Mungu kwenye nyimbo ya Taifa WHY?

[Abdulhalim]

Wimbo wa Taifa umetoka kwenye kitabu kinachoitwa "sala ndogo za kanisa" kitabu cha kikatoliki kwenye ukurasa wake wa 22 na ndio kitabu kilichotoa sala ya bunge. Sasa hapo haihitaji degree kujua Mungu alyetajwa kwenye wimbo wa Taifa ni wakiislamu au kikristo!

enhe, subiri hapohapo,

Hii sehemu ya mwisho, niliyoibold ni nyeti sana.. sasa naomba uwaambie wasilamu wenzako kuhusu huu wahyi mpya.. maana wahyi huu mpya ni muhimu sana kwa ndg zako wasilamu.


Takbir..

 

[Pundit]

Unaona sasa, watakuja waislamu kusema ni mungu wa kikristo, watakuja wakristo kusema ni mungu wa kiislamu, watakuja wakristo kusema ni mungu wa kikristo, watakuja waislamu kusema mungu wa kiislamu, watakuja wahindi kusema miungu yao milioni 66 haijatajwa, basi vurugu tupu!

Solution mtoe mungu kabisa.

 

[KipimaPembe]

The qestion of GOD exist and does not exist is simply a waste of time because here people argue by heart! Existence .... what is existence? before saying god exist or does not we need to define existence first otherwise it will be argue and counter argue because everybody has hardwired beliefs about what they accept as reality.

If by existence we mean physical manifestation which can be measured and quantified ..... the whole question of god becomes immaterial because there is no phyisical dimensions that can be attributed to GOD. Those who say then that there is a "super natural force" don't know what they are saying. Force has physical manifestation can be measured and quantized. Let them say super natural, they will be talking of something super and natural (but not force - GOD in any way cannot be likened to force because force is measurable). All books and evidence about GOD DO NOT TALK OF SUPERNATURAL FORCE AS GOD. so this is not acceptable!

If by existence we mean anything that can be brought into our conscious thinking, then GOD exists because people (at least some people) have that room for god in their locus of thinking. The term to use then will be relative existance. With this kind of existence GOD (or what ever name applies to similar concept) existence is subject to belief and thence need no proof. There are various attempts that can be found in the ancient books to prove existence of god. But common to all books and sages is that GOD'S EXISTENCE IS RELATIVE. Remember relativity?

Now back to the subject of god being mentioned in the national anthem. I think this is simply cultural more than religious and since our culture over the years was shaped by religions (both tradional and colonial) then we can either accept the innevitable (invocation of god's) or wait until the culture matures to a point where god becomes incognito. By then things like national anthems, flags, and similar symbolism (all have ancient connections) will be things of the past.

Discussing GOD today is likely going to be a non-productve, irrerevant and absurd topic. We will be arguing in different dimension thus no conclussive evidence can convince both groups; pro and con.

 

[MaxShimba]

Define to me the law of logic. I want a proof from ALL Atheists that GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

ATHEIST DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD, THEN FOWARD TO ME WRITTEN EXIBITS TO SUPPORT YOUR BOGUS CLAIM THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. STOP BLAH BLAH, I NEED EXIBITS FROM YOU ATHEISTS THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

You Athiests are the ones who don't belive in GOD, then prove it to me. I NEED ALL ATHIESTS TO PROVE TO ME THAT GOD DOES NOT EXISTS.

Max Shimba, hakuna ETHIEST anayeweza kujibu hilo swali lako, jamaa hawa ni wafuata mkumbo. GT aliyejitangaza kuwa yeye na nduguye ni ma Ethiest, hivi sasa hajulikani alipo, na hana jibu na hatokuwa na jibu, mpaka siku ya kufa kwake atakapokuna na aliye Muumba.

Unachotakiwa ni kuwasamehe kwa sababu ya upungufu wa kufikiria kwao na ufuataji mkumbo.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Unaona sasa, watakuja waislamu kusema ni mungu wa kikristo, watakuja wakristo kusema ni mungu wa kiislamu, watakuja wakristo kusema ni mungu wa kikristo, watakuja waislamu kusema mungu wa kiislamu, watakuja wahindi kusema miungu yao milioni 66 haijatajwa, basi vurugu tupu!

Solution mtoe mungu kabisa.

No........................

 

[Magobe T]

Wimbo wa Taifa umetoka kwenye kitabu kinachoitwa "sala ndogo za kanisa" kitabu cha kikatoliki kwenye ukurasa wake wa 22 na ndio kitabu kilichotoa sala ya bunge. Sasa hapo haihitaji degree kujua Mungu alyetajwa kwenye wimbo wa Taifa ni wakiislamu au kikristo!

Mungu anayetajwa ni mmoja na haiwezekani watu wote wakataja Mungu kwa muda uleule ili awe Mungu wa wote. Mimi sioni kama Mungu huyo aliyetajwa anaegemea upande fulani (mfano Ukristo). Hata dini au falsafa zote za humu duniani zilitoka kwa mtu fulani alieyeanzisha 'notion' fulani ya dini au falsafa ingawa zimeboreshwa 'overtime' na watu mbalimbali. Au pengine sikuelewa hoja yako?

 

[Pundit]

The qestion of GOD exist and does not exist is simply a waste of time because here people argue by heart! Existence .... what is existence? before saying god exist or does not we need to define existence first otherwise it will be argue and counter argue because everybody has hardwired beliefs about what they accept as reality.

I will adisagree with the waste of time bit, you must have a sliver of confidence in it not being totally a waste of time, otherwise you like to waste your time in this futile endeavor.I bet you know it is not such a waste of time and that's why you are engaging yourself in here.But I am following your interesting thought process and honest open mindedness.

If by existence we mean physical manifestation which can be measured and quantified ..... the whole question of god becomes immaterial because there is no phyisical dimensions that can be attributed to GOD. Those who say then that there is a "super natural force" don't know what they are saying. Force has physical manifestation can be measured and quantized. Let them say super natural, they will be talking of something super and natural (but not force - GOD in any way cannot be likened to force because force is measurable). All books and evidence about GOD DO NOT TALK OF SUPERNATURAL FORCE AS GOD. so this is not acceptable!.

Makini.

If by existence we mean anything that can be brought into our conscious thinking, then GOD exists because people (at least some people) have that room for god in their locus of thinking. The term to use then will be relative existance. With this kind of existence GOD (or what ever name applies to similar concept) existence is subject to belief and thence need no proof. There are various attempts that can be found in the ancient books to prove existence of god. But common to all books and sages is that GOD'S EXISTENCE IS RELATIVE. Remember relativity?

And by following similar thought process, your imaginary friend of old exists, the tooth fairy exists, James Bond exists, the man on the moon exists, an Euclidean geometry triangle with more than 180 degrees exists, speeds defying the relativistic limit of c exists, the nonexistence of the planet earth and all it's inhabitants exists.

If all you have to do to qualify something as existing is conceptualize it, then you will arrive at a paradox.

We can conceptualize our own non existence from the negation of our existence, so our non existence exists, but clearly we exist and there is an inherrent fallacy lying in this conundrum of illogic!

So we need to do much more than just conceptualize to actually qualify something as existing.

Now back to the subject of god being mentioned in the national anthem. I think this is simply cultural more than religious and since our culture over the years was shaped by religions (both tradional and colonial) then we can either accept the innevitable (invocation of god's) or wait until the culture matures to a point where god becomes incognito. By then things like national anthems, flags, and similar symbolism (all have ancient connections) will be things of the past.

Very enlightened thoughts. I was thinking about this same thing yesterday.That not only Tanzanians, but humans in general, will need time to face the truth.What we are doing here is simply catalyzing the speed of this reaction. Londoners are already organizing a campaign to put ads on buses saying "There is probably no god, so enjoy your life"

See the AP article here Atheists' bus ad campaign hasn't a prayer, just cash

So we have to start somewhere.If a society as formally educated as America cannot get rid of "In God We Trust" on their dollar, a medieval relic of masonic and Christian rituals, Tanzania's rational thinkers have an even bigger job cut out for them.But shying away from telling the rational thinkers side will only prolong the untruths.

Discussing GOD today is likely going to be a non-productve, irrerevant and absurd topic. We will be arguing in different dimension thus no conclussive evidence can convince both groups; pro and con.

To the contrary, this is a slow but moving process of enlightening people to think rationally instead of emotionally. The more we discuss these issues the more peole become aware of how medieval the entire god idea is.

 

[Pundit]

Max Shimba, hakuna ETHIEST anayeweza kujibu hilo swali lako, jamaa hawa ni wafuata mkumbo. GT aliyejitangaza kuwa yeye na nduguye ni ma Ethiest, hivi sasa hajulikani alipo, na hana jibu na hatokuwa na jibu, mpaka siku ya kufa kwake atakapokuna na aliye Muumba.

Unachotakiwa ni kuwasamehe kwa sababu ya upungufu wa kufikiria kwao na ufuataji mkumbo.

First, a minor correction kwa mtu aliyeona upungufu wa kufikiri wa wenzie lakini yeye hajui ku spell. While that may not be sufficient to discern the veracity of readership and scholarship of the poster, and thence help gauge the quality of the post, as a rule of thumb informed people who want to discuss theological concepts and ways of life at the very least should be able to spell the concepts and ways of life.

Ethiest is not a word, the word is Atheist.

God does not exist not because he is not measurable (as in human technology is currently not able to measure his force, but with time and advancement we will be able to measure him just like we will be able to detect the Higgs Boson particle at the CERN particle accelerator) . But because his nature is supposed to be immeasurable.

Anything that is immeasurable has no right to claim existence. Does the number infinity exist? No, because it is immeasurable.It is a mathematical concept employed to work with numbers. God, like infinity is a concept, is not a real entity.In this context the concept of infinity is much more meaningful than the concept of god because it is actually useful and in some instances we cannot do without.But God we can toss aside and like Laplace say "We have no need for that hypothesis"

What Atheist have over believers and can point to, by logical thinking, is the probable nonexistence of a personal god, the one you can pray to and who can listen to your prayer.

The one who knew your entire life and your children's lives before the earth was created, and having known this absolute line of course, in essence sealed it from alterations (because if he knew you would do A and you went and escaped doing A, he would not be all knowing). So he knows everything, even before it happens.

This is essentially predestination. And predestination is not compatible with freewill.

But yet the Judeo-Christian god claims to encompass both, predestination and freewill.He want to eat his cake and have it too.

Sorry god, not to me.

 

[Masatu]

Mimi mnadhani tuweke petition kui lazimisha serikali ipeleke muswada wa kubadilsha wimbo wa taifa

 

[Magobe T]

I will adisagree with the waste of time bit, you must have a sliver of confidence in it not being totally a waste of time, otherwise you like to waste your time in this futile endeavor.I bet you know it is not such a waste of time and that's why you are engaging yourself in here.But I am following your interesting thought process and honest open mindedness.




Makini.




And by following similar thought process, your imaginary friend of old exists, the tooth fairy exists, James Bond exists, the man on the moon exists, an Euclidean geometry triangle with more than 180 degrees exists, speeds defying the relativistic limit of c exists, the nonexistence of the planet earth and all it's inhabitants exists.

If all you have to do to qualify something as existing is conceptualize it, then you will arrive at a paradox.

We can conceptualize our own non existence from the negation of our existence, so our non existence exists, but clearly we exist and there is an inherrent fallacy lying in this conundrum of illogic!

So we need to do much more than just conceptualize to actually qualify something as existing.




Very enlightened thoughts. I was thinking about this same thing yesterday.That not only Tanzanians, but humans in general, will need time to face the truth.What we are doing here is simply catalyzing the speed of this reaction. Londoners are already organizing a campaign to put ads on buses saying "There is probably no god, so enjoy your life"

See the AP article here Atheists' bus ad campaign hasn't a prayer, just cash

So we have to start somewhere.If a society as formally educated as America cannot get rid of "In God We Trust" on their dollar, a medieval relic of masonic and Christian rituals, Tanzania's rational thinkers have an even bigger job cut out for them.But shying away from telling the rational thinkers side will only prolong the untruths.



To the contrary, this is a slow but moving process of enlightening people to think rationally instead of emotionally. The more we discuss these issues the more peole become aware of how medieval the entire god idea is.

There's also existence out of nothingness - that we've become what we were not before. Have you also thought of this line of thinking? I like your arguments - but I've always believed that believers and non-believers alike are just people saying (knowing, believing in one reality) the same thing only from different perspectives.

Can you recall my example of drawing a bottle from where you are and whether all drawing it will draw a similar figure? So, does the way we know or believe, trust something.

 

[Pundit]

There's also existence out of nothingness - that we've become what we were not before. Have you also thought of this line of thinking? I like your arguments - but I've always believed that believers and non-believers alike are just people saying (knowing, believing in one reality) the same thing only from different perspectives.

Can you recall my example of drawing a bottle from where you are and whether all drawing it will draw a similar figure? So, does the way we know or believe, trust something.

When you say "existence out of nothingness" what do you mean?

Do you mean the springing up of something out of an apparent nothingness (just like some cosmogonists argue in some localized versions of the big bang theory) or do you mean it in the sense that "even nothingness" exist?


The first case is not convincing because the "out of nothing, something" will always point to a closed system which upon closer examination will be found to have something injected from outside.

The big bang version proclaim the universe began in a disturbance between positive and negative energies, which existed in equal tendom and cancelled each other beyond the reach of the known space-time contimuum, but the disturbance cause a rapture in the fabric of this structure that gave birth to the big bang, it's expansion, space, time and the rest is cosmogonic history.

A more down to earth example is the birth of a child or germination in general, if you look at some closed systems you can arrive at the "out of nothing something" conclusion, but it is only when you expand your system's domain when you will be able to account for the springing up of new life.

The other perceivable argument, that "nothingness" exists is rather philosophical and hard to imagine and picture in what Einstein called "the mind's eye" primarily because as Niels Bohr used to say "Nature abhorrs a vacuum" let alone nothingness.

It is impossible to create a perfect vacuum in this spacetime continuum, let alone produce a tangible "nothingness". One of the reasons being we exist in spacetime, and anything we can manipulate tangibly must exist in spacetime, so this nothingness, once it is in space-time, cannot qualify as "nothingness" because even if we were able to completely empty a square meter of space (which is impossible by the way) we will still have space and the constant and ceaseless pertubility presented by virtual particles shooting into and out of existence at the speed of light for a ridiculously minuscule lifespan to make meaningful interaction beyond reach.

Of course, there is the possibility of a point of view that did not come apparent.

 

[Makanyaga]

The qestion of GOD exist and does not exist is simply a waste of time because here people argue by heart! Existence .... what is existence? before saying god exist or does not we need to define existence first otherwise it will be argue and counter argue because everybody has hardwired beliefs about what they accept as reality.

If by existence we mean physical manifestation which can be measured and quantified ..... the whole question of god becomes immaterial because there is no phyisical dimensions that can be attributed to GOD. Those who say then that there is a "super natural force" don't know what they are saying. Force has physical manifestation can be measured and quantized. Let them say super natural, they will be talking of something super and natural (but not force - GOD in any way cannot be likened to force because force is measurable). All books and evidence about GOD DO NOT TALK OF SUPERNATURAL FORCE AS GOD. so this is not acceptable!

If by existence we mean anything that can be brought into our conscious thinking, then GOD exists because people (at least some people) have that room for god in their locus of thinking. The term to use then will be relative existance. With this kind of existence GOD (or what ever name applies to similar concept) existence is subject to belief and thence need no proof. There are various attempts that can be found in the ancient books to prove existence of god. But common to all books and sages is that GOD'S EXISTENCE IS RELATIVE. Remember relativity?

Now back to the subject of god being mentioned in the national anthem. I think this is simply cultural more than religious and since our culture over the years was shaped by religions (both tradional and colonial) then we can either accept the innevitable (invocation of god's) or wait until the culture matures to a point where god becomes incognito. By then things like national anthems, flags, and similar symbolism (all have ancient connections) will be things of the past.

Discussing GOD today is likely going to be a non-productve, irrerevant and absurd topic. We will be arguing in different dimension thus no conclussive evidence can convince both groups; pro and con.[/QUOTE]

Kipimapembe jamani! Look;
Can you measure quantitatively, the difference between a corpse (perhaps within the limits of 1-2 minutes just after death), and a living person like you or me? NOT ALL EXISTENCE CAN BE MEASURED QUANTITAVELY USING SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS! After all, scientific instruments' accuracy work best with scientists, not with God; otherwise, today's technology could have inveted best instruments to protect people from the worst cases of all---DEATH. Neither, will it do in the near or the long future. UHAI HAUWEZI KUPATIKANA HIVIHIVI TU BILA KUWEPO MASTERMIND SOMEWHERE ALIYEUWEKA NA KUENDELEA KUUCONTROL.
More over, existence is in itself, a product of some other force- but which one?

Mwanasayansi kipimapembe, this is today's assignment to you:

Question1.
PROVE THAT YOU , AND THAT ALL CREATURES, LIVING AND NON LIVING, WERE NOT CREATED BY GOD, AND

Question 2.
IF YOU TOTALLY BELIEVE IN THE BING BANG THEORY AS THE SOURCE OF ALL EXISTENCE, SHOW THAT THE "BING BANG" EFFECT HAS ITS CAUSE/ORIGIN IN ITSELF AND NOWHERE ELSE!

Note:Our discussion here is about "God" and not "god" as you have been always referrinf to Him
Goodday and goodluck with the assignment!

 

[Pundit]

The qestion of GOD exist and does not exist is simply a waste of time because here people argue by heart! Existence .... what is existence? before saying god exist or does not we need to define existence first otherwise it will be argue and counter argue because everybody has hardwired beliefs about what they accept as reality.

If by existence we mean physical manifestation which can be measured and quantified ..... the whole question of god becomes immaterial because there is no phyisical dimensions that can be attributed to GOD. Those who say then that there is a "super natural force" don't know what they are saying. Force has physical manifestation can be measured and quantized. Let them say super natural, they will be talking of something super and natural (but not force - GOD in any way cannot be likened to force because force is measurable). All books and evidence about GOD DO NOT TALK OF SUPERNATURAL FORCE AS GOD. so this is not acceptable!

If by existence we mean anything that can be brought into our conscious thinking, then GOD exists because people (at least some people) have that room for god in their locus of thinking. The term to use then will be relative existance. With this kind of existence GOD (or what ever name applies to similar concept) existence is subject to belief and thence need no proof. There are various attempts that can be found in the ancient books to prove existence of god. But common to all books and sages is that GOD'S EXISTENCE IS RELATIVE. Remember relativity?

Now back to the subject of god being mentioned in the national anthem. I think this is simply cultural more than religious and since our culture over the years was shaped by religions (both tradional and colonial) then we can either accept the innevitable (invocation of god's) or wait until the culture matures to a point where god becomes incognito. By then things like national anthems, flags, and similar symbolism (all have ancient connections) will be things of the past.

Discussing GOD today is likely going to be a non-productve, irrerevant and absurd topic. We will be arguing in different dimension thus no conclussive evidence can convince both groups; pro and con.[/QUOTE]

Kipimapembe jamani! Look;
Can you measure quantitatively, the difference between a corpse (perhaps within the limits of 1-2 minutes just after death), and a living person like you or me? NOT ALL EXISTENCE CAN BE MEASURED QUANTITAVELY USING SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS! After all, scientific instruments' accuracy work best with scientists, not with God; otherwise, today's technology could have inveted best instruments to protect people from the worst cases of all---DEATH. Neither, will it do in the near or the long future. UHAI HAUWEZI KUPATIKANA HIVIHIVI TU BILA KUWEPO MASTERMIND SOMEWHERE ALIYEUWEKA NA KUENDELEA KUUCONTROL.
More over, existence is in itself, a product of some other force- but which one?

Mwanasayansi kipimapembe, this is today's assignment to you:

Question1.
PROVE THAT YOU , AND THAT ALL CREATURES, LIVING AND NON LIVING, WERE NOT CREATED BY GOD, AND

Question 2.
IF YOU TOTALLY BELIEVE IN THE BING BANG THEORY AS THE SOURCE OF ALL EXISTENCE, SHOW THAT THE "BING BANG" EFFECT HAS ITS CAUSE/ORIGIN IN ITSELF AND NOWHERE ELSE!

Note:Our discussion here is about "God" and not "god" as you have been always referrinf to Him
Goodday and goodluck with the assignment!

So simplistic and dogmatic it baffles the imagination.

 

[MaxShimba]

Why not?

 

[Dopas]

game theory, nadhani yapo mambo mengi zaidi yanayosababisha tusiendelee, kuliko kuamini kuwa Mungu yupo au kuimba tu 'Mungu' katika wimbo wa Taifa. Kwanini kupoteza muda mwingi kuwa hakuna Mungu badala ya kujadili ya maendeleo walau ya familia yako. Unawajaza wanao ujinga ya kuwa waamini hakuna Mungu, badala ya kuwafundisha namna ya kujikwamua kimaisha. Mbona husemi kuwa wakiimba wimbo huo wa taifa wanapata athari zipi kimaendeleo? Unahitaji kumwona dk wa psychology, ukipenda, la endelea kubaki ulivyo.
Nchi sasa ipo katika hali ngumu: yapo mambo mengi ya kujadili kwa manufaa ya nchi na ya jamii ya watanzania kwa ujumla. Unakwepa hayo ya msingi, na kuingiza yasiyona faida kwa mtanzania wa sasa, ambaye anahitaji umeme, maji, chakula, malazi, nk, ambaye hahitaji kwa sasa kufahamu kama kuna Mungu au la, ambaye hapati athari kama akiimba wimbo wa Taifa ulio na neno 'Mungu'