Babu wa Loliondo "avuliwa nguo"

[Chamoto]

Whether the universe is finite or infinite, whether subatomic particles can be divided infinitely or not, any of these outcomes do not prove the existence of god. You are trying to connect two unrelated things.
Can you show me why do you think god exists?

Nothing comes from nothing, there must be a source. Wewe mwenyewe unaamini law of conservation of energy, sasa iweje matter ijitengeneze yenyewe bila kuwa na force kutoka nje (talking about bing bang theory).

You cannot prove a negative directly without proving a positive
Take the challenge, prove to me that god exists.

Unasema huwezi kuprove negative? Mbona kuna concept nyingi tuu tuna prove validity ya logic yake kwa kutumia proof by contradiction. kwani huko siyo kuprove negative?

 

[Kiranga]

So essentially Douglas S Winnail is basically preaching and preaching, almost village preacher type. And then he comes to the Proofs.

This is where I get rather interested.

Proof 1
Creation Demands a Creator - actually no, creation demands a creative process, which does not necessarily demand a creator. Random processes, given enough time can evolve into a creative process (creative in a totally purposeless but self enhancing way, as in say, evolution). So from this line of thought you can argue evolution by natural selection is a creative process, but it does not demand a creator

Proof 2 Life Demands a Life Giver
When you see this, especially coming right after proof 1, you begin to wonder whether this guy has enough arguments. This is basically the same argument recycled under the banner of "life'. I have already addressed this above with the evolution example.

Proof 3 Laws Demand a Lawgiver
Same old argument recycled again. My question is, how do you know that that lawgiver is not "the symmetry of nature" or "mathematics" ? How do you know that the lawgiver is god ? Is this guy running out of arguments in his first proof?

Proof 4 Design Demands a Designer
Basically same shyt, yeah, this guy is out of arguments. I say the same thing. If design demands a designer, how do you know that that designer is not "the symmetry of nature" or "mathematics"? How do you know it is god ?

Proof 5 Fulfilled Prophetic Promises
Fulfilled my foot, Nostradamus can claim that too. The second law of thermodyunamics predicts a closed system is always going from order to disorder, from low entropy to high entropy, so what fulfilment? Hogwash.

In addition there is no reason why some zealous ppl wouldn't order the fulfilment o ancient prophecy, my question is. Yesu alipowaambia wayahudi fulani kwamba hawataionja mauti kabla ya kurudi kwake mara ya pili, wako wapi wayahudi wale ambao leo wanatakiwa kuwa na mika zaidi ya 2000 ? Mbona hiyo prophecy haisemwi? Huyu si alikuwa mwana wa mungu huyu ?

Proof 6 Answered prayer

How about watu wanaoshindwa kuponywa na babu wa Loliondo despite prayers? Usitake watu wa focus kwenye happenstances na coincidences na placebo effects zinazoitwa answered prayers huku ukikataa kuangalia mara zote ambazo hupati majibu kwa sala. The test of a chain's strength is not on it's strongest point, rather on it's weakest point.

Proof 7 A way of Life that Works
Works according to whom? Agano la kale lina code of hygiene iliyopatikana kwa trial and error, kitabu kikawaambia watu wakinya (asjakum) wafukie mashonde na wasiyaache ovyo. If this works, it is not because there is a god, It is because burying excreta means less exposure to bacteria.

Agano la kale hilo hilo linasema tuwaue kwa kuwapiga mawe wazinzi, how is that a way of life that works? Sounds more like a way of death that works to me.

Just because the bible prescribe a working more (if at all it does that) this does not prove it is a work of god. Some very wise people can sit down and devise a way of life that works, and not necessarily need a god. In my opinion the secular humanists, some of them anyway, have a higher moral standard than most of Christendom, and they do not need god to validate them. So this idea is misguided at best.

Proof 8 A Coming Judgment

This guy is hilarious, he is trying to say that something which hasn't even happenned is proof that god exists!

Ushaniboa, hata huyo wa pili sijui kama ninataka kumsoma.

 

[Chamoto]

Kiranga is back and you can see him

Yupo hapa na boombastic yake hapa sijui anataka kumtisha nani (LOL).

 

[Kiranga]

Nothing comes from nothing, there must be a source. Wewe mwenyewe unaamini law of conservation of energy, sasa iweje matter ijitengeneze yenyewe bila kuwa na force kutoka nje (talking about bing bang theory).

Sasa kwa nini lazima source iwe mungu? Kwa nini source isiwe symmetry of nature, or mathematical elegancy? Kwa nini ni lazima iwe mungu?

Ukisoma quantum physics, utaona kwamba many commonly held assumptions are only due to the poverty of our mids and our conditioned biases. Tunaona wote tunazaliwa na baba na mama, basi automatically tunafikiri kuna baba mkubwa wa vitu vyote yuko juu. Kwa nini huyu baba mkubwa awe a conscious soul? Kwa nini asiweze kuwa an unconscious but powerful random process for example?

The main reason that people believe in god is that it has a feel good quality about it, not as depressing as the more sane assertion that we are a product of a random process and aimless but self correcting evolution. I understand that, but that does not mean that a sweet lie will tempt me over the harsh truth.


Unasema huwezi kuprove negative? Mbona kuna concept nyingi tuu tuna prove validity ya logic yake kwa kutumia proof by contradiction. kwani huko siyo kuprove negative?[/QUOTE]

Ukishasema contradiction 9negative), lazima uwe na diction (positive). Huwezi kuwa na contradiction bila ya kuwa na diction. Kwa hiyo hata hiyo proof by contradiction hai prove kitu kwa negative moja kwa moja, inabidi ipitie kwenye positive (diction)

You still cannot prove a negative. Huwezi ku prove kwamba nyumba yako haina madawa ya kulevya, unaweza ku prove kwamba inayo.

 

[Wacha1]

:focus: Niliwahi kusikia kikombe (dawa ya) cha babu kimepelekwa Muhimbili sijui kwa mkemia mkuu kuchunguzwa. Ni karibu mwezi sasa, matokea yako wapi?

Mimi sipingi uwezo wa kikombe cha babu bali ninachoamini ni kuwa watu wanakimbilia kule kwa sababu mbili:
1. Umasikini na kukata tamaa.
2. Kutokana na kukosa imani na matibabu ya hospitali zetu.
3. Imani za kidini

Moja lolote katika haya yanawasukuma watu kufanya lolote. Cha kushangaza ni kuwa kwa nini serikali mpaka leo haijatoa tamko rasmi. Jana nimeona jinsi serikali ya Wilaya/Mkoa inavyokaa mkao wa kula kwa kutoza kodi lwa masikini hawa wagonjwa waliochanganyikiwa, bila kutoa kauli bila kujenga mazingira ya afya na huduma pale Loliondo. Sasa tusubiri mvua ziendelee watu wapatwe na magonjwa ya kipindupindu.

AIBU KWA SERIKALI

Sasa aibu kwa serikali gani wakati viongozi wakuu wa serikali ndio wanaongoza katika kutumia nguvu za giza? Mimi binafsi sioni kosa la Babu kwa sababu kama dawa yake haitibu watu wataacha wenyewe kwenda kufanya pilgrimage. Nawashauri Wakenye wafunge mpaka kule kwao ili wasiweze kwenda kumtajirisha Babu as they see it. Kila chenye mwanzo kina mwisho dawa ya Babu kama haifanyi kazi hakuna atakayekwenda Loliondo.

Babu big up naona uneitangaza Tanzania kwa muda mfupi tena bila kutumia uwezo ambao serikali yetu imeshindwa kwa miaka 50 na ushee.

 

[Chamoto]

Ukishasema contradiction 9negative), lazima uwe na diction (positive). Huwezi kuwa na contradiction bila ya kuwa na diction. Kwa hiyo hata hiyo proof by contradiction hai prove kitu kwa negative moja kwa moja, inabidi ipitie kwenye positive (diction)

You still cannot prove a negative. Huwezi ku prove kwamba nyumba yako haina madawa ya kulevya, unaweza ku prove kwamba inayo.

Unajua kiranga unachanganya kati ya real world na concept (ideal).
Hata hiyo negative (substraction) unayoisema na yenyewe ni concept tuu. The truth is, we don't have negative in real world, we only have positive (does this concept expanding universe, rings the bell). Thats why in mathematics substraction is called addition of negative numbers.

Miaka 500 iliyopita hakukuwa na negative solution kipindi hicho ulikuwa ukikokotoa nakupata 3 - 8 = x wanasema hakuna jibu (false). Ndipo Cardan alipoipa meaning ya hiyo equation, akasena ni sawa na kwenda mbele hatua tatu na kurudi nyuma hatua nane. Mwishowe unakuwa bado uko nyuma hatua tano (3 - 8 = -5).

kwahiyo hilo swala la ku prove God's existance linaweza kuwa proven in both ways.

 

[Kiranga]

Ukishasema contradiction (negative), lazima uwe na diction (positive). Huwezi kuwa na contradiction bila ya kuwa na diction. Kwa hiyo hata hiyo proof by contradiction hai prove kitu kwa negative moja kwa moja, inabidi ipitie kwenye positive (diction)

You still cannot prove a negative. Huwezi ku prove kwamba nyumba yako haina madawa ya kulevya, unaweza ku prove kwamba inayo.

Unajua kiranga unachanganya kati ya real world na concept (ideal).
Hata hiyo negative (substraction) unayoisema na yenyewe ni concept tuu. The truth is, we don't have negative in real world, we only have positive (does this concept expanding universe, rings the bell). Thats why in mathematics substraction is called addition of negative numbers.

Miaka 500 iliyopita hakukuwa na negative solution kipindi hicho ulikuwa ukikokotoa nakupata 3 - 8 = x wanasema hakuna jibu (false). Ndipo Cardan alipoipa meaning ya hiyo equation, akasena ni sawa na kwenda mbele hatua tatu na kurudi nyuma hatua nane. Mwishowe unakuwa bado uko nyuma hatua tano (3 - 8 = -5).

kwahiyo hilo swala la ku prove God's existance linaweza kuwa proven in both ways. Ndiyo maana mwanzoni nilikwambia kama

Uliza walio na madeni kama wana negative wealth or not, hapo utajua negative is more than just a concept and it is actually very real.

 

[Chamoto]

Uliza walio na madeni kama wana negative wealth or not, hapo utajua negative is more than just a concept and it is actually very real.

Ni kwasababu money/wealth is not real it's an ideal.

 

[Kiranga]

Yupo hapa na boombastic yake hapa sijui anataka kumtisha nani (LOL).

Daang,

Thank you, I am not even trying. Just goes to reinforce my earlier point that you are not on my level. Kama hii globish ndiyo unaona bombastic imagine nikitaka kutisha watu itakuwaje hapa.

 

[Kiranga]

Ni kwasababu money/wealth is not real it's an ideal.

Tell that to the shopkeeper, and try to buy a kilo of sugar.

You will see how real it is.

 

[Azikiwe]

Wasiopona ni wale wanaokiuka masharti, foleni n.kpolisi ili wasipange

 

[Chamoto]

Tell that to the shopkeeper, and try to buy a kilo of sugar.

You will see how real it is.

Anyway, turudi kwenye mada naona tunaongea vitu vingine sasa.

 

[Chamoto]

Sasa kwa nini lazima source iwe mungu? Kwa nini source isiwe symmetry of nature, or mathematical elegancy? Kwa nini ni lazima iwe mungu?

Nini chanzo cha symmetry? kumbuka nothing comes form nothing

 

[Chamoto]

Daang,

Thank you, I am not even trying. Just goes to reinforce my earlier point that you are not on my level. Kama hii globish ndiyo unaona bombastic imagine nikitaka kutisha watu itakuwaje hapa.

You're full of it.

 

[X-PASTER]

Sasa hivi kutakuja na visingizio kuwa watu hawakupona kwa sababu hawakuwa na imani.

 

[MVUMBUZI]

"Hapa Arusha KILA HOSPITALI IMEPOKEA WATU WA MAGONJWA YA PRESHA, KISUKARI, PUMU, N.K. AMBAO WALIKWENDA LOLIONDO "KUTIBIWA" MARADHI HAYO NA BAADA YA KUPATA "NAFUU" (PSYCHOLOGICAL) KWA KAMA WIKI MBILI TU WAMEANZA KUUMWA SERIOUSLY NA KURUDIA DAWA ZAO ZA HOSPITALI TENA.

Pili, mimi nikiwa mfanyakazi wa maabara ya hospitali ya MT Meru, sijaona hata mgonjwa mmoja wa ukimwi aliyepata "seroconversion" yaani kurudi "seronegative from serpositive status". Kinachosikitisha ni kuwa kuna watu hawataki kabisa kusikia yanayosemwa na madaktari na wafanyakazi wa hospitali mbalimbali hapa Arusha ambao kila siku tuna-deal na watu wanaozidiwa baada ya kwenda Loliondo.

Mbaya zaidi kuna magazeti, tv na redio hayataki kabisa kusikia ukweli wa majanga yaliyowafika watu waliokwenda huko. Ajabu pia ni kuwa kuna watu ambao ukitaka kuwaeleza ukweli wanakuona wewe ni mpagani usiyemwamini Mungu. Naomba waandishi wa habari wawe proactive katika kutafuta ukweli na si kutegemea mass hysteria iliyowakumba maelfu ya watu wanaotafuta miujiza kwa nguvu."

Source: MJENGWA - Picha, Habari & Matangazo: Kama Haya Ni Ya Kweli: Tiba Ya ' Babu' Na Ushuhuda Wa Kimaabara

Hiyo highlight inadhihirisha habari hii imepikwa. Kama ni kweli leta statistics zinazoonyesha majina ya hizo hospitali na idadi ya wagonjwa waliozidiwa baada ya kutoka loliondo pia unaweza ku compile list ya majina ya hawa wagonjwa.
Ukifanya hivyo tunaweza kuku amini kwa kiasi fulani

 

[Kiranga]

Sasa hivi kutakuja na visingizio kuwa watu hawakupona kwa sababu hawakuwa na imani.

Hahaha,

You know.

 

[Kiranga]

You're full of it.

And you are totally empty, that's why we can't relate.

 

[Kiranga]

Nini chanzo cha symmetry? kumbuka nothing comes form nothing

Hii argument ya "nothing comes from nothing" actually ina work agains a godhead first mover, kwa sababu uki i apply hata kwake utakuta hata na yeye itabidi awe na chanzo kingine zaidi yake.

Mungu ana chanzo au hana?

Kama ana chanzo je kweli ni mungu?

Kama hana, je unaweza je ku explain hilo under "nothing comes from nothing"? Clearly god (at least under your worldview) is not nothing, how did he come about? Is he the all knowing, all loving, first mover he is reputed to be?

Remember, as you said, nothing comes from nothing.

Just some mental Jiujitsu for your mind.

 

[Chamoto]

Hii argument ya "nothing comes from nothing" actually ina work agains a godhead first mover, kwa sababu uki i apply hata kwake utakuta hata na yeye itabidi awe na chanzo kingine zaidi yake.

Mungu ana chanzo au hana?

Kama ana chanzo je kweli ni mungu?

Kama hana, je unaweza je ku explain hilo under "nothing comes from nothing"? Clearly god (at least under your worldview) is not nothing, how did he come about? Is he the all knowing, all loving, first mover he is reputed to be?

Remember, as you said, nothing comes from nothing.

Just some mental Jiujitsu for your mind.

Kiranga we can argue here till the cows come home but we're not going to have any conclusion because the truth is, we can't explain the existence of God by using empirical data.