Intellect over emotions or emotions over intellect?

[murongo munene]

Tunachojadiliana ni hiki, "The Controller and Auditor-General shall hold office for the fixed term of five years and shall be eligible for renewal for one term only".

Kwa lugha ya sheria unapotumia neno shall inamaana huna uhuru zaidi ya kufanya unalotakiwa na kifungu husika iwapo vifungu vingine vyote vimezingatiwa.



Ni sawa na kusema CAG atadumu ofisini kwa miaka kumi kama vifungu vingine vitazingatiwa (mfano umri wa kustaafu haujafika).

Hakuna CAG Tanzania ambaye kipindi cha kwanza kilipoisha akachaguliwa mwingine. Hii ndiyo mara ya kwanza. Ni historia. Lakini haina maana kwa sababu kitu kimefanyika mara ya kwanza basi ni kosa ila inatuma ujumbe mkubwa juu ya uhuru wa CAG huyu wa sasa na wote wanaofuatia kama hili litakubalika.

Kwa hapa "kinachomfunga" Rais ni neno moja tu, shall. Hii inaweza kuwa sababu watangulizi wake hawakufanya kama alivyofanya yeye.

Ndiyo maana nimeuliza, kwa tafsiri yenu, ingetumika "may" au "shall" kwenu kusingekuwa na tofauti yoyote?

Haya wajameni msaafu huo hapo

 

[The Monk]

Hicho kifungu kipo kwenye sheria(kama niko sahihi)
Lakini hata hiyo miaka 5 atalazimika kumuongezea miaka mingine 5 kama hajafikisha miaka 60/65 kwa mujibu wa katiba..go look it up

Mkuu nimekuelewa sana na hapa najifunza vitu.

Kustaafu, imeainishwa kabisa kwenye katiba kama sababu mojawapo ya CAG kuachia nafasi yake. Hii inamaana hata kama amekalia kiti mwaka, miaka miwili, mitatu au minne, umri wa kisheria wa kustaafu ukifika anaacha kiti.

Sasa hapa tunajadili hili la mihula miwili la miaka mitano mitano. Kwamba hawa wanasheria wasomi hivi hivi waamue tu kusema lazima amchague CAG miaka mingine mitano badala ya kusema kumi bila sababu yeyote ya msingi?

Eligibility si ni kama vigezo au kukidhi matakwa flani? Ambayo ndani ya miaka mitano yanapimwa?

 

[nyabhingi]

Mkuu nimekuelewa sana na hapa najifunza vitu.

Kustaafu, imeainishwa kabisa kwenye katiba kama sababu mojawapo ya CAG kuachia nafasi yake. Hii inamaana hata kama amekalia kiti mwaka, miaka miwili, mitatu au minne, umri wa kisheria wa kustaafu ukifika anaacha kiti.

Sasa hapa tunajadili hili la mihula miwili la miaka mitano mitano. Kwamba hawa wanasheria wasomi hivi hivi waamue tu kusema lazima amchague CAG miaka mingine mitano badala ya kusema kumi bila sababu yeyote ya msingi?

Eligibility si ni kama vigezo au kukidhi matakwa flani? Ambayo ndani ya miaka mitano yanapimwa?

Takwa ni miaka 60/65 au vipindi viwili period
Usisikilize upuuzi wowote wa waoga wa audit ili waibe

 

[BUSH BIN LADEN]

The Controller and Auditor-General shall hold office for the fixed term of five years and shall be eligible for renewal for one term only. This is what it says.

Legally speaking, Shall be eligible just means he/she must be reappointed again.

Sio mwanasheria ila kwa ufaham wangu wa kawaida nilichoelewa hapa ni
kwamba miaka 5 ni fixed(ni lazima amalize miaka 5) ila kama baada ya hii mitano ataongezewa basi isizidi mitano tena. Hakuna panapoonyesha kua mitano ya pili ni lazima. Ni ikiwa ataongezewa mingine mitano basi isizidi mitano. Kama ingekua ni lazima aongezewe mingine mitano nadhani wasingepindisha wangeweka tu "shall hold office for the fixed term of ten years. Nadhani tunakosea kutaka kutafsiri neno kwa neno kutoka english kwa kiswahili badala ya kutafsri sentensi nzima kwa pamoja. Hii sioni kama ina tofauti na sheria ya uchaguzi wa rais. Akimaliza muhula wa kwanza anaruhusiwa kugombea tena ila sio lazima achaguliwe tena ila kama atashinda basi hiki kipindi cha pili basi nacho hakitakiwi kuzidi miaka mitano.

 

[introvert]

I absolutely and totally disagree.

Here’s why:

If shall be eligible means he/ she must be reappointed again, then the text would have read just that, that, the CAG shall/ must be reappointed to another 5 year term. Period, end of it.

The text states just that and this is what I am trying to explain here, that the use of the word shall is as good as using must, if all other factors stand.

This is why I asked if "shall" and "may" are one and the same in the eyes of the law, still unanswered but I see you have used "shall/must" in your text which now gives me hope.

But when the word ‘eligible’ is added, it changes the whole meaning of the text.

The eligibility in the text is with respect to the term in office, such that the CAG must be re-appointed again for the next 5 years BUT if she/he has already served 10 years, then she/he is not eligible for re-appointment.

It gives the appointing authority leeway to choose whoever he/she pleases.

True, only if the CAG is ineligible.

False, if the CAG is eligible.

Now answer this: it is a must for the CAG to serve for 10 years, then why not just make 10 instead of 5 year term?

It is as good as a must, should all other factors remain valid. 2 + 2 and 4 are one and the same. It should be interpreted as it is and not as you would want it to be.

Now please answer my question: is the use of "shall" and "may" one and the same in the eyes of the law with respect to our argument here? If not, then there is no point of us debating, it's over.

 

[The Monk]

Takwa ni miaka 60/65 au vipindi viwili period
Usisikilize upuuzi wowote wa waoga wa audit ili waibe

Basi lugha ya katiba au sheria ni ya hovyo sana.

Kwanini unafikiri wameweka hiyo miaka mitano mitano?

 

[The Monk]

Haja inakuwepo kwa sababu ya umri wa kuhudumu Ofisini.

Kumbuka umri ni mwisho miaka 65, endapo awamu ya kwanza inamalizika na katimiza umri huo hupaswa kustaafu. Kinyume chake, hupewa awamu ya pili kuhudumu.

Kwa hiyo eligibility ni umri wa kustaafu?

 

[The Monk]

Kakojoe ukalale hii mada imekupita ukubwa
Hatudiscuss mikataba ya bad boy na death row hapa
Go hit a club

Utatutoa kwenye darasa bingwa, twende taratibu kistaarabu.

 

[nyabhingi]

Nafikiri ni akili ya chama kimoja kuendana na falsafa ya rais kukaa ikulu miaka mitano mitano
Akili yao ndogo iliwatuma kila rais aje na CAG wake wa kuficha uchafu wake

Basi lugha ya katiba au sheria ni ya hovyo sana.

Kwanini unafikiri wameweka hiyo miaka mitano mitano?
Ndo mana huyu analazimisha kumtoa aweke wakevatakayemremote control

 

[nyabhingi]

Utatutoa kwenye darasa bingwa, twende taratibu kistaarabu.

Huyo monkey anadhani yeye ni gorilla
Hakuna analojua kwenye hii ishu
Anasukumwa na usukuma tu
Akalale au aende kibaruani kama yupo Atlanta,Georgia

 

[Linyakalumbi]

Sio anaweza,ni lazima
Neno shall sio ombi

Ni kweli "shall" ni lazima upo sahihi kabisa. ILA WALAUMU WALIOWEKA/ONGEZEA NENO "ELIGIBILITY" HAO NDIO WALIHARIBU KILA KITU. So Ngabu yupo sahihi na Rais hajakosea. Eligibility maana yake if and only if environment favours you. Bahati mbaya katiba haijataja strong binding factors, ni hisia tu. "CAG is Entitled to FIXED FIVE YEARS, But only Eligible to reappointment". Hapa napo walitakiwa kumu-entitle so tusilaumiane

 

[The Monk]

Nafikiri ni akili ya chama kimoja kuendana na falsafa ya rais kukaa ikulu miaka mitano mitano
Akili yao ndogo iliwatuma kila rais aje na CAG wake wa kuficha uchafu wake

Tukiendelea na katiba ya namna hii hizi vurumai za katiba imevunjwa au haijavunjwa hazitaisha.

Utashi wa aliyeko madarakani utaamua hatma ya nchi.

 

[nyabhingi]

Ni kweli "shall" ni lazima upo sahihi kabisa. ILA WALAUMU WALIOWEKA/ONGEZEA NENO "ELIGIBILITY" HAO NDIO WALIHARIBU KILA KITU. So Ngabu yupo sahihi na Rais hajakosea. Eligibility maana yake if and only if environment favours you. Bahati mbaya katiba haijataja strong binding factors, ni hisia tu. "CAG is Entitled to FIXED FIVE YEARS, But only Eligible to reappointment". Hapa napo walitakiwa kumu-entitle so tusilaumiane

Nipe ibara kwenye katiba inayoongelea eligibility

 

[nyabhingi]

Tukiendelea na katiba ya nsmna hii hizi vurymai za katiba imevunjwa su haijavunjwa hazitaisha.

Utashi wa aliyeko madarakani utaamua hatma ya nchi.

Katiba ipo clear
Inavunjwa tu kusudi

 

[The Monk]

Katiba ipo clear
Inavunjwa tu kusudi

Katiba inayosema miaka mitano mitano badala ya kumi haiwezi kuwa clear mkuu.

 

[introvert]

Angemsimamisha kazi kabla ya miaka mitano au angemuongezea muda wa kukaa kwenye hiyo nafasi baada ya miaka kumi, hata usingehitaji kuniambia maana ya shall kisheria, ingekua wazi katiba imevunjwa, ila hadi sasa, sioni sehem katiba imevunjwa.

Wewe uliyesema "Shall sio lazima asee, it's a strong intention", huwezi kuona katiba ikivunjwa hata ukionyeshwa.

It is painfully difficult to have an intelligent debate where facts and provisions are rubbed off as being irrelevant.

 

[Hercule Poirot]

Ndio, kwa ajili ya awamu ya pili, bila kuathiri vifungu vingine vya Sheria/Katiba.


Hebu fikiria, kama ingekuwa ni maamuzi ya Presida kumuongeza muda CAG au la si mtu angejikomba kwa mkuu ili apate awamu nyingine.

Kwa hiyo eligibility ni umri wa kustaafu?

 

[Hercule Poirot]

We call it confirmation bias

Wewe uliyesema "Shall sio lazima asee, it's a strong intention", huwezi kuona katiba ikivunjwa hata ukionyeshwa.

It is painfully difficult to have an intelligent debate where facts and provisions are rubbed off as being irrelevant.

 

[Jahmercy]

Katiba inaandika kuwa ni lazima aendelee kwa kipindi cha pili na baada ya hapo hataendelea tena na iwapo atafikisha miaka 60 ndani ya hicho kipindi atastaafu...Assad hajafikisha 60

Mkuu kasome vizuri katiba. Hiyo ibara inasema atakua eligible kuteuliwa tena, yana atakua anafaa/ anavigezo/ anastahili. Lakini haisemi ni lazima ateuliwe.

 

[The Monk]

Wewe uliyesema "Shall sio lazima asee, it's a strong intention", huwezi kuona katiba ikivunjwa hata ukionyeshwa.

It is painfully difficult to have an intelligent debate where facts and provisions are rubbed off as being irrelevant.

How can it be relevant Chief, you need to be economic, why don't you just state 10 years? Eligibility matters as well.