Nyani Ngabu
Platinum Member
- May 15, 2006
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nataka hapa niungane na Marehemu Dr.Walter Rhodney, ambaye aliweka wazi kuwa kwa tamaduni za kiafrika zilivyokuwa karne ya 15 na 16,ziliwawezesha Waafrika kupiga hatua kubwa za kimaendeleo kwa wakati huo kuliko hata nchi za Ulaya,kumbuka hata mapinduzi ya viwanda yalikuwa bado Uingereza,tayari waafrika walikuwa na system nzuri za utawala...mfano tawala kama za Ghana, Mali, Timbuktu... Mwanamutapa, Congo, Zulu... Maghreb, zilishakuwa na hata mifumo ya taaluma na sayansi na hisabati ambazo wazungu walipokuja walizikuta mfano kama Algebra zilikuwa maarufu Afrika Magharibi kabla ya kuja wazungu.
On the other hand Taifa lililoendelea zaidi duniani na lenye nguvu zaidi limejengwa kutoka katika misingi ya kuamini juu ya Mungu huyo! Kwao huyo Mungu hakuwa kikwazo cha maendeleo bali ndio sababu hasa ya maendeleo hayo.
Mungu ain't got nothing to do with development. Development is brought about by the people and for the people.
Kama unakusudia kusema maneno yuangu ni porojo, porojo zaidi ni kuzisema hizi porojo bila kuonyesha porojo ilipo.
No research, no data, no right to speak.
Tuonyeshe porojo iko wapi tuone.
Ama sivyo maneno yako "Hizi mbona ni porojo tu" yanaweza kuwa ndiyo porojo kubwa kabisa katika thread hii.
Hebu tupatie kwanza hiyo "research" na "data" uliyofanya wewe kuhusu matamshi yako.
Now World History may not be my forte, but its clear neither do you have any credible authority in the field. Un-nuanced, sweeping statements and assertions you've come up with i.e., "tulikuwa sawa" au "tulikuwa almost sawa" "actually ulaya wameanza kuendelea baada ya kuacha kuamini mungu" come across as too simplistic, utterly meaningless and lack proper historical context even to novices like myself.
Mazee wewe unaye dispute unatakiwa kuja na data hapa. Mimi nishatoa kitu kiko testable na disputable, kama sivyo tuonyeshe ndivyo ni vipi.
Ni kueleweshana, maana hata mimi sina monopoly ya ukweli, inawezekana ni kweli ninachoamini si kweli.
Lakini huwezi kunionyesha ukweli kwa kuniomba data miye niliye na wrong thought, nionyeshe weye zako zilizo right zinasemaje.
Mimi sijasema mtazamo wako ni potofu (au pengine mtazamo wangu ni sahihi) kuhusu hili suala, ila nimekwambia uliyoandika ni pumba kwa kukosa umakini na uhakika unaotegemewa kwa mtu yeyote anayefuatilia mada hii.
Hayo masuala ya "data", "research", "disputable", "testable" "wrong thought" na mengineyo umeleta wewe, na ndiyo maana nimekuomba utufafanulie maana ya matamshi yako fulani uliyoandika hapo juu na kutupatia "data" na "research" zinazotetea msimamo wako.
Kwa kumalizia: Kamwe Kipofu hawezi kumwonyesha njia Kipofu mwenzie. Hatushindani hapa kaka aka "mental Jujitsu master".
Jamii inaongozwa na ujumla wa mifumo na taratibu zinazoathiriwa na belief systems ( imani za kidini, mila, desturi, haki na uhuru wa kujieleza au kudai haki etc).
Nchi nyingi hasa za Kiafrika zimeshikilia sana imani ( za kidini au kimila) kama nguzo za jamii zao na kuwa na kiwango kidogo cha uhuru wa mawazo au hata kudai haki mbalimbali..nchi hizi nyingi hujikuta zina maendeleo hafifu. Nchi kama Sweden au Uholanzi ambazo hutoa uhuru mwingi kwa wananchi wake..kuna haki za watoto na wanawake za kiwango cha kutisha - zimepiga hatua kubwa kimaendeleo....Kwa maneno mengine... kadiri jamii inavyoshikilia mila ( traditions) ndivyo kiwango cha maendeleo kinavyokuwa chini..
je, ina maana mila, desturi au hata imani za kidini hudumaza maendeleo?
Angalia factors zilizofanya Ulaya iiache Africa, watu kwenda safari long range baharini Columbus ka cross the Atlantic 1492, wide usage of gunpowder in the 1500's, the employment of scientific research and branching of astronomy from astrology (Tycho Brahe, Copernicus Galileo etc) and Chemistry from Alchemy a bit later in the 1600's.
Kabla ya 1500 Europe ilikuwahaijapata mwanga wa the Renaissance, Henry VIII alikuwa haja endorse reformation Uingereza kuondoa makucha ya Papa na kuanzisha Church of England, pole pole kuondoa minyororo ya imani za authority za watu na mungu. Tungepigana vita na Waingereza/ Wazungu chances are tungepigana na mapanga, na wasingekuwa na advantage ya gunpowder, lakini there is a reason wazungu hawakufika Africa yetu in the year 1000, hawakuwa na organization wala uelewa wa dunia uliotakiwa, na meli zao hazikuwa equipped kupiga masafa. Polepole kati ya AD 1000 na 1500 ndipo wakaanza kutuacha, kufikia 1500 ikawa for sure wao wanaendelea katika a sort of geometric progression na sisi tuko stagnant katika arithmetic progression, if at all, if you will.
Renaissance pia, hususan ilivyoanza Italy miaka ya 1500, largely financed by the Medicis ilichochea kufumuka kwa a banking system iliyoweza ku finance trade na hizi expedition companies kwenda kutafuta makoloni.Kabla ya hapo Europe hakukuwa na mfumo wa banking uliokuwa sophisticated kuruhusu big projects na credit system, an impediment to trade and imperialist conquest. Niall Fergusson kaliongelea hili vizuri sana katika kitabu chake cha mwaka 2008 "The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of The World"
Katika kitabu chake "Science: A History 1543-2001" John Gribbin, the british writer and Cambridge astrophysicist details how Europe moved out of the dark ages in the 1500's with the pioneering scientific community that paved the way for the Newtons, Darwins and Einsteins of later years.If you trace the history of nuclear technology or electricity you will see that Africa and Europe were equally in the dark circa 1500, even the dreamers and Science fiction visionaries (Verne, Wells, Poe, Clarke and even Asimov) did not emerge until much later.But from the 1500'sEurope employed critical thought and Science rigorously while Africa went to sleep.
In his seminal tour de force of a tome "Europe: A History" Norman Davies details how by 1500 Europe was wallowing in superstitions, witchcraft, alchemy, astrology and countless regional wars, inquisitions and a host of other rituals that less politically correct people would characterize as "pagan animism" not unlike Africa if not even worse. One only has to read Nostradamus to see how ridiculous the medieval Europe was, and how common it was for European courts to employ charlatans like him for divination, not unlike something that a Mirambo or Mkwawa would have done.Nowadays they are employing satellite technology to probe every square metre of the earth, while Jakaya is probably employing the services of Sheikh Yahya and his ilk from Mlingotini. In tese past 500 or so years, the Europeans developed from astrology to 10 day weather forecasting, while if not for importing their technology we would still be dealing with traditional rainmakers, in fact I am sure some people in rural Tanzania still do. OK so making rain is still quite a challenge, but they can forecast and prepare at least by 10 days, and they can see long term patterns.
The Gutenberg Bible was not even printed until 1455, and up to then reading was a rarity for princes and the elite, and books extremely expensive, the Gutenberg technology of printing proved instrumental in raising the readership of Europe. Prior to this technology arguably Africans, especially those with their own written languages such as the Coptic, were at the same reading level as Europeans. Even in Cromwell's Puritan England people were still wallowing in books of magic and ancient prophecies.
On top of all, your attack, without enquiring the context of my statement is at best premature or even misguided.Because matters of history may be deemed differently in different context - History is not an exact science, in fact it is not a science at all- and this is why I was so keen to see your take on my position, because sometimes, as that venerable Norwegian physicist Niels Bohr said, the opposite of a great truth can be another great truth, depending on the context and frame of reference.
You may be basing your observations in the root of Euclidean geometry, while I am not using those axioms.Obviously we would not be able to see eye to eye and therefore we would famously "not relate".
You can present your side of this matter, if you so please.
Hiyo "mental Jujitsu master" isikukondeshe, ni manjonjo ya kutafuta worthy challenges hapa tu.
Na so far sijaona kutoka kwako, hata kama unakimbilia "hatushindani" ukishasema sijatoa a convincing case tayari ni mashindano ya aina fulani utake usitake.
You know you are the "Pope" if not the "Jujitsu master" of this ish when the anti-Pope, a.k.a Da Dude, attacks you for sheer relaxation.
misingi ya kawaida unayotaka mtoto alelewe ndiyo misingi ya mzazi wake na alwayz inahusisha njia bora ya maisha ni bayana na imani kwa Mungu wa kweli kadiri ya imani ya mzazi................mzazi anayempenda mtoto wake hawezi kumuamini Mungu kisha akamuacha mtoto wake kipenzi aishi maisha yasiyompendeza Mungu (kadiri ya imani yake) hadi atakapokuwa mkubwa aamue mwenyewe!!!!!!!!!!! itakuwa ajabu kubwa na hatari..................
kama ingekuwa watoto wapaswa kuachwa huru waamue wenyewe wakiwa wakubwa kamwe tusingewafundisha kuamkia wakubwa hadi watakapouwa wakubwa waamue wenyewe............ hata shule wasingepelekwa hadi wawe wakubwa waamue wenyewe............ hata kuvaa nguo tusingewafundisha .............nk. nk..... na mabo yote ya adabu, heshima na utii nk tusingewafundisha na tungewaacha hadi wawe wakubwa waamue wenyewe kujifunza ama la.................... itakuwa hatari kubwa hakika....................
malezi ya watoto ni moja ya masuala magumu na yasiyotabirika matokeo yake hapa duniani................ kuna watoto wamekosa malezi, wakakulia mitaani lakini wakawa raia wema sana wenye matendo mazuri sana yanayompendeza Mungu na wanadamu............... wakati huohuo kuna wale waliolelewa katika maadili mema na wakatokea kuwa wahuni na waovu hata kukatisha tamaa wazazina jamii kwa ujumla............. lakini kama una mtoto/watoto utakuwa unanielewa vizuri............... hata hivyo vyovyote iwavyo........... the goal of every aprent ni kumlea mtoto wake katika missingi amabayo yeye mwenyewe (mzazi) anaamini mtoto ataongezeka umri na kimo na atampendeza Mungu na mwanadamu..................
nilitaka kukusaidia hapo tu, niliona kama unavuka mstari.............
Chukulia Mzazi anayeamrisha Mtoto aende Sunday School au Madrass, ili iwe nini? Kwa nini Mtoto huyu asipewe Uhuru wa kuhiari anachotaka alimradi analelewa katika misingi ya kawaida ya kijamii inayomfanya awe muadilifu, mchapa kazi na mwenye kujua mipaka?
This has got to be one of the most ridiculous claims ever..that we (Africans) were more developed than Europe during the 15th and 16th centuries.
Huyo Rodney wenu hoja zake zimejikita ktk kutokujionesha kuwa duni ilhali hali halisi inapingana na hoja zake. Haingii akilini eti tulikuwa tumeendelea zaidi au tulikuwa sawa kimaendeleo halafu wao (wazungu) wakaja wakatulostisha na tokea hapo hatuja recover kabisa. This makes no sense.
Wakatuletea dini na sisi tukazikumbatia. Wakatuletea so called ustaarabu na sisi tukaukumbatia. Wakatuletea lugha tukazikumbatia. Wakatuletea elimu tukaikumbatia. Wakatuletea mambo mengine lukuki (likiwemo kulana denda-french kiss) na sisi hao kichwa kichwa tutayakumbatia. Juu ya yote hayo wakaja wakatutawala kimabavu. Wakagawiana bara letu kama vile ni mali yao binafsi, na sisi tulivyo wajinga tukakaa tu tukiwatazama na kuwasubiri.
Sasa mtu eti aje na hoja ya kudai kuwa tulikuwa sawa au kuwazidi kimaendeleo mimi nitamwona kachanganyikiwa tu. Maendeleo ni pamoja na kuamka kifikra na kuwa mwerevu. Sasa ni maendeleo gani hayo tuliyokuwa nayo wakati wenzetu walikuwa werevu zaidi kutushinda sisi?
Jamii inaongozwa na ujumla wa mifumo na taratibu zinazoathiriwa na belief systems ( imani za kidini, mila, desturi, haki na uhuru wa kujieleza au kudai haki etc).
Nchi nyingi hasa za Kiafrika zimeshikilia sana imani ( za kidini au kimila) kama nguzo za jamii zao na kuwa na kiwango kidogo cha uhuru wa mawazo au hata kudai haki mbalimbali..nchi hizi nyingi hujikuta zina maendeleo hafifu. Nchi kama Sweden au Uholanzi ambazo hutoa uhuru mwingi kwa wananchi wake..kuna haki za watoto na wanawake za kiwango cha kutisha - zimepiga hatua kubwa kimaendeleo....Kwa maneno mengine... kadiri jamii inavyoshikilia mila ( traditions) ndivyo kiwango cha maendeleo kinavyokuwa chini..
je, ina maana mila, desturi au hata imani za kidini hudumaza maendeleo?
mengi tunazungumza lakini yapo ya msingi tunayadharau
au hatuelewi ni vipi yanatuhusu kwenye maendeleo...
moja la msingi ni matumizi ya lugha kwenye elimu na maarifa.
tazama nchi kama china,japan,korea na kadhalika utakuta
walichukua knowledge yote waliyoipata kutoka west
wakaitafsiri kwenye lugha zao na kujiendeleza zaidi...
sisi badi hatuamini kwamba tukitumia lugha yetu ya
kiswahili kwa mfano kusomesha wahandisi na madakari na taaluma
zingine,tutapiga hatua kwa haraka sana...
vijana wenye elimu ya uhandisi waliyoipata kwa lugha yao
hawatakubali kuishi nyumba mbovu au kuwepo na tatizo
la madaraja maeneo wanayoishi wakati wana uwezo wa maarifa ktatua tatizo hilo
mila na desturi tulizo zitupa ni pamoja na lugha zetu....
Condescending as usual, and the condescension continues to expose the naked ignominy.Nani kakwambia situmii uzoefu wa maisha? Ukisoma posts zangu za juu hapo utaona ninavyopraise experimenting in the real world as opposed to kukariri, utaona nilivyomsifia Galileo kwa kum debunk Aristotle, utaona nilivyomsifia Copernicus kwa kum debunk Ptolemy, sasa how can you say kwamba mimi nakuja na ungwini academic bila actual world experiment? Nimeflow kutoka the ancients, the medievals, the orients mpaka modern day Shaolin. Na naandika hivi kuonyesha kwamba ninavyoongea si crackpot theory ni vitu vinavyotambulika. Wewe unaendelea kujaza post na nukta kama table of contents bila kuelezea wala aibu.
Chagua lugha yoyote inayotumika widely hapa JF, Kiswahili au Kiingereza.Mchagua jembe si mkulima, na kwa kuanza ku make a big deal about lugha kunakuonyesha kwamba huna hoja.Maana unataka kufanya viroja kuwa hoja.
Mawazo yangu yakirandana na ya hao mabingwa yanaacha kuwa yangu wala ya hao mabingwa, yanakuwa mawazo tu kuhusu kitu fulani, huwezi kuyaangalia mawazo bila ya kuangalia nani kayatoa? Nilivyokutajia majina hayo si kwamba nayapa uzito mawazo kwa majina ya watu - sina tabia ya kubabaikia majina na wala sipendi kubabaikiwa- ni katika kukufahamisha line of thought yangu imelalia wapi, kwamba ukitaka summary ya my line of thoughts angalia classic arguments za kumsaga mungu zinazokuwa associated na hayo majina.
Mimi sina dini na niko openminded, make your case for a god in a convincing way and you will win me over, but not with one liners followed by a million and one nuktas, you gotta do your homework.
Table of contents, by the very nature of its function, iko vague, inampa mtu a rather narrow window into the subject matter, sasa usitegemee mimi nielewe this incoherent table of content kama hujaweza kunyambulisha mambo.
I'm ready, I don't know about you.
Don't say that you haven't been warned by this mental Jujitsu master.
Aisee kuhusu lugha umeongelea kitu cha maana sana na kitu ambacho nilikua nime overlook.
Lakini kuna tatizo moja kuhusu kutumia lugha yetu wenyewe. Hatujitoshelezi kiajira. Kwa maana leo mtu afundishwe kwa Kiswahili kuanzia vidudu mpaka chuo ina maana unamuandaa na kumlimit kufanya kazi Tanzania katika makampuni ya Kitanzania. Leo hii tunaweza ku-guarantee wasomi wetu job security kama tukiamua kufanya hivyo? Leo mtu wa China, Japan na Korea ana uhakika wa ajira nchini mwake katika makampuni yanayo tumia lugha yake. Is that the same case for us?
Maendeleo na utumiaji wa lugha yanaenda sambamba, siyo moja linatangulia lingine
Kwanza usichanganye traditions fulani katika tamaduni za wenzetu ambazo labda- labda- zinaweza kuwa objectionable, na positive trends za freedom zilizopo katika cultures hizo.
Huko Sweden si kama wanalazimisha watu kuwa mashoga, wanatoa uhuru tu kwa mtu anayetaka kuwa shoga awe shoga, sasa kama wewe unaona ku impose views zako kwa wenzako ndiyo sawa utajionyesha jinsi gani uko medieval.
Halafu huu uongo kwamba Africa hakuna mashoga na habari za mashoga zinatoka west ni delusion, kuna habari za ushoga afrika zilizokuwa documented as far back as the original egyptians. Kwa hiyo tuache kudanganyana kwamba ushoga ni kitu foreign africa.
Ukishaanza kuamini kwamba kuna huyu mungu kakaa juu anaangalia mambo yote, unaacha kuchukua personal responsibility, unaanza kuomba na kusali zaidi kuliko ku reason na kufanya kazi.
Watu wanakufa migodini Arusha rais anasema ni "mapenzi ya mungu". Kumbe tungekuwa na safety laws zilizo proactive na teknolojia za kutosha tusingekuwa na haja ya kumsingizia huyu non-existent godhead.
Mafisadi wanatanua, watu wanajifariji kwamba "watakiona cha mtema kuni siku ya hukumu" etc etc, mifano mingi.
Guess what, Waswahili walisema "Dua la kuku halimpati mwewe" hamna siku ya hukumu, mungu wala shetani, mbingu wala moto in the traditional sense.
Siku ya hukumu ni leo, mungu na shetani ni wewe kutegemea na matendo yako at any moment (unaweza kutenda kiungu au kishetani kwa maana ya vizuri au vibaya, lakini hakuna entity ya mungu huyu wala shetani) na mbingu na moto viko hapa hapa duniani.
Ndiyo maana Wu wanakwambia,
What do you believe in, heaven or hell.
We don't believe in heaven cause we're living in hell.
Kwanza usichanganye traditions fulani katika tamaduni za wenzetu ambazo labda- labda- zinaweza kuwa objectionable, na positive trends za freedom zilizopo katika cultures hizo. Ni sawasawa na kupima mito ya continent inamwaga maji upande gani kwa kutumia kichuguu cha uwani kwako. Unakosa statistician wanachokiita "sample space" ya kutosha ku lend credibility to your observations.
As long as tunaongea dini kupandikizwa katika jamii, hatuwezi kuacha kutaja imani ya mungu, hususan mungu wa Judeo-Christian traditions, lakini pia idea nzima ya ku submit kwa authority ya kiungu kuwa kikwazo kikubwa cha maendeleo. Huko Sweden si kama wanalazimisha watu kuwa mashoga, wanatoa uhuru tu kwa mtu anayetaka kuwa shoga awe shoga, sasa kama wewe unaona ku impose views zako kwa wenzako ndiyo sawa utajionyesha jinsi gani uko medieval.
Halafu huu uongo kwamba Africa hakuna mashoga na habari za mashoga zinatoka west ni delusion, kuna habari za ushoga afrika zilizokuwa documented as far back as the original egyptians. Kwa hiyo tuache kudanganyana kwamba ushoga ni kitu foreign africa.Tatizo letu wafrica mambo tunayaficha under the carpet halafu tunajidai kama hayapo, wenzetu wanayaanika wazi, tunafikiri kwamba kwetu hayapo.
Ukishaanza kuamini kwamba kuna huyu mungu kakaa juu anaangalia mambo yote, unaacha kuchukua personal responsibility, unaanza kuomba na kusali zaidi kuliko ku reason na kufanya kazi.
Watu wanakufa migodini Arusha rais anasema ni "mapenzi ya mungu". Kumbe tungekuwa na safety laws zilizo proactive na teknolojia za kutosha tusingekuwa na haja ya kumsingizia huyu non-existent godhead.
Mafisadi wanatanua, watu wanajifariji kwamba "watakiona cha mtema kuni siku ya hukumu" etc etc, mifano mingi.
Guess what, Waswahili walisema "Dua la kuku halimpati mwewe" hamna siku ya hukumu, mungu wala shetani, mbingu wala moto in the traditional sense.
Siku ya hukumu ni leo, mungu na shetani ni wewe kutegemea na matendo yako at any moment (unaweza kutenda kiungu au kishetani kwa maana ya vizuri au vibaya, lakini hakuna entity ya mungu huyu wala shetani) na mbingu na moto viko hapa hapa duniani.
Ndiyo maana Wu wanakwambia,
What do you believe in, heaven or hell.
We don't believe in heaven cause we're living in hell.