Should Tanzania welcome South Sudan (another CoW) into the EAC?

[mwaswast]

Happy Feet

Feasibility studies kwani hazikamiliki?

 

[MK254]

JokaKuu Mbona must you spoil a very good debate, people were already debating so intelligently hadi ukaingia na zile nini zako. Sasa usilalamike kwa nini mnadharauliwa na kutukanwa, mnajitakia wenyewe. Kabisa naona huwezani na mijadala ya kimataifa, waache wenye uwezo huo waendelee.

Mleta mada msemakweli kwa mara ya kwanza nampa hongera kwa kuleta uzi na kuchangia bila kusisimua ushabiki. This can be a very insightful debate. Lets not allow it to degenerate, and stick to pros and cons of allowing South Sudan, Ethiopia and Somalia into forming a greater EAC with the rest of us.

 

[msemakweli]

for Ethiopia YES but SSD Noooo, i have been there i know what am talking about

I have had the misfortune of meeting some S.Sudanese. Those guys are bullies by nature and are always asking for a fight!

 

[mnyake]

Ethiopia's model is in fact the best any African country can pursue. Look at you Kenyans, for instance, your economy is run by foreigners but you dont even notice it!

run by wich foreigners,ccm lied to you to kip u stupid.why always kusifu ethiopia as a model,pple with a smaller economy n double the population of kenya.think hard mmbongo

 

[jMali]

''Rostam Aziz ndio wamiliki'' yeye na nani I thought ni yeye peke yake? And agai its in Kenya hence helps Kenyans .....please leta facts hapa to show his connections to SGR.

Sasa kama unakubali Tanzanians wanamiliki reli na vitu vingine mnavyojisifia where do you think the profit goes? Jisifie for things that are 100% kenyan, sio benki za Aga khan, mining companies za wazungu, industries za wahindi etc.

 

[Iconoclastes]

Ethiopia's model is in fact the best any African country can pursue. Look at you Kenyans, for instance, your economy is run by foreigners but you dont even notice it!

The foreigners dont 'run' our economy. That is one fallacy that was being propagated by the socialist enthusiasts (like your country's founding father) with the aim to incite the public opinion against foreign investments.
msemakweli, do be truthful here, isnt our economic policy the reason why Kenya has the largest, the most sophisticated and vibrant economy, and with the most educated and skilled population of any country in the region?
Those foreign investors bring in their skills, ideas and technology which are taken up by the locals. They employ the local labor, pay taxes to the state and help produce the goods and services the locals have no skilled know-how to produce. It isnt true that us,the locals just sit back and do nothing as the outsiders are engaged in the heavy task of building this country.

 

[Iconoclastes]

Sasa kama unakubali Tanzanians wanamiliki reli na vitu vingine mnavyojisifia where do you think the profit goes? Jisifie for things that are 100% kenyan, sio benki za Aga khan, mining companies za wazungu, industries za wahindi etc.

Why then are not Tanzanian's more well off than Kenyans despite owning 100% those enterprises? Do the revenues trickle down to the ordinary wananchi? Owning 100% shares of businesses by the state doesnt translate to the economic well-being of the country!

The foreigners DO NOT own 100% of the enterprises in Kenya as u probably already know, but they foster efficiency in their management. Yes, there are indeed some businesses owned 100% by foreign individuals, but it doesnt follow that they'll then repartriate all the profits to their mother countries as:
a)they'll have to pay taxes to the state
b)employ the local labor
c)while in the country,they'll be consuming locally produced goods and services.

 

[msumeno]

i have had the misfortune of meeting some s.sudanese. Those guys are bullies by nature and are always asking for a fight!

yes true

 

[msemakweli]

The foreigners dont 'run' our economy. That is one fallacy that was being propagated by the socialist enthusiasts (like your country's founding father) with the aim to incite the public opinion against foreign investments.
msemakweli, do be truthful here, isnt our economic policy the reason why Kenya has the largest, the most sophisticated and vibrant economy, and with the most educated and skilled population of any country in the region?
Those foreign investors bring in their skills, ideas and technology which are taken up by the locals. They employ the local labor, pay taxes to the state and help produce the goods and services the locals have no skilled know-how to produce. It isnt true that us,the locals just sit back and do nothing as the outsiders are engaged in the heavy task of building this country.

True. Foreign investment is never a zero sum game whereby the investor takes all. Besides, you Kenyans were historically better placed compared to other British colonies. Anyways, Ethiopians run most of their economy unlike you, and they are making larger strides compared to you in terms of economic development.

 

[Eric Cartman]

Feasibility studies kwani hazikamiliki?

They do but people also learn from earlier mistakes, from what I read the investment was drafted as PPP the devils is in the details. It is very similar to what happened with IPTL not to forget the same mastermind of IPTL is involved on this one too.

Sasa sijui issue ni zipi maana mwekezaji anakopa kutoka mabenki ya SA apparently he has almost secured the funds. Naona maswala yatakuwa kwenye ROI kama mradi utaweza lipa fixed charges za mwekezaji (maana watakuwa na debt commitment + profit zao).

This time they have every reason to be careful ili serikari kutopata hasara as it happened with IPTL at one point where the government was buying electricity for almost 75 shillings a unit and selling at 25 sh and when they tried to increase public contribution to 45 sh everybody was like TANESCO ni majizi; I think in this instance everything has to be looked up thoroughly no ones wants a repetition ya IPTL kind of investment model what happens mambo ya kienda mrama benki itakuja kudai reli ni yao?

Nadhani kilichobaki ni investment appraisals before committing (but then my stance is limited to external observation rationale).

 

[msemakweli]

run by wich foreigners,ccm lied to you to kip u stupid.why always kusifu ethiopia as a model,pple with a smaller economy n double the population of kenya.think hard mmbongo

I shan't stoop sp low as to trade insults with you, even though i am very capable of doing so. Your economy is run by foreigners and everyone knows that. You need proof? Go read!

 

[Iconoclastes]

True. Foreign investment is never a zero sum game whereby the investor takes all. Besides, you Kenyans were historically better placed compared to other British colonies. Anyways, Ethiopians run most of their economy unlike you, and they are making larger strides compared to you in terms of economic development.

Kenya, just like any other African country, made grand tactical blunders in its economic and political management that greatly imperilled its progress. The 24yrs of the Moi-era mismanagement and the three years of quandary after the 2007/8 PEV are the cases in point.

Kenya is a mixed-economy, meaning both the state and the private individuals; nationals or foreigners have the right to run enterprises here. No person or law can prohibits them, as long as the enterprise is legit.

Kenya, more than any other country in the region owns more wealth. Check the size of the GDP, infrastructure, exports,tourism etc...all built mostly by the hands of ordinary Kenyans.

 

[msemakweli]

Kenya, just like any other African country, made grand tactical blunders in its economic and political management that greatly imperilled its progress. The 24yrs of the Moi-era mismanagement and the three years of quandary after the 2007/8 PEV are the cases in point.

Kenya is a mixed-economy, meaning both the state and the private individuals; nationals or foreigners have the right to run enterprises here. No person or law can prohibits them, as long as the enterprise is legit.

Kenya, more than any other country in the region owns more wealth. Check the size of the GDP, infrastructure, exports,tourism etc...all built mostly by the hands of ordinary Kenyans.

You mean British hands right? But, going back to the topic of discussion......you think Ethiopia (and greater East Africa) shouldn't be brought onboard?

 

[jMali]

Why then are not Tanzanian's more well off than Kenyans despite owning 100% those enterprises? Do the revenues trickle down to the ordinary wananchi? Owning 100% shares of businesses by the state doesnt translate to the economic well-being of the country!

The foreigners DO NOT own 100% of the enterprises in Kenya as u probably already know, but they foster efficiency in their management. Yes, there are indeed some businesses owned 100% by foreign individuals, but it doesnt follow that they'll then repartriate all the profits to their mother countries as:
a)they'll have to pay taxes to the state
b)employ the local labor
c)while in the country,they'll be consuming locally produced goods and services.

The problem we have (Ke and TZ people) in this forum is pointless competition where one feels the need to just jump into an argument mid-way like you did just to defend his countrymen without tracing where the argument started. You are now introducing things that i've never questioned. If you go back few comments you will find the argument goes as follows:

1. Your fellow kenyan praises his gov for doing a railway project and at the same time downplay our role in the EAC saying we tanzanians are "asleep" while you guys take over.
2. I gave an example of a Tanzanian investor in one of your "kenyan" rail projects, to counter attack the "tumelala" issue. Rostam Aziz and his Mirambo company who were involved in a railway project connecting Kenya and Uganda.
3. Your friend then claims it doesn't matter since the rail is kenya, it benefits kenyans.
4. I question where he thought Rostam Aziz and other foreign investors ultimately take their profits to if not their own countries.
5. This is where you jump in and introduce the welfare comparison angle...

Whether majority of Tanzanians or Kenyans are better off than others is entirely a different argument, and second TZ gov doesn't own 100% of all enterprises. We embarked in a privatization exercise way back since Mkapa's era. Most of our enterprises are not owned by the gov that's why you don't find nobody claiming Tanzanians run their economy. We seem to be on the same boat, but you people think you are better just because there are more of those investments located in your country and call them "kenyan", and use them to downplay others who as i have shown sometimes own them....

 

[JokaKuu]

MK254,

..msimamo wangu ni kwamba kuwe na bilateral agreements btn nchi moja moja wanachama wa EAC na South Sudan.

..South Sudan ikiingizwa kwenye EAC maana yake ni kwamba nchi zote wanachama zinawajibika kubeba mzigo wa matatizo waliyonayo.

..mimi hata hii EAC as it is naipinga. sipendi hii model ya EU ambayo tumefuata. napendelea zaidi model ya NAFTA.

cc msemakweli

 

[Iconoclastes]

You mean British hands right? But, going back to the topic of discussion......you think Ethiopia (and greater East Africa) shouldn't be brought onboard?

In the British hands really?
Is it not the relative efficacy of our economic model that caused Tanzania to hastily abandon its previously cherished model that had flopped so miserably to switch to the Kenyan-like model you oh so scoff at at now? U have many times even proudly claimed to have surpassed us in terms of FDI!
:confused2:

*****
I am not opposed in any way to the inclusion of Ethiopia, or any other country within the region to the EAC. I was only cautioning that their economic policy may not be conformable with the freerer models operating across the EAC.
U know that one of the key accords of the EAC is unhindered access to each member state's market. Would Ethiopia accede to this?
One told me about their fear of Kenya's domination of their economy like in the other EAC states...

 

[MK254]

MK254,

..msimamo wangu ni kwamba kuwe na bilateral agreements btn nchi moja moja wanachama wa EAC na South Sudan.

..South Sudan ikiingizwa kwenye EAC maana yake ni kwamba nchi zote wanachama zinawajibika kubeba mzigo wa matatizo waliyonayo.

..mimi hata hii EAC as it is naipinga. sipendi hii model ya EU ambayo tumefuata. napendelea zaidi model ya NAFTA.

cc msemakweli

Hapo naungana na wewe JokaKuu kwamba makubaliano ya bilateral, trilateral etc ndio zinazofaa, muungano kama wa EAC unatuchelewesha wakati dunia ya sasa kwa jinsi ilivyo, hamna muda wa kumsubiri yeyote. Humo ndani ya EAC ikubalike nchi tofauti ziwe na makubaliano yao kwa wao bila yeyote kulalamika kwamba anatengwa.

Yaani tunakua na makubaliano yetu na Tanzania ambayo hatufai kuomba ruhusa Uganda, na vile vile Tanzania na Rwanda wanafanya yao bila kumsubiri Mkenya kuidhinisha.

 

[msemakweli]

MK254,

..msimamo wangu ni kwamba kuwe na bilateral agreements btn nchi moja moja wanachama wa EAC na South Sudan.

..South Sudan ikiingizwa kwenye EAC maana yake ni kwamba nchi zote wanachama zinawajibika kubeba mzigo wa matatizo waliyonayo.

..mimi hata hii EAC as it is naipinga. sipendi hii model ya EU ambayo tumefuata. napendelea zaidi model ya NAFTA.

cc msemakweli

Well said mkuu. Before the EU could pause to breathe after the Euro beatdown, the immigration crisis showed up threatening the continuity of the schengen treaty. Yet the EAC, foolish as we are, bado tumengangana huko tu!
It would be wise to overhaul the whole EAC treaty. Shift the approach and strategies. The goal of political federation in itself is not bad, but the strategies we are employing to get there warrant some critical thinking!

 

[KANYONYOZI]

Kenya tayari wanatengeza reli nyie mmelala hivyo basi tengezeni reli ikielekea SADC............EAC ni ya Kenya.

Ipo reli ha TAZARA toka miaka ya sabini na ni SGR kama inayojengwa Kenya hivi sasa...

 

[Iconoclastes]

Ipo reli ha TAZARA toka miaka ya sabini na ni SGR kama inayojengwa Kenya hivi sasa...

La hasha, TAZARA haliko kwenye category ya SGR,bali ni ya aina ya CGS (ama Cape Guage Standard). Ni kama tu zile ambazo zinatumika kwenye mataifa za kusini mwa Afrika.

Nafkiri Tanzania decided to build that railway, consistent with the ones being used in southern Africa, in the hope that it would one day be the chief provider of port services to those landlocked countries of that region, eg Zambia and then gradually it would include Zimbabwe (the former Rhodesia, upon attaining its independence),Botswana, Malawi etc...