Chiluba and Kagame dancing on the mass graves of Angolans!

[Nguruvi3]

Nguruvi3,Joka kuu

Was there PK hands on Sankara?

au vibaraka wa France walitafuta pa kujivulia lawama?

Sidhani kuwa kulikuwa na uhusiano wowote na sual hilo.
Hakuna mahali penye mkono wa PK nadhani hilo ni la west Africa kama lilivyo.

 

[Nguruvi3]

jokaKuu, Nguruvi3, Bornagain,
Nilisema nitarudi. Nimesoma thread zozote sijaona chochote cha kunishtua au kunishangaza. Kama alivyosema jokaKuu, hata sisi tulimsaidia Savimbi kabla hatujagundua kwamba alitumika na CIA. Nakumbuka mwaka 1974 pale Dar airport I saw this ugliest man God ever created. Baadaye nikagundua it was Savimbi. Sasa turudi kwa Kagame, kuna kitu kinaitwa national interest. Kama Kagame alimuunga mkono Savimbi wakati akiwa vice president, I do not see any big deal there. That is not dancing on Angola's graves. Savimbi alitumia Zambia kuingiza silaha zake hata wakati wa Kenneth Kaunda na sote tulijua hili ingawa Kaunda alikuwa kiongozi katika frontline states. Does make that Kaunda a dancer on Angola's graves? Tuwashukuru Wacuba kwa msaada wao katika ukombozi wa Afrika, hasa katika yale mapigano muhimu ya Cuito Cuanavale ambako jeshi la Makaburu lilirudishwa nyuma na ukawa mwanzo wa kusambaratika kwa nguzo ya Makaburu kusini mwa Afrika. All said, Kagame may not be a saint, no politician is, and Kagame is still my hero.

Nadhani tunaelewa vibaya harakati za kuikomboa Angola.
Wakati vyama vinapigana dhidi ya Mreno,Tanzania iliunga mkono vyama vyote MPLA na UNITA.

Katika nyakati fulani za mapambano Tanzania ikatangaza kukiunga na mkono MPLA kwa dhati. Baada ya hapo nchi zingine zikafuata kuitambua MPLA na Luanda ilipoangauka Tanzania na frontline states nyingi zilikuwa nyuma ya MPLA.

Hilo halikuwa na maana ya kuwatenga UNITA. Kilichofanyika ilikuwa kuandaa mazingira ya kushiriki katika siasa za nchi kwa pamoja. Ni baada ya hapo UNITA wakaonekana kuanza uasi.

Jitihada za kuwasuluhusisha kama ilivyokuwa kwa ZANU-PF na ZAP ya mkomo zilifanyka.

Kilichobainika ni kuwa Savimbi alikuwa anapata misaada kutoa SA na Magahribi.
Na ndio maana muda wote wa mapambano Kabinda ilikuwa chini ya Savimbi.

Kwahiyo ni kweli Tanzania iliunga mkono UNITA katika hatua za awali za kujikomboa,na baada ya kudhihiri kuwa UNITA ni traitors nchi za frontline state zilianza kumtenga.

Hili ni tofauti na wakati wa Chiluba ambapo ni chini ya miaka 25 iliyopita na wakati huo Savimbi anajulikana ulimwenguni kote kama muasi na muaji mkubwa. Ni wakati huo ambapo Kagame (naye akitokea katika genocide) aliungana na Chiluba kwa mujibu wa Sata kumsaidia Savimbi.

Ukiangalia muda Tanzania ilipokuwa na Savimbi ambao ulikuwa wa Uhuru miaka ya 1975. Kwahiyo kulikuwa na miaka zaidi ya 20 ambayo Savimbi alikuwa revealed.

Ni ukosefu wa maadili na uroho na kiu ya kunywa damu aliyo nayo Kagame vilivyomsukuma kwenda kumsaidia Savimbi wakati dunia ikijua huyo alikuwa muumiani.

Hapo Kagame anapaswa kupewa excuse? Kumbuka wakati wa kupigania uhuru wa Angola Kagame was a street boy, later on hawezi kutoa excuse kwa kujilinganisha na Tanzania iliyounga mkono kwa dhati vyama hivyo vya ukombozi,

 

[JokaKuu]

Jasusi, Nguruvi3,

..how credible is Richard Mgamba??

..wasnt Tanzania supporting Rwanda and Uganda when they invaded DRC in 1998?

..even South Africa was not supporting SADC combat mission that comprised of Zimbabwe, Angola, and Namibia.

..now, what has changed since around 2001 to the point that Tz and SA sasa wamekuwa maadui wa Rwanda ktk ardhi ya Congo??

..kuhusu madai ya Richard Mgamba na Rwanda, SG Ban Ki Moon amesema wapeleke ushahidi kuthibitisha wanachodai.

 

[JokaKuu]

Don't link Kagame with UNITA,mbona he was cleared by UN loooong time ago na hakuna ushahidi wowote hiyo link iliwahi kutokea,lakini news kama hizi we know makes u guys feel good
Rwanda: UN Strikes Kagame Off Unita Link

16 March 2000



London, Rwandese Vice — President Paul Kagame's name has been withdrawn from the list of leaders implicated by United Nations investigators for busting the sanctions imposed on the rebel UNITA of Angola.
An early version of the sanctions committee's report leaked at the weekend named President Omar Bongo of Gabon and Kagame as implicated in illegal traffic with Unita, but the two names have been withdrawn from the final report.

..hiyo ni ya 2000.

..ninayosoma mimi ni ripoti ya 2003.

..hivi unafikiri ikianzishwa mahakama ya genocide ya Congo unafikiri Paul Kagame,James Kabarebe, Kayumba Nyamwasa, Laurent Nkunda,..watasalimika??

 

[Jasusi]

Jasusi, Nguruvi3,

..how credible is Richard Mgamba??

..wasnt Tanzania supporting Rwanda and Uganda when they invaded DRC in 1998?

..even South Africa was not supporting SADC combat mission that comprised of Zimbabwe, Angola, and Namibia.

..now, what has changed since around 2001 to the point that Tz and SA sasa wamekuwa maadui wa Rwanda ktk ardhi ya Congo??

..kuhusu madai ya Richard Mgamba na Rwanda, SG Ban Ki Moon amesema wapeleke ushahidi kuthibitisha wanachodai.

jokaKuu,
'I do not think Tanzania supported Rwanda and Uganda in 1998. Sana sana walikuwa neutral. Richard Mgamba has covered the eastern Congo issue and had a chance to interview the rebel leader of M23. So I trust him.

 

[JokaKuu]

Jasusi,

..during the war in DRC, Ugandas heavy weapons were being transported thru' Dsm port.

..do you consider that being neutral when it was known that those weapons were going to be used against Congo and her SADC allies?

 

[Jasusi]

Jasusi,

..during the war in DRC, Ugandas heavy weapons were being transported thru' Dsm port.

..do you consider that being neutral when it was known that those weapons were going to be used against Congo and her SADC allies?

jokaKuu,
Kama bidhaa zao kwa kawaida zinapitia bandari yetu hatukuwa na sababu ya kuwazuia wasipitishe silaha zao.

 

[JokaKuu]

jokaKuu,
Kama bidhaa zao kwa kawaida zinapitia bandari yetu hatukuwa na sababu ya kuwazuia wasipitishe silaha zao.

..lakini Congo ni mwanachama mwenzetu wa SADC.

..sasa huoni hapo tumekwenda kinyume na mkataba wa ulinzi wa SADC??

..zaidi kama tulikuwa tunapinga vita hiyo, kwanini basi tuliendelea kusafirisha silaha zilizokuwa zinakwenda kuchochea vita??

..binafsi sidhani kama Mwalimu Nyerere angekuwa madarakani angefanya vile alivyofanya Raisi Mkapa??

 

[JokaKuu]

Jasusi,

..I think we miscalculated big time.

..sisi wenyewe tulichochea vita ile kwa kusafirisha silaha za Uganda na Rwanda.

..sasa hivi tumegeuka tunapeleka majeshi kulinda amani tuliyoshiriki kuivuruga.

cc: Nguruvi3, Ninaweza, Geza Ulole

 

[Nguruvi3]

Jasusi,

..I think we miscalculated big time.

..sisi wenyewe tulichochea vita ile kwa kusafirisha silaha za Uganda na Rwanda.

..sasa hivi tumegeuka tunapeleka majeshi kulinda amani tuliyoshiriki kuivuruga.

cc: Nguruvi3, Ninaweza, Geza Ulole

JokaKuu, nadhani kupitisha silaha ilikuwa sehemu ya biashara za kawaida.
Leo Zambia wanaotumia bandari yetu wakiwa na shehena yao ya mizigo, je, tunapaswa kukataa isipitie bandari ya Dar es Salaam. Kuna mkataba wa aina hiyo kweli.

Rwanda na Uganda bado walikuwa na uwezo wa kutumia bandari ya mombasa.

Labda hapa nitoe mfano ambao sina hakika ni sawa na hali iliyokuwepo.
Mamlaka za leseni zina kazi ya kutoa leseni kama ya udereva. Hiyo haina maana dereva huyo atakapoitumia vibaya na kusababisha maafa asiadhibiwe kwasababu tu ni mamlaka hizo hizo za serikali zilitoa leseni.

Najaribu kufikiria scenario ambayo Egypt itakataa kupitisha silaha za Tanzania Suez Canal.
Au iruhusu silaha hizo halafu zikifika Tanzania zitumike vibaya na Egypt ilaumiwe.

 

[Nguruvi3]

jokaKuu,
Here is another food for thought. This is a quote from a fellow journalist Richard Mgamba:

FDLR and M23 are all rebels causing instability in DRC. While FDLR is dominated by Hutus, the M23 is group formed by Congolese Tutsi. There are credible evidence that the Congolese national army(FARDC), which is backed by UN and SADC forces, has joined forces with FDLR to fight M23. The UN monitoring group in their interim report released this month confirmed beyond reasonable doubt that FDLR and Congolese national army are partners.


Now if FDLR's main mission is to overthrow the Rwandese regime, and here we see it forming alliance with Congolese army, then what will happen? How can SADC and UN back the army that is collaborating with rebels?

I thought both FDLR and M23 are rebels who should be wiped out, but it seemed they are only called rebels when their origin is Tutsi and backed by Rwanda. But if they are backed with Congolese national army and their origin is Hutus, they suddenly become good boys or partners. This is a mess in the making.

Jasusi tunapaswa pia kuelewa motive za makundi haya mawili halafu tuone nani ni 'less evil'.

M23 hawapigani na FDLR bali wanataka eneo lile liwe nje ya DRC. Kama utakumbuka miezi 6 iliyopita M23 walitoa wito iwepo kura ya maoni ya kujitenga kutoka DRC.

Kagame anaunga mkono suala hilo kwa kuwapa silaha na logistic zote,kuwa wao wamege sehemu ya nchi jirani kwasababu tu wana silaha.

Hii ina set bad precedent katika eneo letu. Baada ya kuitenga Kivu, kitakachofuata ni kuchochoea kigoma nayo ijitenge ili Watusi waendelee kuwa na nchi kubwa kama ilivyobuniwa na kile kilichoitwa Bahima empire kama nipo sahihi.

FDLR wanapigana kama rebels wa Rwanda kutokea DRC. Endapo M23 wasingejihusisha na mapambano ndani ya DRC ingekuwa jambo rahisi ku deal na Intarahamwe. Unfortunate Kagame ana comPlicate the situation.

Sasa wapi pa kuanzia ku-solve equation, kwanza ni kuhangaika na M23 kuwaponda na kumdhibiti Kagame.
Then kutakuwa na sababu za kuiangalia FDLR.

Kuhusu FDLR kuungana na majeshi ya DRC nadhani hiyo ni mbinu ya self defense kwasababu FDLR hawana madai ya kuigawa DRC kama ilivyo kwa M23.

 

[Koba]

..hiyo ni ya 2000.

..ninayosoma mimi ni ripoti ya 2003.

..hivi unafikiri ikianzishwa mahakama ya genocide ya Congo unafikiri Paul Kagame,James Kabarebe, Kayumba Nyamwasa, Laurent Nkunda,..watasalimika??

2003 report by who? weka hapa tuone.

 

[Koba]

..lakini Congo ni mwanachama mwenzetu wa SADC.

..sasa huoni hapo tumekwenda kinyume na mkataba wa ulinzi wa SADC??

..zaidi kama tulikuwa tunapinga vita hiyo, kwanini basi tuliendelea kusafirisha silaha zilizokuwa zinakwenda kuchochea vita??

..binafsi sidhani kama Mwalimu Nyerere angekuwa madarakani angefanya vile alivyofanya Raisi Mkapa??

Nyere was a big time supporter of RPF and Kagame,he knew who was the problem and he was right!!!

 

[Koba]

Jasusi tunapaswa pia kuelewa motive za makundi haya mawili halafu tuone nani ni 'less evil'.

Kagame anaunga mkono suala hilo kwa kuwapa silaha na logistic zote,kuwa wao wamege sehemu ya nchi jirani kwasababu tu wana silaha.

Hii ina set bad precedent katika eneo letu. Baada ya kuitenga Kivu, kitakachofuata ni kuchochoea kigoma nayo ijitenge ili Watusi waendelee kuwa na nchi kubwa kama ilivyobuniwa na kile kilichoitwa Bahima empire kama nipo sahihi.

.

Shida yako yote ndio hiyo hapo(highlighted),mkiacha hizo conspiracy labda ndio mtaweza kufikiria vizuri lakini for now hii debate yote ni useless kama mna akili na mnaamini BS za Hima empire!!

 

[Nguruvi3]

Shida yako yote ndio hiyo hapo(highlighted),mkiacha hizo conspiracy labda ndio mtaweza kufikiria vizuri lakini for now hii debate yote ni useless kama mna akili na mnaamini BS za Hima empire!!

We need your argument please.

 

[Ninaweza]

Kabaridi,

..Tanzania used to support Savimbi, but we cut our ties with him once he started receiving military assistance from Apartheid South Africa. Zambia did the same too.

..Kwasababu western powers hawakutaka kukata mahusiano yao na South Africa basi freedom fighter in Southern Africa were left with no choice but to accept military assistance from Soviet Union, and adopt marxist or socialist ideologies.

NB:

..Lets stick to the issue on the table.

1.Kagame provided covert assistance to Jonas Savimbi and Unita, in violation of OAU resolution which declared Savimbi a war criminal.

2.Paul Kagame has been sponsoring rebel groups in RDC. Those rebels have been found to have committed violent crimes against the innocent ppl of Congo, including women and children. It is estimated that 3 million Congolese have lost their lives because of the war imposed on them by Paul Kagame and the rebel groups he supports.

3. From # 1 and # 2 would it be wrong to catergorise what has happened in DRC as GENOCIDE??

4. From # 3, does Paul Kagame promote genocidal ideology??

cc: Nguruvi3, RUTAJUMBUKIRWA, Koba, Bukyanagandi, Geza Ulole, Ninaweza

ndugu, Kagame aache kutumia genocide kama kichaka cha kuficha na kuhalalisha maovu yake!, amani anayodai kairejesha Rwanda kwanini hawatakii wakongo wawe nayo?. Once a leper......................

 

[Ninaweza]

Jasusi,

..during the war in DRC, Ugandas heavy weapons were being transported thru' Dsm port.

..do you consider that being neutral when it was known that those weapons were going to be used against Congo and her SADC allies?

Hizo zilitumika dhidi ya Joseph KONY na si Zaire

 

[Ninaweza]

jokaKuu,
Kama bidhaa zao kwa kawaida zinapitia bandari yetu hatukuwa na sababu ya kuwazuia wasipitishe silaha zao.

mkulu silaha hizo zilitumika dhidi ya Joseph Kony, na ilikuwa kabla ya 1998.

 

[Ninaweza]

Jasusi,

..I think we miscalculated big time.

..sisi wenyewe tulichochea vita ile kwa kusafirisha silaha za Uganda na Rwanda.

..sasa hivi tumegeuka tunapeleka majeshi kulinda amani tuliyoshiriki kuivuruga.

cc: Nguruvi3, Ninaweza, Geza Ulole

mimi naona ktk msingi huo Tz haina makosa, kwani silaha hizo kupitia dar port to Ug. zilihujumu lord resistant army. labda kosa letu linakuja kwa kuwaanda akina kabila (jr & snr) kwa vile kinacho tokea drc ni mwendelezo wa hizo movement.

 

[masopakyindi]

Unita ilizimwa na mamluki wa MPLA wakisaidiwa vifaa kutoka China na Russia..

Wrong, Savimbi aliumbuliea na dimu yake ya sattellite ambapo CIA iliweza kumpin point na kuwaarifu serikali ya Angola alipo.
Jeshi la Angola likammaliza.