Uraia Pacha Tanzania: Siasa ya Bernard Membe na hatma yake

[Ubumuntu]

Right. Let's keep the debate going then.

Others have argued that dual citizenship is embodied in the concept of Pan-Africanism, which promotes the cooperation among and integration of the African people. Pan-African leader Marcus Garvey notably said: "Africa for the Africans – those at home and those abroad." Kama mtu anaunga mkono Pan-Africanism ataji-contradict kama hataunga mkono duo citizenship.

Okay.

Let me continue with the debate.

Kwanza kabisa, "who are the others?"

Pili, icon wa Pan-Africanism kama Mwalimu hakuwahi kusikika wakiunga mkono dual citizenship, tena alipinga hilo suala (soma Chapter 4 - "Continental Shift: Civilization, Racial Thought and the Intellectual Foundations of an African Nationalism" ya kitabu cha James Brennan (2012) "Taifa: Making Nation and Race in Urban Tanzania"). Sasa sijui hapo utasema Mwalimu alikuwa akijicontradict katika kuwa muumini mkubwa wa Pan-Africanism?

Tatu, vipi kuhusu "Back-to-Africa-Movement", ambapo suala la umoja wa watu weusi nalo lilikuwa ni msingi wa movement hiyo. Ambapo watu kama kina Garvey na Malik El-Shabazz (waamini wakubwa wa Pan-Africanism) wali-advocate suala la mtu mweusi kurudi katika nchi zao za asili. Hapa msisitizo ulikuwa katika kurudi na kuweka makazi ya kudumu katika kuendeleza maeneo yao ya asili (ancentral lands). Ingawa pia masuala la kukimbia uonevu na kudharauliwa katika nchi za kigeni nayo yalikuwa sababu ya hiyo movement. Hawaku-advocate watu weusi wawe na uraia katika nchi za kigeni na nchi zao za asili; wali advocate for African Redemption kwa kupitia kwa mikono ya waafrika waliokuwa mataifa ya nje kurudi kwao, na kwa wageni kuliacha bara la Afrika na watu wake, katika mikono ya waafrika.

Sasa sielewi ni vipi hiyo quotation ya Garvey unataka kuiunganisha na dual citizenship tu bila kuangalia upande wa pili. Katika ideology ya African Redemption, licha ya msisitizo mkuu kuwa katika "Back to Africa" movement, pia msisitizo mwingine ulilenga katika kuhakikisha watu wenye African ancestry popote walipo duniani wanashiriki kikamilifu katika kuhakikisha bara la Afrika linakombolewa kutoka kwenye makucha ya wakoloni na umaskini wa watu wake.
Hapa naona unataka kulazimisha kuunganisha mambo katika kuona hoja ya dual citizenship inapata legitimacy kupitia mgongo wa Pan-Africanism.

Lakini kwangu mimi naliangalia suala zima la dual citizenship from a moral point of view. Whether kuna faida za kiuchumi nor not, sioni why it should be immoral kuwa na dual citizenship. Ukiangalia dual citizenship debate focuses on first generation immigrants who still have direct ties to their countries of birth. Lakini tukiangalia hili suala kwa mapana zaidi kuna aina mbili za African Diaspora. Kundi la kwanza linahusu wale waliochukuliwa involuntary kutoka Afrika in the slave trade aka historic African Diaspora. Kundi la pili linahusu wale waliondoka Afrika voluntarily to emigrate elsewhere in the world: the modern-day African Diaspora.

Chifu unasahau kuna theory ya moral relativism - kwamba hakuna binadamu ambaye kimsingi yupo sahihi au hayuko sahihi katika suala fulani (nobody is objectively right or wrong). Kwamba morality is relative to individuals; unachokiona sahihi wewe, kwangu kinaweza kisiwe sahihi. Mfano watu wa LGBT wao kwao kuwa mashoga, wasagaji na kuoana watu wenye jinsia moja ni sahihi kabisa. Lakini kwa jumuiya za wapinga LGBT, hayo masuala ni immoral.
Moral relativists wanasema kwamba hakuna "ultimate standard of good or evil, so every judgment about right and wrong is purely a product of a person's preferences and environment. There is no ultimate standard of morality, according to moral relativism, and no statement or position can be considered absolutely "right or wrong," "best or worst". (Source: Moral Relativism).

Hivyo suala la dual citizenship likijadiliwa katika misingi ya what is moral and what is immoral, halitafikia tamati na kupata ufumbuzi. Ningeshauri, ni heri tujadili katika misingi mingine (uchumi, ukuaji na usambazaji wa ujuzi na utaalamu, transfer of technology n.k.) lakini si hili la morality na immorality.

Wasalaam.

 

[Ubumuntu]

Umuhimu wa diaspora hupo kwenye mipango ya maendeleo ya muda mrefu na kwenye kuleta changamoto za mbele. Kwa faida yako wengi sana wenye kazi za maana hawaishi kwa visa, ni wale wenye mapepa mzungu achezei talent akijua hunafaida kwake wewe unakula tu pepa no matter what. Amini usiamini kuna wapopo huwa wanagombewa na vyuo vya marekani na vya uingereza especially kwenye vyuo ambavyo vipo mbele kwenye science reseaches, sasa hutegemei huyu mtu hawe na direct impact in the third world. Hila in the long run you know he can teach many to acquire his/her level of thinking and in return you can invest on researches because you have vast human capital ready for those challenges. Na hawa watu hawatokuja bila ya incentive's from government programmes.

Vyema. Sasa mimi nimewaomba mje na takwimu sahihi ya kuonyesha ni watanzania wangapi wenye hizo kazi za maana, na wenye talent hizo, ambazo wazungu wanazigombania. Hawa wakijulikana inakuwa rahisi sana kunogesha mjadala wa kufahamu ni kiasi gani na kwa namna gani watanzania hao watakuwa na manufaa kwa taifa.

Ni vyema pia kuja na takwimu za watanzania walio kwenye vyuo vikuu vya Ulaya na Marekani, wanaogombaniwa kwa ujuzi na weledi wao. Wakifahamika na kuweza kuonyesha ni kwa kiasi na namna gani wanaweza kutumia ujuzi na weledi wao katika kusongesha gurudumu la maendeleo la Tanzania, hakika hawawezi kuachwa wasiwe na impact kwa taifa.

Back up ya takwimu za uhakika, zitaweza kuipa hoja hiyo uzito. Bila hivyo yanakuwa ni makelele tu yasiyo na msingi wowote.

Na Tanzania bado haipo sophisticated ya kuwatambua hawa kwa sababu kama uingireza inakubali huwe na passport mbili people see no point even to care what the current administration is thinking wao sanasana passport za UK wanazitia kwenye mikoba wakija likizo. Mkianza tu kuchapana na fujo za udini or whatever the heck the social think it is necessary kuchapana, hiwapo SM whatever (meli zao za vita uingereza wanavyoziita)ikija jamaa wanatoa nyekundu zao hao baruti wanakimbizwa kama wazungu jamaa hawabagui so long unagamba jekundu, kama bado ukuchukua kazi kwako.

Naamini fikra hizo juu ni sehemu ya kunogesha tu mjadala. Sitaki kuamini kama unafikra na imani kama hizo ulizoandika.

Point hapo ni kwamba dual citizenship ni kwa faida ya Tanzania only to encourage those with talent to return and build a nation na michango yao inahitajika kwakuwa wanaweza reason tofauti through developed first world experiences. Lakini hawa hakina yakhe believe me they don't care at all, and they are not patriots in most cases what matters ii's their families and self progress solely.

Great. However, a presence of data to back up the argument is pivotal. How many Tanzanians have exceptional talents, the kind of talents that would be useful in directing the country into a prosperous path.

you have to think on this issues in terms of social benefits kuliko kujiami.

Yes I do think on the issues. However, most of the issues that you have brought up lack back up evidence and data.

Chifu, wapi nimejihami?! Wanaotetea hoja ndiyo wanajihami kwa kuja na maelezo 'matamu' yasiyo na misingi.

 

[Makucha]

Gad ONEYA asks when it came down to "allegiance" (i.e. during war), to whom will the person with multiple uraia be pledged? This applies to solders. For information, any person with dual citizen does not qualify to become a solder and therefore the worry is not applicable here. On the other hand same worry should apply to foreigners acquiring Tz citizenship which we already provide and these are worse to trust than a Tanzanian with dual citizenship. Ask the Americans who provide dual citizenship and have been fighting and the loyalty is yet to worry anyone there. Please let us not be unreasonably jealous. If not you today, your child and close relative may need it tomorrow.

 

[EMT]

Kwanza kabisa, "who are the others?"

lol. Ulitaka niweke na footnotes kabisa? Moja ya watu ambao wana-link dual citizenship na Pan-Africanism ni Gregory Simpkins: Africa Rising 21st Century: The Reality of Dual Citizenship

Pili, icon wa Pan-Africanism kama Mwalimu hakuwahi kusikika wakiunga mkono dual citizenship, tena alipinga hilo suala (soma Chapter 4 - "Continental Shift: Civilization, Racial Thought and the Intellectual Foundations of an African Nationalism" ya kitabu cha James Brennan (2012) "Taifa: Making Nation and Race in Urban Tanzania"). Sasa sijui hapo utasema Mwalimu alikuwa akijicontradict katika kuwa muumini mkubwa wa Pan-Africanism?

Sina uhakika kama Nyerere alikataa uraia wa nchi mbili. Hata kama alipinga kuna instances ambazo anawezakuwa alijicontradict. Maandishi yanasema kuwa, wakati akiwa Waziri Mkuu wa Tanganyika, serikali yake ilileta mswada wa uraia bungeni ya kuwapa uraia wakazi wote wa Tanganyika bila kujali rangi au asili ya mtu, ili mradi tuu awe amezaliwa Tanganyika au mmoja wa wazazi wake awe amezaliwa Tanganyika.

Lakini wabunge wengi waliupinga mswada huo wakidai uraia uzingatie zaidi race ya mtu. Nyerere hakufurahishwa na hilo na akatishia kujiuzulu na kurejea kijijini. Alisema kuwa "this Government has rejected, and rejected completely, any ideas that citizenship with the duties and the rights of citizenship of this country, are going to be based on anything except loyalty to this country…" (Nyerere 1961, 1966:128-9). Nasubiri swali ambalo utauliza juu ya hii quotation.

Kwa mujibu wa extract kutoka Raia Mwema, "Muswada huo ulipita kwa upinzani mkali wa wabunge na wananchi, waliotaka uraia uwe kwa Waafrika tu ambao ndio wenye nchi na wenye kustahili kufaidi matunda ya uhuru.

Kwa kukerwa na sheria hiyo, TANU iliitisha Mkutano Mkuu, Januari 16, 1962 ambapo wajumbe walimshambulia na kumlaumu Nyerere, wakishinikiza kuona maendeleo ya haraka, kuanzishwa kwa Jamhuri ya Tanganyika, kufutwa kwa viti 20 maalumu kwa weupe Bungeni (minority races) wenye uraia wa nchi mbili, na kutoa madaraka kwa Waafrika katika utumishi wa umma na vyama vya Ushirika…….

Kwa kutetea msimamo wake, na hasa kutokana na kile kilichoitwa "kukosa ujasiri wa kuwatimua Waingereza kwa kasi iliyotakikana", ilibidi Mwalimu aachie ngazi na kuwaachia Rashid Kawawa na Oscar Kambona kuwaondoa Wazungu [wenye urai wa nchi mbili] kwenye vyeo walivyokuwa wakishikilia." Raia Mwema - Uraia wa nchi mbili utaangamiza nchi, uzalendo

Swali linakuja kama Nyerere alikuwa anapinga uraia wa nchi mbili, si angefuta hivyo viti 20 maalumu kwa weupe bungeni (minority races) waliokuwa na uraia wa nchi mbili? Kwa nini Nyerere aliamua kuachia ngazi na kuwaachia akina Kawawa na Kambona kuwaondoa hao Wazungu wenye uraia wa nchi mbili kwenye vyeo walivyokuwa wakishikilia?

Let's assume kuwa Nyerere alikuwa anapinga uraia wa nchi mbili. Unadhani kama angekuwa hai bado angeendelea na msimamo huo na kwa nini? Katika kitabu chake cha "Tumetoka Wapi, Tuko Wapi na Tunakwenda Wapi' uk 32 Mwalimu aliongelea suala la mgombea binafsi na kusema, "Hata hivyo, mimi nadhani sheria imekosea kuzuia wagombea binafsi. Hili jambo limekosewa ni la msingi. Ndiyo maana napenda kulisema ni la msingi, linahusu haki yangu na yako ya kupiga kura na kupigiwa kura. Hii ni haki ya uraia. Kuomba upigiwe kura pia ni haki ya uraia. Ni haki yako."

Sina maana kuwa ni haki ya Mtanzania kuwa na uraia wa nchi mbili. Bali najaribu tuu kuonyesha jinsi Mwalimu alivyoanza kubadili misimamo yake kwenye masuala muhimu hasa baada ya kuondoka madarakani. Who knows, maybe angebadilisha pia msimamo wake kwenye suala la uraia pia?

Tatu, vipi kuhusu "Back-to-Africa-Movement", ambapo suala la umoja wa watu weusi nalo lilikuwa ni msingi wa movement hiyo. Ambapo watu kama kina Garvey na Malik El-Shabazz (waamini wakubwa wa Pan-Africanism) wali-advocate suala la mtu mweusi kurudi katika nchi zao za asili. Hapa msisitizo ulikuwa katika kurudi na kuweka makazi ya kudumu katika kuendeleza maeneo yao ya asili (ancentral lands). Ingawa pia masuala la kukimbia uonevu na kudharauliwa katika nchi za kigeni nayo yalikuwa sababu ya hiyo movement. Hawaku-advocate watu weusi wawe na uraia katika nchi za kigeni na nchi zao za asili; wali advocate for African Redemption kwa kupitia kwa mikono ya waafrika waliokuwa mataifa ya nje kurudi kwao, na kwa wageni kuliacha bara la Afrika na watu wake, katika mikono ya waafrika.

Garvey alikuwa anasema "A strong man is strong everywhere" na kuwa kama Afrika ikiwa imara basi descendants wake wakiwemo na wale walio-emigrate voluntarily (bila kulazimishwa), wangefaidika pia na uimara wa Afrika mpya. Malcolm X nae alisema kuwa wakati China ilipokuwa imara Wachina waliokuwa wanaishi Marekani walijikuta wanakuwa transformed kutoka "objects" kuwa "modern minority".

Inawezekana suala hapa wala siyo rangi, bali umaskini au perception ya umaskini ndiyo unaotufanya tudharauliwe na race nyingine. Kuwahamisha watu weusi wote na kuwaleta Africa, haina maana kuwa dharau itaisha unless tuondokane na umaskini, etc unatukabili.

Sasa sielewi ni vipi hiyo quotation ya Garvey unataka kuiunganisha na dual citizenship tu bila kuangalia upande wa pili. Katika ideology ya African Redemption, licha ya msisitizo mkuu kuwa katika "Back to Africa" movement, pia msisitizo mwingine ulilenga katika kuhakikisha watu wenye African ancestry popote walipo duniani wanashiriki kikamilifu katika kuhakikisha bara la Afrika linakombolewa kutoka kwenye makucha ya wakoloni na umaskini wa watu wake.
Hapa naona unataka kulazimisha kuunganisha mambo katika kuona hoja ya dual citizenship inapata legitimacy kupitia mgongo wa Pan-Africanism.

Naona kama vile "Back to Africa" movement ilikuwa ime-base zaidi kwenye race. Alikuwa anasema "race first". Hii ilifanya Pan Africanism kabla ya uhuru ihusishwe zaidi na kuunganisha race ya watu weusi. Lakini baada ya nchi za Kiafrika kuanza kupata uhuru, pioneers wengi wa Pan Africanism wali-mix race na movement ya kuwa na the United States of Africa. Lakini nafikiri kwa Nyerere, Pan-Africanism ilikuwa na maana ya self-determination katika nyanja zote za maendeleo. That Africans should be able to determine themselves whenever they are.

Huwa najiuliza kama Garvey angekuwa hai leo bado angeunga mkono "Back to Africa" movement? After all yeye mwenyewe alihamia London permanently na kufia huko. Kwa nini asinge-stick na "Back-to-Africa-Movement" na kubakia Jamaica baada ya kuwa deported from the United States?

Pia sometimes, maneno yake either huwa yanaji-contradict or yanakuwa interpreted vibaya. Ndiyo, maana bado nashindwa kukubaliana kwa asilimia 100 na hawa wanaunga mkono duo nationality on the basis of Pan Africanism. Nafikiri labda argument ya Garvey ingekuwa kwamba kama diaspora ingesaidia kuikomboa Afrika from alien domination, basi ingenufaika pia na faida ya kuwa na Afrika imara.

Chifu unasahau kuna theory ya moral relativism - kwamba hakuna binadamu ambaye kimsingi yupo sahihi au hayuko sahihi katika suala fulani (nobody is objectively right or wrong). Kwamba morality is relative to individuals; unachokiona sahihi wewe, kwangu kinaweza kisiwe sahihi. Mfano watu wa LGBT wao kwao kuwa mashoga, wasagaji na kuoana watu wenye jinsia moja ni sahihi kabisa. Lakini kwa jumuiya za wapinga LGBT, hayo masuala ni immoral.
Moral relativists wanasema kwamba hakuna "ultimate standard of good or evil, so every judgment about right and wrong is purely a product of a person's preferences and environment. There is no ultimate standard of morality, according to moral relativism, and no statement or position can be considered absolutely "right or wrong," "best or worst". (Source: Moral Relativism).

Hivyo suala la dual citizenship likijadiliwa katika misingi ya what is moral and what is immoral, halitafikia tamati na kupata ufumbuzi. Ningeshauri, ni heri tujadili katika misingi mingine (uchumi, ukuaji na usambazaji wa ujuzi na utaalamu, transfer of technology n.k.) lakini si hili la morality na immorality.

Wasalaam.

Of course, what is moral may be relative to individuals. Kuna kabila moja Afrika ambalo linaamini kwenye arranged marriage na kila wakati wa mavuno lazima kuwe na dansi. Kwenye hii dansi kama umeoa, mke wako anaweza kumchangua mwanaume mwingine mbele yako for a one night stand, to fulfill her lust for that man au hata kufunga nae ndoa. Kwenye hili kabila, it is a moral obligation to do this, imekubaliwa among the people in the tribe including wanaume walioa na hii practice imekuwa passed on kutoka generatiom moja kwenda nyingine kwa miaka na miaka.

Lakini even moral relativism inaweza kupingwa na wale wanaomini kwenye universality ya morality. Ni sawa na wale wanaosema kuwa human rights are universal wakati wapo wengine wanaosema kuwa they are cultural relative. It could go either way depending on the individual.

Hata hivyo, there may be situations ambapo morality inaweza kuwa regarded as universal, rather than relative, regardless of how the law says. Kwa mfano, sheria inasema tuendeshe upande wa kushoto wa barabara. Wakati A anaendesha mara akatokozea B barabarani (upande anaondeshea). Badala ya kumgonga, A akamkwepa B kwa kwenda upande wa kulia mwa barabara (kulikuwa hakuna gari upande huo).

Traffic akamwona A anaendesha upande wa kulia na kumkamata na kumfikisha mahakamani kwa kuendesha gari upande wa kulia mwa barabara kinyume na sheria. Ukiwa kama hakimu utamhukumu kwa mujibu wa sheria au you will think that there was a moral excuse for A to drive on the right side of the road on that particular time? If not, universally, unadhani wananchi wote Tanzania wangemhukumu A kwa kuvunja sheria?

I am not suggesting that duo citizenship is universally acceptable in Tanzania. Rather, morality many not necessarily be relative. I still think that that morality plays a significant role kwenye suala zima la duo citizenship. In fact, sheria nyingi huwa zinatungwa based on what people perceive to be a right or wrong thing to do. Na kwa nchi za wenzetu morality inaplay an important part. Kwa mfano, wanaona it is a right thing for the first to be served first wakati kwetu ni sawa kabisa kwa mtu aliyekuja saa sita mchana kuwa served kabla ya yule aliyekuja saa mbili asubuhi simply because hakuna sheria inayozua hilo.

Yes, debate ya duo citizenship must take into account economic, political, etc, benefits to Tanzania and Tanzanians. Lakini pia dual citizenship has a moral dimension which should not be neglected. Kwa kifupi, in deciding whether or not we should have duo citizenship, we must take everything into consideration whether morally or not.

 

[CHIKOTI 35]

Give reasons. whether economical,social, or politically, pls. explain!

 

[Makucha]

To you Gad ONEYA on the issue of layalty which is your major concern on dual citizenship and if this is a serious concern, you should come out also to oppose the current practice (law) of allowing foreigners request (who qualify) to become citizens of Tanzania. In your imagination and expectitations, would you honestly trust the layalty of this naturized foreigner (citizen) more than that of a Tanzanian with dual citizenship? There are a list of tangible benefits in favour of dual citizenship than against (being far imaginery and unlikely). Let us be positive, honest, look beyond the nose and be forward-looking.

 

[Dangote]

Tanzania yangu hii dual citizenship mbona ipo kimya kimya wahindi wote wale wana dual citizenship ngoja serikali iseme inataka kuwapeleka mahakamani kina manji na wenzake ndio utajua uraia wao halisi,sawa kuna madaktari watz nje lakini sioni anaachaje kazi marekani na kuja kupga kazi amana hospitali na mshahara huu na work condition hii ya tz,rafiki zangu fulani hapa dar es salaaam ambao ni wachina wameniambia wanasubir kwa hamu dual citizenship hapa tz maaana kwao kumejaa na sheria ya kuzaa mtoto 1 imewachosha na wakenya pia wataomba uraia wanavyotaman hii ardhi lakin anyway wenye maamuzi waamue

 

[Ubumuntu]

Of course, what is moral may be relative to individuals. Kuna kabila moja Afrika ambalo linaamini kwenye arranged marriage na kila wakati wa mavuno lazima kuwe na dansi. Kwenye hii dansi kama umeoa, mke wako anaweza kumchangua mwanaume mwingine mbele yako for a one night stand, to fulfill her lust for that man au hata kufunga nae ndoa. Kwenye hili kabila, it is a moral obligation to do this, imekubaliwa among the people in the tribe including wanaume walioa na hii practice imekuwa passed on kutoka generatiom moja kwenda nyingine kwa miaka na miaka.

Lakini even moral relativism inaweza kupingwa na wale wanaomini kwenye universality ya morality. Ni sawa na wale wanaosema kuwa human rights are universal wakati wapo wengine wanaosema kuwa they are cultural relative. It could go either way depending on the individual.

Kama morality ikajadiliwa katika context ya 'a single entity' kwa mfano, kabila fulani, dini fulani, ukoo fulani, familia fulani etc. Hapo moral universality yaweza kupatikana. Kwani, dini yaweza kuweka principles zake za kiimani ambapo mwamini yeyote anapaswa kuziona ni sahihi. Kwa mfano, wakristo wakatoliki, waona ni immoral kula nyama siku ya Ijumaa kuu; hivyo, katika kanisa la kikatoliki, dunia nzima, hiyo ni universally accepted. Ingawa pia kuna watu ndani ya kanisa wanaweza kuona siyo sahihi; lakini kwa imani, hiyo ni sahihi kwao wengi!. Pia, kwa waislamu, kwao kuna mke zaidi ya mmoja ni universally moral. Lakini kwa watu wengine wana imani zingine, hilo laweza kuwa ni immoral. Ingawa siku hizi hata kuna dini za kikristo sanasana kule Mbeya, zina amini katika polygamy.

Lakini, tukija katika mjadala unaojumuisha entities mbalimbali (makabila tofauti,dini tofauti n.k.) hapa tunapata heterogenous group. Sasa ukishapata aina hiyo ya kundi, huwezi tena kuwa na universality katika morality. Kwani katika kundi hilo, kila mtu atakuwa ana interests zake na perceptions zake; sasa kulileta jambo na kulifanya liwe universally moral katika kundi hilo, kunakuwa ni vigumu.

Hata hivyo, there may be situations ambapo morality inaweza kuwa regarded as universal, rather than relative, regardless of how the law says. Kwa mfano, sheria inasema tuendeshe upande wa kushoto wa barabara. Wakati A anaendesha mara akatokozea B barabarani (upande anaondeshea). Badala ya kumgonga, A akamkwepa B kwa kwenda upande wa kulia mwa barabara (kulikuwa hakuna gari upande huo).

Traffic akamwona A anaendesha upande wa kulia na kumkamata na kumfikisha mahakamani kwa kuendesha gari upande wa kulia mwa barabara kinyume na sheria. Ukiwa kama hakimu utamhukumu kwa mujibu wa sheria au you will think that there was a moral excuse for A to drive on the right side of the road on that particular time? If not, universally, unadhani wananchi wote Tanzania wangemhukumu A kwa kuvunja sheria?

Hapo sababu ipo wazi, A aliendesha gari upande wa kulia ili kuepusha dhahama, ambayo ingeweza kuleta madhara kwa A, B na pengine C, D etc...kwa hiyo kwa dereva A kile alichokifanya kina a moral excuse. Lakini tukienda kwenye sheria hapo kuendesha gari upande ambao siyo sahihi ni legally immoral. Sasa hapa kunakuwaje na universal morality?! Wakati kila upande unalitazama hilo jambo katika misingi yake ya sahihi ama si sahihi!!!

I am not suggesting that duo citizenship is universally acceptable in Tanzania. Rather, morality many not necessarily be relative. I still think that that morality plays a significant role kwenye suala zima la duo citizenship. In fact, sheria nyingi huwa zinatungwa based on what people perceive to be a right or wrong thing to do. Na kwa nchi za wenzetu morality inaplay an important part. Kwa mfano, wanaona it is a right thing for the first to be served first wakati kwetu ni sawa kabisa kwa mtu aliyekuja saa sita mchana kuwa served kabla ya yule aliyekuja saa mbili asubuhi simply because hakuna sheria inayozua hilo.

For this matter (dual citizenship), I can't see how morality shouldn't be relative!! Again, people perceive things and issues differently, you can't force people to perceive issues similarly. Laws are made to shape behaviours and put things in order. They aren't enacted in accordance to what people think it is right or wrong, because, people perceive issues differently. For instance, the wildlife conservation act sees grazing in a national park is a legal offence. Do you think people around Serengeti National Park (waikoma,wakurya, wamaasi n.k.) perceive that to be right? It is the officials at the respective ministry who perceive that as right. But, for the people, grazing in a SENAPA is moral practice as they strive to earn their livelihoods.

Hapo kwenye nyekundu: hapo sidhani upo sahihi kwa upande wetu. Kuna vitu vingine si lazima vitungiwe sheria; norms and practices pia zinaweza kutengeza order kwenye jamii. Mbona tukienda benki, kuna kuwa na queue? Na watu wanaheshimu hiyo queue? Again, I might go back to how people perceive issues; yule anayevunja queue anaweza kuona yupo sahihi kutokana na sababu zake; lakini kwa wale waliopitwa, watamwona hujo jamaa hafai na pengine amewadharau.

Chifu, suala la kipi ni sahihi na kipi siyo sahihi kwa msingi wa uraia wa nchi mbili, linakuwa halina mwisho; na sidhani kama tukienda kwa muktadha huo, litafikia mwisho.

Yes, debate ya duo citizenship must take into account economic, political, etc, benefits to Tanzania and Tanzanians. Lakini pia dual citizenship has a moral dimension which should not be neglected. Kwa kifupi, in deciding whether or not we should have duo citizenship, we must take everything into consideration whether morally or not.

Swadakta. If we discuss the issue in that context, and then we can reach an agreement and probably a conclusion.

 

[Kiranga]

I dare go as far as questioning the entire concept of citizenship in its current form as being outdated.

But that's "a whole 'nother ballgame" as they would say.

 

[Fortilo]

Katika mambo ambayo yamekuwa yakishupaliwa kwa muda mrefu na baadhi ya viongoz wetu, ni suala la uraia wa nchi mbili. nimekuwa motivated zaid na makala katika gazeti la Mawio, yenye kichwa cha habar 'MEMBE: URAIA WA NCHI MBIL HAPANA'... Kwamba pamoja na mambo mengine ni kutaka Kutimiza Ahad ya rais Kikwete Kwa watanzania waliochukua uraia wa marekani. Ukifuatilia zaid, kuna hasara nying kuliko faida ya uraia wa nch mbili, moja wapo ikiwa ni kuukana uraia wa nchi yako ya asil(kwa upande wa marekan), vile vile ni nch 17tu kati ya 173 duniani zinaruhusu uraia wa nch mbil (dual citzenship). katika mazingira ya nchi yetu kwa sasa tukiwa tumegubikwa na wimbi la Ufisad wa kila namna katika sekta ya umma, emb fikiria watu wanaficha fedha uswis na uraia wa nch moja, vp ukiwapa mbili? hil haltachangia kuondolea viongoz wetu uzalendo na hof ya wiz wa mal ya umma? Je mh. membe hana agenda ya kuwanufaisha wafanyabiashara na viongoz wachache wenye uroho wa mali?

 

[Kamundu]

1. Watanzania ambao tayari wana passport wanaomba wasichukuliwe passport zao. Hakuna cha kukana uraia wowote hayo si maneno ya kweli watu wanakupa uraia lakini hawajali una uraia gani mwingine.
2. Kenya wameruhusu Wakenya kuchukua uraia wa nchi nyingine hatujasikia chochote pamoja na kuwa na vita na wasomali wengi nchini kwao.
3. Nchi zote zinazoruhusu zina maendeleo kuliko sisi wanaruhusu kwani hawa ni watu ambao wengi wao ni raia kwa sasa kama wangekuwa wezi wangeiba sasa.
4. Watanzania mara nyingi wanaangaliana watu binafsi na sio faida. Mfano Dr Massau watu waliweka wivu binafsi badala ya kumtumia kama nchi kulete mahusiano na hospitali nyingine na vyuo vikuu. Kila Mtanzania angefaidika kwani uhusiano wa nchi mmoja au sehemu unaweza kuanzishwa na mtu mmoja tu. Kuna madokta mabigwa walikuwa wanataka kuja kutoka Texas kufanya surgery za moyo lakini serikali ilikuwa inazuia Hospitali kwa mambo ya kibinafsi zaidi badala ya kuangalia faida ya baadae. Hapa ni hivyohivyo watu wanapinga kwasababu za kuoneana uivu na sio sababu za kimsingi au kimaendeleo kwasababu Watanzania tunaangaliana tu na kufa masikini. Ndugu zangu wanauraia wa nchi za USA na Canada na sijaona wanachoishidwa kufanya zaidi ya kuwekeza zaidi Tanzania.

 

[timbilimu]

Hii ni issue ya kisheria zaidi,isiingizwe ktk katiba yetu. Watafute utataribu wa kuwasaidia hawa Watanzania wenzetu ambao hautaliingiza taifa letu matatani kwasababu wa uraia popo! Afrika kuna watu wasomi wengi wenye akili za kitumwa bado. Niko na hakika wengi wanaolilia uraia pacha siyo kwa wema bali issues ambazo hazina tija kwa taifa!

 

[Tanzanite klm]

Tuachaneni ujinga ,uoga,na u conservative usio na maana hata kidogo.Tanzania iruhusu mara moja uraia wa nchi mbili.,yani diaspora.faida ni nyingi sana,jiulize kwa nini nchi kama uingereza na nchi zote zilizo endelea zinaruhusu?,na ujue wale ni wataalamu wa masuala mengi.wamejua kuna faida.masalani unapoishi America kama foreigner kuna haki mingi unakosa na garama za maisha zinakuwa juu kiasi kwamba unashindwa kusaidia wa nyumbani.kuhusu mafisadi.hakuna nchi inayofuga mafisadi duniani tofauti na .......nia,tuamke tusiwe nyuma sana.

 

[casampeda]

Mimi naunga mkono uraia wa nchi mbili lakini uwe na madaraja.

1araja la kwanza ni kwa raia wazawa au mmoja wa wazazi ni mzawa ( hawa ndio wawe na uwezo wa kumiliki ardhi)
2: Daraja la pili ni raia wasio wazawa ( hawa watakuwa wanaishi kama raia wengine, kupiga kura ila wasiruhusiwe kumiliki ardhi na kama anataka kumiliki ardhi basi haukane uraia wake wa asili.

Hii itasaidia sana kwa wazawa wasipoteze ardhi kama ilivyo sasa wazawa wengi hawamiliki ardhi

tupo pamoja kuu,umenielewesha vziri.

 

[Kibanga Ampiga Mkoloni]

Inaonekana wengi wanao Ngangania Uraia wa Nchi mbili kwa sasa ni Wazanzibara, Maana wamewekeza bara na wanaogopa kurudi kwao.
Kiukweli hili la Uraia Mbili halikubaliki anayetaka Uraia wa huko na akachukue kama Hataki basi awe Mvumilivu.

By the way tunaposema uraia wa nchi mbili ni upi?
1. Wa Tanzania
2. Wa Tanganyika
3. Wa Zanzibari

Ni uraia upi wanao utaka wao kama washachukua Uraia wa China, Marekani, Canada, Australi Nk.

 

[Kibanga Ampiga Mkoloni]

Tuachaneni ujinga ,uoga,na u conservative usio na maana hata kidogo.Tanzania iruhusu mara moja uraia wa nchi mbili.,yani diaspora.faida ni nyingi sana,jiulize kwa nini nchi kama uingereza na nchi zote zilizo endelea zinaruhusu?,na ujue wale ni wataalamu wa masuala mengi.wamejua kuna faida.masalani unapoishi America kama foreigner kuna haki mingi unakosa na garama za maisha zinakuwa juu kiasi kwamba unashindwa kusaidia wa nyumbani.kuhusu mafisadi.hakuna nchi inayofuga mafisadi duniani tofauti na .......nia,tuamke tusiwe nyuma sana.

Hivi kwa akili yako huko nje kuna wataalamu kuliko waliopo hapa?
Wacha kutuongopea, Kinachotokea ni serekali ya MACCM kushindwa kuweka mazingira na kuwathamini wataalam wa ndani na wewe ndio unaona kuwa hakuna wataalamu.
Kwa taarifa tu tatizo sio wataalamu au Mitaji, Tatizo ni MACCM.

Unafikiri hao waliopo zimbabwe, Botswana na namibia wamekimbia nini Bongo?

 

[kahtaan]

Jamani jamani jamani, Watanzania tuko zaidi ya millioni 40 ambao karibu wote ni masikini, ni wachache tu wenye uhitaji/uwezo wa kuwa na uraia wa nchi mbili. Hawa wachache wenye uraia wa nchi mbili kimagendo (kwa sasa sheria hairuhusu) makusudi yao ya kuwa na uraia wa nchi mbili ni maendeleo ya kibinafsi zaidi kuliko maendeleo ya Watanzania walio wengi.

Watanzania walio na uraia wa nchi mbili wengi wanaogopa kurudi kuishi nyumbani kwa sababu ya hali yetu ya uduni wa maisha, e.g miundo mbinu ya maji, barabara, umeme, matibabu n.k. Hata kama ni kuwekeza hawa ndugu wanaona kuwekeza nyumbani hakulipi kwa sababu ya matatizo yaliyotajwa. Wenzetu wazungu wao mazingira ya kwao ni magumu kuwekeza lakini ni mazingira mazuri ya kuishi kwa menye fedha, wao wanaona kwetu huku ni rahisi kuwekeza (kwa kutuibia) ili wapate fedha za kupeleka kwao kutumia.

Mimi ninamshauri bwana Bernad Membe asisumbuke na kupeleka malumbano bungeni ya uraia wa nchi mbili wakati bado tuna matatizo kibao ya elimu, miundo mbinu, magonjwa, na upungufu wa kuwajibika. Bwana Bernad wacha kupeleka hoja bungeni uliyotumwa na watu wachache, tengeneza mazingira yatakayowafanya watanzania wanaochuma nje warudi kutumia nyumbani, tengeneza utaifa wa kila Mtanzania kujivunia.

Una maana gani unaposema malengo binafsi. Natoa mfano; Mm ni mtanzania ambae ninaishi nje na watoto wangu si raia wa tz. Sasa mi ntakuwa na kichaa gani cha kuwekeza tz ambako ninajua kwa mujibu wa sheria za nchi kuwa chochote kitakacho ntokea basi wtt wangu hawana chao. Na km wakitaka kuendeleza miradi basi waishi km wageni. Walipie visa ya makazi kila mwaka. Haki ya kupiga kura hawana n.k.
Lkn mm nikikubaliwa wtt wangu kuwa raia wa nchi mbili. Je nikijenga hapo bongo. Sijajenga tz?. Nikifungua mradi nalipia kodi serikalini tz au? Na Je sijaajiri watz? Nikitumia gari na machine. Mafuta nanunnua wapi? Na kodi inaenda wapi?
Nchi zoote za ulimwengu wa kwanza zinaruhusu uraia zaidi ya mmoja. Hapa uk ww unaruhusiwa kuwa na passport hata kumi. Na usa pia hvhv. And all over europe.
Sasa Tz wanapenda nchi yao kuliko wazungu wanavyopenda za kwao??
Wacheni ubinafsi huo. We ingekuwa upo kwenye situation kama ya kwangu na unaipenda bongo basi lzm ungeshabikia iraia 2.

 

[kahtaan]

Salaam wanaJF!

Kabla sijaenda mbele zaidi, naomba niulize, hivi ni sahihi kwa suala hili kujadiliwa na wizara inayoongozwa na ndugu Membe? Suala linaluhusu uraia kwanini lijadiliwe na wizara ya mambi ya nje, badala ya wizara ya mambo ya ndani?!

Membe kama waziri wa mambo ya nje anahusika moja kwa moja na uraia wa nchi mbili. Wanaotaka uraia wa nchi mbili wako nje ya nchi na kule wanasimamaiwa na mabalozi ambao wako chini ya Wizara ya mambo ya nje.

Kama miaka 5 hivi nyuma kuna waziri mmoja wa mambo ya nje na uhamiaji wa sweden aliulizwa swali na mhandishi wa habari! Kwa nini waafrika wanapenda kuamia ulaya:

Waziri akajibu: Kuna wakimbizi wa vita na uchumi. mfano wanigeria walio ulaya wanatuma pesa nyingi sana Nigeria kuliko pesa ambazo umoja wa ulaya inaipatia msaada afrika.

Kwahiyo tusiwachukie ndugu zetu bila shaka nao wanatuma pesa nyingi kwa ndg zao na kupunguza umasikini na wewe usie na ndg nje acha wivu tuwapigie debe wapate uraia wa nchi mbili ili waje wajenge mabanda home

Nakupa heko kwa maneno mazuri. Umepiga msumari kwenye kudonda

Hahahaha. Waambie wabongo. Manake wivu mpaka maumivu!

 

[kahtaan]

Mimi naunga mkono uraia wa nchi mbili lakini uwe na madaraja.

1araja la kwanza ni kwa raia wazawa au mmoja wa wazazi ni mzawa ( hawa ndio wawe na uwezo wa kumiliki ardhi)
2: Daraja la pili ni raia wasio wazawa ( hawa watakuwa wanaishi kama raia wengine, kupiga kura ila wasiruhusiwe kumiliki ardhi na kama anataka kumiliki ardhi basi haukane uraia wake wa asili.

Hii itasaidia sana kwa wazawa wasipoteze ardhi kama ilivyo sasa wazawa wengi hawamiliki ardhi

Dhambi ya ubaguzi haitokuwacha hata ww. Na kama una isue ya kumiliki ardhi. Kuna mapori kutoka ddm kwenda singida hayana mwenyewe. We nenda tu kajichotee. Sema chunga fisi. Ni wengi mno

 

[kahtaan]

mh membe anataka kumficha nani hapa kwa uraia wa nchi mbili ,hutuoni mantiki ya kuwa na uraia wa nchi mbili uzalendo utakushinda na utasaliti upande mmoja

Soma faida za uraia mbili ktk nchi yyt kabla ya ku comment. Hakuna usaliti wwt bali ni njia ya maendeleo. Nchi zoote za ulaya zinaruhusu uraia hata 10 kama unaweza. Ss Tz ndo wamesoma saana au wana uchungu saana na nchi yao au??