Dr. Kitila ampa tabu Thabo Mbeki

[The Father of All]

Sijui ni mimi au Kitilya ambaye hakufanya utafiti. Maana sikumbuki kusikia mtoto wa Mbeki akifa kwa ukimwi zaidi ya Macgatho wa Nelson Mandela. Hivyo swali lenyewe lilikuwa linachanganya hasa ikizingatiwa limeongelea msimamo wa Mbeki kwa kutumia uzoefu wa mtu mwingine. Hivyo swali lilikuwa na makosa from the outset na Mbeki alifanya vyema kutolijibu.

 

[Companero]

Because every question comes from an angle.

And we have yet to hear the Dar-es-salaam angle of this question's answer.

Mr. Mbeki is more at home in Dar/ Tanzania than some of these western capitals, why, a good number of his comrades must have gone to Solomon Mahlangu in Morogoro. There is a certain leeway you have when answering this question in a sort of home away from home that he cannot be afforded in SA or the West..

Sadly, his decision not to answer denies us the Dar version of the answer, where he could hyperbole on colonialism and globalization for hours on end with no interruption.

It is conceivable that he found his arguments tired and decided to shun the whole attempt.

That remains what it is, a conception - as conceived by you, not Mbeki let alone Mkumbo.

 

[Kiranga]

That remains what it is, a conception - as conceived by you, not Mbeki let alone Mkumbo.

Which Mbeki had an opportunity to squash to smithereens, but couldn't.

 

[Kiranga]

Sijui ni mimi au Kitilya ambaye hakufanya utafiti. Maana sikumbuki kusikia mtoto wa Mbeki akifa kwa ukimwi zaidi ya Macgatho wa Nelson Mandela. Hivyo swali lenyewe lilikuwa linachanganya hasa ikizingatiwa limeongelea msimamo wa Mbeki kwa kutumia uzoefu wa mtu mwingine. Hivyo swali lilikuwa na makosa from the outset na Mbeki alifanya vyema kutolijibu.

Ni wewe mkuu.

Rejea thread.Utafiti wako uanzie hapahapa kwenye thread hii hii tu, fuatilia post ya kwanza ya pili ya tatu etc etc utaona swala zima la mtoto wa Mbeki kufa kwa UKIMWI limekanushwa vilivyo na Dr. Mkumbo.

Nimependa ulivyoanza na humility ya kuuliza badala ya kusema kwamba Dr. Mkumbo hajafanya utafiti. True mark of sense of class.

 

[Companero]

Which Mbeki had an opportunity to squash to smithereens, but couldn't.

Why squash something that has been laid to rest thanks to the betrayal of those who don't believe they can have an African Galileo in this day and age?

"How long shall they kill our prophets, while we stand aside and look? Ooh!" - Bob Marley

"Galileo Galilei, an Italian scientist, lived from 1564 to 1642. In 1610, he was the first person we know of to use the newly invented telescope to look at the stars and planets. He discovered the satellites of Jupiter, which showed that Ptolemy's and the Church's idea that there was only one center of orbits in the Universe (namely, the Earth) was incorrect. Based on his observations, Galilei argued for the heliocentric model of Copernicus. He noticed that stars look like little points even when seen through a telescope, and concluded that stars must be very far away indeed. In part because Bruno (a convicted heretic) supported them, the ideas of Copernicus were condemned by the Catholic Church in 1616, and Galileo was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633. He was forced to publicly deny the ideas of Copernicus, and was held under house arrest until he died in 1642. In 1979 a reinvestigation of this conviction was started by the Church and finally the conviction was overturned, about 340 years after Galileo's death. A famous story, but perhaps untrue, has Galileo mutter (of the Earth) "And yet she moves!" on his death-bed. Yet, Galileo, like Bruno and Aristarchus before him, had no proof that the Sun and stars are alike" - Stanford SOLAR Center -- Ask A Solar Physicist FAQs - Answer

 

[Kiranga]

Why squash something that has been laid to rest thanks to the betrayal of those who don't believe they can have an African Galileo in this day and age?

"How long shall they kill our prophets, while we stand aside and look? Ooh!" - Bob Marley

"Galileo Galilei, an Italian scientist, lived from 1564 to 1642. In 1610, he was the first person we know of to use the newly invented telescope to look at the stars and planets. He discovered the satellites of Jupiter, which showed that Ptolemy's and the Church's idea that there was only one center of orbits in the Universe (namely, the Earth) was incorrect. Based on his observations, Galilei argued for the heliocentric model of Copernicus. He noticed that stars look like little points even when seen through a telescope, and concluded that stars must be very far away indeed. In part because Bruno (a convicted heretic) supported them, the ideas of Copernicus were condemned by the Catholic Church in 1616, and Galileo was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633. He was forced to publicly deny the ideas of Copernicus, and was held under house arrest until he died in 1642. In 1979 a reinvestigation of this conviction was started by the Church and finally the conviction was overturned, about 340 years after Galileo's death. A famous story, but perhaps untrue, has Galileo mutter (of the Earth) "And yet she moves!" on his death-bed. Yet, Galileo, like Bruno and Aristarchus before him, had no proof that the Sun and stars are alike" - Stanford SOLAR Center -- Ask A Solar Physicist FAQs - Answer

You cannot tell me anything I don't know about Galileo, why, while my peers were following the curriculum I was burrowing through his escapades with the popes, and "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" in 1991. I often go back to him in my atheism paradigm shift here in JF.

I also find the whole idea of "African Galileo" self defeatist. Especially for an Africanist, as every Pan-African is supposed to be.

It is like when people who think they are complimenting Arusha by calling it "The Geneva of Africa". I find the whole analogy offensive. Why do you call Arusha the "Geneva of Africa" and no one calls Geneva "The Arusha of Europe".

Why do you call Mbeki the African Galileo? Do you lack African examples to draw from?

And you are telling me that you who do lack enough of your history to draw an African analogy is the ideologue in this joint? I wonder what the lazy bastards are going to say? They probably don't even know who Imhotep was!

You may want to squash something that has been laid to rest for the sake of reiteration and providing a commensurate timeline.

For the same reason the Tanzanian government never tired of condemning apartheid. The Nyerere administration never tired of dispelling apartheid because it was such a despicable setup.

If Mbeki was still feeling the same stance, he would see this question as an opportunity to open more eyes to his worldview.

But what does he do? He clams up. Why? Because he realizes the arrow of time which no Hegelian hyperbole could stand against, is not in his favor. He might be a hyperbole, but he is no fool.

He realizes that scientific research has moved beyond what he could hyperbole back in the days. Why, people are talking about understanding enough about HIV to whip up a cure in a decade or two.

Mbeki might not be exceptionally smart, but he has been privileged enough to know that he is better off not answering this question.

He measures the pros and cons of answering this question.

He sees the quotes in the next days dailies all over the world "Mbeki maintains". "Die Hard Mbeki". "IdeologueTo The End". "Old Boy Still Spins". "Shameless". "Inside Out With Unrepentant Ex-Communist" etc etc.

He decides no. I have neither the courage nor the dsire to deal with this. Ten years ago, maybe, now? I am too old for this.

I need me a Lushoto like old boy den back in SA. Where I could read my parallel universe extra intellectuall novels, and dream of a better world in peace. Why did I even come to Dar? Who is this Dr. Mkumbo? He must be a counterrevolutionary force.

(Supressing a yawn)

No thanks.

'I will not respond to that pinching question'

 

[Companero]

You myself cannot tell me anything I don't know about Galileo, why, while my peers were following the curriculum I was burrowing through his escapades with the popes in 1991.

I also find the whole idea of "African Galileo" self defeatist.

It is like when people who think they are complimenting Arusha by calling it "The Geneva of Africa". I find the whole analogy offensive. Why do you call Arusha the "Geneva of Africa" and no one calls Geneva "The Arusha of Europe".

Why do you call Mbeki the African Galileo? Do you lack African examples to draw from?

And you are telling me that you who do lack enough of your history to draw an African analogy is the ideologue in this joint? I wonder what the lazy bastards are going to say? They probably don't even know who Imhotep was!

You may want to squash something that has been laid to rest for the sake of reiteration and providing a commensurate timeline.

For the same reason the Tanzanian government never tired of condemning apartheid. The Nyerere administration never tired of dispelling apartheid because it was such a despicable setup.

If Mbeki was still feeling the same stance, he would see this question as an opportunity to open more eyes to his worldview.

But what does he do? He clams up. Why? Because he realizes the arrow of time which no Hegelian hyperbole could stand against, is not in his favors. He might be a hyperbole, but he is no fool.

He realizes that scientific research has moved beyond what he could hyperbole back in the days. Why, people are talking about understanding enough about HIV to whip up a cure in a decade or two.

Mbeki might not be exceptionally smart, but he has been privileged enough to know that he is better off not answering this question.

He measures the pros and cons of answering this question.

He sees the quotes in the next days dailies all over the world "Mbeki maintains". "Die Hard Mbeki". "IdeologueTo The End". "Old Boy Still Spins". "Shameless". "Inside Out With Unrepentant Ex-Communist" etc etc.

He decides no. I have neither the courage nor the dsire to deal with this. Ten years ago, maybe, now? I am too old for this.

I need me a Lushoto like old boy den back in SA. Where I could read my parallel universe extra intellectuall novels, and dream of a better world in peace. Why did I even come to Dar? Who is this Dr. Mkumbo? He must be a counterrevolutionary force.

(Supressing a yawn)

No thanks.

'I will not respond to that pinching question'

Interesting rumination indeed but, conceivable as it is, at the end of the day it does not change the fact that one can win the battle but lose the war - the war was lost long time ago when totalitarian scientists silenced the African Galileo, or should I say South African Imhotep or even Idutywan Hypatia to satisfy you quest for autochthonous examples? This was not simply a question of worldview or arguing for the sake of arguing - it was a quest for deeper and lasting solutions to African predicaments that cannot be reduced to one disease let alone a syndrome. AIDS continue to be a multidimensional problem and it has to be dealt as such.

By the way, Galileo was not invoked to pretentiously and futilely attempt to teach the master of singularity about one of the greatest dissents of all time - only a personal and paranoid reading smacking of an unquenchable quest for ad hominem bordering the narcissism of pygmalion would see it as such.

 

[Gaijin]

Lol @ (suppressing a yawn)

Kisha anaona huyo Mkumbo ma swali lake la kujitutumua la kumweka kona zizini katoka kaliwacha geti la zizi wazi

Katoka mdogo mdogo kwa tambo, kuwa Mkumbo kafuata mkumbo wa Wazungu tu, data zake si lolote si chochote

Mwanasiasa mkongwe hakosi a trick or two za kuwapumbazia wanagenzi kwenye mambo

 

[Mkuu wa chuo]

Lol @ (suppressing a yawn)

Kisha anaona huyo Mkumbo ma swali lake la kujitutumua la kumweka kona zizini katoka kaliwacha geti la zizi wazi

Katoka mdogo mdogo kwa tambo, kuwa Mkumbo kafuata mkumbo wa Wazungu tu, data zake si lolote si chochote

Mwanasiasa mkongwe hakosi a trick or two za kuwapumbazia wanagenzi kwenye mambo

sasa na wewe umeandika nini!? Mbona sijakuelewa...

 

[Gaijin]

sasa na wewe umeandika nini!? Mbona sijakuelewa...

Nikusaidieje?

 

[Companero]

sasa na wewe umeandika nini!? Mbona sijakuelewa...

utakuwa mwanagenzi wewe, kaa na wakufunzi wakufunde

 

[Kiranga]

Lol @ (suppressing a yawn)

Kisha anaona huyo Mkumbo ma swali lake la kujitutumua la kumweka kona zizini katoka kaliwacha geti la zizi wazi

Katoka mdogo mdogo kwa tambo, kuwa Mkumbo kafuata mkumbo wa Wazungu tu, data zake si lolote si chochote

Mwanasiasa mkongwe hakosi a trick or two za kuwapumbazia wanagenzi kwenye mambo

Lol @ Suppressing a yawn, there should be an elaborate Gore Vidal play depicting this.

Kufikiri kwamba Dr. Mkumbo alitaka kumuweka kona (Rais mstaafu?) Mbeki si kuwatendea haki wote, maaana Dotori aweza sema alitaka kumpa nafasi rais ku register the latest of his sentiments tu. Kama tumesema rais anaweza kuulizwa mpaka kifo chake (ashakum, pishia, pishia, pishia) seuze UDSM ambako vitko vinaruhusiwa kwa leseni ya usomi ambayo ndo kwanza tunaigenzi.

Kusema kwamba kafuata Mkumbo kwa Wazungu tu hakumtendei haki. Kwa maana aweza kufuata mkumbo (sio Mkumbo mind you) kwa wazungu na kuchanganya na zake, bila kufuata mkumbo tu. Na bado sijaona upinzani wa swala langu la bandarini kabisa (bandarini pako wazi na panakubali mambo ya dunia nzima, kama vile nina ruhusa ya kumfundisha binti wa bandari kuhusu bandari) kwamba atheist mpe biblia ai disprove. Kwangu uongo mkubwa hutenguliwa na ukweli mdogo. Kwa hiyo kama Mkumbo ana meza habari za wazungu tu, si lolote si chochote, wakufunzi tungeona.

Badili tumeona mantiki yake iliyotuenzi wa Mzizima wote. Kutoka Mwembetogwa mpaka Pugu.

Mwanasiasa mkongwe hakosi habari, Mbeki kajionyesha si mkongwe kwa kukosa habari ya kumkuza, kuhusu swali la Dr. Mkumbo, sio tu Mbeki kakosa habari ya kumkuza, kakosa habar yoyote na kubaki kulia tu kwamba swali linamchoma.

'I will not respond to that pinching question'

 

[Nsiande]

Mods,
Naomba Kitila's explanation iwe hapo mbele kwa mleta mada wa kwanza

Itasaidia tunavyoendelea kuchangia

I remember Waangari Matahi (RIP ) was asked about her views on the same wakati anapokea nobel peace prize yake, she had been earlier on quoted to say HIV AIDS 'deliberately created by a biological agent'

Alipoulizwa na Time magazine bado alishikilia msimamo japo aliuqualify kidogo ...kwa kusema she has 'no idea if its biological agent or not.....but there is some truth that must not be too exposed'

Nadhani Mbeki for his sake alitakiwa kujipanga kutetea msimamo wake au kukubali alikosea

 

[Companero]

"I will not respond to that pinching question", what a dignified presidential response - to a fiery upcoming statesman - from a composed elderly statesman who wisely "stopped talking publicly about Aids several years ago"

 

[Kiranga]

Mods,
Naomba Kitila's explanation iwe hapo mbele kwa mleta mada wa kwanza

Itasaidia tunavyoendelea kuchangia

I remember Waangari Matahi (RIP ) was asked about her views on the same wakati anapokea nobel peace prize yake, she had been earlier on quoted to say HIV AIDS 'deliberately created by a biological agent'

Alipoulizwa na Time magazine bado alishikilia msimamo japo aliuqualify kidogo ...kwa kusema she has 'no idea if its biological agent or not.....but there is some truth that must not be too exposed'

Nadhani Mbeki for his sake alitakiwa kujipanga kutetea msimamo wake au kukubali alikosea

Brilliant. It's not like Mbeki hajui kwamba hili jambo litamhunza maisha yake yote.

 

[Gaijin]

Lol @ Suppressing a yawn, there should be an elaborate Gore Vidal play depicting this.

Kufikiri kwamba Dr. Mkumbo alitaka kumuweka kona (Rais mstaafu?) Mbeki si kuwatendea haki wote, maaana Dotori aweza sema alitaka kumpa nafasi rais ku register the latest of his sentiments tu. Kama tumesema rais anaweza kuulizwa mpaka kifo chake (ashakum, pishia, pishia, pishia) seuze UDSM ambako vitko vinaruhusiwa kwa leseni ya usomi ambayo ndo kwanza tunaigenzi.

Kusema kwamba kafuata Mkumbo kwa Wazungu tu hakumtendei haki. Kwa maana aweza kufuata mkumbo (sio Mkumbo mind you) kwa wazungu na kuchanganya na zake, bila kufuata mkumbo tu. Na bado sijaona upinzani wa swala langu la bandarini kabisa (bandarini pako wazi na panakubali mambo ya dunia nzima, kama vile nina ruhusa ya kumfundisha binti wa bandari kuhusu bandari) kwamba atheist mpe biblia ai disprove. Kwangu uongo mkubwa hutenguliwa na ukweli mdogo. Kwa hiyo kama Mkumbo ana meza habari za wazungu tu, si lolote si chochote, wakufunzi tungeona.

Badili tumeona mantiki yake iliyotuenzi wa Mzizima wote. Kutoka Mwembetogwa mpaka Pugu.

Mwanasiasa mkongwe hakosi habari, Mbeki kajionyesha si mkongwe kwa kukosa habari ya kumkuza, kuhusu swali la Dr. Mkumbo, sio tu Mbeki kakosa habari ya kumkuza, kakosa habar yoyote na kubaki kulia tu kwamba swali linamchoma.

'I will not respond to that pinching question'

Hakuna badili yoyote iliyopatikana iwapo watu hatutapewa jibu kamili la Mbeki tukalitendea haki kama tulivyopewa swali kamili la Dr. Mkumbo (hatimae)

Utajuaje, kuwa hakutumia hizo data za Wazungu kuonyesha kuwa hazina mantiki yoyote ya kuweza kutumika kujengea hoja?

Kwa mujibu wa swali la Dr.Mkumbo, hoja yake nzima inabebwa na data hizo. Kama hatujapewa jibu la Mbeki kwayo, tutakuwa hatutendi haki

Alianza kwa kufunguka kuhusu data baada ya kusema ni pinching question ....

Tupeni "kideo" hapa kabla watu wengine hawajaanza kuondoa chombo wakiwa bandari ya nchi kavu, kutuhanikiza kwa sifa (inyopakwa kwenye chombo) bila ya kuwa na chambo mbali ya shombo

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

You say the aim was to discuss the future of the continent, and you ask about his past comments (i don't dispute his remarks were absurd, nevertheless it wasn't a priority point considering the facts of the matter).

The past is and has always been a good guide to the future.

This is where your choices lie, here is the man who once lead a nation with the strongest african economy, with many similar resources to your country only you with the advantage of not having inside vouchers in terms of makaburu. Here is a man who led a corrupt regime, i can go and on in terms of similar problems.

You have that chance of getting first hand response in many of our shared problems in his perspective and you choose the outdated question, I could understand if the question was about how we deal with the HIV problem, but surely not a provoking question.

Yes he led a nation with Africa's strongest economy but in the end he was ousted. So there is a case to be made that his was a failed presidency.

Wengine wanalipwa malaki just to appear na kabisa wana-demand what sort of question ought not to be asked, but people are happy to pay those sums just to hear about their expertise opinions through their niche experiences, you get that chance with one of those few people and you choose to annoy him.

Confident leaders don't shy away from answering questions. And I don't see where you are getting this notion of annoyance that you are peddling here! Kitila asked a very pertinent question and Mbeki prevaricated. That to me speaks volumes about his knowledge, confidence, and the tenability of his stance regarding the issue.

he should have known better on this one.

Mbeki is the one who should fess up and stop being a 'denialist'.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

MNadhani Mbeki for his sake alitakiwa kujipanga kutetea msimamo wake au kukubali alikosea

Deep down he knows he is in the minority and that his stance is untenable.

So rather than keep putting his foot in his mouth he figures the best way to avoid that is to dismiss such questions.

 

[Janjaweed]

Kitila kama class mate poa tu ila alichouliza hakina mantiki yoyote kwa wakati huu; suala AIDS si la mtu mmoja yapo mambo mengi yamechangia; kutapakaa kwa AIDS Afrika kusini kumechangiwa na mambo mengi sana na yapo wazi. Swali alilouliza ni la kiwango cha nchini sana kama alikuwa hana cha kuuliza angenyamaza tu.

Chama
Gongo la mboto DSM

Una kazi sana kuwa na uelewa wa mambo.............. in SA, HIV is beyond swali, it is a package, na kwa imbechili yako huwezi jua

ngoja utandikwe na aids, tuone kama utaiweka HIV unavyojaribu kuiweka sasa

Jah Bless

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

"I will not respond to that pinching question", what a dignified presidential response - to a fiery upcoming statesman - from a composed elderly statesman who wisely "stopped talking publicly about Aids several years ago"

There is absolutely nothing dignified about not answering a very pertinent question. It is a cop-out.