Kipi bora: Uhuru au Ukoloni??

[Kikojozi]

Ok mkuu me I have a question. Do you think that if our independence was delayed lets say like South Africa, would we be in a better economic state then we are now?

Yes I believe so. Look at how Zimbabwe was at the time of its independence in 1980 and compare it to say Tz and Kenya. Hata leo after the madness you still cant compare Harare with Dar es Salaam or Nairobi infrastructurewise.

And in the case of South Africa sure they have gotten ahead but at what price? The ones who are enjoying the fruits of the economy are the whites The few blacks who do enjoy it all are the ones who fought for independence but the mwananchi wa kawaida is left in the slums of Soweto. Isn't that what would have happened to us?

Kwanza mkuu, economic statistics are very tricky and they dont paint a true picture of reality on the ground. I agree, that though statistics show S.Africa to be Africa's largest economy, overwheling majority of the black population are living in abject poverty. The economic inequality there is frightening.

Lakini, a similar situation exists in Kenya and they have been independent since the 1960's. TZ is fast catching up. Kuna watu wanasema the entire economy is controlled by 8 families only. Isitoshe, inequalities exist in all societies.

Ukisoma vitabu vya Prof Thomas J. Stanley kama 'The millionaire next door' and 'The millionaire mind', anasema only 3% of Americans are millionaires and these are the guys who control the economy. The rest are just average Joes. The only difference is that African average Joe's go through hell but the first world Joe's at least have access to better social services and welfare. Inequality is universal.

 

[Smatta]

Like the article has stated, the problem is lack of skills rather than job opportunities, Kazi zipo lakini wananchi hawana ujuzi(educational skills) wa kuzifanya, thats where Africans from other countries come in to fill the vaccum.

kama mtu amekataa kwenda shule, then in future he starts complaining that he doesnt have a job, or the job he has isnt paying him enough to survive, do we blame the goverment ama the individual? The goverments work is to create jobs(ambapo zipo SA, lakini hamna locals wakuzifanya), and a condusive enviroment to invest, PERIOD.

Xenophobic cases are not specific to SA alone, in many African countries where majority of the people are not professionals, there is always a bad feeling towards foreigners especially Africans.. Lets take Southern Sudan as an example, Kenyans who had hosted them for years during their crisis now face a wave of attacks on their businesses and houses in Sudan, they claim that Kenyans (who me thinks are the majority of foreigners in S.SUDAN) are taking all their jobs and businesses of which is not true. Are the locas to blame fr the attacks, or is it the foreigner who has seen an opportunity and seized it, ama the goverment, which has not given 'incentives' or 'motivation' for the lazy lad to go to attend class??

 

[Smatta]

[/B]

Yes I believe so. Look at how Zimbabwe was at the time of its independence in 1980 and compare it to say Tz and Kenya. Hata leo after the madness you still cant compare Harare with Dar es Salaam or Nairobi infrastructurewise.



Kwanza mkuu, economic statistics are very tricky and they dont paint a true picture of reality on the ground. I agree, that though statistics show S.Africa to be Africa's largest economy, overwheling majority of the black population are living in abject poverty. The economic inequality there is frightening.

Lakini, a similar situation exists in Kenya and they have been independent since the 1960's. TZ is fast catching up. Kuna watu wanasema the entire economy is controlled by 8 families only. Isitoshe, inequalities exist in all societies.

Ukisoma vitabu vya Prof Thomas J. Stanley kama 'The millionaire next door' and 'The millionaire mind', anasema only 3% of Americans are millionaires and these are the guys who control the economy. The rest are just average Joes. The only difference is that African average Joe's go through hell but the first world Joe's at least have access to better social services and welfare. Inequality is universal.

Though you are right in the statements about the average joe in the first world compared to the average joe in my village, I HIGHLY DOUBT THE TRUTH IN THE STATEMENTS THAT I HAVE COLOURED. Have you ever been to Zimbabwe? am just asking?

 

[Kimweri]

They say two wrongs don't make it right!

Colonialism was WRONG.current performance of our local leaders is ALSO WRONG.so there is no good we can get out of these two.
trying to make colonialism work will not work!it is the past.telling the British to come back now won't work either.since we will demand 50-50 of everything and that wont happen!!why would they incur 50-50 situation,administrative overhead costs,and many other headaches that comes with administering 40million Africans while they can sit back in LONDON,form a so called mining company send them to africa take 97% and leave 3% as mrahaba?!in a current "business-world" the second option sounds viable.

What most of us did not understand was, colonialism was all Business,as long as we failed to be viable they left!those pre-independence riots,protests and movements made us a poor business encounter.so they designed a much silkier approach,with less bloodshed,the one that would take 50+ years for our thick brains to realize,50+ clean years of pure business heaven,pure profits!lol..,won't you love the master-planners?!
As it is useless to try and modify the past then the present and the future makes more sense rectifying.
talking present,our Local Leaders comes to place.the kikwete's and Mwinyi's,the DC's and RC's the REO's and RPC's!from the top leaders to the ground level leaders.
these can change-if what they are doing is wrong or not enough.
apparently they are acting like former colonial masters.distinguishing themselves with big cars(VX's) and fancy Houses..,

Problem is viongozi wetu are acting way too colonial!!look at the gaps between MASAKI and manzese..,barabara nzuri-masaki,umeme constant-masaki,maji 24/7-masaki.and so many others!those colonial goodies are all enjoyed by the choosen few.and bad enough is the gap between the 1960 3rd class-magomeni and (the 2009 3rd class)manzese is too huge..,manzese(2009-3rd class) no longer boast good infrastructures,taa za barabarani in the streets are gone!and so many other colonial goodies.so,IRONICALLY,it has gotten tougher for the third class and rosier for the first class.Kikwete rides in the same Benz as his European counterparts,wears the same $2000 suits while 3rd class Manzese residents wear Mitumbas(3rd hand clothes from Europe),and ride in a 3rd hand daladala that was banished from Japanese streets!

solving our problems starts with our leaders,from ground level.working way up.so far no one cares if anything runs well,or even runs at all.MONEY has become the GOD of our society,whom have it is the leader.leaders no longer boasts the qualities of leaders,anybody wit enough money and a loud mouth becomes one.

One bitter truth is,Tanzanians do not enjoy fruits of independents as much as their leaders do.Leaders should be ashamed of this.Treating their people with same acts colonial masters did 50 years ago.

So, do we need to go back 50 years ago to correct mistakes we have now?!that's a long call..,we don't have to..,the world have moved on,our masters have moved on,everyone else have moved on.our masters tactics have become so far sophisticated and efficient.to them past centuries colonialism is way too costly now!!

with modifications they have made they can still get what they want from us for the next 100 years without a sweat!

 

[Audax]

Ukoloni naona ndo unafaa,maana uhuru tulionao hata kuutumia hatujui,matokeo yake unatumiwa kufilisi nchi yetu na watu kujinufaisha.Na hivi watanzania mnasifika kwa ukarimu ndo kabisaa,kila kitu kinaharibika.

 

[Kikojozi]

Though you are right in the statements about the average joe in the first world compared to the average joe in my village, I HIGHLY DOUBT THE TRUTH IN THE STATEMENTS THAT I HAVE COLOURED. Have you ever been to Zimbabwe? am just asking?

No I've not been to Zimbabwe.

 

[Smatta]

No I've not been to Zimbabwe.

So your conclusion that the infrastructure in Harare is much better than Dar and Nrb is baseless and unfounded. Please withdraw your statement Kikojozi.

 

[Kikojozi]

They say two wrongs don't make it right!

Colonialism was WRONG.current performance of our local leaders is ALSO WRONG.so there is no good we can get out of these two.
trying to make colonialism work will not work!it is the past.telling the British to come back now won't work either.since we will demand 50-50 of everything and that wont happen!!why would they incur 50-50 situation,administrative overhead costs,and many other headaches that comes with administering 40million Africans while they can sit back in LONDON,form a so called mining company send them to africa take 97% and leave 3% as mrahaba?!in a current "business-world" the second option sounds viable.

What most of us did not understand was, colonialism was all Business,as long as we failed to be viable they left!those pre-independence riots,protests and movements made us a poor business encounter.so they designed a much silkier approach,with less bloodshed,the one that would take 50+ years for our thick brains to realize,50+ clean years of pure business heaven,pure profits!lol..,won't you love the master-planners?!
As it is useless to try and modify the past then the present and the future makes more sense rectifying.
talking present,our Local Leaders comes to place.the kikwete's and Mwinyi's,the DC's and RC's the REO's and RPC's!from the top leaders to the ground level leaders.
these can change-if what they are doing is wrong or not enough.
apparently they are acting like former colonial masters.distinguishing themselves with big cars(VX's) and fancy Houses..,

Problem is viongozi wetu are acting way too colonial!!look at the gaps between MASAKI and manzese..,barabara nzuri-masaki,umeme constant-masaki,maji 24/7-masaki.and so many others!those colonial goodies are all enjoyed by the choosen few.and bad enough is the gap between the 1960 3rd class-magomeni and (the 2009 3rd class)manzese is too huge..,manzese(2009-3rd class) no longer boast good infrastructures,taa za barabarani in the streets are gone!and so many other colonial goodies.so,IRONICALLY,it has gotten tougher for the third class and rosier for the first class.Kikwete rides in the same Benz as his European counterparts,wears the same $2000 suits while 3rd class Manzese residents wear Mitumbas(3rd hand clothes from Europe),and ride in a 3rd hand daladala that was banished from Japanese streets!

solving our problems starts with our leaders,from ground level.working way up.so far no one cares if anything runs well,or even runs at all.MONEY has become the GOD of our society,whom have it is the leader.leaders no longer boasts the qualities of leaders,anybody wit enough money and a loud mouth becomes one.

One bitter truth is,Tanzanians do not enjoy fruits of independents as much as their leaders do.Leaders should be ashamed of this.Treating their people with same acts colonial masters did 50 years ago.

So, do we need to go back 50 years ago to correct mistakes we have now?!that's a long call..,we don't have to..,the world have moved on,our masters have moved on,everyone else have moved on.our masters tactics have become so far sophisticated and efficient.to them past centuries colonialism is way too costly now!!

with modifications they have made they can still get what they want from us for the next 100 years without a sweat!

Mkuu I get you. Both colonialism and the so called independence are crap. Classical colonialism (as I like to call it) can never come back. What you have described at length is what most people call neo-colonialism.

Sasa, just for argument's sake, we are trying to decide which is less worse between colonialism and freedom/independence. I think colonialism is less worse. What's your opinion and why?

Afu refering to the text I've bold, I think its we the people who have to change. Then we can hold our leaders accountable. Its highly unlikely leaders will ever change by themselves. Ask yourself, is it possible 200 guys can take 40 million SANE people where they don't want to go?

 

[Kikojozi]

So your conclusion that the infrastructure in Harare is much better than Dar and Nrb is baseless and unfounded. Please withdraw your statement Kikojozi.

I've never been to Kibera. But I'm sure it's infrastructure is worse than that of Kimara.

C'mon Smatta, this is too easy. Gimme a real challenge.

 

[Smatta]

I've never been to Kibera. But I'm sure it's infrastructure is worse than that of Kimara.

C'mon Smatta, this is too easy. Gimme a real challenge.

hehehe... umeniweza hapo.. lakini you cant compare Nairobi or Dar to Harare(if you have visited the place).. knameen?

 

[Kimweri]

Mkuu I get you. Both colonialism and the so called independence are crap. Classical colonialism (as I like to call it) can never come back. What you have described at length is what most people call neo-colonialism.

Sasa, just for argument's sake, we are trying to decide which is less worse between colonialism and freedom/independence. I think colonialism is less worse. What's your opinion and why?

I always believe discussing the blaming the past to present problems never solve future problems!
to me colonialism was never a better option back then..,then it probably isn't a better option now..
lets look at ASIA!we were colonised in the same time frames..,but look at them now..,soon watakuja kutu-colonise na wao.colonialism,neo-colonialism,or whatever..,the bigger problem is US!
and as u said "Both colonialism and the so called independence are crap"
which one should we rather FIX?!i think fixing our so called "independence" is a more viable option

Afu refering to the text I've bold, I think its we the people who have to change. Then we can hold our leaders accountable. Its highly unlikely leaders will ever change by themselves. Ask yourself, is it possible 200 guys can take 40 million SANE people where they don't want to go?

When i say leadership from ground level i meant the very same thing you said.FIXING ourselves.everyone is a leader of his own self-own establishment.
Being a bad parent,a Bad investment-partner,a bad team leader,a bad manager,a bad police officer..,is what is failing us.we are extremely poor in Leadership ourselves,we always sit back and wait for the guy at the top to do something.I BELIEVE a school lacking tables in SUMBAWANGA is definitely not Kikwete's problem to wory about since there are 100's of people who could have solved the problem before it reaches His table..,BUT from the headmaster to the REO..,they always expect someone to come and solve their problems.

coming to higher leadership one particular problem always amazes me!!our leader always call for help!why the hell did they seek for those positions if they can't fix nothing?!everyday they travel overseas looking for help,be it funding or donation this is very sick!it doesn't make sense for a president too travel all the way to the US to seek for help to fight malaria while he has doctors and nurses paid like 3rd rate messengers(no disrespect to messengers)!
until we come to understand the core of our problems we will always find something/someone to blame our problems to.
we need a very sharp change in attitudes from ground level up to the TOP