Mtei alipotofautiana na Mwalimu Nyerere

[Nyani Ngabu]

Waliomuondoa waliboronga zaidi na kupandisha chart ya Dear Leader, the prophet Kwame.

Sisi tulijaribu ile '64 tukashindwa. Halafu wale "wahaini" vipi? Na wao si walitest zali?

 

[Rev.Kishoka]

Kuhusu ubaguzi hilo sijui. So I can't say much.

Ila utupu? Hell no! Huyu mtupu unayemsema wewe ndiye yule aliye debate na Nuclear Scientist Jimmy Carter na kuja kumshinda vibaya sana kwenye uchaguzi mkuu? Ndiye huyu mtupu unayemzungumzia? Mtupu unayemzungumzia wewe ndiye yule isingekuwa kwa kura 3,000 kule Minnesota angesweep majimbo yote kwenye uchaguzi mkuu wa 1984? Mtupu anshinda majimbo 49/50 kwenye uchaguzi wa Marekani? Hebu cheki hii nukuu kutoka Wiki: "He was a gifted student from an early age who always had a fondness for reading"

Eti mtupu? Nadhani mtupu tunaye sisi. Reagan hakuwa mtupu hata kiduchu. Hizo zilikuwa ni propaganda za Democraps waliposhindwa hoja na kuanza mashambulizi ya nafsi yake. Mtupu hawezi kusweep uchaguzi wa Marekani aisee.

Nyani,

Let the Gipper rest, he was the best!

 

[Zakumi]

Sisi tulijaribu ile '64 tukashindwa. Halafu wale "wahaini" vipi? Na wao si walitest zali?

Jasusi atakuwa ana-nyuzi nao. Lakini baadaye alibadilisha mfumo wa jeshi na kuanza masomo ya siasa jeshini. Si ndio maana unaona wakina Makamba, Chiligati wamo kwenye siasa.

 

[Bluray]

Kuhusu ubaguzi hilo sijui. So I can't say much.

Ila utupu? Hell no! Huyu mtupu unayemsema wewe ndiye yule aliye debate na Nuclear Scientist Jimmy Carter na kuja kumshinda vibaya sana kwenye uchaguzi mkuu? Ndiye huyu mtupu unayemzungumzia? Mtupu unayemzungumzia wewe ndiye yule isingekuwa kwa kura 3,000 kule Minnesota angesweep majimbo yote kwenye uchaguzi mkuu wa 1984? Mtupu anshinda majimbo 49/50 kwenye uchaguzi wa Marekani? Hebu cheki hii nukuu kutoka Wiki: "He was a gifted student from an early age who always had a fondness for reading"

Eti mtupu? Nadhani mtupu tunaye sisi. Reagan hakuwa mtupu hata kiduchu. Hizo zilikuwa ni propaganda za Democraps waliposhindwa hoja na kuanza mashambulizi ya nafsi yake. Mtupu hawezi kusweep uchaguzi wa Marekani aisee.

1. That Carter was a nuclear scientist is a spin, he only completed an non-credit intro course on that subject.

2. I noted hujasema alimshinda katika debate, especially on the substance.Nimeiona hiyo debate na Carter alikuwa na points kali kuliko Reagan, ila just like the Nixon-Kennedy debate, the mother of all US Presidential race debates, the winner (Reagan) perhaps capitalizing on his media savvy, was the better showman.Kilichomuangusha Carter si Reagan per se, ila ni performance yake mwenyewe Carter na kuwa perceived as dovish - especially after his failure in the Iran hostrage crisis-

3.Reagan was not a technocrat/ policy wonk in the way Dick Cheney/ Barack Obama are, he was more of a good showman, that's why they called him "The Great Communicator". Ndiyo maana ilivyofika muda wa kwenda toe to toe Cancun (I think this is what the above poster was referring to about Nyerer standing up to "Reagan and Thatcher" Nyerere na Tradeau waliwa murder machete Reagan na Thatcher kuhusu mambo ya subsidies.

Relatively speaking Nyerere was an intellectual in his own right and we cannot deny him that, although his abilities are beiong ballooned to a crazy demi-god status (they literally want to make him a saint now).

It is occassions like this childish walking out on Mtei that gives a truer picture of Nyerere and his antics, quite unstatesmanlike.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Nyani,

Let the Gipper rest, he was the best!

For nostalgia's sake here's the best of the Gipper...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtYdjbpBk6A[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7aRIhUkHY[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoPu1UIBkBc[/ame]

 

[Bluray]

Unaona, more of showmanship than substance. Reagan alikuwa mostly communicator, the heavy, thankless lifting was done by the Casper Weinbergers, George Schultzes and even George Bush the father.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

1. That Carter was a nuclear scientist is a spin, he only completed an non-credit intro course on that subject.

Well...blame the Democraps for that spin

2. I noted hujasema alimshinda katika debate, especially on the substance.Nimeiona hiyo debate na Carter alikuwa na points kali kuliko Reagan, ila just like the Nixon-Kennedy debate, the mother of all US Presidential race debates, the winner (Reagan) perhaps capitalizing on his media savvy, was the better showman.Kilichomuangusha Carter si Reagan per se, ila ni performance yake mwenyewe Carter na kuwa perceived as dovish - especially after his failure in the Iran hostrage crisis-

Reagan sealed the deal by this line: "Are you better off than you were four years ago". That's as real as it gets. Hoja siyo kuwa na points kali. Hoja ni jinsi gani message yako inavyo-resonate na watu. Hebu siku jaribu kuogmbea ubunge bongo halafu uje na mbwembwe za Kiingereza chako uone. Now, you may believe in your own hype that you are the most intelligent person to walk the face of the earth but if you don't make sense to the voters...you're aspirations are doomed. Reagan connected with the people.

3.Reagan was not a technocrat/ policy wonk in the way Dick Cheney/ Barack Obama are, he was more of a good showman, that's why they called him "The Great Communicator". Ndiyo maana ilivyofika muda wa kwenda toe to toe Cancun (I think this is what the above poster was referring to about Nyerer standing up to "Reagan and Thatcher" Nyerere na Tradeau waliwa murder machete Reagan na Thatcher kuhusu mambo ya subsidies.

You don't have to be a wonk to be president. And being a wonk doesn't mean much either. Connection is the name of the game. Clinton had both. He connected with the people and he was/is a wonk. Al Gore was just wonkish and you saw what happened.

Relatively speaking Nyerere was an intellectual in his own right and we cannot deny him that, although his abilities are beiong ballooned to a crazy demi-god status (they literally want to make him a saint now).

No one is saying he was a dummy. But I'm just curious how he would have fared in today's environment. I have never seen Nyerere in a debate. I don't know how good of a debater he was. Not all intellectuals are good debaters and not all good debaters are good intellectuals. Too bad mfumo wetu wa kisiasa haukuruhusu free-flow exchange of ideas and intellect.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Unaona, more of showmanship than substance. Reagan alikuwa mostly communicator, the heavy, thankless lifting was done by the Casper Weinbergers, George Schultzes and even George Bush the father.

Kwa hiyo na wewe utamwita Reagan mtupu?

 

[Haki sawa]

Huyu Mzee Mtei nampenda sana alipaswa kuwa CUF kwani yeye alikuwa Ngangari hata kwa Mwalimu mwenyewe.

 

[Bluray]

Well...blame the Democraps for that spin



Reagan sealed the deal by this line: "Are you better off than you were four years ago". That's as real as it gets. Hoja siyo kuwa na points kali. Hoja ni jinsi gani message yako inavyo-resonate na watu. Hebu siku jaribu kuogmbea ubunge bongo halafu uje na mbwembwe za Kiingereza chako uone. Now, you may believe in your own hype that you are the most intelligent person to walk the face of the earth but if you don't make sense to the voters...you're aspirations are doomed. Reagan connected with the people.



You don't have to be a wonk to be president. And being a wonk doesn't mean much either. Connection is the name of the game. Clinton had both. He connected with the people and he was/is a wonk. Al Gore was just wonkish and you saw what happened.



No one is saying he was a dummy. But I'm just curious how he would have fared in today's environment. I have never seen Nyerere in a debate. I don't know how good of a debater he was. Not all intellectuals are good debaters and not all good debaters are good intellectuals. Too bad mfumo wetu wa kisiasa haukuruhusu free-flow exchange of ideas and intellect.

We have a fundamental difference.I believe a president should be a wonk as well as be able to connect with the people.A non-wonk president run the risk of being misled like a dummy, an overly wonky president that cannot connect with the people run the risk of being perceived as "not connecting" with the people. Both Carter and Reagan were imbalanced, with Carter being more of a wonk/ realist and Reagan being more of a showman/ fabulist.

Nyerere angekuwepo leo probably angekuwa bado ana influence ya ubaba wa taifa, na hata kama angekuwa na upinzani angekuwa trensetter, miaka aliyopata lead kama Caesarian demigod wa tanzania ilikuwa mingi sana ku make a significant difference, why, some people are crying for Nyerere to come back and fix the country.

The more interesting question kwangu ni vipi kama Nyerere angetokea halafu ajibaraguze katika nguo za mtu mwingine halafu aseme maneno yake, bila watu kujua hii ni wisdom ya Nyerere, wangekubali au wangepuuza? hii ndiyo true test, Nyerere without the label.If you can recognize quality without that fancy label then you trully know quality, otherwise you only follow the crowd.

 

[JokaKuu]

Julius,

..in my opinion Reagan had the worst US policy on Africa.

..huyu jamaa amezitesa sana nchi kama Angola,Mozambique,na Zaire.

..baadhi ya viongozi wa Kiafrika waliotembelea White House wakati wake ni kama Mobutu Sese Seko, Samuel Doe, na Jonas Savimbi.

..pamoja na kujisifia kuwahujumu Soviet Union kule Afghanistan, lakini look at what they got themselves into.

..Soviet Union walikuwa wanashinda vita kule Afghanistan, mpaka Reagan na watu wake walipowapa Mujahedeen stinger missiles.

..matatizo ya Afghanistan ni matunda ya policies za Ronald Reagan.



NB:

..kuna kitabu kinaitwa "Tear Down this myth." jaribu kukitafuta utapata ukweli kuhusu Reagan.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Julius,
..in my opinion Reagan had the worst US policy on Africa.

Heheheheee...Joka, we (Miafrika) are a special case. I honestly don't know why you blame Reagan for his policies towards Africa.

Africa has been led by doofuses for a long time so any blame as far as I'm concerned, lies squarely with them. No excuses.

 

[JokaKuu]

Julius,

..hivi unawajua Renamo wewe?

..unajua kwamba walikuwa wanapewa pesa na CIA wakati wa utawala wa Reagan?

..unajua uharibifu aliofanya Jonas Savimbi kwa nchi ya Angola?

..Savimbi naye kavuta pesa nyingi sana toka kwa utawala wa Reagan.

..Sadam Hussein naye masilaha ya chemical aliyokuwa akiwatwanga nayo Wairan si alipewa na huyu huyu Reagan?

..nenda kule Nicaragua kwa kina Contras.

..Reagan hakuwa mtu mzuri hata kidogo.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Julius,

..hivi unawajua Renamo wewe?

..unajua kwamba walikuwa wanapewa pesa na CIA wakati wa utawala wa Reagan?

..unajua uharibifu aliofanya Jonas Savimbi kwa nchi ya Angola?

..Savimbi naye kavuta pesa nyingi sana toka kwa utawala wa Reagan.

..Sadam Hussein naye masilaha ya chemical aliyokuwa akiwatwanga nayo Wairan si alipewa na huyu huyu Reagan?

..nenda kule Nicaragua kwa kina Contras.

..Reagan hakuwa mtu mzuri hata kidogo.

Yote hayo unayodai Reagan alifanya, Warusi na Wachina nao walifanya. Kama UNITA na Renamo walikuwa wanasaidiwa na Marekani, nani alikuwa akimsaidia Jose Eduardo Dos Santos na MPLA na Frelimo kule Msumbiji? Last I checked, he was very close to the Eastern block.

Warusi na Wamarekani waliigawanya dunia. Hivyo kumlaumu Reagan peke yake hata sii haki. Dunia iligawanyika baada ya vita vikuu vya pili vya dunia.

 

[Zakumi]

Julius,

..in my opinion Reagan had the worst US policy on Africa.

..huyu jamaa amezitesa sana nchi kama Angola,Mozambique,na Zaire.

..baadhi ya viongozi wa Kiafrika waliotembelea White House wakati wake ni kama Mobutu Sese Seko, Samuel Doe, na Jonas Savimbi.

..pamoja na kujisifia kuwahujumu Soviet Union kule Afghanistan, lakini look at what they got themselves into.

..Soviet Union walikuwa wanashinda vita kule Afghanistan, mpaka Reagan na watu wake walipowapa Mujahedeen stinger missiles.

..matatizo ya Afghanistan ni matunda ya policies za Ronald Reagan.



NB:

..kuna kitabu kinaitwa "Tear Down this myth." jaribu kukitafuta utapata ukweli kuhusu Reagan.

Mkuu, kusema kuwa matatizo ya Afghanistan ni policies za Ronald Reagan ni kutomtendea haki.

Urusi ilivamia Afghanistan wakati Jimmy yupo madarakani. Na Jimmy mwenyewe akasema: Ngoja tuwape waRussi Vietnam yao. Hivyo Architect alikuwa Jimmy.

Na kuhusu matatizo ya policies katika nchi za kiAfrika, nadhani viongozi wenyewe wa Afrika ni wa kulaumiwa. Kwa sababu walitaka kutumia vita baridi kupata madaraka au kung'ang'ania madaraka.

 

[Rev.Kishoka]

Julius,

..hivi unawajua Renamo wewe?

..unajua kwamba walikuwa wanapewa pesa na CIA wakati wa utawala wa Reagan?

..unajua uharibifu aliofanya Jonas Savimbi kwa nchi ya Angola?

..Savimbi naye kavuta pesa nyingi sana toka kwa utawala wa Reagan.

..Sadam Hussein naye masilaha ya chemical aliyokuwa akiwatwanga nayo Wairan si alipewa na huyu huyu Reagan?

..nenda kule Nicaragua kwa kina Contras.

..Reagan hakuwa mtu mzuri hata kidogo.

Serpent Generale,

Just like WB/IMF, Ronaldus Magnulus was the same. Intent yao haikuwa kusaidia Afrika bali ni kujisaidia wenyewe.

The Divide and Rule principal is still being used todate and even CCM and JK are using the same old British tricks!

 

[Jasusi]

Jasusi,

..maelezo ya Mtei ni kwamba walikwenda Msasani kumuona Mwalimu saa kumi jioni.

..ujumbe wa IMF uliomba kukutana na Mwalimu kwa mategemeo kwamba wataweza kumshawishi akubaliane na hatua wanazopendekeza. Mtei alishaongea na Mwalimu lakini akashindwa kum-convince.

..apart frm Mwalimu, waliokuwepo ktk kikao hicho ni kiongozi wa ujumbe wa IMF akiitwa Bo Karlstrom ambaye ni raia wa Sweden na msaidizi wake, Mtei, na Ernest Mulokozi PS was Hazina.

..maelezo ya Mtei ni kwamba aliyetoa briefing ni Bo Karlstrom.

..I dont want to give all the details hapa inabidi usome kitabu.

..lakini Mtei anadai kwamba aliwaeleza[kwenye kikao cha chai nyumbani kwa Mtei] jamaa wa IMF kwamba the negotiations had broken down.

..sasa kama Nyerere aliona Mtei amekaidi maagizo yake ya kuwafukuza jamaa wa IMF, ni nini kilichomzuia Nyerere kwenda kuwakamata kwenye kikao chao cha chai na kuwatoa kwenye ardhi ya Tanzania?

..kwa mtizamo wangu Mwalimu just had a bad day. Mwalimu tunayemkumbuka kwa kuwa-dress down miamba kama, Margareth Thatcher, na Ronald Reagan, ashindwe kumdhibiti kwa hoja afisa mdogo wa IMF toka Uganda?

NB:

..nategemea Mzee Mtei atakuja kutolea maelezo zaidi yaliyojiri ktk hicho kikao cha Msasani.

..anahitaji kutoa maelezo kama kweli kulikuwa na kijana wa Kiganda aliyemtibua Mwalimu.

..vilevile anapaswa kueleza iwapo alipigiwa simu na Mwalimu waonane lakini yeye akaamua kuendelea kunywa chai na ujumbe wa IMF

..

jokaKuu,
Sijasoma kitabu cha Mtei lakini nashangaa kwa mtu ambaye alifanya kazi na
Mwalimu hakujua vitu ambavyo vinaweza kumuudhi JKN. Yule afisa wa IMF nadhani alikuwa kiongozi wa mission na si afisa mwandamizi ndani ya IMF.
Na kama Mtei alishindwa kumshawishi Mwalimu alifikiriaje kuwa mzungu wa IMF atafanikiwa? Kwangu hainiingii akilini. Mwalimu alikubali kukutana nao akifiria kuwa it was a courtesy call. Unless kama Mtei alifurahia lugha waliyotumia wale maafisa mbele ya Mwalimu lakini ni wazi kuwa Julius was angry. Ndio maana alikwenda baharini kutuliza hasira. Mtei anakubali kuwa Mwalimu alimwambia aachane nao yet he goes on to host a party for them.
Mwalimu alipotaka kukutana tena na Mtei aliambiwa Mtei ana host party ya maafisa wa IMF That fact is not disputed.
P.S. Naomba uniazime hicho kitabu kama umemaliza kukisoma. Tutafutane basi.

 

[Zakumi]

jokaKuu,
Sijasoma kitabu cha Mtei lakini nashangaa kwa mtu ambaye alifanya kazi na
Mwalimu hakujua vitu ambavyo vinaweza kumuudhi JKN. Yule afisa wa IMF nadhani alikuwa kiongozi wa mission na si afisa mwandamizi ndani ya IMF.
Na kama Mtei alishindwa kumshawishi Mwalimu alifikiriaje kuwa mzungu wa IMF atafanikiwa? Kwangu hainiingii akilini. Mwalimu alikubali kukutana nao akifiria kuwa it was a courtesy call. Unless kama Mtei alifurahia lugha waliyotumia wale maafisa mbele ya Mwalimu lakini ni wazi kuwa Julius was angry. Ndio maana alikwenda baharini kutuliza hasira. Mtei anakubali kuwa Mwalimu alimwambia aachane nao yet he goes on to host a party for them.
Mwalimu alipotaka kukutana tena na Mtei aliambiwa Mtei ana host party ya maafisa wa IMF That fact is not disputed.
P.S. Naomba uniazime hicho kitabu kama umemaliza kukisoma. Tutafutane basi.

Jasusi:

Nipe insight kidogo. Katika miaka hile ni kitu gani kilimfanya Mwalimu kuamini kuwa anawezaku-pull up miracles ya kuisaidia Tanzania ?

Inawezekana Mtei na jamaa wa IMF hawakufuata protocals. Lakini Tanzania na wananchi wana priorities kubwa kuliko rais, waziri mkuu au mtu yoyote yule.

 

[BAK]

Jasusi:

Nipe insight kidogo. Katika miaka hile ni kitu gani kilimfanya Mwalimu kuamini kuwa anawezaku-pull up miracles ya kuisaidia Tanzania ?

Inawezekana Mtei na jamaa wa IMF hawakufuata protocals. Lakini Tanzania na wananchi wana priorities kubwa kuliko rais, waziri mkuu au mtu yoyote yule.

Na Mwalimu kama kiongozi wa nchi hawezi kukubali masharti ya IMF bila kutathmini athari yake kwa uchumi wa nchi na pia kwa hali ya maisha ya Wananchi wake. Na kuthibitisha kwamba Mwalimu alikuwa na haki ya kuyakataa masharti yale ya IMF masharti yale hayakufanikiwa katika nchi yoyote bali yaliongeza ugumu wa maisha kwa kasi kubwa sana.

 

[Mkandara]

Jasusi,
Mkuu wangu hujakisoma kitabu lakini kinajieleza vizuri zaidi kwa kichwa
chake.. yaani somo zima ni toka Mchunga mbuzi na kuwa Gavana!..Ni kitabu kilicholenga zaidi wazungu na mataifa ya nje kwani hilo jina lake tu possiblity ya kutokea hivyo kwa nchi zao ni 1 in a Billioni. Lakini kwetu sisi sote tumetoka huko kila Mdanganyika katokea ktk maisha duni hivyo kichwa cha kitabu hiki hakina mvuto zaidi kwetu kuliko hao walengwa. na ndio maana kimeandikwa kwa kiingereza.

Pili, Jokakuu amesema wazi kwamba swala la mwalimu limechukua page chache sana ktk kitabu chake lakini bado imechukua UZITO mkubwa ktk mazunguzo wa Watanzania ambao sii walengwa. Hivyo, kinachoweza kubeba uzito mkubwa wa kitabu hiki ni maisha ya Mh.Mtei..ambaye alikuwepo wakati wote wa mafanikio ya Ujamaa wa mwalimu.

Kifupi bado tutakuwa tunajiweka ktk wakati mgumu sana kuendelea kuzungumzia watu badala ya kusikiliza hotuba za Mtei mwenyewe wakati huu ambao tunamhitaji sana..Kazungumza mengi sana kutokana na utawala uliopo na mambo yanavyoendelea sasa hivi ambapo Mtei amekosoa almost on every econoimic strategy ya CCM toka Mkapa hadi JK lakini hayazungumziwi kitu isipokuwa tu pale watu wanapoona jina la mwalimu.