Ten Commandments

MaxShimba said:

Read post number 4.

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Post number 4!! mpaka sasa hujaona tofauti bado?
Kuhusu hio lugha sasa. The holy tongue [which are today 'Jewish' Armaic (I am aware this is a wrong term, but it consist of 6 different dialects which are not interesting to give here] and 'Biblical' Hebrew. The sanctifying of the language started somewhere 100 CE... Meaning that before Hebrew was considered as just a language like ours (proves for this statement have been found in excavations, on stone tablets in bothe Israel (the upper kingdom) and Judea (the lower kingdom) and in Jerusalem. The excistence of at least 3 different dialects (all influenced by other semitic languages nearby) and reflected by different versions of the same (biblical texts) are all backing up this statement.

Further... huyo Moses Did not learn Hebrew in court. No logical reason for it, since our Kikwete is not learning Congolese or Zulu... Maybe French for the sake of Kabila and and English (being Highschool languages) but that's it. The same goes for Royal Egypt anno da zumahl. They spoke and wrote Egyptian [might be known with the people of ISrael two.. as they performed various acts of slavery - On Egyptians commands]... Egyptian influence (in language) can be found in psalm 114. .. Further Akkadian was a diplomatic language AND a semitic language which Abraham must have spoken. Akkadian was know at court [see rosetta stone].. And maybe with the Hebrews aswell [Akkadian lonewoards and language influences are scatter throughout the 'old' parts of the Hebrew bible.

When god says.. I speak to you in a clear language [meaning, for everyone to understand], than obviously He would NOT pick Hebrew [since 1] it did not excist, 2) being a canaanitic language, nobody had been to canaaan, it would not have been a language the people understood or would likely to gain control of in the near future. 3) Both Akkadian and Egyptian (for now) can be considered known languages i.e. clear languages for both Moses (who had to wright everything down) and his people.

Asante Max kwa ufafanuzi wa kisomi. Mimi ni mkatoliki nimesoma Biblia yote, kitabu kwa kitabu na mstari kwa mstari. Pia nimesoma kidogo Qoraan na kidogo kidogo imani nyingine sasa niko India nasoma Ayuverda kwenye Hinduism na kumsomaDalai Lama.

Musa iliyepewa zile amri kumi za Mungu ni Musa huyo huyo mmoja na sheria ya Musa kwenye Torati ndio sheria hiyo hiyo ya Wakristu na Waislamu, hivyo Mungu wetu ni mmoja. Tofauti yetu na wenzetu ni Yesu na Mtume tuu. Hivyo japo tu tofauti lakini wote sisi ni wamoja,

Halafu nilikuambia kwamba kama utatumia mistari ya bible ndio utakuwa comfused mpaka milele.

Iko mistari kwenye bible iko awful,
Au utauliza kwanini iliandikwa wakati huo na waumini wa sasa wanafanya vingine?
Mfano kwenye Ten commandments usiabudu sanamu au mungu mwingine .
Unajiuliza kwanini wakatoliki wanaweka sanamu?
Iko mistari inayosema wanawake hawana chakusema mbele ya wanaume
Chakushangaza hao hao wazungu walioleta Bible sasa kuna mapadre wakike.
Iko mistari kuhusu mashoga
Chakushangaza wazungu hao hao ndio wanaoruhusu kuwa na mapadre mashoga sasa.

Maswali mengi kwenye bible kwanini aya hizo zimeandikwa zamani na sasa wanafanya vingine, ila kama ninavyosema wajinga ndio waliwao.

Kama dini ndio msingi, tunajua kwamba wamishionari wamekuja kwenye karne za juzi, na waarabu pia.

Je mababu zetu wa hapo mwanzo hawatauona uzima wa milele kwasababu hawakumfuata Yesu au muhamadi?

Wajinga ndio waliwao.

Darwin said:

Post number 4!! mpaka sasa hujaona tofauti bado?
Kuhusu hio lugha sasa. The holy tongue [which are today 'Jewish' Armaic (I am aware this is a wrong term, but it consist of 6 different dialects which are not interesting to give here] and 'Biblical' Hebrew. The sanctifying of the language started somewhere 100 CE... Meaning that before Hebrew was considered as just a language like ours (proves for this statement have been found in excavations, on stone tablets in bothe Israel (the upper kingdom) and Judea (the lower kingdom) and in Jerusalem. The excistence of at least 3 different dialects (all influenced by other semitic languages nearby) and reflected by different versions of the same (biblical texts) are all backing up this statement.

Further... huyo Moses Did not learn Hebrew in court. No logical reason for it, since our Kikwete is not learning Congolese or Zulu... Maybe French for the sake of Kabila and and English (being Highschool languages) but that's it. The same goes for Royal Egypt anno da zumahl. They spoke and wrote Egyptian [might be known with the people of ISrael two.. as they performed various acts of slavery - On Egyptians commands]... Egyptian influence (in language) can be found in psalm 114. .. Further Akkadian was a diplomatic language AND a semitic language which Abraham must have spoken. Akkadian was know at court [see rosetta stone].. And maybe with the Hebrews aswell [Akkadian lonewoards and language influences are scatter throughout the 'old' parts of the Hebrew bible.

When god says.. I speak to you in a clear language [meaning, for everyone to understand], than obviously He would NOT pick Hebrew [since 1] it did not excist, 2) being a canaanitic language, nobody had been to canaaan, it would not have been a language the people understood or would likely to gain control of in the near future. 3) Both Akkadian and Egyptian (for now) can be considered known languages i.e. clear languages for both Moses (who had to wright everything down) and his people.

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Maswali yako yanaonesha kuwa hukusoma narratives zangu. Ndio maana nikasema from the beginning kuwa nitaweka au jibu kila swali peke yake.

You have some computerwork to do. Soma narratives zangu.

Darwin said:

Halafu nilikuambia kwamba kama utatumia mistari ya bible ndio utakuwa comfused mpaka milele.

Iko mistari kwenye bible iko awful,
Au utauliza kwanini iliandikwa wakati huo na waumini wa sasa wanafanya vingine?
Mfano kwenye Ten commandments usiabudu sanamu au mungu mwingine .
Unajiuliza kwanini wakatoliki wanaweka sanamu?
Iko mistari inayosema wanawake hawana chakusema mbele ya wanaume
Chakushangaza hao hao wazungu walioleta Bible sasa kuna mapadre wakike.
Iko mistari kuhusu mashoga
Chakushangaza wazungu hao hao ndio wanaoruhusu kuwa na mapadre mashoga sasa.

Maswali mengi kwenye bible kwanini aya hizo zimeandikwa zamani na sasa wanafanya vingine, ila kama ninavyosema wajinga ndio waliwao.

Kama dini ndio msingi, tunajua kwamba wamishionari wamekuja kwenye karne za juzi, na waarabu pia.

Je mababu zetu wa hapo mwanzo hawatauona uzima wa milele kwasababu hawakumfuata Yesu au muhamadi?

Wajinga ndio waliwao.

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Naona umeamua kupindisha mada. kama unataka kusoma divinity ni bora useme. It is not a problem at all. But first, tumalize kazi ya ten commandment, kama kichwa cha habari kinavyo sema.

Kumbuka, kila somo lina mpangilio wake, huwezi kuruka ngazi na kufikiri utaelewa.

Naona itabidi tuanze na Divinity 101 tutakapo maliza ten commadment.

Pasco said:

Asante Max kwa ufafanuzi wa kisomi. Mimi ni mkatoliki nimesoma Biblia yote, kitabu kwa kitabu na mstari kwa mstari. Pia nimesoma kidogo Qoraan na kidogo kidogo imani nyingine sasa niko India nasoma Ayuverda kwenye Hinduism na kumsomaDalai Lama.

Musa iliyepewa zile amri kumi za Mungu ni Musa huyo huyo mmoja na sheria ya Musa kwenye Torati ndio sheria hiyo hiyo ya Wakristu na Waislamu, hivyo Mungu wetu ni mmoja. Tofauti yetu na wenzetu ni Yesu na Mtume tuu. Hivyo japo tu tofauti lakini wote sisi ni wamoja,

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Asante sana Mkuu kwa compliment zako. India kunasemaje? Mimi nipo NY, snow imemwagika sana.

MaxShimba said:

Maswali yako yanaonesha kuwa hukusoma narratives zangu. Ndio maana nikasema from the beginning kuwa nitaweka au jibu kila swali peke yake.

You have some computerwork to do. Soma narratives zangu.

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How about you, answering my questions one by one.

Umejaza historia tu za lugha ambazo hata mwenyewe huzijui mwanzo wake.

Kama kitu kiliandikwa kwenye jiwe basi kina alphabet

Unajua historia ya alphabet?

MaxShimba said:

Asante sana Mkuu kwa compliment zako. India kunasemaje? Mimi nipo NY, snow imemwagika sana.

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Poleni na baridi. Huwa nikija NY nafikia New Rochele ukishapita Mount Vernon I can imagine snow hali ikoje. India ipo ipo tuu jamaa bado wanaweweseka na shambulio la Mumbai sasa kazi imebakia kunyoosheana vidole na Pakistan. Sorry for off topic. Merry X-mass.

MaxShimba said:

Asante sana Mkuu kwa compliment zako. India kunasemaje? Mimi nipo NY, snow imemwagika sana.

Click to expand...

Poleni na baridi. Huwa nikija NY nafikia New Rochele ukishapita Mount Vernon I can imagine snow hali ikoje. India ipo ipo tuu jamaa bado wanaweweseka na shambulio la Mumbai sasa kazi imebakia kunyoosheana vidole na Pakistan. Sorry for off topic. Merry X-mass.

MaxShimba said:

Asante sana Mkuu kwa compliment zako. India kunasemaje? Mimi nipo NY, snow imemwagika sana.

Click to expand...

Poleni na baridi. Huwa nikija NY nafikia New Rochele ukishapita Mount Vernon I can imagine snow hali ikoje. India ipo ipo tuu jamaa bado wanaweweseka na shambulio la Mumbai sasa kazi imebakia kunyoosheana vidole na Pakistan. Sorry for off topic. Merry X-mass.

MaxShimba said:

Maswali yako yanaonesha kuwa hukusoma narratives zangu. Ndio maana nikasema from the beginning kuwa nitaweka au jibu kila swali peke yake.

You have some computerwork to do. Soma narratives zangu.

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Nimesoma kila ulichoandika ndio maana nikakuambia mwanzo kama unakumbuka hii post

Ahsante kwa ufafanuzi wa hebrew na aramaic lakini bado naona huo muda bado unapishana na uhai wa Moshee.
Kumbuka kwamba pia, kama vitabu vya dini vinavyosema nikwamba Moshee aliishi kwenye {makadirio 1400 kabla ya kristo}

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Kuna hii pia uliyoandika

In Genesis 31:47, Laban and Jacob refer a heap of stones in their native speech. Laban uses phrase "Yegar Sahaduta" which is Aramaic, lakini Jacob anatumia "Gal-Ed" ambayo ni Hebrew.

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Nikakuacha pia ukopi nakuleta vitu ambavyo huvifahamu bila kujibu maswali yangu

Unaikumbuka hii?
Umeiandika mwenyewe bila hata kuifanyia tathmini

In Genesis 31:47, Laban and Jacob refer a heap of stones in their native speech. Laban uses phrase "Yegar Sahaduta" which is Aramaic, lakini Jacob anatumia "Gal-Ed" ambayo ni Hebrew.

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Moses alikua mmoja kama nilivyosoma theology.

Ungenipa jibu la Moses mwenyewe lugha aliyopokea. Laban na Jacob sio waliopokea hizo amri kumi za mungu.

Nataka kujua Moses mwenyewe alipokea kwa lugha gani.

Ukajitahidi kucopy na kupaste kuhusu Jegar,sahadutha na Galeed nikawa nakuangalia tu.


Niliandika hio post hapo juu, sio swali bali kuelezea kile ninachojua, kama unaona ni swali labda umeona hio sentensi ya kwanza kwamba HUONI KWAMBA UNAJICHANGANYA?

As I allready pointed out. Your post was not a counter argument to mine, nor strengthened your, nor gave insite in your own knowledge about that what you are copying.

And again the answer is: your are wrong, do not know what you are talking about and again you are not answering my questions.

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.. And please use your own words and your own knowledge (if any).

Darwin said:

Nitakuja na maswali mengi kutokana na post zako, hasa kuhusu hio hebrew.

Hujanijibu kwanza kama ulivyoandika


Hayo mawe yalikua mangapi?
Walikua Moses wangapi waliopokea?

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Darwin, I'm just wondering whether the Bible would the kind of book to give you the history of Moses. May be history books could. You have to distinguish between a factual narrative and a theological reflection.

A factual narrative conveys a message that what happened and what is reported happened exactly the way it is reported. e.g. A bomb killed four children in Moshi, Kilimanjaro, recently; or the water level of lake Victoria has gone down.

A theological reflection is different. It tells about what happened but in a faith perspective. e.g. God wrote the Ten Commandments on two pieces of stone. In this sense, we know God does neither need hands nor a pencil or pen and a piece of paper or book.

When narrating God's saving economy, the Bible uses a 'special language' that portrays God as a human being or acting like humans do - anthropomorphism - but it is just a reflection that we and other creatures come from him.

The Bible is meant to be read meditatively or prayerfully otherwise we make it say what it doesn't.

We have also to know the use of numbers or sysmbolism: four corners of the world, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples etc.

Sometimes large numbers may not necessarily tell e.g how old Moses was in the way we understand our life span but they give us the idea that he lived a long period or died when he was very old.

Magobe T said:

Darwin, I'm just wondering whether the Bible would the kind of book to give you the history of Moses. May be history books could. You have to distinguish between a factual narrative and a theological reflection.

A factual narrative conveys a message that what happened and what is reported happened exactly the way it is reported. e.g. A bomb killed four children in Moshi, Kilimanjaro, recently or the water level of lake Victoria has gone down.

A theological reflection is different. It tells about what happened but not in a faith perspective. e.g. God wrote the Ten Commandments on two pieces of stone. In this sense, we know God does neither need hands nor a pencil or pen and a piece of paper or book.

When narrating God's saving economy, the Bible uses a 'special language' that portrays God as a human being or acting like humans do - anthropomorphism - but it is just a reflection that we or the created order come from him .

The Bible is meant to be read meditatively or prayerfully otherwise we make it say what it doesn't.

We have also to know the use of numbers or sysmbolism: four corners of the world, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples etc.

Sometimes large numbers may not necessarily tell e.g how old Moses was in the way we understand our life span but they give us the idea that he lived a long period or died when he was very old.

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Magobe T, umeelezea vizuri sana. Be blessed.

It is hard if not impossible for a person like Darwin to distinguish the two narratives you qouted. In my very first reply to him, I warned him, by saying, I will be left with no other option but to answer his questions, distinctively, inter-alia, I was avoiding where he is now.

Pasco said:

Poleni na baridi. Huwa nikija NY nafikia New Rochele ukishapita Mount Vernon I can imagine snow hali ikoje. India ipo ipo tuu jamaa bado wanaweweseka na shambulio la Mumbai sasa kazi imebakia kunyoosheana vidole na Pakistan. Sorry for off topic. Merry X-mass.

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Merry Christmas too. PM me when you visit NY next time. New Rochele kuna Watanzani wengi sana. I used to live in Brooklyn, then the BX, miaka mingi iliyo pita, sasa nipo Highland Mills, North of Mount Vernon or Yonkers.

Darwin said:

Nimesoma kila ulichoandika ndio maana nikakuambia mwanzo kama unakumbuka hii post


Kuna hii pia uliyoandika

Nikakuacha pia ukopi nakuleta vitu ambavyo huvifahamu bila kujibu maswali yangu

Unaikumbuka hii?
Umeiandika mwenyewe bila hata kuifanyia tathmini



Moses alikua mmoja kama nilivyosoma theology.

Ungenipa jibu la Moses mwenyewe lugha aliyopokea. Laban na Jacob sio waliopokea hizo amri kumi za mungu.

Nataka kujua Moses mwenyewe alipokea kwa lugha gani.

Ukajitahidi kucopy na kupaste kuhusu Jegar,sahadutha na Galeed nikawa nakuangalia tu.


Niliandika hio post hapo juu, sio swali bali kuelezea kile ninachojua, kama unaona ni swali labda umeona hio sentensi ya kwanza kwamba HUONI KWAMBA UNAJICHANGANYA?

As I allready pointed out. Your post was not a counter argument to mine, nor strengthened your, nor gave insite in your own knowledge about that what you are copying.

And again the answer is: your are wrong, do not know what you are talking about and again you are not answering my questions.

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.. And please use your own words and your own knowledge (if any).

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Kuhusu Moses, I answered you two times. Moses ni mmoja na si wawili au watatu.

This is what I said, Moses the brother of Mirian and husband of Zippora is the one who received the ten commandments. This is the same Moses who was in Egypt and the same Moses who was in the exodus from Egypt. I mentioned Zipporah so that you can remember that, it was Zipporah's father (An Ethiopian) who sugested that Moses should divide his work to others, while in exodus back to Cannan.

That's why I said read again my narratives.

MaxShimba said:

Answering question number one of darwin kuhusu lugha katika Aseret Hadiberot:

According to the Jewish tradition claims, I repeat, the Jewish tradition claims, that the HEBREW SCRIPT used was Ketav Ashurit (Ikiwa inamaanisha kuwa ni "the classical Hebrew srcipt used in the Scriptures today), and not the older Ketav Ivri (Which was later written [by God] on the second set of the tablets that Moses hewed after he broke the original set)

Sasa, kufuatana na [The Talmud (Hebrew: תַּלְמוּ&#1491😉 ambayo ni record ya rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish laws, ethics, customs, and history.] The sript God wrote the Ten Commandment was in Ketav Ivri (the older sript), instead of Ketav Ashurit (the divine script that was later restored by Ezra kwa Waisraeli). Hivyo basi, the Talmud Yerushalmi inaelezea kwamba ilikuwa ni Ayin ambayo was miraculously suspended in the tablets, na sio the final Mem and Samekh.

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Read the above and tell me what is it don't you understand. Traditions Jews said its was Ketav Ashurit, inter-alia, the Talmud claims that it was Ketav Ivri.

Sasa inategemea unaangalia kutoka upande gani, na umesimama upande gani wa mada.

MaxShimba said:

Read the above and tell me what is it don't you understand. Traditions Jews said its was Ketav Ashurit, inter-alia, the Talmud claims that it was Ketav Ivri.

Sasa inategemea unaangalia kutoka upande gani, na umesimama upande gani wa mada.

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Kwa maana hio hata wewe huwezi kujua ni lugha gani kati ya hizo mbili!!
Kitu chenye uhakika silazima kiwe na msimamo?

Mwisho nakuomba soma kuhusu historia za alphabet.

Mimi nilifikiri umeisoma bible kumbe hata hukuisoma?

Magobe T said:

Darwin, I'm just wondering whether the Bible would the kind of book to give you the history of Moses. May be history books could. You have to distinguish between a factual narrative and a theological reflection.



A theological reflection is different. It tells about what happened but not in a faith perspective. e.g. God wrote the Ten Commandments on two pieces of stone. In this sense, we know God does neither need hands nor a pencil or pen and a piece of paper or book.

Click to expand...

For what proof is worth, scientifically: do you have any proof of that? say, like an undoubted piece of one of the tablets?

Chakushangaza zaidi, moses cannot have written Deut 34:10, as he cannot have known what happened after his existence. And still, moses saying he spoke to god, does not prove it was god, only that moses thought it was. But that may still be a hallucination put upon him by the devil or the great pumpkin.

MaxShimba said:

Kuhusu Moses, I answered you two times. Moses ni mmoja na si wawili au watatu.

This is what I said, Moses the brother of Mirian and husband of Zippora is the one who received the ten commandments. This is the same Moses who was in Egypt and the same Moses who was in the exodus from Egypt. I mentioned Zipporah so that you can remember that, it was Zipporah's father (An Ethiopian) who sugested that Moses should divide his work to others, while in exodus back to Cannan.

That's why I said read again my narratives.

Click to expand...

Unaikumbuka hii?

In Genesis 31:47, Laban and Jacob refer a heap of stones in their native speech. Laban uses phrase "Yegar Sahaduta" which is Aramaic, lakini Jacob anatumia "Gal-Ed" ambayo ni Hebrew.

Click to expand...

Hii umeileta mwenyewe, kwahio hapa umeshaonyesha wazi kutoamini kwamba Moses anayeongelewa pengine ni zaidi ya mmoja.

Kama nilivyosema mwanzo, kitu chenye msimamo kinajulikana.

Kama ukiniambia sasa kwamba mount Meru uko mkoa wa Arusha na hata bado sijafika nitakuamini moja kwa moja.

Lakini ukisema wengine wanasema uko mkoa wa Kilimanjaro, basi hapo nitashindwa kuelewa ni nani anasema sahihi, mpaka niende nikahakikishe mwenyewe.

Darwin said:

For what proof is worth, scientifically: do you have any proof of that? say, like an undoubted piece of one of the tablets?

Chakushangaza zaidi, moses cannot have written Deut 34:10, as he cannot have known what happened after his existence. And still, moses saying he spoke to god, does not prove it was god, only that moses thought it was. But that may still be a hallucination put upon him by the devil or the great pumpkin.

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My friend, you cannot use science to prove anything in the Bible. If you do, it ceases to be science and becomes scienticism. Science is about emperical data, where proof is necessary.

Faith is not concerned with emperical data but what transcends it and proof isn't an aspect of it. In otherwords, it is not an object of science. For instance, no one is able to prove how God created the world and how he even created Adam and Eve and you and me.

Faith is concerned with trust and certanity about God and his saving justice. When we read the Bible, we want to meditate about God and come in touch with our God-self. In this way, we nourish, nurture and strengthen our relationship with God and with one another through the inspiration we get from his word but we cannot prove how that inspiration has come about although we can share about it with others.

So, it doesn't matter whether one has to prove to you that there was only one Moses or there were two in order to make the Bible say the truth. It is up to you to see if it makes sense for you or not. Actually, you cannot force faith but you can only allow it to grow.

Mind you, the Bible is meant for believers - those who can read it and make sense out of it - but not those who make it a history or science book. Ours is 'faith seeking understanding' and not faith that can be proved scientifically.

Since all human knowledge is approximate and not absolute, where science fails to explain something we use another discipline, which is equipped with the tools of explaining what is beyond science - metaphysics or ontology. Faith falls in this category. I wouldn't prove to you whether there was only one Moses or there were two.

What I can do, though, is to advise you to meditate or reflect on what you read in the Bible. There are some Biblical commentaries that can help you understand the context or milieu of a certain era: eg. the time of Moses, Jesus, the first Christian community etc. It's up to you to add on what you know already but certainly science or scientifc proofs will not help you in this.

Have you read, for instance, that when giving evidence in court what is important is relevant evidence (although not all relevant evidence is admissible in court) not logic although we know that logic is an important aspect in arguments! So, does faith and science. Scientific proofs are necessary in life but they do not offer much help in faith. Faith is irrational but that, which makes sense (brings meaning to fundamental questions) to a believer.