Image of virgin Mary grows on tree

dotnet · Nov 20, 2014

The discussion was actually about Mary, and I stand on the side that does not encourage any prayers or worship that in any way involve Mary. I have no problem with someone praying for someone else, the issue here is that Mary is not alive, she is dead. And, I would be happy to see people praise and worship Jesus directly, not through any person as a means to reach Jesus. This is different from receiving spiritual teachings from men of God which is okay for me.

But the discussion has moved to trying to find proof of the existence of God. Christians and other believers can prove this existence among themselves because they speak the same language, but Christians and non believers cannot get this debate closed with a common understanding because they have different beliefs with some considered stupid for they do not believe in what others (Christians) believe.

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

dotnet said:
Which God are you talking about? yes gods must have the beginning and of course the end, but God has and will never be in that category.

it is true if you accept that everything has a beginning then God also must have a beginning and since God is the Supreme Being and infinite knowledge unlimited power
present everywhere, perfect goodness, divine
simplicity and eternal.

it means it begins with God and it ends with God.

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

Maziku Masunga Jr. said:
if you insist logic ideas, you've closed all doors to any possible real answers

I have told Kiranga, He is a logical positivism scholar ... and philosophical basis for logical positivism,
automatically excludes the possibility of a deity
without proof

"whatever we come up with, He will dispute such
a hypothesis because it is not logical"

so this is an ending discussion.

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

dotnet said:
The discussion was actually about Mary, and I stand on the side that does not encourage any prayers or worship that in any way involve Mary. I have no problem with someone praying for someone else, the issue here is that Mary is not alive, she is dead. And, I would be happy to see people praise and worship Jesus directly, not through any person as a means to reach Jesus. This is different from receiving spiritual teachings from men of God which is okay for me.

But the discussion has moved to trying to find proof of the existence of God. Christians and other believers can prove this existence among themselves because they speak the same language, but Christians and non believers cannot get this debate closed with a common understanding because they have different beliefs with some considered stupid for they do not believe in what others (Christians) believe.

do you have proof that Mary died????

dotnet · Nov 20, 2014

Mundungus Fletcher said:
it is true if you accept that everything has a beginning then God also must have a beginning and since God is the Supreme Being and infinite knowledge unlimited power
present everywhere, perfect goodness, divine
simplicity and eternal.

it means it begins with God and it ends with God.

Who told you everything must have the beginning and the end, who?

dotnet · Nov 20, 2014

Mundungus Fletcher said:
do you have proof that Mary died????

The proof is that there is no verse in the Bible mentioning her to be alive (she never died). And there is no way she can be still living on earth for so many years (in excess of 2000 years).

Can you mention that verse mentioning Mary to be alive in heaven in the manner we know and believe prophets Elijah and Moses are?

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

dotnet said:
Who told you everything must have the beginning and the end, who?

so tell me what has a beginning and does not have an end...?

or does not have an beginning nor an end?

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

dotnet said:
The proof is that there is no verse in the Bible mentioning her to be alive (she never died). And there is no way she can be still living on earth for so many years (in excess of 2000 years).

Can you mention that verse mentioning Mary to be alive in heaven in the manner we know and believe prophets Elijah and Moses are?

so what manner do u think Moses and Elijah still exist?

so if the bible did not mention Mary not being alive so u concluded she is dead????

do u think Jesus ever went to toilet.. ? if yes can you show me a verse that states Jesus went to toilet.

Kiranga · Nov 20, 2014

Maziku Masunga Jr. said:
if you insist logic ideas, you've closed all doors to any possible real answers

And why is that?

What is "real"?

To the contrary, if you close the door to a logical standard, you open another which has no logical standard and therefore exposing yourself to a situation where all statements and all their negations and everything in between are true.

If you dispute logic, then you dispute all the classic bible acholars who used logic. From St Augustine to Anselm. Even Jesus used logic in his parables and questions, who are you to challenge the validity of logic?

Kiranga · Nov 20, 2014

dotnet said:
NO, I don't.

Then you are a hypocrite and a fraud.

Kiranga · Nov 20, 2014

Mundungus Fletcher said:
it is true if you accept that everything has a beginning then God also must have a beginning and since God is the Supreme Being and infinite knowledge unlimited power
present everywhere, perfect goodness, divine
simplicity and eternal.

it means it begins with God and it ends with God.

Why would a good who is perfectly good and has all knowledge and love create a world in which imperfection, suffering and evil runs amok?

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

Kiranga said:
And why is that?

What is "real"?

To the contrary, if you close the door to a logical standard, you open another which has no logical standard and therefore exposing yourself to a situation where all statements and all their negations and everything in between are true.

If you dispute logic, then you dispute all the classic bible acholars who used logic. From St Augustine to Anselm. Even Jesus used logic in his parables and questions, who are you to challenge the validity of logic?

St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas acknowledge logic has limitations.

the limitation is science. science needs experiment and proof.

Jesus did use logic but He behaved "illogically"

Kiranga · Nov 20, 2014

Mundungus Fletcher said:
St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas acknowledge logic has limitations.

the limitation is science. science needs experiment and proof.

Jesus did use logic but He behaved "illogically"

The fact that your ruler has limitation does not mean it is not good for measuring the length of an exercise book.

The fact that a watch has limitation.does.not mean that it is not good for getting you to work on time.

The fact that Jesus used logic but behaved illogically only underscores how inconsistent he was.

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

Kiranga said:
Why would a good who is perfectly good and has all knowledge and love create a world in which imperfection, suffering and evil runs amok?

when God created, it is true that all He
created was good. One of the good things God
made was men and angels who had the freedom to
choose good. To have a real choice, God
had to allow there to be something besides good
to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and
humans to make free choice

When a bad relationship exists between two good
things we call that evil, but it does not become a
thing that required God to create it.

Evil is the absence of good. God did not
have to create evil, but rather only allow for the
absence of good.

God did not create evil, If
God had not allowed for the possibility of free will,
both mankind and angels would be serving God
out of obligation, not choice. He did not want
robots that simply did what He wanted them to
do.

God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

Kiranga · Nov 20, 2014

Mundungus Fletcher said:
when God created, it is true that all He
created was good. One of the good things God
made was men and angels who had the freedom to
choose good. To have a real choice, God
had to allow there to be something besides good
to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and
humans to make free choice

When a bad relationship exists between two good
things we call that evil, but it does not become a
thing that required God to create it.

Evil is the absence of good. God did not
have to create evil, but rather only allow for the
absence of good.

God did not create evil, If
God had not allowed for the possibility of free will,
both mankind and angels would be serving God
out of obligation, not choice. He did not want
"robots" that simply did what He wanted them to
do.

God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

You wrote "God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose."

"God had to" ?

Do you understand what that means?

If god is so big on choice, why did he not give us the choice to go back in time and right our wrongs?

dotnet · Nov 20, 2014

Mundungus Fletcher said:
so tell me what has a beginning and does not have an end...?

or does not have an beginning nor an end?

God (the Almighty) has no beginning and no end. If you try to bring hunan logic to this you may run mad. All other things have start and end line but not God.

dotnet · Nov 20, 2014

Kiranga said:
Then you are a hypocrite and a fraud.

According to your weak humanly thinking.

dotnet · Nov 20, 2014

Mundungus Fletcher said:
so what manner do u think Moses and Elijah still exist?

so if the bible did not mention Mary not being alive so u concluded she is dead????

do u think Jesus ever went to toilet.. ? if yes can you show me a verse that states Jesus went to toilet.

Asking if I think Jesus went to toilet does not by any way justify Mary is still alive. And, what does it add or help if the Bible would mention that Jesus visited the toilet?

Just show me a scripture mentioning Mary is alive now.

For Moses and Elijah, the bible says openly that they were taken to heaven. And they even appeared before Jesus when He was about to give up and was worried of being crucified, heard and learned of that?

Mundungus Fletcher · Nov 20, 2014

Kiranga said:
You wrote "God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose."

"God had to" ?

Do you understand what that means?

If god is so big on choice, why did he not give us the choice to go back in time and right our wrongs?

He sent Jesus

dotnet · Nov 20, 2014

Maziku Masunga Jr. said:
Validity of logic is about to find the best explanation based on logic and evidence,right..!!
Religion is about abandoning logic, ignoring evidence, and believing something is true.

You think so?

Image of virgin Mary grows on tree

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