Till Death Do Us Part!...Wanapendeza Hawa!

I have been doing some basic level reseach on human sexuality in the Bible and I am currently quite confused on the definition of "fornication" translated as "porneia" in the Greek. In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the definition includes "fornication" which in the English language includes a consentual sexual relationship between two heterosexual individuals outside of marriage. But I went back to the Old Testament Laws found in Leviticus and Exodus and Duet...but I couldn't find any Law that specifically says that two heterosexual couples should not have sex outside of marriage. However, it is entirely possible that Jesus added additional Law in the scripture that included sexual relationships with two heterosexual couples outside of marriage. Only with Jesus could additional law be added to the Bible, but not with any of the apostles for that would be claiming to be God...Since only God can create Law.

In addition, if one looks in the NIV at the word "fornication" then goes to Strong's Concordance and looks up the corresponding (or like English word in the NKJ version) it is translated as, again the Greek word "porneia" and under the definition of "porneia" the English word fornication is used. Isn't this confusing and redundant in nature? It seems like Strong is more biased upon the English version of "fornication" which includes sex outside of marriage...rather than what corresponds with Law found in the Old Testament. Is it possible he is being ambiguous because he isn't sure himself as to whether or not "porneia" includes sex outside of marriage
 
Tuesday, 26 May 2009
10. Porneia and the Exception Clause of Matthew 19:9
10. Porneia and the Exception Clause of Matthew 19:9
Anonymous: John, I heard you argue that the Greek word porneia (for "unchastity") in the Exception Clause of Matthew 19:9 refers to any sexual sin. This is incorrect. The word porneia refers only to sexual relationships between blood relatives, that is, those who were too close in consanguinity. To argue that porneia means any sexual sin like adultery is quite Protestant.

J. Salza: Anonymous, you could not be more wrong. In fact, yours is the Protestant position and it is based on a misunderstanding of the application of the Exception Clause. Here is why. Protestants want to except adultery from porneia because they incorrectly interpret the Exception Clause to apply to both the divorce and remarriage. They (at least many of them) correctly believe that it is immoral to divorce and remarry for adultery. Thus, they believe that porneia cannot mean adultery because, according to their interpretation, it is permissible to divorce and remarry for reasons other than adultery (i.e., incest). If porneia included adultery, then, according to their interpretation, it would be okay to divorce and remarry for adultery but this is not true. That is why they argue that porneia does NOT include adultery. You have fallen into this error, and it makes your exegesis of Matthew 19:9 also erroneous.
 
I have previously written a very complete teaching on the subject of divorce and
remarriage. However, the almost universal misunderstanding of the meaning of the
"exception clause" in Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 has led me to write this separate teaching
concentrating solely on the Greek word "porneia" and its variations that many
translators render as adultery. The reason this is done is that for many years, since the
time of Desiderius Erasmus in the fifteenth century, there has been an erroneous
teaching that the porneia spoken of in these verses in Matthew is adultery. Because of
the widespread sinful desire of men and women to find a way of justifying their craving
to divorce their spouses and marry another who they find more attractive at the
moment, this teaching is very widespread and very difficult to eliminate. When you are
facing this kind of opposition the truth becomes veiled in much argumentation. This
document will show further proof that porneia is not another word for adultery. There is
already a Greek word for adultery and it is moicheia. The meaning of moicheia is very
plain and includes only one act; that of having sexual relations with someone other than
your spouse while your spouse is still living. Moicheia is not included in porneia as will
be shown in the many references given below.
I will now examine every place in the New Testament where the word porneia is
 
Wakubisha endeleeni kubisha.

Lakini amini nawaambieni Uzinzi unaotajwa ktk chapta ile ni kufanya ngono ama kufunga ndoa na mtu wa damu yako, hii inaenda vizazi vitatu.

Biblia ya kiingereza imetafsri kutoka original ya kigiriki sawa ilivyo kiswahili , kwa bahati mbaya lugha nyingi hazina maneno ya kigiriki original wamejaribu kuyafanyia combination ili yalete maana.
 
Especially ukielezwa kuwa Mandela kabla ya kumwoa Winnie, alimdump vibaya zaidi Mke wake wa Kwanza wa Ndoa pamoja na watoto wa mke wa kwanza ambao wala hawatajwi. Mimi ningetegemea kuwa Viongozi ndio wangongoza kwenye mifano bora ya Morality lakini sio hawa wakiaAfrika jamani! Halafu wanategemea watoto wao wawe na maadili mema!
 
ndeanasia said:
Especially ukielezwa kuwa Mandela kabla ya kumwoa Winnie, alimdump vibaya zaidi Mke wake wa Kwanza wa Ndoa pamoja na watoto wa mke wa kwanza ambao wala hawatajwi. Mimi ningetegemea kuwa Viongozi ndio wangongoza kwenye mifano bora ya Morality lakini sio hawa wakiaAfrika jamani! Halafu wanategemea watoto wao wawe na maadili mema!
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Ni kweli kabisa.
Kuna kosoro sana, na hata ile tafsri inayotumika siyo yenyewe.Ukisoma kwa kigiriki wala hutahitaji sana kutafsriwa na pastor maana maneno kwa asilimia kubwa yanajieleza yenyewe.

Kifupi kigiriki ni lugha yenye utajiri wa maneno.
 
Injinia said:
Mh, hiyo ni mpya. Nijuavyo mimi uzinzi = adultery
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Mkubwa ni neno ambalo lipo ktk kigiriki wamejaribu kulitafsri ktk lugha ambayo haina neno hilo, na kwa bahati mbaya watu wengi wana refer Biblia ya kiingereza wakifikiri ndo original kumbe nayo ndo imekusa neno.

Nkwa kuongeza tu lakini nje ya topic watu wengi huwa wanajiuliza inakuwa je nchi nyingine inakuwa nchi jike(she) na nyingine inakuwa dume(he). Ndiyo lugha yenyewe hiyo.

Kama sijakosea nchi inayoishia na herufi A mwishoni ni nchi jike na nchi inayoishia kwa konsonati inakuwa dume kutokana na lugha ile.

Hii principo itaikuta ktk lugha chache sana. Hata kiingereza hawana wana copy tu.
 
Na hata hivyo.
Pamoja ni ukweli kwamba neno porneia(uzinzi) lina maana ya tendo la ndoa la wenye damu moja, hapa Yesu analitumia neno hilo kutia msisitizo kwamba hakuna talaka yoyote inayotambulika ambayo inaweza kupatikana kutoka doa halali.

Yesu anatumia neno porneia kuwakirisha ndoa inayoweza kuvunjika ni ndoa ambayo tangu mwazo haikuwa doa halali ila wa husika wanaiita ndoa, anasema mfano kama isivyowezekana kuoana wanadungu wawili(porneia) na kuita ndoa, ndoa yoyote ya namna hii si ndoa na ndiyo inawezekana kuvunjwa.

Yesu alitumia mfano wa neno porneia kuwakirisha ndoa isiyo halali mfano mke kafunga ndoa na mwanamme hanisi ,ndoa hii sio halali inaweza kuvunjwa, mfano wa mwanamke asiye na sehemu za kike kufunga ndoa vitu kama hivyo.

Na hata hivyo ukifuatilia hayo maandiko Yesu aliyojibu neno porneia ni baada ya makundi mawili kumfuata kupata jibu sahihi kuhusu mafundisho waliyokuwa wanayatoa.

Kundi la kwanza lilikuwa linafundisha kwamba unaweza muacha mke kwa sababu yoyote. Na kundi la pili lilikuwa linafundisha unaweza mwacha mke kwa sababu ya ngono mapokeo kutoka kwa Musa.Sasa walikuwa wanataka kujuwa ni kundi lipi ambalo Yesu amesimamia na ndipo walipomuuliza swali hilo.

Kwa majibu ya Yesu kwamba hakuna tengano alilounganisha Mungu binadamu anaweza tenganisha, kundi la pili lika refer Musa aliruhusu. Na yeye akasema unaruhusiwa kuacha mke ikiwa kwa Porneia. Sasa kama Porneia ingekuwa kutoka nje ya ndoa basi kundi la pili lingeibuka mshindi na kushangilia kwamba mafundisho yao yalikuwa sahihi.

Lakini badala yake wote walitoka vichwa chini.Na ndipo Mitume wakaweka conclusion wakasema kama mambo ya kuoa ndo hayo ni bora Mtu usioe kabisa.
 
MkamaP said:
Mkubwa ni neno ambalo lipo ktk kigiriki wamejaribu kulitafsri ktk lugha ambayo haina neno hilo, na kwa bahati mbaya watu wengi wana refer Biblia ya kiingereza wakifikiri ndo original kumbe nayo ndo imekusa neno.

Nkwa kuongeza tu lakini nje ya topic watu wengi huwa wanajiuliza inakuwa je nchi nyingine inakuwa nchi jike(she) na nyingine inakuwa dume(he). Ndiyo lugha yenyewe hiyo.

Kama sijakosea nchi inayoishia na herufi A mwishoni ni nchi jike na nchi inayoishia kwa konsonati inakuwa dume kutokana na lugha ile.

Hii principo itaikuta ktk lugha chache sana. Hata kiingereza hawana wana copy tu.
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Thanks for the explanation. I know English is not the language that the Bible was originally written in. However, I have this one challenge for you, the 10 commandments were given to Moses in the setting of the Old Testament, right? The language of the OT is Hebrew and not Greek. Greek was only used in the New Testament books, correct?

If whatever Greek/ Hebrew word that was used to describe what in Kiswahili is termed "uzinzi", surely it would have been just as easy to transalate the said word into the English "incest" as you imply?
 
Injinia said:
Thanks for the explanation. I know English is not the language that the Bible was originally written in. However, I have this one challenge for you, the 10 commandments were given to Moses in the setting of the Old Testament, right? The language of the OT is Hebrew and not Greek. Greek was only used in the New Testament books, correct?

If whatever Greek/ Hebrew word that was used to describe what in Kiswahili is termed "uzinzi", surely it would have been just as easy to transalate the said word into the English "incest" as you imply?
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Ni kweli lakini bado halina ubora na usahihi uleule wa porneia.
na ukipitia biblia ya english ya zamani ,utakuta hilo neno limetumika. I will try to fetch some phrases if any.
 
The scriptural case against same-sex intercourse is based on three main points:

a) The bibles teaching is that sex is only lawful within the marriage of a man and a woman.
b) All other sex outside of marriage is unlawful and is condemned in scripture (adultery, sexual immorality , incest, same-sex intercourse, bestiality).
c) Same-sex intercourse is explicitly condemned in both testaments (and in both cases it is counter-
cultural)

g) Love does not make an adulterous relationship lawful before God. Love does not make an incestuous relationship lawful before God; love does not make a homosexual relation before God lawful.

h) In scripture sex is lawful between a man and a woman in the covenant relationship of marriage. That is it is for life. (Rom 7:2, 1Cor 7:10, 1Cor 7:39)

For alternative descriptions of marriage (Concubinage, Polygamy, Levirate marriage and Incestuous marriage) see here.



Angalia kwa umakini
 
Then Gothard talks of a "porneia marriage" and distorts 1 Corinthians 5:1 by saying, "The incestuous marriage of a son with his mother (I Corinthians 5:1) was a porneia marriage." First, the passage cited is not talking about marriage at all, but incest of a son with his mother. Secondly, the passage states clearly "that a man has his father's wife." How could his mother be his wife when the text says she was his father's wife? It is clear that this is not a "porneia marriage" (whatever that is) and not a marriage at all, but a clear case of incest and has nothing to do with Matthew 19 and the exception clause. The context of 1 Corinthians 5 is heinous sin and church discipline.


Mkuu wangu endelea kuoanisha vipande vipande , na wenda mwisho utakuja kukubaliana na mimi, watu wamejaribu kuki bypass kile kipengele ili wajitwalie mabiti wa bichi ama vijana wabichi.

Angalia neno lilotumika 1 Corinthians 5:1 ambapo ndugu wa damu, na urudi tena kucheki mathayo 19:9
 
In the Sermon on the Mount, our Lord told His disciples that "whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality" commits sin (Matthew 5:32). Jesus told the same thing to the Pharisees who questioned Him about "no fault" divorce in Matthew 19:1-9.

The word translated as "sexual immorality" in the New King James Version of Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 is the Greek word porneia. Without exception, the King James Translation uses the word "fornication" every time the Greek word porneia is found. Other versions of the Bible translate this word in a variety of ways. Moffatt and the Revised Standard Version translate porneia as "unchastity" in both passages. The New International Version translates porneia in both passages as "marital unfaithfulness." Goodspeed and Weymouth translate porneia as "unfaithfulness" in both texts.

Lakini ukweli utabaki kuwa ule ule kwamba Porneia ni ndoa ya watu wa damu
 
MkamaP said:
Teh teh teh teh
mie siamini hivyo naamini ni shetani aliyewaunganisha.
maana imeandikwa yeyote atayemwacha mme/mke isipokuwa tu kwa uzinzi basi mtu huyo atakuwa ana zini.
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Na ndivyo Winnie alivyopigwa kibuti ni kwa- UZINZI asa unachokikataa hapa ni kipi?
 
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