Babu wa Loliondo "avuliwa nguo"

ELLET · Mar 25, 2011

What is going on in Liliondo once happened in Uganda in 1989.
Nanyonga giving blessed soil | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Dave Blumenkrantz: Photojournalism, Documentary, and Visual Communications Studies . . .

If God says something is true, a thousand or million voices against it cant make if false, and if HE says something is false, a thousand or a million voices in favour of it cant make it True.

Chapakazi · Mar 25, 2011

Kiranga said:
To the contrary, your argument (if at all you can exhibit the shameless audacity to call it that) is the one that comes across as exceedingly weak.

Science does not pretend to have all the answers. In fact, the basis of science is rooted in finding out answers by observation and experimentation. So the fact that science cannot explain what life is is rather immaterial in my dispute over religiosity. In fact, your inference that I am pro-science is totally misguided. I could be anti-religious and anti-science at the same time. This need not be an either science or religion question, only a narrowness of one's framework would rail the issue as such.

Unachosema hapa ni kama mtu kakwambia "njia yako hiyo si ya kweli, na haiwezi kukufikisha unakotaka kwenda, kwani unaenda kusini unavuka mto Ruvuma kuelekea Msumbiji wakati unataka kwenda Nairobi" halafu na wewe unajibu kwa kusema " Njia yako ya kaskazini inaweza kunipeleka Eastleigh Nairobi ?"

Ingawa sayansi haina majibu ya hakika kabisa (majibu ya hakika kabisa - hata kama hayapimiki- ni eneo la dini) lakini sayansi inatupa picha nzuri zaidi kuliko dini. Ili kujua njia gani kati ya sayansi na dini ni sahihi, sihitaji kujua jibu exact. Naweza nisijue square root ya 9, lakini nitajua kwamba haiwezi kuwa kubwa kuliko 9 (nishapata point ya kwanza ya ku converge hapo) then nikajua kwamba 4 squared ni 16, kwa hiyo square root ya 9 probably ni less than 4, halafu nikajua kwamba 2 squared ni 4, kwa hiyo nikajua square root ya 9 ipo kati ya 2 na 4, nina converge kwenda kwenye the right answer comfortably. Hata kama sina the right answer najua it is just a matter of time. Ndiyo sayansi inavyofanya kazi. It is a self correcting discipline through the efforts of observation, experimentation, peer review etc.

Sio kama dini inayokuambia kila kitu ni kazi ya mungu, bila kukupa kitu chochote chenye ushahidi concrete kwamba mungu yupo.

Unaweza kunipa ushahidi wowote concrete kwamba mungu yupo ? Na usinipe maandiko ya misahafu matupu, maana hata Shakespeare alimuandika Romeo, na huyo alikuwa fictional character tu.

Hizi habari za kutegemea-tegemea mungu na supernatural powers ndizo zinatufanya waafrika tunakuwa maskini kila siku tunajazana makanisani, misikitini na kwa waganga (it is all the same to me) wakati wenzetu wanaongeza effort katika scientific research.

Tutakula mi placebo sana tu kwa mtaji huu. Kwanza kila kitu chetu placebo, kuanzia uongozi mpaka bajeti, sasa cha kushangaa kwa huyu babu hata sikioni.

hahaha....U seem to be off loading ur bag of rubbish once more! Nobody cares whether u r pro-science or other God knows wat group. Umeandika habari ndefu (pumba) wakati conclusion ni simple. As long as science does not have the answer to the critical question of life, it cannot criticises religious beliefs. By the way, religious beliefs are based on faith, which is an unmeasurable. Kwa hiyo hapo science haina chance ya kupima. Kwa hiyo kama inataka ku-challenge religion, itafute jibu la swali la life.
I know God exists from my personal experiences. Wewe endelea kutafuta evidence yako mwenyewe.
By the way, sidhani kama science ina-disprove existance of God. It only works to prove it.

bmx · Mar 25, 2011

Mgalatia said:
Mimi nina mashaka makubwa na hicho kikombe cha babu kwa misingi ya kiimani ( samahani kwa watakaokwazika).Katika imani katoliki sala zina nguvu ya kuvunja miamba. Tumeshuhudia kwa kuona na kusikia pia kusoma jinsi mchakato anaoupitia mtu ambaye anataka kutangazwa mwenye heri au mtakatifu. Inabidi mgonjwa ambaye amethibitika hospitalini kuumwa ugonjwa ambao madaktari wameshindwa kumtibu, aponywe na Mungu kwa maombezi ya huyu mtu aliyekwisha aga dunia. Na hii inafanyika kwa levels mbili(kwa ajili ya kuitwa mwenye heri na pia level 2 kuitwa mtakatifu) Mungu hutoa majibu ili kudhihirisha kuwa huyo marehemu yuko kwake mbinguni au la. Hawa wagonjwa Mungu anawaponya bila kunywa miti shamba iliyochemshwa.
Pili, nina ushuhuda wa maji ya baraka ya Huduma za maombezi riverside ubungo kuletwa na Mungu kwa maana ya kuwa na baraka za pekee ( Yana damu na maji toka ubavuni kwa Bwana Yesu na machozi ya Mama Bikira Maria yanayoponya na kutakasa). Hivyo ninayoamini ni kuwa Mungu hajipingi; hawezi kuleta hiki watu watumie ili wapone halafu alete kitu kingine tena cha kwenda kuchuma na kuchemsha halafu agawe mwenyewe tu!. Hata dawa za kisayansi zinagunduliwa kwa uwezo wa Mungu na zinakuwa mass produced. Hapa ni kupeana umasikini tu na si ajabu vifo maana nimeshasikia watu wengi kufa aidha wakati wanaenda au wanapokuwa wametoka Loliondo.
Kinachofanyika sasa ni kuwa hakuna toba! Kunywa kikombe cha babu utapona! uongo ulioje!
Ni heri wagonjwa wangeendelea na dawa za hospitali ila tufikirie kama taifa njia nzuri ya kuomba huruma ya Mungu aponye maradhi yetu yote.:frown:
Sina nia ya kuzua mjadala ila tuzidi kumuomba Mungu na kungoja na kuona matokeo.

hospitali hakuna dawa ya kansa, ukimwi wala kisukali, ni dawa gani hizo waendelee kunywa?

Lokissa · Mar 25, 2011

huyu bwana mada zake za kumpinga babu huyu sii bure katumwa na ibilisi haswa acha kuchezea imani za watu mediaman na acha kuandika mada za kijinga tangu umeingia jf huna jipya,, tena ushindwe na ulegeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee kavuliwa nguo wapi? hivi umeishia kidato cha ngapi? umekosa waumini na sadaka ukaona uingie jf kumchafua? watu wana ushuhuda hawakurupuki kwenda,hata mm nkirudi tz lazima nikapate kikombe kwa babu.kama babu kakuudhi kwa uponyaji wake we jimalize....

MWENDAKULIMA · Mar 25, 2011

mediaman said:
"Hapa Arusha KILA HOSPITALI IMEPOKEA WATU WA MAGONJWA YA PRESHA, KISUKARI, PUMU, N.K. AMBAO WALIKWENDA LOLIONDO "KUTIBIWA" MARADHI HAYO NA BAADA YA KUPATA "NAFUU" (PSYCHOLOGICAL) KWA KAMA WIKI MBILI TU WAMEANZA KUUMWA SERIOUSLY NA KURUDIA DAWA ZAO ZA HOSPITALI TENA.

Pili, mimi nikiwa mfanyakazi wa maabara ya hospitali ya MT Meru, sijaona hata mgonjwa mmoja wa ukimwi aliyepata "seroconversion" yaani kurudi "seronegative from serpositive status". Kinachosikitisha ni kuwa kuna watu hawataki kabisa kusikia yanayosemwa na madaktari na wafanyakazi wa hospitali mbalimbali hapa Arusha ambao kila siku tuna-deal na watu wanaozidiwa baada ya kwenda Loliondo.

Mbaya zaidi kuna magazeti, tv na redio hayataki kabisa kusikia ukweli wa majanga yaliyowafika watu waliokwenda huko. Ajabu pia ni kuwa kuna watu ambao ukitaka kuwaeleza ukweli wanakuona wewe ni mpagani usiyemwamini Mungu. Naomba waandishi wa habari wawe proactive katika kutafuta ukweli na si kutegemea mass hysteria iliyowakumba maelfu ya watu wanaotafuta miujiza kwa nguvu."

Source: MJENGWA - Picha, Habari & Matangazo: Kama Haya Ni Ya Kweli: Tiba Ya ' Babu' Na Ushuhuda Wa Kimaabara

I've been refraining from neither supporting nor opposing u but this time round inabidi nidoubt dhamira ya post zako,watu wengi wanajaribu kuconnect tarehe yako ya kujiunga na forum na comments zako towards babu.Great thinker natilia shaka dhamira yako! au kama wanavyohisi waungwana wengine are u one of the losers in this babu's matter?

Chapakazi · Mar 25, 2011

ELLET said:
What is going on in Liliondo once happened in Uganda in 1989.
Nanyonga giving blessed soil | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Dave Blumenkrantz: Photojournalism, Documentary, and Visual Communications Studies . . .

If God says something is true, a thousand or million voices against it cant make if false, and if HE says something is false, a thousand or a million voices in favour of it cant make it True.

hii ipo interesting kweli...

Kiranga · Mar 25, 2011

Chamoto said:
Kiranga you have to understand that infinity is just a mathematical concept (it's not real). Yes you can prove it mathematically that pie can never be 3.15 there is no doubt about that but let's go back to the definition of pie.

The ratio of circle's circumference to its diameter

So far so good, now what is a circle? One definition is a polygon with an infinite number of sides. What this mean is if you take a pentagon for example and continually increase it's number of sides you'll get closer and closer to a perfect circle. Now that is a mathematical concept any one with basic math knowledge can prove it.

Now let's come to reality

In particle physics (I know you love this), when you bombard subatomic particles you'll reach a point where you get to elementary particles, quarks. In other words there is a limit. Now how come we can have an infinite number of sides where in reality there is no such a thing? Are you trying to tell me that we can infinitely divided subatomic particle? It doesn't work in reality.

We know in number theory that there are infinite number of rational numbers between two points. Now let's say you have a yard stick and you have task to subdivided it in an infinite number of pieces. You'll reach a point where you'll run out of particles to break even more. In other words the concept of infinity is not real.Unless there is something beyond our understanding, something supernatural.

Whether the universe is finite or infinite, whether subatomic particles can be divided infinitely or not, any of these outcomes do not prove the existence of god. You are trying to connect two unrelated things.

Can you show me why do you think god exists?

mediaman · Mar 25, 2011

lokissa said:
huyu bwana mada zake za kumpinga babu huyu sii bure katumwa na ibilisi haswa acha kuchezea imani za watu mediaman na acha kuandika mada za kijinga tangu umeingia jf huna jipya,, tena ushindwe na ulegeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee kavuliwa nguo wapi? hivi umeishia kidato cha ngapi? umekosa waumini na sadaka ukaona uingie jf kumchafua? watu wana ushuhuda hawakurupuki kwenda,hata mm nkirudi tz lazima nikapate kikombe kwa babu.kama babu kakuudhi kwa uponyaji wake we jimalize....

Waziri wa Afya wa Kenya kwa kumpinga Babu naye ametumwa na shetani? Think and rethink, you are a great thinker.

Mtumiabusara · Mar 25, 2011

Mwanamageuko said:
Hivyo ndivyo ilivyo, na ziada yake ni kwamba:
Dawa ile anayotumia babu kwa wasonjo, wamasai na jamii za wakurya licha ya kuitumia kama sumu kwenye silaha zao za kijadi pia huitumia kama "pain killer" kwa wenye maumivu ya mgongo miguu n.k pia kwa wale wawindaji na wanaotembea umbali mrefu huitumia na dozi ni kikombe kimoja kwa mwezi mmoja na nusu!! Hivyo basi kwa wale wenye kuumwa na viungo wakiitumia huona wamepona kumbe ni nafuu ya muda kama ilivyo kwa zi-panadol!!

Mkuu usitoe conclusion kwa maneno ya kusikia mtaani, otherwise ziite ni tetesi. Kisayansi kama unaweza kupata au una access na Journal of Ethnopharmacology issue 104 page 9299 ya mwaka 2006 utapata kujua huo mti wa mugariga ambapo unachukuliwa kuwa ni anti viral medicinal plant. Pamoja na huo mti, suala la babu bado ni la kiimani zaidi

masingo sharili · Mar 25, 2011

acheni kushindana! kama hutaki kikombe ni wewwe usishawishi wengine.. mtaje mmoja aliyezidiwa baada ya kikombe.

Mtumiabusara · Mar 25, 2011

mediaman said:
"Hapa Arusha KILA HOSPITALI IMEPOKEA WATU WA MAGONJWA YA PRESHA, KISUKARI, PUMU, N.K. AMBAO WALIKWENDA LOLIONDO "KUTIBIWA" MARADHI HAYO NA BAADA YA KUPATA "NAFUU" (PSYCHOLOGICAL) KWA KAMA WIKI MBILI TU WAMEANZA KUUMWA SERIOUSLY NA KURUDIA DAWA ZAO ZA HOSPITALI TENA.

Pili, mimi nikiwa mfanyakazi wa maabara ya hospitali ya MT Meru, sijaona hata mgonjwa mmoja wa ukimwi aliyepata "seroconversion" yaani kurudi "seronegative from serpositive status". Kinachosikitisha ni kuwa kuna watu hawataki kabisa kusikia yanayosemwa na madaktari na wafanyakazi wa hospitali mbalimbali hapa Arusha ambao kila siku tuna-deal na watu wanaozidiwa baada ya kwenda Loliondo.

Mbaya zaidi kuna magazeti, tv na redio hayataki kabisa kusikia ukweli wa majanga yaliyowafika watu waliokwenda huko. Ajabu pia ni kuwa kuna watu ambao ukitaka kuwaeleza ukweli wanakuona wewe ni mpagani usiyemwamini Mungu. Naomba waandishi wa habari wawe proactive katika kutafuta ukweli na si kutegemea mass hysteria iliyowakumba maelfu ya watu wanaotafuta miujiza kwa nguvu."

Source: MJENGWA - Picha, Habari & Matangazo: Kama Haya Ni Ya Kweli: Tiba Ya ' Babu' Na Ushuhuda Wa Kimaabara

Ndugu yangu hivi kila siku lazima uanzishe thread ya kumpinga babu? Hauna topic ingine yaa kuzungumzia? Maana kama ni ulitaka kupata maoni ya Wana JF umeshayapata kutoka kwenye thread zingine ulizozianzisha kuhusu babu, na thread hizo hazijafungwa bado zinaendelea. Ndo maana inafika mahala watu wanakuhusisha na makanisa yaliyopungukiwa waumini au hospitali zinazokosa wagonjwa.

Hapo kwenye red. Mgonjwa uliyempima wewe hawezi akatoa scientific conclusion kuwa ile dawa haina uwezo kwa kuwa babu anawapa kikombe zaidi ya wagonjwa 4000 kwa siku. Ukiwa kama mtu wa medical profession, unataka kutuambia ni dawa gani inamtibu kila mgonjwa bila madhara yoyote? Au hujui kuwa leo kuna watu wakinywa klorokwini wanapona malaria, wengine wanatumia SP tu, wengine dawa mseto, je mtu asipopona malaria baada ya kutumia let say dawa mseto utasema hiyo si dawa?

Kiranga · Mar 25, 2011

Chapakazi said:
hahaha....U seem to be off loading ur bag of rubbish once more!

Wanaokosa hoja utaona wanavyoanza kuporomosha mitusi na kejeli za jumla jumla. I will be better than that.

Nobody cares whether u r pro-science or other God knows wat group.

Obviously you do, why bother answering and mentioning that then? Halafu wewe ndiye spokesperson wa JF nzima?

Umeandika habari ndefu (pumba)

I suspect you do not have what it takes to realize what is casuistry and cosmogony when it comes to issues like this.

wakati conclusion ni simple.

Simpletons siku zote huona kila kitu simple, kwa hiyo sishangai.

As long as science does not have the answer to the critical question of life, it cannot criticises religious beliefs.

Science has more answers than religion, but it is more humble in that it acknowledges the real challenges.

Religion does not have answers apart from explaining everything by some unrealistic supernatural forces, but claims to have the answer to everything. I will choose the former any day.

By the way, religious beliefs are based on faith,

Faith = the absence of knowledge

which is an unmeasurable.

Of course it is unmeasurable, how can you measure an unknown?

Kwa hiyo hapo science haina chance ya kupima.

Sasa kama hakuna cha kupima utanishawishi vipi kama kuna kitu?

Kwa hiyo kama inataka ku-challenge religion, itafute jibu la swali la life.

Science is doing this right now, and though it does not have full answers, it is doing a much better job than the mythology of religion.

I know God exists from my personal experiences.

Which personal experiences? be specific. Which personal experiences of yours that cannot be explained in any other way except by the existence of god ?

Wewe endelea kutafuta evidence yako mwenyewe.

Ushaniambia dini/ mungu ni imani, na mimi sitaki habari za imani kwa sababu faith = lack of knowledge. I want to know. Kwa hiyo hapa hamna deal. Two different worlds.

By the way, sidhani kama science ina-disprove existance of God. It only works to prove it.

Science iko based on proving the provable, ushasema mungu ni imani, science inataka knowledge na si imani. Sasa science ita prove mungu kivipi ?

Mo-TOWN · Mar 25, 2011

Chapakazi said:
hahaha....U seem to be off loading ur bag of rubbish once more! Nobody cares whether u r pro-science or other God knows wat group. Umeandika habari ndefu (pumba) wakati conclusion ni simple. As long as science does not have the answer to the critical question of life, it cannot criticises religious beliefs. By the way, religious beliefs are based on faith, which is an unmeasurable. Kwa hiyo hapo science haina chance ya kupima. Kwa hiyo kama inataka ku-challenge religion, itafute jibu la swali la life.
I know God exists from my personal experiences. Wewe endelea kutafuta evidence yako mwenyewe.
By the way, sidhani kama science ina-disprove existance of God. It only works to prove it.

You couldn't more right! Big up Mkuu!

Kiranga · Mar 25, 2011

Kama mungu angekuwa ana exist asingetegemea wanaadamu wasio na argument za kuweza kumthibitisha ili aweze kuthibitika.

That alone should be a red flag.

Mrdash1 · Mar 25, 2011

Kiranga said:
Whether the universe is finite or infinite, whether subatomic particles can be divided infinitely or not, any of these outcomes do not prove the existence of god. You are trying to connect two unrelated things.

Can you show me why do you think god exists?

Think about the opposite, can you show that God does not exist?

The main problem here is a failure of humans to remember, we are creatures of short memory and we have adapted to rely on documentation, the question is whose documentation?. Consider Adolf Hitler's Holocaust which occurred during WW2, some survivors are still alive, concentration camps are still standing and yet some people including politicians and academicians are in denial of its existence. What will happen hundreds of years from now when all survivors will be dead and camps demolished? Of course they will turn to science and historians, archeologist will excavate camp areas and will find no evidence for their existence and publish it in a would be very respected scientific journals and historians also will quote very prominent dead current holocaust deniers to prove that holocaust never existed.

The existence of God from the beginning is documented in books which are not popular at this time of human existence. So we turn to other sources including science (archeology, astronomy, evolution, big bang etc) and ancient manuscripts discovered by archeologists or stored somewhere. Interestingly, all archeological discoveries have not disapproved in what is documented in the Bible, instead it has strengthened its narratives. There is an archeological consensus that there was a Historical Jesus Christ, There was a Roman Empire ruling Jerusalem at his time, There was a Solomon Temple built in Jerusalem, There was King David in Israel, There was a Babylonian and Persian Empire, There was Daniel living in Persia (his grave is in today's Iran), There was a historical Queen Esther in Persia (her grave is in today's Iran), There was Jacob, Isaac and Abraham, Their bodies are buried in the cave of Patriachs in Israel. There are also Archeological evidence to support Noah's flood and the list goes on and on

It is a silly idea to draw a conclusion that God does not exist simply because science hasn't proven it while discrediting his own words carefully documented and passed down from generation to generation throughout human history.

Higash · Mar 25, 2011

mediaman said:
"Hapa Arusha KILA HOSPITALI IMEPOKEA WATU WA MAGONJWA YA PRESHA, KISUKARI, PUMU, N.K. AMBAO WALIKWENDA LOLIONDO "KUTIBIWA" MARADHI HAYO NA BAADA YA KUPATA "NAFUU" (PSYCHOLOGICAL) KWA KAMA WIKI MBILI TU WAMEANZA KUUMWA SERIOUSLY NA KURUDIA DAWA ZAO ZA HOSPITALI TENA.

Pili, mimi nikiwa mfanyakazi wa maabara ya hospitali ya MT Meru, sijaona hata mgonjwa mmoja wa ukimwi aliyepata "seroconversion" yaani kurudi "seronegative from serpos hawawezi kuwa seronegative kwani antibodies ni life long, tumieni pcr mkuu.

Nazjaz · Mar 25, 2011

tiba ya babu= mtihani wa Petro kutembea juu ya maji.

MaxShimba · Mar 25, 2011

Kiranga said:
Wanaokosa hoja utaona wanavyoanza kuporomosha mitusi na kejeli za jumla jumla. I will be better than that.

Obviously you do, why bother answering and mentioning that then? Halafu wewe ndiye spokesperson wa JF nzima?

I suspect you do not have what it takes to realize what is casuistry and cosmogony when it comes to issues like this.

Simpletons siku zote huona kila kitu simple, kwa hiyo sishangai.

Science has more answers than religion, but it is more humble in that it acknowledges the real challenges.

Religion does not have answers apart from explaining everything by some unrealistic supernatural forces, but claims to have the answer to everything. I will choose the former any day.

Faith = the absence of knowledge

Of course it is unmeasurable, how can you measure an unknown?

Sasa kama hakuna cha kupima utanishawishi vipi kama kuna kitu?

Science is doing this right now, and though it does not have full answers, it is doing a much better job than the mythology of religion.

Which personal experiences? be specific. Which personal experiences of yours that cannot be explained in any other way except by the existence of god ?

Ushaniambia dini/ mungu ni imani, na mimi sitaki habari za imani kwa sababu faith = lack of knowledge. I want to know. Kwa hiyo hapa hamna deal. Two different worlds.

Science iko based on proving the provable, ushasema mungu ni imani, science inataka knowledge na si imani. Sasa science ita prove mungu kivipi ?

Acha ushabiki weye. Science can't prove so many things. Kama unabisha,

PROVE TO ME THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST?

Kiranga · Mar 25, 2011

Mrdash1 said:
Think about the opposite, can you show that God does not exist?

You cannot prove a negative. Whatever proof I may claim to show that god does not exist, there is always the unknown. For this reason, between the one who say "God exists" (you) and the one who says "I do not know that god exists (which is not the same thing as saying "god does not exist) the burden of proof is always on the one saying "God exists.

Polisi wakija nyumbani kwako na kusema una madawa ya kulevya umeyaficha sehemu, na wewe ukasema huna madawa ya kulevya, mwenye kazi ya kuprove ni yule anayesema madawa ya kulevya yapo. Kamwe huwezi kuambiwa "prove kwamba madawa ya kulevya hayapo nyumbani mwako" kwa sababu hata ukiiturn nyumba yako inside out, always kuna chance umeyaweka chimbo ambalo halijafikiwa. Ndiyo maana logic ya "search warrant" ni kwamba law enforcement ifanye search na kutoa kithibitishi, wala hakuna logic ya kutaka mwenye nyumba a prove kwamba hana madawa ya kulevya.

Once again, the burden of proof is on you and all who say there is a god. Suppose I say that I am not necessarily saying there is no god, I simply want you to prove to me, how will you do that?

The main problem here is a failure of humans to remember, we are creatures of short memory and we have adapted to rely on documentation, the question is whose documentation?.

Absolutely, if you read Jewish mythology of course you will get a worldview that says the Jews are a chosen people, god gets angry, kills the innocent and such nonsense. I reject such outdated mythologies as gods word. If you study the scriptures you will see they are full of human error and contradictions.

Consider Adolf Hitler's Holocaust which occurred during WW2, some survivors are still alive, concentration camps are still standing and yet some people including politicians and academicians are in denial of its existence.

I am glad you mentioned this. What kind of god, especially if he is supposed to be an all loving, all powerful god, would allow a world to have a Holocaust like that? Where innocent children get burned for no reason? Was god not able to stop that? Or did he just not care?

What will happen hundreds of years from now when all survivors will be dead and camps demolished? Of course they will turn to science and historians, archeologist will excavate camp areas and will find no evidence for their existence and publish it in a would be very respected scientific journals and historians also will quote very prominent dead current holocaust deniers to prove that holocaust never existed.

Absolute hogwash, the evidence that document the Holocaust far outweigh any crackpot theorist who denies it. Quit reading too much into these crackpot theories.

The existence of God from the beginning is documented in books which are not popular at this time of human existence.

Can you be specific? Which books? Do you believe anything documented in books? Ptolemy documented in books that the universe is made of spheres holding the wanderers and the stars, but was he right? Aristotle documented that bodies of different masses fall down at different rates, but was he right? Bush and his administration documented that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, but was he right? Just because something is documented in books does not make it right. If that was the case, then what do you say about opposing views printed in different books? Scratch that book angle, it does not prove anything to be published, unpopularly or popularly, let's discuss the contents of these books.

So we turn to other sources including science (archeology, astronomy, evolution, big bang etc) and ancient manuscripts discovered by archeologists or stored somewhere. Interestingly, all archeological discoveries have not disapproved in what is documented in the Bible, instead it has strengthened its narratives.

I do not dispute that *some* of the bible is historical. I read all about the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hamadi Library and all the other Gnostic books that did not make it through Constantine's "Council of Nicea" where the current Christian bible was edited to man's desire (Constantine). Mpaka hapo utaona the scriptures are not godly, but man made.

The fact that the bible is historical does not prove god exists, if anything, it only enforces my earlier argument that the bible is borne out of Jewish mythology and history, and it is not god given.

There is an archeological consensus that there was a Historical Jesus Christ,

This does not prove there is a god

There was a Roman Empire ruling Jerusalem at his time,

This does not prove there is a god

There was a Solomon Temple built in Jerusalem,

This does not prove there is a god

There was King David in Israel, There was a Babylonian and Persian Empire, There was Daniel living in Persia (his grave is in today's Iran), There was a historical Queen Esther in Persia (her grave is in today's Iran), There was Jacob, Isaac and Abraham, Their bodies are buried in the cave of Patriachs in Israel. There are also Archeological evidence to support Noah's flood and the list goes on and on

None of this proves there is a god, my main issue.

Kama unataka vitabu tu, kuna vitabu vya ma Buddhist, just as ancient if not even more elegant than the Judeo-Christian tradition. These books say the opposite, that there is no god. So this doesn't impress anybody who understand the core issues here.

It is a silly idea to draw a conclusion that God does not exist simply because science hasn't proven it

Fine, I told you before. I don't know that god exists (which is not the same thing as saying god does not exist) now can you prove to me that god exists?

while discrediting his own words carefully documented and passed down from generation to generation throughout human history.

If we haven't established that god exists (up to now you haven't) how can you validate this unproven god by "his words"? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

Unataka ku prove kwamba mungu yupo, kabla hujaprove kwamba mungu yupo, unatumia maneno ya kitabu ambayo hayaprove chochote zaidi ya wafalme fulani waliishi muda fulani na watu fulani waliishi, halafu unasema hiyo ndiyo proof yako kwamba mungu ana exist?

Unaona fault ya logic yako?

Kiranga · Mar 25, 2011

1080 P said:
Acha ushabiki weye. Science can't prove so many things. Kama unabisha,

PROVE TO ME THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST?

Nishaeleza kuhusu the impossibility of proving a negative hapo juu, rejea. The question is not to prove that god does not exist, rather it is to prove that god exists. the burden of proof is on the one making a case, not the one disputing a case.

Unajua kusoma wewe? Sayansi yenyewe ndiyo itakuwa ya kwanza kukwambia kwamba haiwezi ku prove so many things, na mimi nishasema hilo hapo juu.

Sasa nani analeta ushabiki? Wewe unayekimbilia ku comment bila kusoma au mimi?

Tatizo ni kwamba, between the intelligent humility of science (frank admission that it does not have all the answers, which leads it to pursue answers) and the arrogant folly of religion (claiming that it has answers to all the big questions, therefore not bothering to look for the real answers) so many people who would prefer a sweet lie to the harsh truth would choose the sweet lie of religion to the harsh truth of science.

The sweet lie of religion says god will take care of you, just pray and submit to him. And at the end of it all he will be responsible, not you. He is like this big daddy in the clouds.

The bitter truth of science says we do not know that god exists, and we must take everything in our own hands, prayers, apart from the psychological effect (placebo, therapy) does not work.

Sasa binadamu kwa uvivu wetu tunataka kuchagua the easy way out, kila kitu tunamsingizia mungu asiyekuwepo.

Ndiyo maana unaona watu wanajazana kwenda Loliondo na wanatumia maelfu ya hela kutafuta supernatural miracles lakini husikii wakichangia research ya kupata madawa yanayoweza kutestiwa kwenye lab na kufanyiwa trials zilizokuwa peer reviewed.

Babu wa Loliondo "avuliwa nguo"

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