Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

Reserved · May 1, 2012

Zakumi said:
I didn't choose to ignore it. But I didn't like your choice of examples. I think Hilter and Gadhafi shouldn't be in this debate.

Lakini Hittler na sera zake ana some +ve contribution zake kuifanya germay kuwa who they are today na wawe mojor force Ulaya na duniani.

KUmsifia hitler nje ya ujerumani na hata ndani kwa baadhi ya watu ni aibu na kosa lakini Ukweli upo palepalea na contribution zake positive atlest kwa wajerumani zipo . Sema tu "Lousspekrer" zenye nguvu kama CNN na BBC amabazo ndio source ya taarifa zetu zinatazma shilingi upande mmoja

Before Hitler germany alichwa mbali sana na nchi kama France na UK.

Zakumi · May 1, 2012

Mkandara said:
My brother please. Land ownership is not a Universal human right, here in Canada we only hold land permit from the sovereign monarch. as to say Wananchi ni wapangaji tu. The land permit signify agreement between land owner and the crown, not between land owner rights to own the land. As to Tanzania, it's the government who owns the land we are just tenants.

Owning properties is a universal human right. Piece of land falls within that blanket. Now with regard to land ownership in Tanzania, probably this is one of the issue we need to discuss and declare collectively because it put Tanzanian
in an unfavorable condition.

Zakumi · May 1, 2012

Ogah said:
tuna demokrasia yenye ugonjwa ambao kila mmoja wetu/vyama vyetu a/vinaufumbia macho...........i mean kwa demokrasia tuliyonayo.......kila atakayeingia madarakani atalia "faulo" kwa mwenzake.........

I agree with about that. But it's our responsibility to correct that. Nobody calls you stupid without your permission.

William J. Malecela · May 2, 2012

engmtolera said:
mada nyingi za bwana william huwa hazina mwisho,yaani ni duara nikimaanisha mtakuwa mnakwenda na kuzunguka na kurudia rudia kile mlichokisema mwanzo

na yeye atasisitiza na majibu yake ya AZIMIO LA ARUSHA HALIKUWA NA TIJA x1000000

kwake yeye hakuna hata mahala penye unafuu hususani AZIMIO LA ARUSHA

na bado william ana amini kuwa hata ufisadi wa leo,kutokuwajibika kwa viongozi,kujilimbikizia mali yote hayo ni zao la AZIMIO LA ARUSHA

Migomo ya wanafunzi,madaktari,mauaji migodini,mirahaba midogo na mikataba feki mogodini bado kaka yangu William anaona ni kosa la AZIMIO LA ARUSHA

gape la wenye nacho na wasionacho,matatizo ya umeme,maji na madawa hosptalini,kudolola kwa uchumi yote hayo yanamfanya william Kulichukia AZIMIO LA ARUSHA

kuuzwa kwa nyumba za serikali zilizojengwa kwa AZIMIO LA ARUSHA, baadhi ya njia za reli kuto kufanya kazi,viwanda kufa,msongamano wa magari na watu DSM kaka William anatupa lawama kwa AZIMIO LA ARUSHA

sijui na bado siamini kama kweli william malecela anaelewa vyema AZIMIO LA ARUSHA kwa nini lilianzishwa,malengo na majukumu ya azimio la arusha

sijaona hata sehemu ambapo william ametueleza faida ya AZIMIO LA ZANZIBAR labda hajui kama lipo na linafanya kazi,ama malengo ya AZIMIO LA ZANZIBAR yanamfurahisha ndio maana haliongelei wala hataki kuligusa

lakini kiukweli AZIMIO LA ARUSHA limefanya makubwa sana ukifananisha na AZIMIO LA ZANZIBAR lililokuja na meno ya kuila nchi na wanyonge kupata tabu kama watumwa ndani ya nchi yao

- Mkuu please, Azimio lingekwua supa ningejionea kama vile amabvyo awamu ya sasa ilivyo supa, CAG ripoti inawekwa wazi kila wananchi anasoma na kujua mahesabu ya serikali, wahujumu wanajadiliwa na kuchukuliwa hatua!

- Azimio lingekwua supa nisingesubiri kuambiwa maneno mengi humu empty, ningejionea mwenyewe au ningesikia basi, I mean ndilo limetufukarisha sana wananchi wa hili taifa, MUNGU AWAJALIE SANA WALIOLIUWA NA PLEASE LISIRUDI TENA!

William.

Ogah · May 2, 2012

Wewe ulisema ifuatavyo...........

W. J. Malecela said:
- Azimio lilikufa natural death ..............William.

Mimi nikasema..........

Ogah said:
DEAD WRONG!.........watu (wachoyo and/or wabinafsi) walienda zao Zanzibar wakakaa kwa makusudio yao kabisa na wakaliua Azimio la Arusha..............

Sasa wewe....."yule yule" unasema ifuatavyo

W. J. Malecela said:
- Waliua Azimio kwa sababu lilikuwa unproductive kwa taifa, na nido watu wenye akili wanavyofanya, kama Azimio ni unproductive mnaliua na kuanza upya na idea zingine, lakini huwezi kurudi kulilia the same ideas zilizoshindwa na kudai zikisomwa vizuri zinatekelezeka, hapana!

William.

Well well well...........pamoja na kwamba unaji-contradict mwenyewe kama nilvyoonyesha hapo juu......I take your point though...........

Ndio maana Tanzania/ Taifa letu linaitwa "kichwa cha mwenda wazimu"..........tunajidharau wenyewe kuwa...kitu kilichokuwa generated na sisi (ofcourse by midifying other people ideas) hakifai......tunaanza kurukia rukia ideologies za watu bila hata kuzi-test kama zinafaa kwa jamii yetu.......Angalia rasilimali zetu zinavyokwapuliwa kila siku kwa sababu ya "Akili" nyingi za watu walioliua Azimio la Arusha..........

Lets say Walioliua Azimio...had brilliant ideas na kwamba wana akili sana.....kama unavyodai.......hivi sasa kama Taifa tunafaidika vipi na hizo ideas............zaidi ya kashfa zilizokithiri kila kukicha..........

Anayefikiri kuwa Azimio la Arusha was dead wrong.............ni muhimu akajijua kuwa he/she is DEAD WRONG in the first place...........

DAR si LAMU · May 2, 2012

Zakumi said:
That's my point. Kila siku wanasiasa na wanazuoni wakitaka umaarufu wa haraka haraka, nyimbo ni kuwasaidia wakulima. Idadi ya watu imeongezeka na eneo la nchi ni lilelile. Hivyo kuna limitations of what we can do with our land.

Zakumi,

...Ukweli huu wanaufahamu wengi tu, kwamba, kilimo si uti wa mgongo wa taifa lolote, hii leo. Land has what is known as diminishing returns. Lakini kwa viwanda, technology na innovation inapelekea kuwapo kitu kinachoitwa increasing returns. Sasa hii ndio inayoleta neema kwa wengi.

...Pili, hizo huwa ni nyimbo haswa, kwani hakuna matendo kabisa, bali zuga tu. Unapompelekea mkulima mbegu zisizoota na mbolea asiyoihitaji -kwani haitamsaidia kukuza mazao- unakuwa na lengo gani? Halafu unamkopa, tena kwa bei ndogo na mwisho unamzuia kuuza anakoona atapata soko zuri -bei kubwa zaidi- unakuwa na nia gani?

...The issue is, we are not serious or some of us are an incompetent lot!

TANU na CCM kwa miaka mingi inatumia pesa nyingi katika huduma za jamii ambazo hazikuzi sekta zingine. Umefika wakati we have to think about that and change.

...Sidhani. Wamepoteza nyingi. Cuba inawezasema imetumia fedha nyingi kwenye hilo eneo.

...Pamoja na yote, naamini wanafahamu au na wameona nini wengine wamefanya na kufanikiwa, tatizo ni uvivu wa kufanya kazi ngumu. To do what the likes of Singapore, Thailand, Taiwan and Company did, involves a lot of hard, back breaking and often times mind bogging work.

...Kilichotokea kwenye azimio la arusha ndicho kinachoendeleo hivi leo katika utekelezaji wa sera mbalimbali. Simply, utekelezaji ni dhaifu au haupo kabisa.

Ogah · May 2, 2012

Zakumi said:
Copy and paste is your idea. What Eric insists are the values of democracy, which give people the right to choose their own system of government and the people who run it.

You wouldn't copy anybody's system of democracy if you allow Tanzanians to practice their own rights.

Agreed on values of demokrasia in principle....however, Valueas za demokrasia hazina budi kuenda sambamba na values za mahitaji yetu yanayosimamiwa na misingi ya maadili na yenye haki.......results za demokrasia zi-reflect hili......hizi demokrasia za kupaka mafuta kwa mgongo wa chupa ndio zinazotu-cost nchi nyingi so called third world..........

Ni upuuzi kupongeza/kukenulia meno values za demokrasia za ku-copy eti kwa sababu tu kuna "mijibwa koko" imeingizwa bungeni kwa wingi...........

Values za Demokrasia tunazohitaji sio zile za ku-take advantage ya ujinga wa wananchi.........values za demokrasia ya kweli ni lazima iendane pia kwa umma kuwa na elimu, afya na mahitaji mengine muhimu kwa wananchi...........

Kama Taifa tukiwa na Maazimio yenye misingi inayokubalika (kama Azimio la Arusha kipindi kile) Kitaifa kwa faida ya wote.........then leta maneno ya demokrasia inayoenda sambamba na hayo maazimio...........

Ogah · May 2, 2012

Zakumi said:
I agree with about that. But it's our responsibility to correct that. Nobody calls you stupid without your permission.

Siku zote Kinga ni bora kuliko kuzuia .........Ukiwa na miiko na maadili in the first place...........huko bungeni utakutana na may be "vijibwa" na si "MIJIBWA"............ni rahisi ku-deal na vijibwa......sasa hivi Waziri wetu Mkuu anatuambia aki-deal na MIJIBWA Taifa letu litayumba/litatetemeka........damn!................je hizi ndio values of democracy tunazohitaji?

DAR si LAMU · May 2, 2012

Zakumi said:
Let me put this way. Nyerere wasn't good in economics and finance.

...I bet he was not a good listener, when it came to those issues. I mean he was not supposed to be good in those. All he needed was to listen to his advisers.

Kobello · May 2, 2012

W. J. Malecela said:
- How about the results of Azimio to compare with those Declarations that got their kick from Azimio as of you?

William.

A Declaration is simply put as a "statement of intent".

As in, what do you intend to do au what type of a nation do u intend to build. It affects the constitution and as you already know, the constitution affects the Laws.

Eric Cartman · May 2, 2012

Ogah said:
Agreed on values of demokrasia in principle....however, Valueas za demokrasia hazina budi kuenda sambamba na values za mahitaji yetu yanayosimamiwa na misingi ya maadili na yenye haki.......results za demokrasia zi-reflect hili......hizi demokrasia za kupaka mafuta kwa mgongo wa chupa ndio zinazotu-cost nchi nyingi so called third world..........

Ni upuuzi kupongeza/kukenulia meno values za demokrasia za ku-copy eti kwa sababu tu kuna "mijibwa koko" imeingizwa bungeni kwa wingi...........

Values za Demokrasia tunazohitaji sio zile za ku-take advantage ya ujinga wa wananchi.........values za demokrasia ya kweli ni lazima iendane pia kwa umma kuwa na elimu, afya na mahitaji mengine muhimu kwa wananchi...........

Kama Taifa tukiwa na Maazimio yenye misingi inayokubalika (kama Azimio la Arusha kipindi kile) Kitaifa kwa faida ya wote.........then leta maneno ya demokrasia inayoenda sambamba na hayo maazimio...........

Mkuu
Acha kupotosha umma kuhusu dhana ya demokrasia, hii aihusuiani chochote na tamaduni wala ways of doing things kwenye jamii, kwa maana hiyo aingiliani na mwenendo wa maisha ya watu in general (depending on the understanding of the era) hila they can be challenged through evolved moral values and understanding of that particular society at the time.

Demokrasia imejikita katika uhusiano wa involment ya wengi kwenye siasa na maamuzi ya kisiasa kwa upande mkubwa. Kwanza neno lenyewe limeanzaia kwenye siasa za ancient Greek between (461bc and 322bc), during that time hata huyo mzungo alikuwa ajaanza slave trade or anything to impact the world affairs.

Demokrasia limetokana na maneno mawili ya Kigiriki ya wakati huo 'Demos' likimaanisha watu na 'Kratia' likimaanisha muongozo wa sheria. Kumbuka wakati huo tamaduni zao zilikuwa zinatawalia na fikra nyingi ambazo zilijaa ukiritimba, ubaguzi na dhana nyingi leo ambazo azitambuliki wala azikubaliki. Hila kwa kuwa tamaduni zinabadilika na mambo mengi yaliyokuwa hayapo kwenye demokrasia ya mgiriki yamebadilika. Again through evolved understandings, the meaning of the word widens.

Hila mzungu awezi kuja kwako kukwambia usioe wake watatu kama tamaduni inakuruhusu hivyo au kwenda kutambika kwenu eti kisa unachukua demokrasia yake. Demokrasia imejikita zaidi katika political involvement za wengi kwenye kuchagua maamuzi ya jamii that is to say huwezi peleka watu maporini waka-risk maisha yao na akina simba kama hawataki kwa phisophy zako bila ya maamuzi yao:hiyo ndio maana ya democracy citizens having choices.

Kuhusu quote yako majibu kesho inataka maelezo, na kukuelezea kwanini AA halifai kabisa si tu kidemokrasia bali hata kialisia.

Eric Cartman · May 2, 2012

kobello said:
A Declaration is simply put as a "statement of intent".

As in, what do you intend to do au what type of a nation do u intend to build. It affects the constitution and as you already know, the constitution affects the Laws.

What type of declaration, maana the hata katiba ya marekani, ujerumani na ufaransa zimetokana na declarations na sheria za nchi aziwezi tungwa nje ya katiba.

Marekani wakizingatia matatizo ya civil war na kujaribu kuweka usawa kutokana na matatizo waliyoyaona in wider state na matakwa ya different ya states baada ya vita. Ujerumani declaration yao ya mwisho baada ya matatizo ya hitler na second world war kutafuta haki za kiajmii, ufaransa declaration yao mwisho baada ya french revolution. Lakini declaration hizi azina political ideologies or economical goals zipo for the purpose of serving the rights of the people. Kwa kutumia maneno ya Abraham Lincoln 'government of the people by the people and for the people'. Unaweza kuona jamaa kaongea lakini misingi yake imetokea kutokana na kuelewa falsafa za zamani sana.

Hizo declaration tatu hapo juu zipo kutatuwa matatizo (au kutokoa philosophy mbadala) kwa jamii na kuweka haki na utu kwenye jamii. Unlike AA ambalo ni pumba tupu lenye kudidimiza haki za ubinadamu na eti tunataka tuliweke kwenye mchakato wa katiba pheew.

Kobello · May 2, 2012

eric cartman said:
Unlike Azimio la AA ambalo ni pumba tupu lenye kudidimiza haki za ubinadamu na eti tuliweke kwenye mchakato wa katiba pheew.

To you!!!
AA is being studied up till now in so many higher institutions as a philosophical document of its own kind. Niambie kifungu cha Azimio la Arusha ambacho ni cha kipuuzi.
Na uniambie kwanini unaona ni cha kipuuzi.... if you base your argument in its practicability (of AD), then tell me if that idea was impractical because of the type of the citizenry that it was imposed to or it's simply utopian?

Zakumi · May 2, 2012

kobello said:
A Declaration is simply put as a "statement of intent".

As in, what do you intend to do au what type of a nation do u intend to build. It affects the constitution and as you already know, the constitution affects the Laws.

Sir Kobello,

Let me agree with you that a declaration is a statement of intent. My question now is who's responsible for making that statement? A leader at the mountain top? The people through a democratic process?

Eric Cartman · May 2, 2012

kobello said:
To you!!!
AA is being studied up till now in so many higher institutions as a philosophical document of its own kind. Niambie kifungu cha Azimio la Arusha ambacho ni cha kipuuzi.
Na uniambie kwanini unaona ni cha kipuuzi.... if you base your argument in its practicability (of AD), then tell me if that idea was impractical because of the type of the citizenry that it was imposed to or it's simply utopian?

You have been posing questions all the time, allow me to reciprocate the compliments for a change.

The underlying philosophy of Arusha Declaration was to attain a self sufficient society, what were it's challenges. Ni jibu na mimi ntakujibu.

Zakumi · May 2, 2012

kobello said:
To you!!!
AA is being studied up till now in so many higher institutions as a philosophical document of its own kind. Niambie kifungu cha Azimio la Arusha ambacho ni cha kipuuzi.
Na uniambie kwanini unaona ni cha kipuuzi.... if you base your argument in its practicability (of AD), then tell me if that idea was impractical because of the type of the citizenry that it was imposed to or it's simply utopian?

Sir,

Out of curiosity, could you please name 10 top universities which study AA as a philosophical feat?

Zakumi · May 2, 2012

Ogah said:
Siku zote Kinga ni bora kuliko kuzuia .........Ukiwa na miiko na maadili in the first place...........huko bungeni utakutana na may be "vijibwa" na si "MIJIBWA"............ni rahisi ku-deal na vijibwa......sasa hivi Waziri wetu Mkuu anatuambia aki-deal na MIJIBWA Taifa letu litayumba/litatetemeka........damn!................je hizi ndio values of democracy tunazohitaji?

Ogah,

In politics check and balance is the mother of all Kinga. To be honest with you my father was a mid-level district officer when Nyerere was still in power,and the practices of government officials at regional, and district levels didn't reflect what Azimio la Arusha postulates.

DAR si LAMU · May 2, 2012

eric cartman said:
Unlike Azimio la AA ambalo ni pumba tupu lenye kudidimiza haki za ubinadamu na eti tuliweke kwenye mchakato wa katiba pheew.

...Kwa maana hiyo, kitu gani ambacho si pumba, katika vyote tulivyonavyo leo hii?

...Ujamaa na Kujitegemea ni sera nzuri kabisa ambayo ikifuatwa kwa kutumia akili na bila uvivu, italifikisha taifa hili mbele kabisa. Mifano hai iko mingi kwenye nchi za wenzetu, tena zenye mifumo wa kiuchumi wa kibepari.

DAR si LAMU · May 2, 2012

Zakumi said:
Ogah, In politics check and balance is the mother of all Kinga. To be honest with you my father was a mid-level district officer when Nyerere was still in power,and the practices of government officials at regional, and district levels didn't reflect what Azimio la Arusha postulates.

...Huwa najiuliza, je, Nyerere alifika mahala akaacha kusimamia A la A au ilikuwaje. Maana, hata kutohamia MM-D chanzo twaweza sema ni Nyerere, kwani yeye ndiye angeanza kuhamia huko. Au?

Zakumi · May 2, 2012

Ogah said:
Agreed on values of demokrasia in principle....however, Valueas za demokrasia hazina budi kuenda sambamba na values za mahitaji yetu yanayosimamiwa na misingi ya maadili na yenye haki.......results za demokrasia zi-reflect hili......hizi demokrasia za kupaka mafuta kwa mgongo wa chupa ndio zinazotu-cost nchi nyingi so called third world..........

Ni upuuzi kupongeza/kukenulia meno values za demokrasia za ku-copy eti kwa sababu tu kuna "mijibwa koko" imeingizwa bungeni kwa wingi...........

Values za Demokrasia tunazohitaji sio zile za ku-take advantage ya ujinga wa wananchi.........values za demokrasia ya kweli ni lazima iendane pia kwa umma kuwa na elimu, afya na mahitaji mengine muhimu kwa wananchi...........

Kama Taifa tukiwa na Maazimio yenye misingi inayokubalika (kama Azimio la Arusha kipindi kile) Kitaifa kwa faida ya wote.........then leta maneno ya demokrasia inayoenda sambamba na hayo maazimio...........

Ogah,

Just because people can't read and write it doesn't mean they are WAJINGA. Just because people live in villages and aren't part of urban sophistication it doesn't mean they can't make reasonable decisions.

If you let people exercise their rights, in a long run they will get it right.

Azimio La Arusha: Why We Were Dead Wrong!

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