurutisha wote, wanaoamini kuwepo kwa mungu na wasioamini kuwepo kwa mungu waimbe wimbo wa taifa unaomuomba mungu.This is unconstitutional, kwa sababu constitution inatoa uhuru wa kuabudu, uhuru wa kuabudu by negation una include uhuru wa kutoabudu, ukishamuweka mungu katika wimbo wa taifa umemshurutisha mwanamichezo, mwanafunzi, mwanajeshi na watu wengine weengi wanaolazimika kuimba wimbo huu kuabudu kitu asichokiamini.

Watu ni nani? Si ndio sisi? Kwa hiyo siyo kweli kwamba watu wote wamekubali kuwa na mungu katika wimbo wa taifa, walikaa kikao gani?

Swala la "kama kuna atheist asiyetaka kuimba asiimbe" ni sawa na mama kuwapikia samaki watoto wake kumi huku anajua kuwa mmoja ana allergy na samaki, hawezi kula, na kumwambia "Kama una allergy na samaki usile" sasa huyu atakula wapi? the fact kwamba yeye ni minority haimuondolei haki ya kula. Tulivyoleta multy party system allegedly waliotaka multy party hawakuwa wengi kama wale waliotaka single party, lakini serikali in all it's IMF /Perestroika/ Mapalala forced benevolency ikaamua kuwa grant wish yao minority.Kwa sababu, kwa ku grant wish ya minority, majority waliweza kuendelea ku exercise uanachama wao wa CCM.

Vivyo hivyo, kama suala ni kuimba wimbo wa taifa, minority wapewe matakwa yao ya kuondoa neno mungu, na majority (kama ni majority kweli, hakuna survey) wataendelea kuimba wimbo wa taifa bila kumtaja mungu.Wakitaka kumtaja mungu wataenda kanisani na majumbani mwao wataweza ku exercise their constitutional right to worship.

Huwezi kutaka maskofu na masheikh wafungiwe, hii itakuwa an unconstitutional breach of civil liberty and human rights. Ila pia huwezi kuwa shove hawa watu kwenye shule na ofisini kwa kila mtu. Kama vile tulivyo na sehemu zenye "No Smoking" tunatakiwa tuwe na sehemu zilizo off limit to religin ziwe na "No Religion" or better yet "No Religiosity". Wimbo wa taifa is one of these areas.

How about having two or however many national anthems to accomodate everyone, believers, non-believers, atheists, agnostics....you name it....what do you think?

 

[Pundit]

How about having two or however many national anthems to accomodate everyone, believers, non-believers, atheists, agnostics....you name it....what do you think?

Thats like saying how about having two or however many nations/ countries in Tanzania to accommodate the different groups. Unles you mean as in segregating the country into regions/ different countries (atheist/ believers etc etc) this would not go anywehere.

And it gets more complicated, what will happen when the smokers will decide they want their own country, where they can smoke anywhere, are you going to give them their country?

One country, one national anthem, no god mentioned.

 

[Steve Dii]

Thats like saying how about having two or however many nations/ countries in Tanzania to accommodate the different groups. Unles you mean as in segregating the country into regions/ different countries (atheist/ believers etc etc) this would not go anywehere.

And it gets more complicated, what will happen when the smokers will decide they want their own country, where they can smoke anywhere, are you going to give them their country?

One country, one national anthem, no god mentioned.

...There we go, finally "wengi wape" imeeleweka!

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Thats like saying how about having two or however many nations/ countries in Tanzania to accommodate the different groups. Unles you mean as in segregating the country into regions/ different countries (atheist/ believers etc etc) this would not go anywehere.

And it gets more complicated, what will happen when the smokers will decide they want their own country, where they can smoke anywhere, are you going to give them their country?

One country, one national anthem, no god mentioned.

You're like a kid whose toy has been taken away....

Okay...one country, one anthem, no God mentioned....are you happy now?

 

[Steve Dii]

Sizitaki mbichi hizi.........
Wabongo bwana.... wamebondea wee thread hii, lakini bado wapo tuu. Miye nitaendelea kuchangia na kuisoma kila nitakapopata muda, wala siboreki na sitaikandiya...katu katu katu!! 🙂

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Sizitaki mbichi hizi.........
Wabongo bwana.... wamebondea wee thread hii, lakini bado wapo tuu. Miye nitaendelea kuchangia na kuisoma kila nitakapopata muda, wala siboreki na sitaikandiya...katu katu katu!! 🙂

Kalale wewe......

 

[Pundit]

You're like a kid whose toy has been taken away....

Okay...one country, one anthem, no God mentioned....are you happy now?

If you thought the object of this sober -and sometimes admittedly swayed- exchange, at least on my part, was the acquisition of some ego inflating brownie points, your perceptive faculties could not have flunged you further from the truth.

These are some very necessary questions.Only the brave can even attempt to shoulder the tradition shattering and deeply revealing nature of these introspectives.I am positive everyone soliloquizes about these grand questions of existence, the trouble is not all are courageous or rational to accept the ugly truth.

I would have preffered the universe to be as simpler as it is propagated by the religiosity camp, that there is a god who takes care of everything and all you have to do is live right and pray and you will go to heaven and get all the goodies and live eternally in peace.Unfortunately this is more in the realm of mythologies and ancient tribal rituals than reality.

The Road To Reality is paved with difficult questions, some not known, some unknowable, some so absurd to defy the simplicity of a godhead idea. the Swahili said "Ukishangaa ya Musa uataona ya (Tusi)(Tusi)(Tusi)(Tusi)uni", If you thought god works in mysterious ways, try quantum physics.

 

[Mama]

Taratibu jamani, Mungu tusiendelee kumdhihaki jamani, ni huruma yake tu inaendelea kuruhusu haya kuendelea. Please God, forgive for everything that is said, written or thought that is not pleasing to you. Let is one of us know that there is no circumstance, problem or situation that is greater than you God.

 

[Abdulhalim]

Obviously, kama inaweza kuwa established kwamba mungu hayupo, then case ya kwamba mungu aimbwe au asiimbwe katika wimbo wa taifa, kwa kuombwa aibariki Tanzania inakuwa rahisi zaidi.Huwezi kuomba mungu akubariki wakati huyo mungu hayupo.

In disputing the existence of god, the issue of god in the national anthem is settled for good by a shattering of it's main premises, that there exists a god that can bestow the so called baraka.If you want a logical explanation there you have it.


And speaking of logic, this omnipotent omniscient god does not stand the test of simple Euclidean Geometry, let alone logic!

Huhitaji kuwa na complexity ya system inayokuwa propounded kuwepo ili kuweza kuikubali au kuikataa.

Kwa mfano, tunaweza ku deduce from the second law of thermodynamics kwamba in our universe, under the existing laws of physics, the entropy of any closed system will incerase with time.

So no matter how complex a godhead is, if one is to follow logic as you so rightly advocated, rationality and scientific thought the notion that the godhead is so complex does not excuse him from scrutiny.

In order to know that god is so complex you have to know that he exist.If you cannot defend his existence, the argument of complexity is just another way of saying "god works in mysterious ways" which I successfully and completely disputed to smithereens earlier.

The Universe is waaay more complex than we can understand, but that does not stop people from studying it and making all sorts of sound conclusions.

If god is so complex to trully know that he does not exist, because we do not have the brainpower to comprehend him, how can you with roughly the same brain power like us know he exist?

Bw. Pundit,

Nadhani nina muda mchache wa kuzungumzia hoja zako hivyo sitaenda neno kwa neno. Mchango wangu ni kama ifuatavyo:

1. Nakubaliana nawe kuwa suala la kumtaja M/Mungu kwenye wimbo wa taifa ni secondary, la kwanza linalotakwa ni uwepo wa M/Mungu. Hoja yangu nasisitiza hapa kama nilivyosema awali, ili mja aweze kudispute sifa za M/Mungu inabidi kwenye kuwepo na makubaliano kwamba yupo. Hapo ndipo tunaweza kuongelea habari ya omnipotent, all knower, all knowledgeable VS huma freewill. Bila ya kuwa na platform hii, hakuwezi kuwa na muafaka kwani atakayekuwa ana-dispute uweza wa M/Mungu atatumia hoja za uwepo wa M/Mungu, na hapo zoezi litaendelea on-and-on.

2. Pia umetaja kuwa M/Mungu anafeli simple Eucledian Geometry seuze logical test (allegation). Sidhani kama nna msaada mkubwa sana kwako ktk hili. Maana nilishatahadharisha toka posting yangu ya awali kuwa kama unataka kumscrutinize M/Mungu you should be at least in same level as Him. Hapo umejaribu kulinganisha na complex physical phenomenon, I think the two are queit different. Na pia umesema kuwa God's complexity does n't exclude Him from scrutiny, I guess you are right, but kama nilivyosema, provided God exists it is logical to say hakuna bin'adamu mwenye total capacity na tools za kum-scrutinize Muumba wake na kufanya any meaningful probe, hivyo his effort will lead into futility.

Kwa kuongezea, kuhusiana na logic unayodhani ni kila kitu..Chukua mfano wa argument hii.

i. A is less than B,
ii. B is less than C ,
iii. then A should be less than C

This argument is completely logical when looked at its nature. But this logical argument is NOT necessarily true..and it is even fallacious at some conditions. Thats means sometimes you may find illogical arguments to be true too.

Therefore applying uncertain convention of 'human logic' to test Almighty is basically laughable and faulty. The idea of applying 'test' to God is very loose to me. Our Creator deserves better than that because he deserves it.



God is my shepherd,


Abdulhaleem al Masih

 

[Pundit]

Taratibu jamani, Mungu tusiendelee kumdhihaki jamani, ni huruma yake tu inaendelea kuruhusu haya kuendelea. Please God, forgive for everything that is said, written or thought that is not pleasing to you. Let is one of us know that there is no circumstance, problem or situation that is greater than you God.

Concept ya kumdhihaki mungu inakosa uzito kama mungu anayedhihakika anaweza kuonyeshwa kwamba hayupo.

I would think the creator of the universe would be too big to bother about my dhihaka, that would make him and my esteemed friend, the gentleman who goes by the handler Nyani McCain about equals.

Mungu si Athumani, Si Nyani McCain pia, in fact, si chochote.

I could give him five minutes to strike me dead if he is out there, but I know he is not, so I won't bother.

 

[Pundit]

Bw. Pundit,

Nadhani nina muda mchache wa kuzungumzia hoja zako hivyo sitaenda neno kwa neno. Mchango wangu ni kama ifuatavyo:

1. Nakubaliana nawe kuwa suala la kumtaja M/Mungu kwenye wimbo wa taifa ni secondary, la kwanza linalotakwa ni uwepo wa M/Mungu. Hoja yangu nasisitiza hapa kama nilivyosema awali, ili mja aweze kudispute sifa za M/Mungu inabidi kwenye kuwepo na makubaliano kwamba yupo. Hapo ndipo tunaweza kuongelea habari ya omnipotent, all knower, all knowledgeable VS huma freewill. Bila ya kuwa na platform hii, hakuwezi kuwa na muafaka kwani atakayekuwa ana-dispute uweza wa M/Mungu atatumia hoja za uwepo wa M/Mungu, na hapo zoezi litaendelea on-and-on.

2. Pia umetaja kuwa M/Mungu anafeli simple Eucledian Geometry seuze logical test (allegation). Sidhani kama nna msaada mkubwa sana kwako ktk hili. Maana nilishatahadharisha toka posting yangu ya awali kuwa kama unataka kumscrutinize M/Mungu you should be at least in same level as him. Hapo umejaribu kulinganisha na complex physical phenomenon, I think the two are queit different. Na pia umesema kuwa God's complexity does n't exclude Him from scrutiny, I guess you are right, but kama nilivyosema, provided God exists it is logical to say hakuna bin'adamu mwenye total capacity na tools za kum-scrutinize Muumba wake na kufanya any meaningful probe, hivyo his effort will lead into futility.

Kwa kuongezea, kuhusiana na logic unayodhani ni kila kitu..Chukua mfano wa argument hii.

i. A is less than B,
ii. B is less than C ,
iii. then A should be less than C

This argument is completely logical when looked at its nature. But this logical argument is NOT necessarily true..and it is even fallacious at some conditions. Thats means sometimes you may find illogical arguments to be true too.

Therefore applying uncertain convention of 'human logic' to test Almighty is basically laughable and faulty. The idea of applying 'test' to God is very loose to me. Our Creator deserves better than than because he deserves it.



God is my shepherd,


Abdulhaleem al Masih

Kama unataka kum scrutinize The Tooth fairy inabidi uwe katika level yake.

Kama unataka kum scrutinize Santa Claus inabidi uwe katika level yake

Kama unataka kum scrutinize Loch Ness Monster inabidi uwe katika level yake.

Kama unataka kum scrutinize the man whose face is seen on the moon inabidi uwe katika level yake.

Kwa sababu huko katika level zao,

The Tooth Fairy exists

Santa Claus exists

The Loch Ness Monster exists

The Man on the Moon exists

How about that?

 

[Mama]

Concept ya kumdhihaki mungu inakosa uzito kama mungu anayedhihakika anaweza kuonyeshwa kwamba hayupo.

I would think the creator of the universe would be too big to bother about my dhihaka, that would make him and my esteemed friend, the gentleman who goes by the handler Nyani McCain about equals.

Mungu si Athumani, Si Nyani McCain pia, in fact, si chochote.

I could give him five minutes to strike me dead if he is out there, but I know he is not, so I won't bother.

I know Mungu is not Mctongue either. But you are now beyond the limits, dhihakayo inafata exponential equation, slow down brothersister you are in a wrong direction.

 

[Pundit]

I know Mungu is not Mctongue either. But umefika you are beyond the limits, dhihaka ifata exponential equation, slow down brothersister you are in a wrong direction.

Between believing in something that does not exist, just from tradition, and disputing that belief, which is the wrong direction?