Let us stretch our mind II - three tough questions

[YeshuaHaMelech]

lets discuss answer to these three questions:
1. What is the universe?
2. What composes (makes) the universe?
3. What is the shape of the universe?

 

[Mtazamaji]

For past two weeks nimekuwa natazama documentary za mambo haya ya universe.
Inabidi nijicheke cheke maana niliona r maelezo ya wataalam siyaelewi. Nikaacha kungalia hiyo documentya

Ngoja nisubiri darasa. hapa

 

[VoiceOfReason]

The Universe is everything planets, stars, energy space everything....

Everything makes the universe what we know and what we dont know, (all physical matter and energy)

Shape of the universe myself would like to think that its an infinity space where all planets stars etc are scattered, but nobody knows as there is much we dont know about... more info

Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[YeshuaHaMelech]

Please clarify some points here VoR

The Universe is everything planets, stars, energy space everything....

Everything makes the universe what we know and what we dont know, (all physical matter and energy)

So what is exactly this universe is? You will hear some phrases like "the universe is expanding", so if you say the universe is everything then don't you see it does not make sense? How can everything expand? what is it expanding into?

Shape of the universe myself would like to think that its an infinity space where all planets stars etc are scattered, but nobody knows as there is much we dont know about... more info
Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But infinity is not a shape! and you didnt say what is a composition of the universe!

Thanks for throwing your points!

 

[VoiceOfReason]

Please clarify some points here VoR


So what is exactly this universe is? You will hear some phrases like "the universe is expanding", so if you say the universe is everything then don't you see it does not make sense? How can everything expand? what is it expanding into?


But infinity is not a shape! and you didnt say what is a composition of the universe!

Thanks for throwing your points!

From what I have just dig up now the expanding of the universe means that the space is expanding meaning everything is moving far away from everything and stars are constantly being formed... (that means all the debris, earth and stars are moving far apart)

Now from what I personally think there is a huge space of infinity size i cant say the shape (because no one knows for sure) and in this huge space everything is scattered galaxy, stars, debris, planets etc.. therefore this space of infinity size whose shape no one knows for sure is what consists of the universe..., and remember since these objects will keep on moving far from each other and further away the universe will continue expanding.

I have seen this point from Yahoo Answears I think it explains this perfectly:-

Let's say the "Big Bang" - the event that may possibly have created the universe out of nothingness - was a big bag of marbles.

That bag of marbles was opened up and dumped on the floor all at once. The marbles all roll away from that spot, and without any real friction, they keep rolling farther and farther apart. Billions of years pass.

Stars in our galaxy are really spaced apart, but aren't really drifting apart because of gravity amonst them. Galaxies, on the other hand, are perhaps as numerous as stars in the sky - and are veeeery far apart from each other. There's a huge expanse of almost nothing between galaxies.

These galaxies are still spreading outward from the supposed origin of the Big Bang, but some theorize they are slowing down. Gravity between galaxies might be slowing down the outward, runaway spread of galaxies

 

[kotinkarwak]

Saw a program a while back about space travel and the limitations us humans have to overcome to be able to do it. Andromeda is said to be the nearest galaxy that could be similar to our universe, i.e has its own sun, planets and all that. It mentioned a travel to Andromeda space in terms of million light years, generations and generations and generations ... of man who left earth will reach it (same scenario for the return journey) and what they will find back on earch?!?!?!? will earch be there?!?!?... Such figures our mind can't comprehend and hence some perspective questions like where are we in the scheme of things, how big is the universe is not easy to be arrived at. Science and technology are however helping us out in scratching the surface of our neighbouring space and who knows, several hundred generations will look back at our time and wonder, what a bunch of ******, thinking that there is an edge or there was a shape....

We have evolved to understand limits, shapes and a fare bit of distance, these are perspectives that we can deal with to define what is around us. However, these notions do require a reference point from which we are making the comparison, the measure. In space it is now believed that those rules that may apply to this universe/earth may not necessarily be the same, hence our desire to understand something through terms like universe, that calls for a limiting factor to be imposed, like space, means we are limiting an understanding of what could actually be there. Infinity a term itself is assumed to capture the limitlessness of a fact. Now where can that be applied to, and in other circumstances, will that same notion of infinity apply or just cause confusion.

 

[YeshuaHaMelech]

From what I have just dig up now the expanding of the universe means that the space is expanding meaning everything is moving far away from everything and stars are constantly being formed... (that means all the debris, earth and stars are moving far apart)

if universe is everything that is there, and everything is moving away from each other, then where are they moving to? and on red, from my research, no body have seen ANY star being formed. All we observe is death of stars in form of nova and super/hypernova. The rate at which stars dies argues against universe being billions of years as we could have non remained but we have plenty of them

Now from what I personally think there is a huge space of infinity size i cant say the shape (because no one knows for sure) and in this huge space everything is scattered galaxy, stars, debris, planets etc.. therefore this space of infinity size whose shape no one knows for sure is what consists of the universe..., and remember since these objects will keep on moving far from each other and further away the universe will continue expanding.

I'm struggling to understand the infinite size! Anyway, I still wonder what universe really is in scientific perspective. We know house is made of bricks, I wonder what this so called universe is made of :twitch:

I have seen this point from Yahoo Answears I think it explains this perfectly:-

Let's say the "Big Bang" - the event that may possibly have created the universe out of nothingness - was a big bag of marbles.

Dah Imebidi nicheke hapa kwenye bold!

 

[YeshuaHaMelech]

Saw a program a while back about space travel and the limitations us humans have to overcome to be able to do it. Andromeda is said to be the nearest galaxy that could be similar to our universe, i.e has its own sun, planets and all that. It mentioned a travel to Andromeda space in terms of million light years, generations and generations and generations ... of man who left earth will reach it (same scenario for the return journey) and what they will find back on earch?!?!?!? will earch be there?!?!?... Such figures our mind can't comprehend and hence some perspective questions like where are we in the scheme of things, how big is the universe is not easy to be arrived at. Science and technology are however helping us out in scratching the surface of our neighbouring space and who knows, several hundred generations will look back at our time and wonder, what a bunch of ******, thinking that there is an edge or there was a shape....

Universe is mind boggling concept that many of us might take lightly and just for granted. That is why I thought I would bring to great thinkers. Thanks kotinkarwak!

We have barely scratched the surface!

We have evolved to understand limits, shapes and a fare bit of distance, these are perspectives that we can deal with to define what is around us.

How did we do just that? Evolved from what?

However, these notions do require a reference point from which we are making the comparison, the measure. In space it is now believed that those rules that may apply to this universe/earth may not necessarily be the same, hence our desire to understand something through terms like universe, that calls for a limiting factor to be imposed, like space, means we are limiting an understanding of what could actually be there. Infinity a term itself is assumed to capture the limitlessness of a fact. Now where can that be applied to, and in other circumstances, will that same notion of infinity apply or just cause confusion.

I love this quote from Isaac Newton when he used long time in science, he came to this conclusion:
"I was like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me"

 

[kotinkarwak]

You see, when we use emotive words like evolve, our innate being does ponder and ask about that specific idiom. Evolved from what? A recent (emotive choice of word here, since this recent in the great scheme of things is a undautedly a meaningless change in time) historical finding in Tanzania cites the place as the origin of man, there are physical evidence, whose physical resembalance almost defy believe of how similar yet different we are from that skull. We can tell there is a past that we can't explain about that creature, its ancestors hence a starting point for discussion ends up being a moving point.

 

[YeshuaHaMelech]

You see, when we use emotive words like evolve, our innate being does ponder and ask about that specific idiom. Evolved from what? A recent (emotive choice of word here, since this recent in the great scheme of things is a undautedly a meaningless change in time) historical finding in Tanzania cites the place as the origin of man, there are physical evidence, whose physical resembalance almost defy believe of how similar yet different we are from that skull. We can tell there is a past that we can't explain about that creature, its ancestors hence a starting point for discussion ends up being a moving point.

You see, we take and use words without pondering its meaning and implications. For example, the red colored is one where paleontologists and other people who deal with dead thing can just put baseless assumption like that!
How do they know that is a place of man while all they have are just bones?

 

[YeshuaHaMelech]

Now skipping some stuff we come face to face with three giants (For those who have lost track of what the topic really is, though you can discuss anything related)

1. What is the universe?
2. What composes (makes) the universe?
3. What is the shape of the universe?
:laugh:

 

[kotinkarwak]

You see, we take and use words without pondering its meaning and implications. For example, the red colored is one where paleontologists and other people who deal with dead thing can just put baseless assumption like that!
How do they know that is a place of man while all they have are just bones?

Don't think it is baseless, remember they are working in a space that does allow for that to change pending new findings of an earlier evidence that is yet to be found. The wording I think evokes further searching a feeling that there being a posibility that new origins could be found.
However, religion would shy away from citing such emotive statements, it will give generalities that Supreme Being made Man, somewhere in a garden, and almost leaves the rest to the imagination.

 

[YeshuaHaMelech]

Don't think it is baseless, remember they are working in a space that does allow for that to change pending new findings of an earlier evidence that is yet to be found. The wording I think evokes further searching a feeling that there being a posibility that new origins could be found.

I say baseless because no body, even themselves can surely tell that the place was the origin and that those bones are of original man. The reason is, for anybody to know where orginal man was, he should know basic concepts of origins which are yet to be resolved in evolution camp! If they are yet to know the origin of man, how on earth can they even speak of original man?

However, religion would shy away from citing such emotive statements, it will give generalities that Supreme Being made Man, somewhere in a garden, and almost leaves the rest to the imagination.

I agree that there is no chance of improvement, specifically the Bible because of the underlying assumption that God, who is infallible wrote the book and so, if that is the assumption then God cannot be mistaken and there is no room for improving anything.

However, the same problem, I submit, exists in evolution camp, namely that evolution can never be wrong. Although for years evidence is saying otherwise (just read the basics of genetics and you will see impossibility of evolution of life), people still believe and teach evolution as a FACT. That to me presents the same problem you have pointed with creation camp!

 

[kotinkarwak]

I think in general terms we can assume the only fossil found so far is that from Africa (Tanzania). WE now know that the techtonic plates breakup did happen and that from a conducive condition point of view the tropics would have been ideal for live to evolve and thrive, migrations happened to the rest of the worlds planets and that assumption is based on the fossils found there, they are all of a later date as those found in Africa, hence the migration must have been outward, from africa to the rest. As a result it is a fair bet that the origin must be somewhere in Africa, till we find another one elsewhere.

The distinctions between the two camps are crucial to understand. One believes that, the facts can be gathered, measured. The other simply believes. Now the the standpoint of evolution camp still carry's more credibility given the "time" that we have been able to measure/gather this data. It has only happened in a few hundred years since the Darwinian evolution as an idea was coined and a beautiful book written on it. True leaps are only beginning to happen now that we can peer further into space, understand a bit more on where we are, understand processes here on earth, the human genome being decoded and all that info being made available for further research.

Man has in this short period of time been able to clone animals, still taboo to clone a human being but, soon, such qualms will be a thing of the past. I personally read and just wonder what the world will be like in 100 years time... will we still have this separate line of thinking? will both still be valid, or will humans adopt a different way of thinking?

 

[YeshuaHaMelech]

I feel a little tired friend,
I'll see you tomorrow. I'm little tired for now.
Thanks for good points and good night!

 

[SHERRIF ARPAIO]

lets discuss answer to these three questions:
1. What is the universe?
2. What composes (makes) the universe?
3. What is the shape of the universe?

Hapo umenena, manake nimeangalia documentary hii ya "Journey Towards the Edge of the Earth" kule kwenya channel ya Nat. Geo...du!
Kumbe kuna nyota na sayari nyingi huko juu zaidi ya mchanga wooote uliopo duniani!!

 

[Mtazamaji]

The distinctions between the two camps are crucial to understand. One believes that, the facts can be gathered, measured. ............

No even this camp some time use a word "belief". When they tell us the composition of the sun Its not a fact nor have they been able to gather a single particle from the sun. So some time the setence "it is believed"............ is used to keep things
presentable

 

[VoiceOfReason]

I'm struggling to understand the infinite size! Anyway, I still wonder what universe really is in scientific perspective. We know house is made of bricks, I wonder what this so called universe is made of :twitch:

Dah Imebidi nicheke hapa kwenye bold!

Okay lets me concetrate on the question about the shape and this is from my own common sense and logic, lets set aside any scientific issues and what we know (actually dont know).., first of all from the actual word Universe i.e. composition of everything (of what we know about which is planets, galaxy, stars e.t.c) now picture this.. lets say what we know is a football inside a football pitch which is inside a football ground, now that football must be within something which is a pitch, the pitch must be inside something which is the football building, the building must be inside something which is the space and land around it, that land is inside the country e.t.c what am trying to say whatever we know about must be inside a container and the container must be inside another container cause it can not be nowhere... hence thats where logic tells me the size must be infinity and I dont think infinity has got a shape...

 

[Mtazamaji]

The Universe is everything planets, stars, energy space everything....

Everything makes the universe what we know and what we dont know, (all physical matter and energy)

So could the first and the last(GOD) be included as one of the those things we dont know but is part of the universe ?

 

[VoiceOfReason]

So could the first and the last(GOD) be included as one of the those things we dont know but is part of the universe ?

If we are talking about Faith..., then yes. But there are people of no faith, therefore we can say there are supernatural powers which we have no way of finding out or proving....,

What is being done now is playing up with theories with lots of assumptions.