If Chadema change position it mustt apologize, unconditionally!

State and Law:

Laws are made by the ruling class(CCHeM) to ensure that their interests are protected and fostered. With such a legal framework, don't expect that CCHeM is going to change the current constitution, coz URT 1977 constitution is accommodating their interests.

Therefore, they will never dare to change the current constitution for their own peril. If they don't initiate that change, what should we do then? Let us force them by "going in the streets". It is our prima facie right!

Mzee Mwanakijiji said:

Feb 8, Bunge jipya litakapoanza wabunge wa CCM wakiwa wameunganishwa kwa lengo la kudhoofisha Chadema watatoa hoja rasmi ya kutaka wabunge wa Chadema kuomba radhi Bunge kwa kitendo chao cha kutoka Bungeni ambacho kilionekana kumdharirisha Rais, na kujenga picha mbaya kwa taifa. Watatakiwa waombe msamaha au watapigiwa kura ya kufungiwa watoke hadi watakapokuwa tayari kufanya hivyo. Hoja zitakazotolewa kwa kiasi kikubwa ni hizi hizi nilizozianisha.

a. Je, Wabunge hao wawe tayari kuomba msamaha ili waendelee kushiriki vikao vya Bunge
b. Je, Wakiambiwa watamke wazi kuwa JK ni Rais kwa sababu ni mshindi si kwa sababu ametangazwa na Tume watakuwa tayari?
c. Je, wakiambiwa watambue hayo yote unconditionally (yaani wasilalamikie kabisa uchaguzi)

Je wafanye hivyo? Je, mnafikiri watakuwa wamoja kukubali kuchukua msimamo wa pamoja?

Itakuwaje kama kundi moja ndani ya Chadema litakuja na kusema "tuombe tu msamaha ili tuyamalize" na kundi jingine likasema "hatuombi msamaha" halafu wabunge wa CCM wakasema wako tayari kutambua msamaha hata wa mbunge mmoja mmoja itakuwaje?

Kweli kabisa kuna watu wanafikiria kuwa CCM watawaacha wabunge wa Chadema warudi Bungeni na kuendelea na vikao bila kuwalipisha gharama?

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Mwanakijiji,

Maswali yako yote yamejengwa kwenye false assumption kwamba kitendo cha kutoka nje ya bunge ni kinyume cha utaratibu. Mwanasheria mkuu ameshasema ya kuwa hakuna kanuni zozote zilizokiukwa kutokana na CHADEMA's walk out. Sasa kama hakuna sheria yeyote iliyovunjwa kwa nini tena waombee msamaha?

Fundi Mchundo said:

Hivi ni wapi ambapo wabunge wanalazimika kuwepo wakati Rais anahutubia? Ni haki ya kila mbunge kufanya kile ambacho anaamini ni haki ili mradi havunji sheria. Mpaka sasa sijaona mahali ambapo panasema kitendo walichofanya ni uvunjaji wa kanuni yeyote ya bunge au sheria ya nchi. Hisia ya kuwa kwa kufanya hivyo wamemdhalilisha Rais inategemewa kutoka kwenye chama ambacho mgombea wake amepewa ushindi lakini si lazima iwe hivyo mbele ya sheria.

Tofauti na mnavyodhani kuwa kitendo cha hao jamaa kimetoa picha mbaya, ukweli ni kuwa kumetujengea sifa ya kuonyesha kuwa demokrasi yetu imekomaa. Kutakako jenga picha mbaya ni vitendo vindictive kama hivyo vya kudai apology kutoka kwa mwakalishi wa raia aliyetumia haki yake ya ku-dissent. Na hivi kweli wabunge wa chama kimoja wanaweza kweli kupiga kura kuwanyima haki wabunge wenzao haki ya kuwawakilisha waliowachagua kwa kitendo ambacho hata wenyewe wanakiri hakikuvunja kanuni. Hawa waliamka, kimya kimya bila kumtusi mtu sasa leo kweli mnataka kuendelea kuweka miguu yao kwenye moto. Kuendeleza hii kitu ndiko kutaonyesha kuwa kweli hatujaelewa wala hatujakubali maana ya demokrasia. Kama kweli CCM watakazania kuwaadabisha CDM basi watakuwa kama school yard bully ambae hamna mtu mwenye kufikiri atakuwa na sympathy nae. The mature thing ni wao kusimama na kulaani kitendo cha CDM na ku-move on.

Hayo ya kikundi kimoja ndani ya CDM kuomba msamaha ni hadithi ya Ali Nacha. Wasemaji wa chama hicho wanajulikana. Msimamo wa chama chao utabaki pale pale hata kama wabunge binafsi watatofautiana na uongozi. Ndiyo demokrasia.

Amandla.......

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FM:

Ndio wabunge wa CHADEMA walikuwa wana haki ya kutoka nje au kutosikiliza hotuba ya rais. Lakini vitendo vyote walivyofanya na wanavyofanya toka uchaguzi uieshe ni matumizi ya mtaji wao wa kisiasa (political capital). Matumizi ya mtaji wowote yana mambo matatu tu: kuleta faida, kuleta hasara au kubakiza mtaji.

Unakataa hotuba ya rais kwa sababu ya kutomtambua lakini uchelewi kwenda kwenye mnuso alioandaa. Hiyo political naivette ya wapi?. Unatoa ahadi ya kufuatilia taratibu zilizotumika katika uchaguzi, mwezi unapita hakuna kinachofanyika.

Ng'wanangwa said:

Chadema haina strategy.

Chama gani chenye strategy?

Kama huwezi kujibu hilo swali langu, basi mawazo yako ni unafiki na uchokonozi. uwoga.

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Your logic is overly defensive, in the process becoming convoluted and blind. This would be laughably funny if it wasn't so serious.

Kwa hiyo kama hamna chama chenye strategy, hii inakipa CHADEMA leseni ya kukosa strategy? Si tuliaminishwa kwamba CHADEMA ndicho chama mbadala ? Kitakachokuja na strategies ambazo vyama vingine havina? Sasa ukikubali kwamba CHADEMA hakina strategy kimsingi unakubali kwamba CHADEMA hakina tofauti kubwa na vyama vingine vilivyopo.

Don't shift the goalposts here, the question is not whether vyama vingine vina strategies, the question is whether CHADEMA ina strategy. Suppose mtu anataka kujiunga na CHADEMA, anauliza CHADEMA ina strategies gani kuondoa utawala huu ili ajue kama ni chama kinachofaa au hakifai, utamwambia CHADEMA haina strategy kwa sababu vyama vingine havina strategy? Hii ni defense kweli? Sio uzembe huu?

Unaulizwa nchi yetu masikini, mnafanya nini kuhakikisha tunatokomeza umasikini huu? Unajibu hatufanyi kitu, kwa sababu hamna mtu mwingine yeyote anayefanya kitu, hii akili kweli? Huu ndio uongozi tunaoutegemea kutoka chama mbadala ?

Ukianza ku justify CHADEMA kutokuwa na strategy kwa sababu vyama vingine havina strategy kimsingi unakubali CHADEMA hakina jipya.

Sasa kwa nini nitake kuunga mkono chama ambacho hakina jipya?

Just because other parties do not have a strategy, that is not an excuse for CHADEMA not to have a strategy. If you cite other parties not having strategies as an excuse for CHADEMA not to have a strategy, basically what you amount to saying is that CHADEMA does not have the moral authority or performance merit to ask for votes based on a "regime change" platform.

What good is a regime change if the new rulers are no different from the old rulers?

This will be the proverbial "old wine in a new bottle". I don't want CHADEMA to turn into this, this is why I am stressing a strategy.

Tatizo ninaloliona hapa ni kwamba watu wana approach political discourse with an unhealthy dose of religiosity. This is not about party labels, it is about the ideals behind those labels, how can they be achieved.

If we want to keep CCM honest and blast it to smithereens for it's wrongdoings, we should employ the same level of critical analysis when it comes to it's most credible replacement.

Otherwise tuta reduce political discourse to a level of ushabiki wa mpira, unazi. Timu yangu kwanza, tufungwe tushinde, tucheze mpira vizuri au vibaya.

Hatushabikii mpira hapa, kuna maisha ya watu tunaongelea. Watu hawana maji, hawana umeme, hawana elimu etc. Let's be fair to the vast needs of the Tanzanian people without getting overly sensitive or defensive about party afiliations.

Zakumi said:

FM:

Ndio wabunge wa CHADEMA walikuwa wana haki ya kutoka nje au kutosikiliza hotuba ya rais. Lakini vitendo vyote walivyofanya na wanavyofanya toka uchaguzi uieshe ni matumizi ya mtaji wao wa kisiasa (political capital). Matumizi ya mtaji wowote yana mambo matatu tu: kuleta faida, kuleta hasara au kubakiza mtaji.

Unakataa hotuba ya rais kwa sababu ya kutomtambua lakini uchelewi kwenda kwenye mnuso alioandaa. Hiyo political naivette ya wapi?. Unatoa ahadi ya kufuatilia taratibu zilizotumika katika uchaguzi, mwezi unapita hakuna kinachofanyika.

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Mimi naona kama vile ni mapema mno kuwahuku hawa Chadema na kusema kuwa wanapoteza political capital yao. Hata miezi miwili haijaisha na tayari watu wanataka kwa-write off! Hivi kweli hao wabunge wao wachache walionao tulitegemea kweli watakuwa na safari rahisi.

Mimi nadhani kosa lingine tunalofanya ni kutegemea kuwa wabunge au hata viongozi wote wa Chadema wata-march lock step. Hii haiwezekani katika chama chochote chenye chembe ya demokrasia. Kukataa hotuba ya rais ni symbolic na uzito wake hautaondolewa kama kuna baadhi ya wabunge au wanachama wao wanashindwa kujizuia kuhudhuria mnuso. Kwa upande wangu, hii hali ya kutaka kuzuia mawazo tofauti ndani ya chama ni hatari kuliko kitu kingine chochote maana watadumaa.

Hivi kweli mlitegemea result zozote ndani ya mwezi mmoja? Too optimistic hasa ukiangalia kuwa legal channels karibu zote zina vizingiti.

Pamoja na yote haya, ushauri wako una mantikl.

Amandla.....

Fundi Mchundo said:

Hivi ni wapi ambapo wabunge wanalazimika kuwepo wakati Rais anahutubia? Ni haki ya kila mbunge kufanya kile ambacho anaamini ni haki ili mradi havunji sheria. Mpaka sasa sijaona mahali ambapo panasema kitendo walichofanya ni uvunjaji wa kanuni yeyote ya bunge au sheria ya nchi. Hisia ya kuwa kwa kufanya hivyo wamemdhalilisha Rais inategemewa kutoka kwenye chama ambacho mgombea wake amepewa ushindi lakini si lazima iwe hivyo mbele ya sheria.

Tofauti na mnavyodhani kuwa kitendo cha hao jamaa kimetoa picha mbaya, ukweli ni kuwa kumetujengea sifa ya kuonyesha kuwa demokrasi yetu imekomaa. Kutakako jenga picha mbaya ni vitendo vindictive kama hivyo vya kudai apology kutoka kwa mwakalishi wa raia aliyetumia haki yake ya ku-dissent. Na hivi kweli wabunge wa chama kimoja wanaweza kweli kupiga kura kuwanyima haki wabunge wenzao haki ya kuwawakilisha waliowachagua kwa kitendo ambacho hata wenyewe wanakiri hakikuvunja kanuni. Hawa waliamka, kimya kimya bila kumtusi mtu sasa leo kweli mnataka kuendelea kuweka miguu yao kwenye moto. Kuendeleza hii kitu ndiko kutaonyesha kuwa kweli hatujaelewa wala hatujakubali maana ya demokrasia. Kama kweli CCM watakazania kuwaadabisha CDM basi watakuwa kama school yard bully ambae hamna mtu mwenye kufikiri atakuwa na sympathy nae. The mature thing ni wao kusimama na kulaani kitendo cha CDM na ku-move on.

Hayo ya kikundi kimoja ndani ya CDM kuomba msamaha ni hadithi ya Ali Nacha. Wasemaji wa chama hicho wanajulikana. Msimamo wa chama chao utabaki pale pale hata kama wabunge binafsi watatofautiana na uongozi. Ndiyo demokrasia.

Amandla.......

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FM,

Mimi sina tatizo na walkout whatsoever. Nina tatizo na the fact kwamba hawajafanya zaidi ya walkout. Walkout inaweza kufaa katika publicity circles (ambako hata huko nako kuna argument inaweza kuwekwa kwamba walkout ina backfire), lakini kama ulivyosema wewe na constitutional scholars wengine, in itself haina effect. Hai mu invalidate rais, haibadili katiba, haifanyi chochote zaidi ya show tu.

Ndiyo maana nasema CHADEMA haina strategy. Imeingia katika a "dead end street" bila kujua kwamba huko mbele hakuna pa kutokea. Imemsusia rais Kikwete wakati inajua kwamba ni lazima i deal naye.

Unamsusia Kikwete wakati umetoka kupiga kura katika confirmation process ya PM Mizengo Pinda ambaye Kikwete kampendekeza? Where is the strategy in that?

Chama chenye strategy kingeamua moja kati ya haya mawili.

1. Kataa matokeo ya uchaguzi, onyesha ushahidi wapi kura zimeibiwa, kataa kumtambua rais. Itisha maandamano nchi nzima, shirikisha vyombo credible vya kimataifa. CHADEMA hata ushahidi kuuweka wazi mpaka leo mbinde, obviously hawakuweza kufanya hili.

2. OK, CCM obviously wamechakachua. Je tuna ushahidi wa kutosha kufanya mgomo na kukataa matokeo ya uchaguzi? In legal circles the battle is won not by reasoning on what happenned, but what you can prove happenned. Kwa hiyo kama CHADEMA haina ushahidi wa kutosha kufanya a frontal attack on the legitimacy of the CCM victory, especially given our constitution and it's Draconian codes, wangekubali kushindwa tu na kufanya kazi ndani ya system ili kuishinda CCM. Watu wameonyesha kuwa wana imani na CHADEMA vya kutosha kuwawezesha CHADEMA kufanya kazi ndani ya system kuitoa CCM, au hata kama si kuitoa CCM moja kwa moja, kuonmgeza ushindi.

Lakini walichofanya CHADEMA ni kuchukua the worst of both worlds. Kwa sisi radicals tuliotaka kuona maandamano nchi nzima (kama ushahidi upo) wanaonekana kwamba wanafanya pandering kwa CCM kwa kumkubali Kikwete huku wakikataa matokeo ya uchaguzi.

Kwa moderates walionywesha maji ya ku revere amani yetu at whatever cost, wanaonekana wagomvi wasio ushahidi wanaotaka ulalamishi kwa ushindi halali.

Kinachobakia sasa wanabaki na "the faithful" tu, hata kina Mwanakijiji of this world wanaanza kuwaona immature.

Mzee Mwanakijiji said:

I'm going to say this in very categorical terms. And I mean every single word here in: CHADEMA must apologize to President Kikwete, its members, supporters and all Tanzanians in general. Why you may ask:

a. For leading people to believe that the elections were somehow not as free or fair as expected.

b. By leading people to believe that the presidential election results were somewhat tampered with, sabotaged or somewhat were fraudulent.

c. By suggesting that the National Electoral Commission colluded with CCM to ensure that president Kikwete remain in power.

d. By making people believe that they were the victims of a corrupt political system.

e. For walking out of the parliament when President Kikwete was about to address the nation protesting the legitimacy of the electoral results that put Kikwete in power. We now know that this was a wrong decision bases on what the CC of Chadema has decided.

What does all this mean? It simply means that Chadema has lost the argument on the fairness of the elections. It has lost the argument that NEC somewhat conducted one of the worst elections ever in the United Tanzania. In a long run this is what is going to happen.:

a. CCM will NOT and I'm stating with sense of absolute certainty - WILL NOT initiate or even allow the process to write a new constitution. The best they are going to is a cosmetic amendments to the constitution. Specifically, just those areas that cover NEC.

b. Chadema will go to the next elections from a position of weakness compared to the position it founds itself in during the 2010 elections.

c. Chadema has taken a position of strategic postponement of its internal problems. Once again it seems there is a lack of leadership; while others see the recent moves within Chadema as the most "intelligent" or "strategic" I see them as decisions of political expediency. One, Chadema is not United not in leadership but in vision, decisions and political positions and secondly, they are still thinking in terms of being an opposition party. CCM will definitely will like to maintain that status quo.

In short, Chadema SHOULD apologize, initiate a process of self assessment, correction and rebuilding. Otherwise, LET IT continue to dig its its own grave of political oblivion. They asked the people to support them, they argued for change in their manifesto, but when push came to shovel, Chadema flinched and flinching they continue.

I'm done with one too. Sigusi tena and those are my points and I'm sticking to each one of them.

Either Freedom or Death,

MMM

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Since I joined JF, I have been reading your posts between lines and understood you BUT with this one, I need sufficient time to sit down and learn wht you are writing and what you mean.

I know Tanzanians knows that the election was not fair. Observers knows the same. Even CCM members knows. where do you get what you are writing?

May be you have been bought, its not normal!! You will soon tell us that all the mineral contracts are benefiting us to our satisfaction etc.

All the best in your new direction.

QUALITY said:

Since I joined JF, I have been reading your posts between lines and understood you BUT with this one, I need sufficient time to sit down and learn wht you are writing and what you mean.

I know Tanzanians knows that the election was not fair. Observers knows the same. Even CCM members knows. where do you get what you are writing?

May be you have been bought, its not normal!! You will soon tell us that all the mineral contracts are benefiting us to our satisfaction etc.

All the best in your new direction.

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Bottom line hapa ni ndogo tu.

Huwezi kuanzisha kesi ambayo huna ushahidi nayo.

Ukianzisha kesi ambayo huna ushahidi nayo, kimsingi ndio unaleta mambo haya ya ya kukosa strategy.

Fundi Mchundo said:

Mimi naona kama vile ni mapema mno kuwahuku hawa Chadema na kusema kuwa wanapoteza political capital yao. Hata miezi miwili haijaisha na tayari watu wanataka kwa-write off! Hivi kweli hao wabunge wao wachache walionao tulitegemea kweli watakuwa na safari rahisi.

Mimi nadhani kosa lingine tunalofanya ni kutegemea kuwa wabunge au hata viongozi wote wa Chadema wata-march lock step. Hii haiwezekani katika chama chochote chenye chembe ya demokrasia. Kukataa hotuba ya rais ni symbolic na uzito wake hautaondolewa kama kuna baadhi ya wabunge au wanachama wao wanashindwa kujizuia kuhudhuria mnuso. Kwa upande wangu, hii hali ya kutaka kuzuia mawazo tofauti ndani ya chama ni hatari kuliko kitu kingine chochote maana watadumaa.

Hivi kweli mlitegemea result zozote ndani ya mwezi mmoja? Too optimistic hasa ukiangalia kuwa legal channels karibu zote zina vizingiti.

Pamoja na yote haya, ushauri wako una mantikl.

Amandla.....

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FM:

Ukweli sijaandika kitu chochote kuhusiana na mambo ya uchaguzi uliopita kiundani. Hivyo maoni yangu nayatoa tu kwa kuangalia matokeo ya kisiasa. Moja ya Slogans za CHADEMA katika uchaguzi ilikuwa: USICHAGUE CHAMA, CHAGUA MTU.

Ingawaje Slogan hii ilitumika kama selling point, kwa uchambuzi wa posti ya Mwanakijiji naweza kusema ina-characterize chama chenyewe baada ya uchaguzi.

Kiranga said:

FM,

Mimi sina tatizo na walkout whatsoever. Nina tatizo na the fact kwamba hawajafanya zaidi ya walkout. Walkout inaweza kufaa katika publicity circles (ambako hata huko nako kuna argument inaweza kuwekwa kwamba walkout ina backfire), lakini kama ulivyosema wewe na constitutional scholars wengine, in itself haina effect. Hai mu invalidate rais, haibadili katiba, haifanyi chochote zaidi ya show tu.

Ndiyo maana nasema CHADEMA haina strategy. Imeingia katika a "dead end street" bila kujua kwamba huko mbele hakuna pa kutokea. Imemsusia rais Kikwete wakati inajua kwamba ni lazima i deal naye.

Unamsusia Kikwete wakati umetoka kupiga kura katika confirmation process ya PM Mizengo Pinda ambaye Kikwete kampendekeza? Where is the strategy in that?

Chama chenye strategy kingeamua moja kati ya haya mawili.

1. Kataa matokeo ya uchaguzi, onyesha ushahidi wapi kura zimeibiwa, kataa kumtambua rais. Itisha maandamano nchi nzima, shirikisha vyombo credible vya kimataifa. CHADEMA hata ushahidi kuuweka wazi mpaka leo mbinde, obviously hawakuweza kufanya hili.

2. OK, CCM obviously wamechakachua. Je tuna ushahidi wa kutosha kufanya mgomo na kukataa matokeo ya uchaguzi? In legal circles the battle is won not by reasoning on what happenned, but what you can prove happenned. Kwa hiyo kama CHADEMA haina ushahidi wa kutosha kufanya a frontal attack on the legitimacy of the CCM victory, especially given our constitution and it's Draconian codes, wangekubali kushindwa tu na kufanya kazi ndani ya system ili kuishinda CCM. Watu wameonyesha kuwa wana imani na CHADEMA vya kutosha kuwawezesha CHADEMA kufanya kazi ndani ya system kuitoa CCM, au hata kama si kuitoa CCM moja kwa moja, kuonmgeza ushindi.

Lakini walichofanya CHADEMA ni kuchukua the worst of both worlds. Kwa sisi radicals tuliotaka kuona maandamano nchi nzima (kama ushahidi upo) wanaonekana kwamba wanafanya pandering kwa CCM kwa kumkubali Kikwete huku wakikataa matokeo ya uchaguzi.

Kwa moderates walionywesha maji ya ku revere amani yetu at whatever cost, wanaonekana wagomvi wasio ushahidi wanaotaka ulalamishi kwa ushindi halali.

Kinachobakia sasa wanabaki na "the faithful" tu, hata kina Mwanakijiji of this world wanaanza kuwaona immature.

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Mimi nadhani mna-under estimate uzito wa kukataa kuhudhuria uapishwaji wa Rais na kutoka nje ya bunge wakati wa hotuba yake. Vitendo vyote hivi vilikuwa unimaginable si muda mrefu uliopita. Lakini sidhani kama Chadema walikuwa na lengo la kuangusha serikali. Haya yalikuwa ni matumaini ya nyie radicals lakini si ya viongozi wa Chadema. Wao waliona kuwa baada ya kuweka wazi msimamo wao ni busara zaidi kuendelea na kazi ambayo waliowachagua wamewatuma. Ukweli ni kuwa nchi yetu bado hatujafikia mahali ambapo maandamano kama hayo unayoyazungumzia yangeisha kwa amani. Kwa kuyaendekeza wangeweza kutoa nafasi ya agent provocateurs kupenyezwa na kusababisha fujo ambazo zingewa.tarnish milele.

Kuhusu uchakachuaji na nadhani vile vile onus iko wenye serikali kuonyesha kuwa Chadema ni waongo. Hii ingeweza kufanyika tu kwa kuunda tume huru kufanya uchunguzi maana shutuma hizi ni mbaya mno.

Kwangu mimi cha msingi zaidi ni pande zote mbili kuonyesha maturity na kuhakikisha kuwa tofauti zao zinabaki za kisiasa na amani tuliyonayo haiwi-threatened. Tukiipoteza, kuirudihs itakuwa kazi.

Amandla........

Fundi Mchundo said:

Mimi nadhani mna-under estimate uzito wa kukataa kuhudhuria uapishwaji wa Rais na kutoka nje ya bunge wakati wa hotuba yake. Vitendo vyote hivi vilikuwa unimaginable si muda mrefu uliopita. Lakini sidhani kama Chadema walikuwa na lengo la kuangusha serikali. Haya yalikuwa ni matumaini ya nyie radicals lakini si ya viongozi wa Chadema. Wao waliona kuwa baada ya kuweka wazi msimamo wao ni busara zaidi kuendelea na kazi ambayo waliowachagua wamewatuma. Ukweli ni kuwa nchi yetu bado hatujafikia mahali ambapo maandamano kama hayo unayoyazungumzia yangeisha kwa amani. Kwa kuyaendekeza wangeweza kutoa nafasi ya agent provocateurs kupenyezwa na kusababisha fujo ambazo zingewa.tarnish milele.

Kuhusu uchakachuaji na nadhani vile vile onus iko wenye serikali kuonyesha kuwa Chadema ni waongo. Hii ingeweza kufanyika tu kwa kuunda tume huru kufanya uchunguzi maana shutuma hizi ni mbaya mno.

Kwangu mimi cha msingi zaidi ni pande zote mbili kuonyesha maturity na kuhakikisha kuwa tofauti zao zinabaki za kisiasa na amani tuliyonayo haiwi-threatened. Tukiipoteza, kuirudihs itakuwa kazi.

Amandla........

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Nilishasema hapo juu, kimsingi hii ni fluff isiyo na clear strategy, dead end street.

Utakataaje matokeo na kumkubali rais?

Kuhusu uchakachuaji, onus ya ku prove guilt initially haiwi kwa the accused hata siku moja, siku zote inaanguka kwa the accuser.

Kwenye sheria kwa mfano, kuna kitu kinaitwa "burden of proof".

Ukisema mimi nimeficha madawa ya kulevya nyumbani kwangu, huwezi kunitaka ni prove kwamba sina madawa ya kulevya, that is proving a negative, it cannot be done.

On the other habd unaweza kuleta sniffer dogs mara moja na kuonyesha beyond doubt kwamba nimeyachimbia madawa ya kulevya katika kona fulani.

Originally Posted by Mzee Mwanakijiji

Feb 8, Bunge jipya litakapoanza wabunge wa CCM wakiwa wameunganishwa kwa lengo la kudhoofisha Chadema watatoa hoja rasmi ya kutaka wabunge wa Chadema kuomba radhi Bunge kwa kitendo chao cha kutoka Bungeni ambacho kilionekana kumdharirisha Rais, na kujenga picha mbaya kwa taifa. Watatakiwa waombe msamaha au watapigiwa kura ya kufungiwa watoke hadi watakapokuwa tayari kufanya hivyo. Hoja zitakazotolewa kwa kiasi kikubwa ni hizi hizi nilizozianisha.

a. Je, Wabunge hao wawe tayari kuomba msamaha ili waendelee kushiriki vikao vya Bunge
b. Je, Wakiambiwa watamke wazi kuwa JK ni Rais kwa sababu ni mshindi si kwa sababu ametangazwa na Tume watakuwa tayari?
c. Je, wakiambiwa watambue hayo yote unconditionally (yaani wasilalamikie kabisa uchaguzi)

Je wafanye hivyo? Je, mnafikiri watakuwa wamoja kukubali kuchukua msimamo wa pamoja?

Itakuwaje kama kundi moja ndani ya Chadema litakuja na kusema "tuombe tu msamaha ili tuyamalize" na kundi jingine likasema "hatuombi msamaha" halafu wabunge wa CCM wakasema wako tayari kutambua msamaha hata wa mbunge mmoja mmoja itakuwaje?

Kweli kabisa kuna watu wanafikiria kuwa CCM watawaacha wabunge wa Chadema warudi Bungeni na kuendelea na vikao bila kuwalipisha gharama?

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Hakuna sababu ya Wabunge wa CHADEMA kuomba msamaha kwa kutoka nje ya Bunge wakati Kikwete anahotubia. HAWAKUVUNJA SHERIA yoyote, hata kama wabunge wa CCM wana majority Bungeni watawasuspend wabunge wa CHADEMA kwa hoja gani?

Kwanza wakifanya hivyo ndiyo watakuwa wenyewe wanazidi kulikuza hili jambo na kuwapatia umaarufu zaidi. Kumbuka Zitto Kabwe alivyokuwa catapulted to national political stardom na kuonekana shujaa wa taifa baada ya wabunge wa CCM kumfungia.

Nasisitiza kuwa kutoka nje ya Bunge ilikuwa uamuzi wa kishujaa kwa wabunge wa CHADEMA. Kumtambua Kikwete ni jambo la busara kwani sheria iliyopo ndiyo hiyo. Sasa wakae chini na Kikwete na kudai Tume Huru ya Uchaguzi na Katiba Mpya.

Kiranga said:

FM,

Mimi sina tatizo na walkout whatsoever. Nina tatizo na the fact kwamba hawajafanya zaidi ya walkout. Walkout inaweza kufaa katika publicity circles (ambako hata huko nako kuna argument inaweza kuwekwa kwamba walkout ina backfire), lakini kama ulivyosema wewe na constitutional scholars wengine, in itself haina effect. Hai mu invalidate rais, haibadili katiba, haifanyi chochote zaidi ya show tu.

Ndiyo maana nasema CHADEMA haina strategy. Imeingia katika a "dead end street" bila kujua kwamba huko mbele hakuna pa kutokea. Imemsusia rais Kikwete wakati inajua kwamba ni lazima i deal naye.

Unamsusia Kikwete wakati umetoka kupiga kura katika confirmation process ya PM Mizengo Pinda ambaye Kikwete kampendekeza? Where is the strategy in that?

Chama chenye strategy kingeamua moja kati ya haya mawili.

1. Kataa matokeo ya uchaguzi, onyesha ushahidi wapi kura zimeibiwa, kataa kumtambua rais. Itisha maandamano nchi nzima, shirikisha vyombo credible vya kimataifa. CHADEMA hata ushahidi kuuweka wazi mpaka leo mbinde, obviously hawakuweza kufanya hili.

2. OK, CCM obviously wamechakachua. Je tuna ushahidi wa kutosha kufanya mgomo na kukataa matokeo ya uchaguzi? In legal circles the battle is won not by reasoning on what happenned, but what you can prove happenned. Kwa hiyo kama CHADEMA haina ushahidi wa kutosha kufanya a frontal attack on the legitimacy of the CCM victory, especially given our constitution and it's Draconian codes, wangekubali kushindwa tu na kufanya kazi ndani ya system ili kuishinda CCM. Watu wameonyesha kuwa wana imani na CHADEMA vya kutosha kuwawezesha CHADEMA kufanya kazi ndani ya system kuitoa CCM, au hata kama si kuitoa CCM moja kwa moja, kuonmgeza ushindi.

Lakini walichofanya CHADEMA ni kuchukua the worst of both worlds. Kwa sisi radicals tuliotaka kuona maandamano nchi nzima (kama ushahidi upo) wanaonekana kwamba wanafanya pandering kwa CCM kwa kumkubali Kikwete huku wakikataa matokeo ya uchaguzi.

Kwa moderates walionywesha maji ya ku revere amani yetu at whatever cost, wanaonekana wagomvi wasio ushahidi wanaotaka ulalamishi kwa ushindi halali.

Kinachobakia sasa wanabaki na "the faithful" tu, hata kina Mwanakijiji of this world wanaanza kuwaona immature.

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Kiranga:

Hiyo walkout ni tatizo. Symbolic Gestures wakati mwingine zina maana kubwa sana katika mambo ya kisiasa. Na kama isingekuwa na maana wasingetumia muda mwingi kwenye PR and damage control baada ya kuonekana watu wanajirusha kwenye mnuso.

Zakumi said:

Kiranga:

Hiyo walkout ni tatizo. Symbolic Gestures wakati mwingine zina maana kubwa sana katika mambo ya kisiasa. Na kama isingekuwa na maana wasingetumia muda mwingi kwenye PR and damage control baada ya kuonekana watu wanajirusha kwenye mnuso.

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Ni tatizo insofar as haijafuatishwa na kitu substantive.

Kwa wachambuzi wa mambo, CHADEMA hapa inaweza kuonekana ni chama cha symbolic gestures tu, kisicho na strategy ya mapambano halisi zaidi ya hizi symbolic gestures.

Watanzania wanahitaji zaidi ya symbolic gestures. CHADEMA wana mkakati gani kuhusu regime change na constitutional conference ?

mzee mwanakijiji said:

feb 8, bunge jipya litakapoanza wabunge wa ccm wakiwa wameunganishwa kwa lengo la kudhoofisha chadema watatoa hoja rasmi ya kutaka wabunge wa chadema kuomba radhi bunge kwa kitendo chao cha kutoka bungeni ambacho kilionekana kumdharirisha rais, na kujenga picha mbaya kwa taifa. Watatakiwa waombe msamaha au watapigiwa kura ya kufungiwa watoke hadi watakapokuwa tayari kufanya hivyo. Hoja zitakazotolewa kwa kiasi kikubwa ni hizi hizi nilizozianisha.

A. Je, wabunge hao wawe tayari kuomba msamaha ili waendelee kushiriki vikao vya bunge
b. Je, wakiambiwa watamke wazi kuwa jk ni rais kwa sababu ni mshindi si kwa sababu ametangazwa na tume watakuwa tayari?
C. Je, wakiambiwa watambue hayo yote unconditionally (yaani wasilalamikie kabisa uchaguzi)

je wafanye hivyo? Je, mnafikiri watakuwa wamoja kukubali kuchukua msimamo wa pamoja?

Itakuwaje kama kundi moja ndani ya chadema litakuja na kusema "tuombe tu msamaha ili tuyamalize" na kundi jingine likasema "hatuombi msamaha" halafu wabunge wa ccm wakasema wako tayari kutambua msamaha hata wa mbunge mmoja mmoja itakuwaje?

Kweli kabisa kuna watu wanafikiria kuwa ccm watawaacha wabunge wa chadema warudi bungeni na kuendelea na vikao bila kuwalipisha gharama?

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wewe ni msemaji wa ccm? Au unawapa strategy ccm za kuuwa upinzani? Au una cheo cha kufikiri kwa niaba ya ccm?
Mmm karibu new habari corporation, ur most wellcome, kweli ukistaajabu ya mussa basi subili uyaone ya filauni.

Watu wanavyoilaumu CHADEMA utadhani CCM wao ni ma genious kumbe wapi! Nchi nzima ni ya vilaza tu.

Halafu kazi ya kulaumu na kukosoa (husuan after the fact) ni nyepesi sana na karibu kila mtu anaiweza.

Mwanakijiji umezua jambo ujue.....

Halafu mgao wa umeme na maji vipi? Umetatuliwa? Lol

Kiranga said:

Nilishasema hapo juu, kimsingi hii ni fluff isiyo na clear strategy, dead end street.

Utakataaje matokeo na kumkubali rais?

Kuhusu uchakachuaji, onus ya ku prove guilt initially haiwi kwa the accused hata siku moja, siku zote inaanguka kwa the accuser.

Kwenye sheria kwa mfano, kuna kitu kinaitwa "burden of proof".

Ukisema mimi nimeficha madawa ya kulevya nyumbani kwangu, huwezi kunitaka ni prove kwamba sina madawa ya kulevya, that is proving a negative, it cannot be done.

On the other habd unaweza kuleta sniffer dogs mara moja na kuonyesha beyond doubt kwamba nimeyachimbia madawa ya kulevya katika kona fulani.

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Kwani Al Gore alipokubali uamuzi wa Supreme Court ina maana kuwa alitambua matokeo ya uchaguzi Florida? Kumkubali Rais hakuna maana ya kutambua matokeo.

Hilo la burden of proof linategemea mazingira. Kama wewe ni mtu unayehishimika katika jamii halafu mimi lofa nikautangazia umma kuwa una madawa ya kulevya, ukikaa kimya jamii itajuwa kuwa kuna jambo. Unachoweza kufanya ni kukaribisha watu waje nyumbani kwako na wapekuwe kila mahali ili kuthibitisha kuwa hauna madawa hayo au uniburuze mahakamani ambako nitalazimishwa kutoa ushahidi. Kwa upande mwingine ni kuwa mimi lofa inawezekana kuwa nilikuona ukiingiza madawa hayo lakini kwa ulofa wangu sikuweza kupiga picha au kuweka ushahidi wa aina yeyote ( hilo la sniffer dogs ndio kabisa!). Tactic yangu inawezekana ni kuku-provoke ili unipeleke mahakamani ambako nitaweza kuapa kuwa nilikuona ukiingiza mzigo na ambako nitaweza kudai hata nifanyiwe polygraph test kuthibitisha ukweli wa maneno yangu!

Amandla........

Fundi Mchundo said:

Kwani Al Gore alipokubali uamuzi wa Supreme Court ina maana kuwa alitambua matokeo ya uchaguzi Florida? Kumkubali Rais hakuna maana ya kutambua matokeo.

Hilo la burden of proof linategemea mazingira. Kama wewe ni mtu unayehishimika katika jamii halafu mimi lofa nikautangazia umma kuwa una madawa ya kulevya, ukikaa kimya jamii itajuwa kuwa kuna jambo. Unachoweza kufanya ni kukaribisha watu waje nyumbani kwako na wapekuwe kila mahali ili kuthibitisha kuwa hauna madawa hayo au uniburuze mahakamani ambako nitalazimishwa kutoa ushahidi. Kwa upande mwingine ni kuwa mimi lofa inawezekana kuwa nilikuona ukiingiza madawa hayo lakini kwa ulofa wangu sikuweza kupiga picha au kuweka ushahidi wa aina yeyote ( hilo la sniffer dogs ndio kabisa!). Tactic yangu inawezekana ni kuku-provoke ili unipeleke mahakamani ambako nitaweza kuapa kuwa nilikuona ukiingiza mzigo na ambako nitaweza kudai hata nifanyiwe polygraph test kuthibitisha ukweli wa maneno yangu!

Amandla........

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Good point Fundi. Kuna watu Bush hawakumtambua kama raisi wao kwa kipindi chote cha miaka nane.

Kutokutambua mara nyingi huwaga ni symbolic tu kutuma ujumbe.

matola said:

wewe ni msemaji wa ccm? Au unawapa strategy ccm za kuuwa upinzani? Au una cheo cha kufikiri kwa niaba ya ccm?
Mmm karibu new habari corporation, ur most wellcome, kweli ukistaajabu ya mussa basi subili uyaone ya filauni.

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halafu malaria sugu mpaka sasa hajachangia lolote kwenye hii hoja, au mmm ndio maleria sugu. Nina mashaka makubwa, na zile typing errow za maleria sugu sio za kukosea ni mkakati maalum wa kupoteza identity.
Kumbe hapa kuna watu they mean bussiness!!!

Matola said:

wewe ni msemaji wa ccm? Au unawapa strategy ccm za kuuwa upinzani? Au una cheo cha kufikiri kwa niaba ya ccm?
Mmm karibu new habari corporation, ur most wellcome, kweli ukistaajabu ya mussa basi subili uyaone ya filauni.

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The same old dumbing down of issues to "If you are not with us, you must be with our archenemy CCM".

So low. We cannot adopt a pointed criticality when it comes to CCM, but employ a different standard when it comes to CHADEMA.