Siasa ya Ujamaa na kujitegemea bado ni Itikadi ya CCM?

[Kiranga]

Mose,

Maandiko marefu sana yanapunguza utamu na ladha ya kuyasoma kwenye "screen", nimesoma para moja tu. Sina cha kukujibu, Summarize.

And I thought Mwanakijiji was bad!

Halafu Mose anaandika Kiswahili kama vile kimetafsiriwa kutoka Kiingereza.

Mose,

Mie binafsi simshambulii Nyerere kama mtu, nasema idea zake hazikufikiriwa kwa makini. Halafu una reconcile vipi "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwamba hauwezi kutekelezeka kwa mtu mmoja mmoja na hivyo jambo zima la kutekelezeka kitaifa ni njozi tu?

 

[Companero]

Ujamaa na Kujitegemea ni contradiction.

Ujamaa maana yake ni kutegemeana. Kujitegemea maana yake ni kutokuwa mjamaa.

Ukiwa mjamaa huwezi kujitegemea. Ukijitegemea huwezi kuwa mjamaa.

"Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" ni contradiction, moja ya sababu ulishindwa.

Kiranga hujaacha tu hizi tautologies zako?

UJAMAA = KUJITEGEMEA KWA PAMOJA (COLLECTIVE SELF-RELIANCE)!

 

[SOBY]

And I thought Mwanakijiji was bad!

Halafu Mose anaandika Kiswahili kama vile kimetafsiriwa kutoka Kiingereza.

Mose,

Mie binafsi simshambulii Nyerere kama mtu, nasema idea zake hazikufikiriwa kwa makini. Halafu una reconcile vipi "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwamba hauwezi kutekelezeka kwa mtu mmoja mmoja na hivyo jambo zima la kutekelezeka kitaifa ni njozi tu?

Am in!!!

Hebu niambie kwanini mtu mzima ashindwe kujitegemea?

 

[Kiranga]

Am in!!!

Hebu niambie kwanini mtu mzima ashindwe kujitegemea?

Mtu mmoja, sio mtu mzima.

Mtu mmoja hawezi kufanza "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwa mpigo, atafanya kimoja au kingine, kwa sababu viwili hivi vinakinzana kama usiku na mchana.

Ujamaa maana yake ni kutegemeana, kujitegemea maana yake ni kujitosheleza bila kutegemeana. Mtu mmoja akijitegemea hawezi kuwa mjamaa, na akiwa mjamaa hawezi kujitegemea. Hence "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" katika unit ya mtu mmoja hauwezekani kutekelezeka. Na kama hauwezekaniki kutekelezeka kwa mtu mmoja kwa nchi nzima ndiyo ndoto kubwa zaidi.

Angalia mfululizo wa thread tumejadili kirefu.

 

[SOBY]

Mtu mmoja, sio mtu mzima.

Mtu mmoja hawezi kufanza "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwa mpigo, atafanya kimoja au kingine, kwa sababu viwili hivi vinakinzana kama usiku na mchana.

Ujamaa maana yake ni kutegemeana, kujitegemea maana yake ni kujitosheleza bila kutegemeana. Mtu mmoja akijitegemea hawezi kuwa mjamaa, na akiwa mjamaa hawezi kujitegemea. Hence "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" katika unit ya mtu mmoja hauwezekani kutekelezeka. Na kama hauwezekaniki kutekelezeka kwa mtu mmoja kwa nchi nzima ndiyo ndoto kubwa zaidi.

Angalia mfululizo wa thread tumejadili kirefu.

Nimesoma kila post kwenye uzi huu.
Kujitegemea kwa mtu mmoja ndiyo msingi wa ujamaa.
Ujamaa hautawezekana kama mtu mmoja hawezi kujitegemea, ujamaa siyo siasa ya kutoa handouts bali ya kumuwezesha mtu kujitegemea.... Social security, Obamney care, GI bill, Pell grant... etc are examples of socialistic policies meant to improve poor people's lives and not used as handouts.
Hata kwenye capitalism kujitegemea kwa mtu ndio msingi.
chukua mfano wa Norway.
Kwa hiyo, kama mtu hawezi kujitegemea, wale wanaoweza kujitegemea wamwezeshe... huo ndio ujamaa.

 

[Mwali]

@Kiranga uko individualist in your thinking, na Ujamaa is jamii per essence.
Kujitegemea refered to Jamii and not to individuals. NImekusoma unauliza: tunawezaje kusema sisi ni taifa la wasomi kama hakuna hata msomi mmoja kati yetu? jibu ni kwamba it is not possible. Kwa hiyo next level would be to aply the reasoning to Ujamaa: tutasemaje sisi ni taifa linalo jitegemea ikiwa hakuna hata mtu mmoja anae jitegemea? Jibu ni kwamba this is pure sophism.
Education unayo izungumzia ni individualist per essence, mtu anasoma au kusomesha binafsi, alafu nguvu ya taifa la wasomi inaonekana pale wasomi wengi wanapo kaa pamoja.
Ujamaa na kujitegemea means we believe in Jamii linalo jitegemea. Huwezi tena kufikiria as an individual. Kila kitu kinakua collective. Na to some extend, kulikua na independence wakati ule.
@Mgeni wetu: Vitu vingi vilichangia failure ya Ujamaa na leo nadhani hakuna Ujamaa wowote. Kula uliwe. Kama alivo sema FaizaFoxy, ni Jungle law, may the strongest survive.

 

[SOBY]

@Mgeni wetu: Vitu vingi vilichangia failure ya Ujamaa na leo nadhani hakuna Ujamaa wowote. Kula uliwe. Kama alivo sema FaizaFoxy, ni Jungle law, may the strongest survive.

Kwenye nyekundu.... MAY THE WEAK SURVIVE!

 

[Mtazamaji]

• Nchi zilizoendelea kama USA, UK na nyingine zilipata maendeleo kwa vitu kama unyonyaji. Tanzania haiwezi ghafla tu kupaa na kujitegema . Ni either tutumie ujamaa kurganise a u cordinate resource ndogo tulizonazo au tukubaliane na unyonyaji .............
• Nchi zinazendea bila unyonyaji zina aina fulani ya misingi ya siasa ya kijamaa( eg Scandnavia)
• Watanzanaia na waafrika kiujumla masha ya jamii zetu yamjengwa na msingi ya ujamaa( ushirika, Koo etc so sio kitu kipya). Na kuna mifano mingi hata kabla ya siasa ya ujama kuwa ya kitafia kuna baadhi ya jamii zilifanikiwa kujitegema na kuendeea kieimu, kilimo, kiuchumi kwa kutumia ujamaa. vyama vya ushirika (Kagera, Kilmajaro, Mwanza )ni mfano jinsi ujamaa ulivyowezesha baadhi ya kujitegemea

 

[Kiranga]

Nimesoma kila post kwenye uzi huu.
Kujitegemea kwa mtu mmoja ndiyo msingi wa ujamaa.
Ujamaa hautawezekana kama mtu mmoja hawezi kujitegemea, ujamaa siyo siasa ya kutoa handouts bali ya kumuwezesha mtu kujitegemea.... Social security, Obamney care, GI bill, Pell grant... etc are examples of socialistic policies meant to improve poor people's lives and not used as handouts.
Hata kwenye capitalism kujitegemea kwa mtu ndio msingi.
chukua mfano wa Norway.
Kwa hiyo, kama mtu hawezi kujitegemea, wale wanaoweza kujitegemea wamwezeshe... huo ndio ujamaa.

Mtu mmoja akiweza kujitegemea, ujamaa utampa faida gani kiuchumi?

Ujamaa kama mode of production in political economy, msingi wake ni kuunganisha nguvu za watu mbalimbali ili waweze kupata mazao pamoja. Ndipo hapo unakuta vijiji vya Ujamaa na cooperative Unions etc.

Sasa mie najitegemea, najitosheleza, kulima kwenye shamba la ujamaa kutanisaidiaje? Kuingia katika cooperative union kutanipatia nini zaidi ya aggravation za kujua kwamba kama jirani yangu anategea kulima, ajitie kuumwa msimu mzima na kuja siku ya mavuno kutaka kugawana, ataninyonya.

Ujamaa maana yake ni kutegemeana. Hakuna shamba la kijiji cha ujamaa au cooperative union inayoweza kuendeshwa bila kutegemeana. Kujitegemea is the total opposite of Ujamaa.

Hakuna kitu kama "kama mtu hawezi kujitegemea, wale wanaoweza kujitegemea wamwezeshe" kujitegemea huku tayari kuna doa kwa sababu kumesimama katika msingi wa kuwezeshwa na wengine. Kujitegemea tegemezi. Kujitegema kifaduro kama uchumi wa Tanzania unaotegemea misaada ya nje miaka nenda miaka rudi lakini uko pale pale.

Unanikumbusha kauli ya "wanawake wakiwezeshwa, wanaweza" na wasipowezeshwa je? Inamaana hata kuweza kwao kuna msingi wa kutoweza na ni pale watakapowezeshwa tu ndipo wataweza?

Mtu mmoja hawezi kutekeleza "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwa sababu kubwa moja, akiwa mjamaa hawezi kujitegemea, akijitegemea hawezi kuwa mjamaa.

Niambie unataka kuwa "Mjamaa" nitakuelewa. Niambie unataka "Kujitegemea" nitakuelewa.

"Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwa mpigo, ni paradox, ni mirage, ni catch-22, ni ndoto ya mchana.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

And I thought Mwanakijiji was bad!

Talk about filibustering!

Mwanakiiji ain't got nothing on Mose.

Nimeliona tu bandiko nikachoka, nikasepa kwingine!

 

[SOBY]

Mtu mmoja akiweza kujitegemea, ujamaa utampa faida gani kiuchumi?

Ujamaa kama mode of production in political economy, msingi wake ni kuunganisha nguvu za watu mbalimbali ili waweze kupata mazao pamoja. Ndipo hapo unakuta vijiji vya Ujamaa na cooperative Unions etc.

Sasa mie najitegemea, najitosheleza, kulima kwenye shamba la ujamaa kutanisaidiaje? Kuingia katika cooperative union kutanipatia nini zaidi ya aggravation za kujua kwamba kama jirani yangu anategea kulima, ajitie kuumwa msimu mzima na kuja siku ya mavuno kutaka kugawana, ataninyonya.

Ujamaa maana yake ni kutegemeana. Hakuna shamba la kijiji cha ujamaa au cooperative union inayoweza kuendeshwa bila kutegemeana. Kujitegemea is the total opposite of Ujamaa.

Hakuna kitu kama "kama mtu hawezi kujitegemea, wale wanaoweza kujitegemea wamwezeshe" kujitegemea huku tayari kuna doa kwa sababu kumesimama katika msingi wa kuwezeshwa na wengine. Kujitegemea tegemezi. Kujitegema kifaduro kama uchumi wa Tanzania unaotegemea misaada ya nje miaka nenda miaka rudi lakini uko pale pale.

Unanikumbusha kauli ya "wanawake wakiwezeshwa, wanaweza" na wasipowezeshwa je? Inamaana hata kuweza kwao kuna msingi wa kutoweza na ni pale watakapowezeshwa tu ndipo wataweza?

Mtu mmoja hawezi kutekeleza "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwa sababu kubwa moja, akiwa mjamaa hawezi kujitegemea, akijitegemea hawezi kuwa mjamaa.

Niambie unataka kuwa "Mjamaa" nitakuelewa. Niambie unataka "Kujitegemea" nitakuelewa.

"Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwa mpigo, ni paradox, ni mirage, ni catch-22, ni ndoto ya mchana.

Kujitegemea ni kujitosheleza kwenye mahitaji muhimu (no matter what that means).
Kujitegemea kusilinganishwe na usawa....
Sisi kama binadamu tunafall kwenye normal distribution and there should be a way to improve the wellness of the late majority and luggards.... those people are normally distributed in any society depending on its natural or acquired wealth.
Kwa taifa masikini kama la Tanzania, the early majority and innovators should take care of the rest... this can be either forced or be done voluntarily.
When that happens we call it socialism i.e an economic system based on the society owning the major means of production.
During Eisenhower era, the richest americans were paying 91% in taxes and were still able to live a rich man's lifestyle a.k.a ballin'. And majority of Americans were able to live a self reliant life.
So, what you are trying to sell is actually the opposite. A socialist state is often self reliant..... not a capitalist state.

 

[Companero]

Ujamaa (African Socialism) haujawahi kutekelezwa Tanzania, kilichokuwepo ni Ubepari wa Dola (State Capitalism)!

 

[Kiranga]

@Kiranga uko individualist in your thinking,

Labda ni wewe uliye collectivist in your thinking.

na Ujamaa is jamii per essence.

Tumeshaona hapo juu kwamba jamii ni watu, na huwezi kufikiri mambo kama imani au ideology katika level ya jamii bila ya haya mambo kuweza kutekelezeka kwa mtu mmoja.

Leo hii huwezi kuniambia "Huu ni msikiti wa Waislam, lakini waumini wake si waislam, wakija msikitini tu, ule "ummat" ndio unakuwa waislam, lakini ukimuuliza mmoja mmoja hakuna muislam hata mmoja". Hapo utakuwa unaongea vitu visivyoeleweka.

Vivyo hivyo Ujamaa na Kujitegemea, huwezi kusema "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" ni itikadi ya nchi, lakini mtu mmoja mmoja hawezi kuitekeleza, shurti itekelezwe na nchi nzima. Nitaona vichekesho.

Kujitegemea refered to Jamii and not to individuals.

Jamii ni nani? Mdudu gani huyu anaitwa jamii? Ana pembe ngapi? Hivi jamii si watu jamani? Sasa kitu anachoshindwa kufanya mtu mmoja jamii itafanyaje?

Niambie una timu hapa, Pan, timu ya Pan inacheza mpira vizuri kweli, lakini haina hata mchezaji mmoja anayejua hata kuugusa mpira, si Juma Pondamali wala Jella Mtagwa (wat you know about that younguns?) Utakuwa unatania. Kama ilivyo kwamba huwezi kuwa na timu inayocheza mpira vizuri bila ya kuwa na wachezaji individuals wanaojua kucheza mpira vizuri, vivyo vivyo huwezi kuwa na nchi inayofuata "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" bila ya kuwa hata na mtu mmoja anayeweza kufuata "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea".

Nchi ni aggregate, individuals ndio units, huwezi kuwa na aggregate bila ya basic unit. Hakuna kilomita isiyo mita, hakuna shilingi isiyo senti.

Waingereza katika kujitahidi kuchochea utunzaji wa fedha wanasema "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" wakijua kwamba huwezi kufikiria grand schemes za magnitude kubwa kwa kudharau basic units. Hili ndilo kosa la "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea". It only thought of the big picture, the nation, the pounds, ikasahau the basic unit, the individual, the penny.

Sasa tukawa kama mtu anayetaka ku save hela afikishe a million dollar, lakini kila akipata a few hundred dollars anasema "this is but a few hundred dollars, I can do with spending this much". Baadae anajikuta hafikishi lengo anashangaa kwa nini? Hajui kwamba hafikishi kupata a million dollar bila kuchanga kidogo.

NImekusoma unauliza: tunawezaje kusema sisi ni taifa la wasomi kama hakuna hata msomi mmoja kati yetu? jibu ni kwamba it is not possible.

Ewaaaaaaah, likewise, kama hatuna mtu hata mmoja anayeweza kusema mimi ni "Mjamaa na Najitegemea" ( a contradiction as stated above) nchi nzima haiwezi kusema inafuata "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea".

Kwa hiyo next level would be to aply the reasoning to Ujamaa: tutasemaje sisi ni taifa linalo jitegemea ikiwa hakuna hata mtu mmoja anae jitegemea? Jibu ni kwamba this is pure sophism.

Pure sophism haiwezi kusimama mifano inayojikita katika ukweli kama niliyoitoa hapo juu. This is a basic truism. Makubwa yanatokana na madogo.

Education unayo izungumzia ni individualist per essence, mtu anasoma au kusomesha binafsi, alafu nguvu ya taifa la wasomi inaonekana pale wasomi wengi wanapo kaa pamoja.

Lakini ushakubali kwamba kama hakuna msomi hata mmoja, hata mkikusanyika mamilioni halitafanya mkusanyiko huo uwe wa wasomi.

Ujamaa na kujitegemea means we believe in Jamii linalo jitegemea. Huwezi tena kufikiria as an individual.

Hapo ndipo walipokosea authors wa hii system. Jamii si sinema ya science fiction ya Borgs ambao wazo linakuwa transmitted kwa jamii nzima inafikiri sawa, hata XINHUA (China), Pravda (USSR) na Granma (Cuba) yameshindwa kufanya hilo.

Ukiangalia human nature, process ya kufikiri ilivyo, by nature, ni individualistic. Naweza kukusikiliza, lakini nikifikiri nafikiri mimi, hatufikiri sisi. Hatimaye mwalimu anatupa an overly altruistic/ascetic/collectivistic code, wote tuna pay lip service kutokana na nidhamu ya woga, wengi bila hata ya kuwa na sophistication ya kuelewa the grand scheme, lakini utekelezaji unakuwa haupo. Kwa nini? Kwa sababu "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" ni contradiction iliyofikirika kufanyika katika a Borg-like society wakati society yetu ni real, sio some science fiction book or movie.

Kila kitu kinakua collective. Na to some extend, kulikua na independence wakati ule.

I am not saying things are better now. I am not saying things are worse. You will have to define further which aspect unaongelea. Kwa mfano. freedom of expression ipo zaidi leo kuliko enzi zile. Hii ni a worldwide tide, and a rising tide lifts all boats. Ukija kwenye mambo kama income equality tuko worse off now. Mi nakumbuka, sio zamani sana, in the eighties hapa baada ya Nyerere, Waziri anaendesha ki-beetle. Waziri ndio lakini Mfanyakazi wa serikali. Leo hii uwaziri ni ticket ya kupata mbingu duniani na mahekalu na waumini wa kukuabudu.

 

[Mwali]

Kiranga nimekusoma. Siwezi kujibu toe to toe kama wewe sababu kuanzia mstari wa kwanza nimeona kua hukunielewa what I meant by ujamaa ni jamii per essence, and you were individualist.
Kumbuka mazingira yalio zaa ujamaa. In 1947 kulianza kutokea dalili za cold war na President Newman akasema kua Nchi yake (USA) itasaidia nchi zingine kudevelop, popote walipo.
Lengo la Development ni kusaidia nchi zingine kua kama USA [sic], Hii development ilitakiwa kuendeshwa na institutions mbili: IMF na IBRD (today The World Bank), na utaratibu utakao tumika ni hizo institutions kukopa hela nchi masikini (he decided that 2 billion people were concerned). uhakika wa kuweza ulitokana na Keynes Idea kwamba kuna trickle down effect. Dunia ni market, individuals ni consumers. More is good, more is modern. Kwa hiyo watu waki act INDIVIDUALLY, na kutafuta profit, kila mtu kivyake, sheria za offer and demand zitaregulate kila kitu. Ikiwa kitu kama currency kinashuka thamani, basi kipunguze sokoni na bei yake itapanda. that is true for everything. Growth (which is the ultimate objective) will result in less than 2 decades.
Ila Mwalimu alisoma Economy, na alipata influence ya watu walio kua wanampinga Sen, na washington concensus (lengo ni kua kama USA). Pamoja na Sen and Ul Haq yeye aliamini kua growth is not the ultimate economic goal, na the USA are not the ideal model. Kila nchi inatakiwa kudevelop ideology yake, kufatana na mazingira yao. na ndipo alileta ujamaa.
Aliamini kua Ujamaa, as an ideology, itasaidia Tanzania kuendelea bila kufata model ya USA. Trickle down effect only operate in perfect market, but individuals don't always act as consumers or supliers, they also act as human being. as fathers, mothers, neighbors etc, and this degree of COLLECTIVISM was central to Tanzania/African socio-economic relations. Kwake yeye aliona itakua rahisi kuwafunza watu Ujamaa kuliko Keynesian Model.
Sasa nirudi kwenye swali lako: Kama ujamaa utasaidia watu wote kua independant kwa pamoja, bila kusaidia watu indivisualy basi utacheka. Well, you may as well start now, because that is what it is all about. Indivisualism was the key discourse of the keynesian model. Kama kila mtu ataendelea basi sote tutaendelea. But ujamaa was: what is the point ya kuendelea separately kama kuna ambao tunawaacha nyuma? so kuendelea binafsi was seen as a bad thing. leo the occupy movement says the same: wanao endelea wanaendelea at the expences ya wanao baki nyuma.
Do I write to much? do I make sense?

 

[kanta]

"Ujamaa na Kujitegemea ni contradiction.

Ujamaa maana yake ni kutegemeana. Kujitegemea maana yake ni kutokuwa mjamaa.

Ukiwa mjamaa huwezi kujitegemea. Ukijitegemea huwezi kuwa mjamaa.

"Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" ni contradiction, moja ya sababu ulishindwa."

Kaka unaweza kuwa sahihi kwa kuwa huo ni uchambuzi wako, but kutokana na mtazamo wa Mwalimu alisema
Ujamaa maana yake ni kufanya kazi kwa pamoja na kwa kushirikiana, Kujitegemea ni kwamba mtu mmojammoja aweze kuwa na hali nzuri kimaisha kutokana na matunda ya anayoyapata kutokana na ujamaa.

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga nimekusoma. Siwezi kujibu toe to toe kama wewe sababu kuanzia mstari wa kwanza nimeona kua hukunielewa what I meant by ujamaa ni jamii per essence, and you were individualist.
Kumbuka mazingira yalio zaa ujamaa. In 1947 kulianza kutokea dalili za cold war na President Newman akasema kua Nchi yake (USA) itasaidia nchi zingine kudevelop, popote walipo.
Lengo la Development ni kusaidia nchi zingine kua kama USA [sic], Hii development ilitakiwa kuendeshwa na institutions mbili: IMF na IBRD (today The World Bank), na utaratibu utakao tumika ni hizo institutions kukopa hela nchi masikini (he decided that 2 billion people were concerned). uhakika wa kuweza ulitokana na Keynes Idea kwamba kuna trickle down effect. Dunia ni market, individuals ni consumers. More is good, more is modern. Kwa hiyo watu waki act INDIVIDUALLY, na kutafuta profit, kila mtu kivyake, sheria za offer and demand zitaregulate kila kitu. Ikiwa kitu kama currency kinashuka thamani, basi kipunguze sokoni na bei yake itapanda. that is true for everything. Growth (which is the ultimate objective) will result in less than 2 decades.
Ila Mwalimu alisoma Economy, na alipata influence ya watu walio kua wanampinga Sen, na washington concensus (lengo ni kua kama USA). Pamoja na Sen and Ul Haq yeye aliamini kua growth is not the ultimate economic goal, na the USA are not the ideal model. Kila nchi inatakiwa kudevelop ideology yake, kufatana na mazingira yao. na ndipo alileta ujamaa.
Aliamini kua Ujamaa, as an ideology, itasaidia Tanzania kuendelea bila kufata model ya USA. Trickle down effect only operate in perfect market, but individuals don't always act as consumers or supliers, they also act as human being. as fathers, mothers, neighbors etc, and this degree of COLLECTIVISM was central to Tanzania/African socio-economic relations. Kwake yeye aliona itakua rahisi kuwafunza watu Ujamaa kuliko Keynesian Model.
Sasa nirudi kwenye swali lako: Kama ujamaa utasaidia watu wote kua independant kwa pamoja, bila kusaidia watu indivisualy basi utacheka. Well, you may as well start now, because that is what it is all about. Indivisualism was the key discourse of the keynesian model. Kama kila mtu ataendelea basi sote tutaendelea. But ujamaa was: what is the point ya kuendelea separately kama kuna ambao tunawaacha nyuma? so kuendelea binafsi was seen as a bad thing. leo the occupy movement says the same: wanao endelea wanaendelea at the expences ya wanao baki nyuma.
Do I write to much? do I make sense?

Hapa umechanganya mambo mengi, it's not even funny, sijui hata pa kuanzia.

Kwanza nimtafute huyo rais Newman alikuwa rais wa ngapi na alitawala miaka mingapi. Ngoja nipanguse tabu langu la marais wa Marekani hapa. Au inawezekana uko katika an alternate universe?

Halafu unavyomsema J.M Keyness ni kinyume, umemfanya Hayek (individualist) ndo kawa Keynes ( big government/ collectivist) na Keynes kawa Hayek.

 

[Kiranga]

"Ujamaa na Kujitegemea ni contradiction.

Ujamaa maana yake ni kutegemeana. Kujitegemea maana yake ni kutokuwa mjamaa.

Ukiwa mjamaa huwezi kujitegemea. Ukijitegemea huwezi kuwa mjamaa.

"Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" ni contradiction, moja ya sababu ulishindwa."

Kaka unaweza kuwa sahihi kwa kuwa huo ni uchambuzi wako, but kutokana na mtazamo wa Mwalimu alisema
Ujamaa maana yake ni kufanya kazi kwa pamoja na kwa kushirikiana, Kujitegemea ni kwamba mtu mmojammoja aweze kuwa na hali nzuri kimaisha kutokana na matunda ya anayoyapata kutokana na ujamaa.

Hujajibu swali la "Mtu mmoja atakuwaje "Mjamaa anayejitegemea" kwa wakati mmoja?"

 

[Fahari MJ]

Nyerere mwenyewe aliye "preach" ujamaa na kujitegemea alikuwa haelewi ni nini anachokifanya. ilikuwa ni utafiti ulioshindikana. Hakuna kabla wala baada.

Athari na makovu yatadumu mpaka siku kizazi cha mwisho cha zama za Nyerere kitapotoweka.

Acha uwongo
ujamaa ni part and parcel ya maisha ya asili ya kiafrika na wabantu .Unapata picha gani ukisikia neno kama extended family? Na hapo ni family tu bado kijiji. Sasa ujamaa ndio hiyo hiyo concept kuiweka wenye uzalishaji na maendeleo na kujitegemea. iwe ni ngazi ya familia au kijiji.au ushirika....

Kama wewe sio mbantu nitakuelewa

 

[mose]

Mose,

Maandiko marefu sana yanapunguza utamu na ladha ya kuyasoma kwenye "screen", nimesoma para moja tu. Sina cha kukujibu, Summarize.

FaizaFoxy, dada mkubwa mpenzi, naelewa fika ninalofanya halilandani na mtiririko wa mtindo wa kujieleza wa wengi lakini najisikia kulazimika kufanya ninachofanya labda kusisitiza ishara kuhitaji namna tofauti ya watu kushiriki mawazo na si kule kuwa na mazungumzo yasiyokwisha/yenye kurudia kwa kadri mtu asijisikiavyo na hali labda kiini cha swali ni hitaji la hata kisomo rasmi.

Labda ninatumia chombo kisicho mahususi kwa dhamira yangu lakini ndiyo kujifaragua kwenyewe.

Kwa namna hii mimi sitakuwa mchangiaji sana humu JF--kwa kuwa sipendelei mazungumzo ya kurashia rashia; napenda mazungumzo ya kuifundi, mtizamo na ubayana. Ingelikuwa kuna nidhamu hii kwenye mengi ya mazungumzo ya wengi basi kuna uwezekano na mimi ningekuwa ninachangia kidogo kidogo na kwa kulenga sana moyo wa mazungumzo. Hata hivyo katika baadhi ya nyuzi ambazo watu wataonekana kuwa wanaongea kwa mpangilio sana na namna ya visomo ninaweza kuunganika kwa muhtasari kama ulivyoshauri.

Hata hivyo ninaweza kuwa ninaandika hivi kwa kuwa ninataka upana na kina wa maelezo katika mada kama hizi nihamishie kwenye uzi mahususi wa 'Introduction: Social Entrepreneurship Synthesis (SES) katika jukwaa la Elimu. Kuwa huko ndiko ninataka kuunganika na wote wanataka twende kwa mtindo ninaopenda.

And I thought Mwanakijiji was bad!

Halafu Mose anaandika Kiswahili kama vile kimetafsiriwa kutoka Kiingereza.

Mose,

Mie binafsi simshambulii Nyerere kama mtu, nasema idea zake hazikufikiriwa kwa makini. Halafu una reconcile vipi "Ujamaa na Kujitegemea" kwamba hauwezi kutekelezeka kwa mtu mmoja mmoja na hivyo jambo zima la kutekelezeka kitaifa ni njozi tu?

Kaka mpendwa Kiranga, hahaha... "Halafu Mose anaandika Kiswahili kama vile kimetafsiriwa kutoka Kiingereza"--ni swaga tu 😉 Upo sahihi kabisa.

Anha, usijali kuhusu kumshambulia/kutomshambulia Nyerere kama mtu kulingana na wewe--hilo limeelezwa mapema kama shauri la kheri kwa yeyote anayehusika ama atayehusika.

Unauliza, halafu una-reconcile vipi Ujamaa na Kujitegemea--unaendanisha vipi Ujamaa na Kujitegemea? Kwa kweli ukisoma hayo yote niliyofafanua katika posti iliyotanguliwa utapata picha. Inaweza kuwa tete na si kali na kamili lakini dhumuni la kuwepo humu na kushiriki maono kamili kwa hivyo ninawajibu wa kurudia na kurudia kuwakilisha jambo pake niwapendeo wameelewa na kupata picha iliyojitosheleza. Tafadhali tulia usome yote kama kweli unataka kujua na kutambua msingi wa shauri la jinsi mimi ninavyoendanisha Ujamaa na Kujitegemea.

Halafu wewe ndiyo mtu pekee humu Jamii Forums nikiondoa wengine wachache sana kwa kuwa hesabu hata kwa idadi ya vidole wenye kuweza kuja kuelewa kwa uthabiti wa hali ya juu kipi ninachoingia kuwakilisha humu ndani. Tulia kaka, tulia. Usiende kazi sana na wala kukosa cha kulenga hasa.

Kwa hivyo nikiri pia bado sijadadavua kiepistimolojia; Kwa sasa ninaambaa ambaa tu na dhana na pia etimolojia ya maneno na kauli. Jiandae, nitarudi na tutazungumza yote kuanzia fizikia hata kisomo cha mnyambuliko wa kijamii na kwa pande anuai. Nikupe Koani rahisi kama ilivyo katika Zen, sauti ya mkono mmoja ukipiga kofi?'

Talk about filibustering!

Mwanakiiji ain't got nothing on Mose.

Nimeliona tu bandiko nikachoka, nikasepa kwingine!

Hahaha, I would rather take this as compliment dear brother Nyani Ngabu.

That long post--Sort of obstruction and delay in this line on discussion? It could be quite a potential jab in the round, but let me take it is as a jest, LOL.

Don't walk away dear brother, least embrace a discipline of going through extended reflection and insights. They call this a platform for 'Great Thinkers'--but I don't see the maximum light in this yet... Endless light talks are rampant, sometimes whimsical and even sentimental. I am not judging in a real sense rather to highlight the fact--that which transpires in our heads most of the times determine the momentum of our collective course, fate-wise; and also describes why and how do we qualify the present state of raw/unrefined/lacking uniformity towards a potential palatable social mind.

I want this to change--my methodology to mingle in may appear to be mean, annoying and liable to getting despised by many who are around here and I do empathize.

Please do accept my unconventional ways, will you?

Maximum Love

 

[Mganga wa Jadi]

Kama jinsi ujamaa na kujitegemea ulivyokufa kifo cha mende, alama ya jembe na nyundo kwenye bendera ya chama iwe replaced na Umma na kisu.