Is God fair ?

[a4afrika]

Sijaelewa unacholenga hapa, je ni swali au unaniambia. Kama hutojali nidadavulie zaidi.

Umenipinga as in nature is not omipotence, omniscient etc?

Anaita sasa!

 

[Kiranga]

Sijaelewa unacholenga hapa, je ni swali au unaniambia. Kama hutojali nidadavulie zaidi.

Anaita sasa!

And therein lies your problem.

You are discussing things that are waay out of your depth.

Nimeweka alama ya kuuliza, hujajua kwamba hilo ni swali?

Niambie which major work of philosophical investigation on the nature of god have you read? When did you read it? And why is it noteworthy?

Maana nisije nikawa nabishana na mtu anayeungaunga mambo hapa hata classical arguments hazijui.

Then again, with a name like JingalaFalsafa, what am I expecting?

 

[PlanckScale]

Nishamjibu Kiranga na wewe kama utapenda fuatilia huu mjadala vizuri utaona ni kwa namna gani nimeonesha Mungu yupo, unaposema ukiapply something to Universe then it should apply to Mungu ni kuwa na muono mfupi kwamba Mungu na Universe ni two beings with the same nature. Wewe kinachokufanya udhani Mungu na Universe wana tabia zinazofanana ni nini?

Wewe kama binadamu ndie uliye muumba huyo mungu na kisha ukampa sifa ambazo zina mfanya awe complex na nje ya dunia ili wenye fikra za udadisi wasijaribu kumpi kuwepo kwake.

Well, not so fast brother...
Let us assume that this mystical god of yours really exist. Then according to your belief system, it [god] must have interacted in our physical world, which implies that there has to be traces of its interaction that we can be investigated through scientific methods and prove its presence. Therefore, while you may claim that god is "necessary" unseen and out of "our nature", one can still infer its existence through its interactions with the PHYSICAL WORLD.

Currently, no scientific method has pointed to the existence of GOD

It can be easily shown with logical argument the Universe can not exist on its own. It can't just show up because of the very nature of the universe which brings us to realize there is a creator aka Mungu. On the other hand kama utatumia logic kumkana Mungu kwa hoja kwamba kama universe ni complex basi Mungu ni more complex hivyo nae anahitaji muumbaji utajikuta unaspiral kwenye infinite loop which if true it means the Universe does not exist but it is HERE which means the Ultimate creator is not created implying his nature is not that of the universe. Upo hapo?

halafu huna haja ya kumsemea Kiranga yuko humu anaweza kusema yeye mwenyewe.

What logic can show that the universe could not exist on its own?
Our modern understanding of the concept of emptiness, nothingness, and vacuum has dramatically changed due to advancement in modern physics. What we used to define as empty/vacuum in classical physical has been radically disputed by the modern physics, which has shows that a vacuum state is full of energy with particle coming in and out of existence spontaneously. Furthermore, quantum mechanics allow for reaction without action! Yes, that is right. Reaction without action. (By the way, modern physics refers to quantum mechanics, while classical physics refers to the Newtonian mechanics, electromagnetic, non Quantized physics).

Therefore, you must always be caution of using your logical intuition to make assertion about the physical world without having a good understanding of current scientific understanding. Current physics has demonstrated the possibility of something coming from "nothing". This concept is very strange to a human mind for one very important reason; Our mind never involved to perceive quantum interactions. All our understandings and perceptions have evolved to adapt on a macroscopic worldview. However, using scientific methodology, coupled with its mathematical language, one can free oneself from the macroscopic worldview limitation and achieve a better understanding of the natural world, doing so without having to invoking superstitious belief.

Therefore stop make logical assumptions about cause and effect. god is not a necessary priori!

...On the other hand kama utatumia logic kumkana Mungu kwa hoja kwamba kama universe ni complex basi Mungu ni more complex hivyo nae anahitaji muumbaji utajikuta unaspiral kwenye infinite loop ....

That is the exact problem Kiranga is trying to explain to you. Mme muumba mungu ili kujibu swali la nani kaumba ulimwengu. But what you are doing is shifting the problem from the universe and put god as an answer. But by doing that you are also creating a new problem "who created god". And then you are shutting us down from probing this question by hiding god away from any scientific investigation with the claim that he/she/it is outside of our physical world and therefore cannot be investigated.

What religion do so well (and violently) is to insist that YOU SHOULD NOT QUESTION WHO CREATED GOD by making such questioning blasphemy! Yaani mnatishia kwa hali ya juu udadisi wowote ili watu wasistukie huo uwongo. Watu wadini wanaaanza hiyo kampaini ya kuua fikra za udadisi toka ukiwa mtoto, so that when you grow up you cannot question anything; a kind of mental castration...

In short, god does not explain creation, but creates another problem of its own creation, which then leads to infinitely looping questions. It is much better to continue investigating our existence with the best tools we have so far - science.

What we don't know today, our children will know in the future. Hamna haja ya kutunga uongo na kujipa false hope.

 

[mjasiria]

Your god is simply not logically consistent.

He has so many contradictions and character flaws to actually exist.

My God?! Do you know who my God is? So you seem to have a presumption of God and his character. why don't you drop all the baggage you have been carrying all along about God and lets start afresh. Can you do that?

Otherwise you might wanna show the so called contradictions and character flaws to validate your claim and that is assuming you even know who my God is.

 

[Kiranga]

My God?! Do you know who my God is? So you seem to have a presumption of God and his character. why don't you drop all the baggage you have been carrying all along about God and lets start afresh. Can you do that?

Otherwise you might wanna show the so called contradictions and character flaws to validate your claim and that is assuming you even know who my God is.

What are the characteristics of your god, since you are so bent on me not getting your god right.

Could you name them?

 

[Kiranga]

Wewe kama binadamu ndie uliye muumba huyo mungu na kisha ukampa sifa ambazo zina mfanya awe complex na nje ya dunia ili wenye fikra za udadisi wasijaribu kumpi kuwepo kwake.

Well, not so fast brother...
Let us assume that this mystical god of yours really exist. Then according to your belief system, it [god] must have interacted in our physical world, which implies that there has to be traces of its interaction that we can be investigated through scientific methods and prove its presence. Therefore, while you may claim that god is "necessary" unseen and out of "our nature", one can still infer its existence through its interactions with the PHYSICAL WORLD.

Currently, no scientific method has pointed to the existence of GOD





What logic can show that the universe could not exist on its own?
Our modern understanding of the concept of emptiness, nothingness, and vacuum has dramatically changed due to advancement in modern physics. What we used to define as empty/vacuum in classical physical has been radically disputed by the modern physics, which has shows that a vacuum state is full of energy with particle coming in and out of existence spontaneously. Furthermore, quantum mechanics allow for reaction without action! Yes, that is right. Reaction without action. (By the way, modern physics refers to quantum mechanics, while classical physics refers to the Newtonian mechanics, electromagnetic, non Quantized physics).

Therefore, you must always be caution of using your logical intuition to make assertion about the physical world without having a good understanding of current scientific understanding. Current physics has demonstrated the possibility of something coming from "nothing". This concept is very strange to a human mind for one very important reason; Our mind never involved to perceive quantum interactions. All our understanding and perception of the physical world have evolved to adapt on a macroscopic worldview. However, using scientific methodology, coupled with its mathematical language, one can free oneself from this macroscopic worldview limitation and achieve a better understanding of the natural world. And doing so without invoking superstetious belie

Therefore stop make logical assumptions about cause and effect. god is not a necessary priori!



That is the exact problem Kiranga is trying to explain to you. Mme muumba mungu ili kujibu swali la nani kaumba ulimwengu. But what you are doing is shifting the problem from the universe and put god as an answer. But by doing that you are also creating a new problem "who created god". But then you are shutting us down from probing this question. You are trying to hide god away from any scientific investigation by claiming that he/she/it is outside of the universe and the physical world and therefore cannot be investigated.

What religion do so well (and violently) is to insist that YOU SHOULD NOT QUESTION WHO CREATED GOD by making such questioning blasphemy! Yaani mnatishia kwa hali ya juu udadisi wowote ili watu wasistukie huo uwongo. Watu wadini wanaaanza hiyo kampaini ya kuua fikra za udadisi toka ukiwa mtoto, so that when you grow up you cannot question anything; a kind of mental castrated...

In short, god does not explain creation, but creates another problem of its own creation, which then leads to infinitely looping questions. It is much better to continue investigating our existence with the best tools we have so far - science.

What we don't know today, our children will know in the future. Hamna haja ya kutunga uongo na kujipa false hope.

Tatizo hapa utaandika habari za quantum Physics watu wengine hata kujua kwamba dunia inazunguka jua na jua halizunguki dunia hawajajua.

Hiyo habari ya "mungu yupo nje ya universe/ what we can understand" is bizarre. Kama mungu yuko beyond the human realm, na huyo anayekwambia hivyo ni binadamu, yeye kajuaje kwamba mungu yuko unreachable? Kwanza kwa nini mungu ajifanye awe unreachable? Anaogopa nini mpaka ajifiche?

Hii habari ya kusema mungu yupo outside of the realm of human accessibility/ universe inanikumbusha Wagiriki wa kale na michezo yao ya kuigiza.

Wagiriki wa kale walipenda sana michezo ya kuigiza, lakini mwanzo kabisa, kabla waandishi wao hawajawa very sophisticated, wengi walikuwa wanaandika michezo ambayo inakuja kuwa so complex, baadaye wanashindwa kufanya a realistic conclusion. Sasa ili kufanya hitimisho mchezo uishe, wakawa wana a certain literary device, wenyewe wanaiita "deus ex machina".

Muandishi akishindwa kuumaliza mchezo logically, anatumia hii device ya "deus ex machina" which means "a god from a machine" ilikuwa wanashusha sanamu la mungu wa mbao. Plot imekuwa so complex, muandishi kachoka/kashindwa kuimaliza, anamshusha mungu wa mbao, mungu wa mbao anafanya chochote. kama star kauawa basi star anafufuliwa na kuungana na ndugu zake etc Ili mradi kuwe na a happy ending.

Sasa hawa wanaosema mungu ni mjuzi wa yote na yuko nje ya universe tunayoweza kuifikia wanarudia literary plot ile ile ya "deus ex machina".

Mungu aliye nje ya universe anaweza kufanya chochote na usiweze kuuliza kitu.Utaulizaje wakati yuko unreachable nje ya universe huko?

Deus ex machina hizi zimejaa katika waamini wa mungu.

To a ridiculously contradictory extent. Kama mungu angekuwapo na angekuwa nje ya universe kweli, hata wasingejua kwamba mungu yupo.

Na kwa vile wao ni wanadamu na hawana uwezo wa kujua kilicho nje ya universe kwa sasa, kusema kwamba mungu yupo nje ya universe ni skullduggery tu.

 

[PlanckScale]

Tatizo hapa utaandika habari za quantum Physics watu wengine hata kujua kwamba dunia inazunguka jua na jua halizunguki dunia hawajajua.

Hiyo habari ya "mungu yupo nje ya universe/ what we can understand" is bizarre. Kama mungu yuko beyond the human realm, na huyo anayekwambia hivyo ni binadamu, yeye kajuaje kwamba mungu yuko unreachable? Kwanza kwa nini mungu ajifanye awe unreachable? Anaogopa nini mpaka ajifiche?

Hii habari ya kusema mungu yupo outside of the realm of human accessibility/ universe inanikumbusha Wagiriki wa kale na michezo yao ya kuigiza.

Wagiriki wa kale walipenda sana michezo ya kuigiza, lakini mwanzo kabisa, kabla waandishi wao hawajawa very sophisticated, wengi walikuwa wanaandika michezo ambayo inakuja kuwa so complex, baadaye wanashindwa kufanya a realistic conclusion. Sasa ili kufanya hitimisho mchezo uishe, wakawa wana a certain literary device, wenyewe wanaiita "deus ex machina".

Muandishi akishindwa kuumaliza mchezo logically, anatumia hii device ya "deus ex machina" which means "a god from a machine" ilikuwa wanashusha sanamu la mungu wa mbao. Plot imekuwa so complex, muandishi kachoka/kashindwa kuimaliza, anamshusha mungu wa mbao, mungu wa mbao anafanya chochote. kama star kauawa basi star anafufuliwa na kuungana na ndugu zake etc Ili mradi kuwe na a happy ending.

Sasa hawa wanaosema mungu ni mjuzi wa yote na yuko nje ya universe tunayoweza kuifikia wanarudia literary plot ile ile ya "deus ex machina".

Mungu aliye nje ya universe anaweza kufanya chochote na usiweze kuuliza kitu.Utaulizaje wakati yuko unreachable nje ya universe huko?

Deus ex machina hizi zimejaa katika waamini wa mungu.

To a ridiculously contradictory extent. Kama mungu angekuwapo na angekuwa nje ya universe kweli, hata wasingejua kwamba mungu yupo.

Na kwa vile wao ni wanadamu na hawana uwezo wa kujua kilicho nje ya universe kwa sasa, kusema kwamba mungu yupo nje ya universe ni skullduggery tu.

hapo umenimaliza!!!
Sooooo funny, yet very true within the religious realm!

 

[PlanckScale]

My God?! Do you know who my God is? So you seem to have a presumption of God and his character. why don't you drop all the baggage you have been carrying all along about God and lets start afresh. Can you do that?

Otherwise you might wanna show the so called contradictions and character flaws to validate your claim and that is assuming you even know who my God is.

Mkuu, naomba umfafanue vizuri huyo mungu wako, especially kama nitofauti na yule wa Ibrahimic religions (Islam, Christian, and Judaism).


Thanks

 

[Nonda]

Mimi kutokuwa na jibu haina maana kwamba jibu lolote utakalonipa wewe ni sahihi hata kabla hatujalichambua.

Unaweza kuniuliza "what is the square root of two?"

....
Unaweza kututhibitishia kwamba mungu yupo?

Hujui kitu halafu uchambue?

Kwako wewe mungu ni nini au nani?

 

[a4afrika]

Haya yote yametoka wapi?
Tings out of my depth, kuwa muungajiungaji, na jinga, n.k vyote hapo kama mimi ninavyo basi nawe pia, kwani kwa muda wote huu usingetumia kujadiliana na mtu wa aina hiyo, ila tu kama mnafanana au amekuzidi maarifa.

And therein lies your problem.

You are discussing things that are waay out of your depth.

Nimeweka alama ya kuuliza, hujajua kwamba hilo ni swali?

Niambie which major work of philosophical investigation on the nature of god have you read? When did you read it? And why is it noteworthy?

Maana nisije nikawa nabishana na mtu anayeungaunga mambo hapa hata classical arguments hazijui.

Then again, with a name like JingalaFalsafa, what am I expecting?

Huku ni kukwepa hoja ya msingi! Hivi ulishawahi kujiuliza hizo philosophical investigation na classical arguements kama zipo vichwani mwa binadamu au wanyama? Usijidunishe kwa Bookish knowledge yako. Baki kwenye hoja ya msingi. Maarifa yangu juu ya Mungu hayakutegemea vitabu na maandishi, WEWE NDIO WA KWANZA HUMU KUTAMKA NENO NATURE NA LAWS & FORCES ZAKE KAMA KITU KILICHOFANYA ULIMWENGU UTOKEE, NILICHOFANYA NI KUKUONESHA KUWA HICHO UKIITACHO ASILI HAKINA TOFAUTI NA KILE NIKIITACHO MUNGU! Ulitaka hadi aandike nani? Mzungu au Mandela? Nyerere au Obama?
USIPOKANA KUITAMBUA NATURE BASI HUNA MLANGO WA KUTOKEA!
Anaita sasa!

 

[Nonda]

Hujaandika kama mtu mwenye akili.

Umeandika kama mtu anayeogopa kutumia akili zake na kuangalia wengine wamefanya nini.

Huwezi ku prove kisichopo hakipo.

Kwa sababu hakipo ili kiweze kuwa proved kwamba hakipo.

Wewe unazo akili?

Wewe ni mtu mwenye akili?

Kama unazo umezipata kutoka wapi?

 

[Kiranga]

Wewe unazo akili?

Wewe ni mtu mwenye akili?

Kama unazo umezipata kutoka wapi?

As to whether nina akili au sina, that's for you to say. I can't tell you nina akili or not. Expecting an honest self appraisal from me is unintelligent enough to shun your very question as farcical.

Because of that, the second part doesn't even begin to feature as one, because on top of all the above said, its fundaments rests on the assumption that I will plead my case tgat I am intelligent.

 

[Kiranga]

Hujui kitu halafu uchambue?

Kwako wewe mungu ni nini au nani?

I am afraid the nuance is lost on you. That extrapolation, mathematical similes, dry and enriched metaphors do not even begin to register in your densely clogged mind. Or if they do, you are just so good at playing plain old stupid that we cant even tell the difference. For whatever nefarious and medieval ideo-religious persuasions illogic of non-thinking.

 

[Wickama]

Mkuu, naomba umfafanue vizuri huyo mungu wako, especially kama nitofauti na yule wa Ibrahimic religions (Islam, Christian, and Judaism).


Thanks

great stuff PlanckScale, Mungu nayemwamini mimi ni yule alikufanya wewe uwe na mikono na macho na sehemu za siri kama Kiranga.

kuna contradictions?

cc mjasiria

 

[Kiranga]

great stuff PlanckScale, Mungu nayemwamini mimi ni yule alikufanya wewe uwe na mikono na macho na sehemu za siri kama Kiranga.

kuna contradictions?

cc mjasiria

Kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote kaachia watoto karibu 140 wauliwe na waTaliban huko Pakistan?

Kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote kaachia maelfu ya waAfrica wafe kwa Ebola huko Guinea, Sierra leone na Liberia?

Kwa nini anatubania wakati ana uwezo wote wa kuzuia haya, ana upendo wote wa kuzuia haya na hakuna wa kumzuia kuzuia haya?

 

[La Princesa]

Kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote kaachia watoto karibu 140 wauliwe na waTaliban huko Pakistan?

Kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote kaachia maelfu ya waAfrica wafe kwa Ebola huko Guinea, Sierra leone na Liberia?

Kwa nini anatubania wakati ana uwezo wote wa kuzuia haya, ana upendo wote wa kuzuia haya na hakuna wa kumzuia kuzuia haya?

Nimejifunza kitu wakati mwingine Mungu hurusu vitu fulani fulani vitokee katika maisha ili sifa,utukufu na Ukuu wake uonekane

wakati mwingine huruhus mambo haya yatokee kwa sababu tunakuwa tumemsahau so Yakikukuta automatically utajikuta unamkumbuka....ila mambo haya yamekaa kiimani...bila imani hutaweza kupata concept kamili

 

[Wickama]

Kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote kaachia watoto karibu 140 wauliwe na waTaliban huko Pakistan?

Kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote na upendo wote kaachia maelfu ya waAfrica wafe kwa Ebola huko Guinea, Sierra leone na Liberia?

Kwa nini anatubania wakati ana uwezo wote wa kuzuia haya, ana upendo wote wa kuzuia haya na hakuna wa kumzuia kuzuia haya?

Kiranga, faida ya vifo ni species kuwacha nafasi for next and generational continuity. Ila ingekuwa illogical kama mauti yangekuwa kwa watu wenye umri wa 71 yrs tuuu

Ingekuwa illogical pia kama wewe una tumbo kichwani na mwenzio PlanckScale angekuwa na tumbo miguuni.

Kwa taarifa ebola haijauwa watu kama ajali za boda boda/magari/mabasi across the same continent/countries na ni wa umri wote inclusive hao vichanga wanaokutoa machozi, nashindwa kuelewa msingi wa mapenzi yako na marehemu wa ebola kuzidi ya wale waliokufa kwa ajali unatoa wapi. wewe ndio illogical.

cc mjasiria,

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga, faida ya vifo ni species kuwacha nafasi for next and generational continuity. Ila ingekuwa illogical kama mauti yangekuwa kwa watu wenye umri wa 71 yrs tuuu

Ingekuwa illogical pia kama wewe una tumbo kichwani na mwenzio PlanckScale angekuwa na tumbo miguuni.

Kwa taarifa ebola haijauwa watu kama ajali za boda boda/magari/mabasi across the same continent/countries na ni wa umri wote inclusive hao vichanga wanaokutoa machozi, nashindwa kuelewa msingi wa mapenzi yako na marehemu wa ebola kuzidi ya wale waliokufa kwa ajali unatoa wapi. wewe ndio illogical.

cc mjasiria,

Mungu alishindwa kuumba ulimwengu ambao hauna tatizo la nafasi na watu hawafi?

Kama Ebola haijauwa watu kama ajali, basi mungu ni mshenzi zaidi. Ebola ni mfano mdogo tu, sijui unaelewa maana ya mfano ni nini? Kwamba siwezi kuongelea kila namna ambayo naweza kumshitaki huyo mungu kwa kuachia mabaya yaendelee wakati ana uwezo wa kuyamaliza, nimetumia mfano mmoja mdogo tu ulio katika headline sasa hivi.

Sasa ukisoma kwa kichwapanzi unaweza kuona nimeishia kwenye Ebola, wakati mungu huyu aliachia NAZI waue Jews milioni 6, aliachia waafrika kwa makumi ya milioni waende kuuzwa utumwani, aliachia tsunami iue watu kwa mafungu huko Asian, na kadhalika.

Kwa nini kaumba ulimwengu uliojaa mabaya hivi wakati alikuwa na uwezo wa kuumba ulimwengu ambao mabaya hayawezekani?

Hujanijibu swali hili.

Mimi namtuhumu kwa vifo elfu kadhaa wewe unaniambia hivyo vidogo, kaua mamilioni, huo si utetezi, unamzidishia makosa.

 

[Kiranga]

Nimejifunza kitu wakati mwingine Mungu hurusu vitu fulani fulani vitokee katika maisha ili sifa,utukufu na Ukuu wake uonekane

wakati mwingine huruhus mambo haya yatokee kwa sababu tunakuwa tumemsahau so Yakikukuta automatically utajikuta unamkumbuka....ila mambo haya yamekaa kiimani...bila imani hutaweza kupata concept kamili

Kwa nini mungu mwenye uwezo wote, ujuzi wote, upendo wote na uwepo pote ahitaji sifa?

Ukiniambia Mwigulu Nchemba anatafuta sifa, nitaelewa.

Ukiniambia Idi Amin alitafuta sifa, nitaelewa.

Ukiniambia Jakaya Kikwete anatafuta sifa, nitaelewa.

Hawa wote ni wanadamu wasio na ukamilifu, wana haja za kusifiwa, wana egotistical minds.

Mungu, the perfect being, kwa nini anahitaji sifa kutoka kwa vinyangarika aliowaumba yeye mwenyewe?

Huyu mungu wako ana inferiority complex kiasi cha kuhitaji kusifiwa?

Na yeye anasema "Do I look fat in these jeans?" akingojea kuambiwa "No sir god, you look fabulous".

 

[Elizabeth Dominic]

Mungu alishindwa kuumba ulimwengu ambao hauna tatizo la nafasi na watu hawafi?

Kama Ebola haijauwa watu kama ajali, basi mungu ni mshenzi zaidi. Ebola ni mfano mdogo tu, sijui unaelewa maana ya mfano ni nini? Kwamba siwezi kuongelea kila namna ambayo naweza kumshitaki huyo mungu kwa kuachia mabaya yaendelee wakati ana uwezo wa kuyamaliza, nimetumia mfano mmoja mdogo tu ulio katika headline sasa hivi.

Sasa ukisoma kwa kichwapanzi unaweza kuona nimeishia kwenye Ebola, wakati mungu huyu aliachia NAZI waue Jews milioni 6, aliachia waafrika kwa makumi ya milioni waende kuuzwa utumwani, aliachia tsunami iue watu kwa mafungu huko Asian, na kadhalika.

Kwa nini kaumba ulimwengu uliojaa mabaya hivi wakati alikuwa na uwezo wa kuumba ulimwengu ambao mabaya hayawezekani?

Hujanijibu swali hili.

Mimi namtuhumu kwa vifo elfu kadhaa wewe unaniambia hivyo vidogo, kaua mamilioni, huo si utetezi, unamzidishia makosa.

Ni vigumu saa nyingine kupata majibu