Kipi bora: Uhuru au Ukoloni??

Kikojozi said:

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Freedom? What freedom?? How can you lose something you never had? What we need to lose are the delusions of freedom.



What difference will it make if 40 beggar nations beg as a group rather than as individuals? If anything, collective begging will work against us.

We need to stop begging and start making things.

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About my loss of freedom i know from living in his country that he's not good towards me as a blcak man, and indirectly he incites racism, example i live in england there is a man called Abu Hamza who was imprisoned for crimes of inciting hatred. Yet at the same a man called Nicky Griffins leader of BNP a party which openly does not like anything that is not white. also responsible for many racial conflicts in the counrty still walks free i suppose you're going to say he doesnot incite hatred he's fighting for the right of his land. if thats the case i do not want him in my either especially as a leader.

stop thinking like a house slave because your being fed by the master doing little, the farm slave has to work like a donkey and your saying but master Smith feeds you too.

MwanaFalsafa1 said:

I'm sorry mkuu just a question. Were you present during the time of colonization so that you can tell us who were not there more about those good days? Because some of us seem just to hear about the slave trade, the torture and all the horrific sides of it. Maybe ungetu saidia kutuambia how good they were so we can start cursing the struggle for independence right now.

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Mkuu,

No I wasn't there. I've also read about it just like you. What I know is that that era had its challenges. The present post independent era has also got its challenges.

At the time, "independence" was a dream, a hope, an aspiration and a promise for prosperity. 50 years on, the concept of "independence" appears to be a hoax. The state of our nation at independence was much better than it is now. Quality of life, life expectancy, per capita incomes, social services, balance of trade and all other parameters you can think of were all favourable compared to today. Moreso for the majority rural folk.

Now you tell me. Why are our brothers and sisters risking life and limb in the high seas to cross into Europe, the very land where our tormentors, oppressors, torturers and 'crackers' call home? Is this why our forefathers and foremothers fought for independence? Wouldn't it be easier to simply ask them (colonialists) to come back?

Smatta said:

It seems some of us were really enjoying the colonial days thats why they want them back... According to me the only people who saw the benefits of the colonial masters were the chiefs (and their relatives) and the home guards, the rest of us were cursing the white man for taking our land and our children to go fight in a far away land.

To quote Mwana FA, mtuambie how good the colonial days were so that we can start cursing the struggle for independence right now.

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You never know Smatta maybe we have descendants of that group you mention that's why they want it back. After all they haven't said they want it back for the good of our people as a whole, maybe they want it back for their own good. After all isn't that the same problem we face now? A few of our own who are ready to sacrifice the good of the whole country just to benefit a few?

Juma Contena said:

About my loss of freedom i know from living in his country that he's not good towards me as a blcak man, and indirectly he incites racism, example i live in england there is a man called Abu Hamza who was imprisoned for crimes of inciting hatred. Yet at the same a man called Nicky Griffins leader of BNP a party which openly does not like anything that is not white. also responsible for many racial conflicts in the counrty still walks free i suppose you're going to say he doesnot incite hatred he's fighting for the right of his land. if thats the case i do not want him in my either especially as a leader.

stop thinking like a house slave because your being fed by the master doing little, the farm slave has to work like a donkey and your saying but master Smith feeds you too.

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I respect you bruh, I like your school of thought.. we are on the same page on this issue.

Kikojozi said:

Mkuu,

No I wasn't there. I've also read about it just like you. What I know is that that era had its challenges. The present post independent era has also got its challenges.

At the time, "independence" was a dream, a hope, an aspiration and a promise for prosperity. 50 years on, the concept of "independence" appears to be a hoax. The state of our nation at independence was much better than it is now. Quality of life, life expectancy, per capita incomes, social services, balance of trade and all other parameters you can think of were all favourable compared to today. Moreso for the majority rural folk.

Now you tell me. Why are our brothers and sisters risking life and limb in the high seas to cross into Europe, the very land where our tormentors, oppressors, torturers and 'crackers' call home? Is this why our forefathers and foremothers fought for independence? Wouldn't it be easier to simply ask them (colonialists) to come back?

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So who did it benefit? The few or all of us? You talk about quality of life, were our forefathers and foremothers enjoying that quality of life? You talk about life expectancy, did the young men and young women who died from being slave benefit from the life expectancy? You talk about per capita so you mean to tell me our forefathers who were paying being taxes and selling their produce at a give away price enjoyed that pa capita? Social services, how many benefited from it? You talk about balance of trade of coarse it would be balanced cause they were stilling resources from us and using money which was ours in the first place.

Those bros and sis you say are risk their lives to go overseas have the same mentality as some people here have which is that they would rather be second rate citizens in another man's country. There are legal way to go there they don't have to risk their lives to do so.

Smatta said:

It seems some of us were really enjoying the colonial days thats why they want them back... According to me the only people who saw the benefits of the colonial masters were the chiefs (and their relatives) and the home guards, the rest of us were cursing the white man for taking our land and our children to go fight in a far away land.

To quote Mwana FA, mtuambie how good the colonial days were so that we can start cursing the struggle for independence right now.

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To start with, we were educated in good schools, colleges and universities with all amenities. After that, we were given jobs. You just dont get that nowdays.

Kikojozi said:

To start with, we were educated in good schools, colleges and universities with all amenities. After that, we were given jobs. You just dont get that nowdays.

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How many benefited from those things mkuu? They created a hallucination and you fell for it. For your information the picked a few people from the population and gave them those things so that they can look good. Do you really believe that it is a guaranteed you would have access to those things?

MwanaFalsafa1 said:

So who did it benefit? The few or all of us? You talk about quality of life, were our forefathers and foremothers enjoying that quality of life? You talk about life expectancy, did the young men and young women who died from being slave benefit from the life expectancy? You talk about per capita so you mean to tell me our forefathers who were paying being taxes and selling their produce at a give away price enjoyed that pa capita? Social services, how many benefited from it? You talk about balance of trade of coarse it would be balanced cause they were stilling resources from us and using money which was ours in the first place.

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Like I said, the colonial era had its challenges, and so do our present times. Colonialism didn't have to pretend that things would be peachy. "Independence" promised to be rosy but 50 years on it has delivered nothing. It has even reversed the few good things we inherited from classical colonialism.

Those bros and sis you say are risk their lives to go overseas have the same mentality as some people here have which is that they would rather be second rate citizens in another man's country. There are legal way to go there they don't have to risk their lives to do so.

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This kind of strikes a chord with what Queen Beatrix of France said shortly before the French revolution upon being told that the people had no food. "What??? They have no bread? Let them eat cake.". Ofcourse she was beheaded for her aloofness.

Mkuu you really have no idea.

Kikojozi said:

To start with, we were educated in good schools, colleges and universities with all amenities. After that, we were given jobs. You just dont get that nowdays.

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Thats enuf reason according to you to bring them crackers back.. so that we can go to free schools and get jobs without breaking a sweat... you so wrong bro, so wrong it hurts,.

MwanaFalsafa1 said:

How many benefited from those things mkuu? They created a hallucination and you fell for it. For your information the picked a few people from the population and gave them those things so that they can look good. Do you really believe that it is a guaranteed you would have access to those things?

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Mkuu,

If I get you correctly, you are saying that colonialism is bad. That much I agree with you. What you further imply is that colonialism belongs to the past and that we are now free/independent and living in better times. Now this I dont agree with you.

What I'm saying is that we are not free/independent. Not by a long shot. What has changed is that we are now under a new form of colonialism also known as neo-colonialism. Both forms, classical and neo are bad. To me the debate is which one is worse; classical or neo colonialism? I think neo-colonialism is worse. Kama tulikua tunakaangwa na mafuta ya alizeti, sasa tunakaangwa na mafuta yetu wenyewe. Lakini kukaangwa kuko palepale.

What I think would be helpful is if you and your colleagues could defend your points by elucidating how the present day (which you call freedom/independence and I call neo-colonialism) is better than classical colonialism rather than simply harping on how colonialism was bad.

Smatta said:

Thats enuf reason according to you to bring them crackers back.. so that we can go to free schools and get jobs without breaking a sweat... you so wrong bro, so wrong it hurts,.

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The crackers brought us good doggy biscuits because we are starving. Our tribal warlords brought us poisoned maize (bought with our own tax money). Which would you eat??

Kikojozi said:

Mkuu,

If I get you correctly, you are saying that colonialism is bad. That much I agree with you. What you further imply is that colonialism belongs to the past and that we are now free/independent and living in better times. Now this I dont agree with you.

What I'm saying is that we are not free/independent. Not by a long shot. What has changed is that we are now under a new form of colonialism also known as neo-colonialism. Both forms, classical and neo are bad. To me the debate is which one is worse; classical or neo colonialism? I think neo-colonialism is worse. Kama tulikua tunakaangwa na mafuta ya alizeti, sasa tunakaangwa na mafuta yetu wenyewe. Lakini kukaangwa kuko palepale.

What I think would be helpful is if you and your colleagues could defend your points by elucidating how the present day (which you call freedom/independence and I call neo-colonialism) is better than classical colonialism rather than simply harping on how colonialism was bad.

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Ok mkuu I'm getting your comparison but if they are all bad why not suggest a way we can rid of neocolonialism instead of going back to the classic colonialism? You mean to say now there is really no better way for us than to go back to classic colonialism? We should use our time and efforts to move forward and get rid of all forms of colonialism and not ponder of which one is better or worse than the other.

MwanaFalsafa1 said:

Ok mkuu I'm getting your comparison but if they are all bad why not suggest a way we can rid of neocolonialism instead of going back to the classic colonialism? You mean to say now there is really no better way for us than to go back to classic colonialism? We should use our time and efforts to move forward and get rid of all forms of colonialism and not ponder of which one is better or worse than the other.

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Mkuu,

This thread required us to do exactly that: ponder which of the two is better or worse.

If you start one on how we can move forward, I will be the first one to meet you there. No, I dont want us to go back to classical colonialism, I just think its better than neo-colonialism.

Like you, I want Africa to be the Phoenix that will rise from the ashes. I want Africa to be a superpower. But we have to be realistic. Denial and wishful thinking wont get us there.

Until we meet in that thread on moving forward, peace.

MwanaFalsafa1 said:

Ok mkuu I'm getting your comparison but if they are all bad why not suggest a way we can rid of neocolonialism instead of going back to the classic colonialism? You mean to say now there is really no better way for us than to go back to classic colonialism? We should use our time and efforts to move forward and get rid of all forms of colonialism and not ponder of which one is better or worse than the other.

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mi nadhani malalamiko yake(kikojozi) yana angalia situation ambayo iko nchini za africa at the moment. ana compare na what it was like during colonial times, based on what mzungu built on that time. wakati huo huo sidhani kama anelewa vizuri vingi vilivyokuwepo at the time vilikuwa ni kwa sababu yao wenyewe colonial masters and not for the indiginous. only now we use them because we gained our independence and mzungu ayupo tena.

kitu cha pili ana angalia movement ambayo ipo slow Africa, lakini aangali what role the devil plays to hinder the african movement. example tunafahamu ya kuwa madini ya mawe yana thamani sana, lakini je? if we were to process and use them ourselves, i think it will reflect the value of our economies, not many are going to afford items of gold, ruby, tanzanite, diamonds etc for prices of over $1000, that is the fact because not that many people have money, therefore the value of this items reflect our society. however on the other hand if the same rocks reach the west they become items of money, some can spend up to millions on rocks. now when the devils comes he buys them for the value he thinks it reflects in our society cheap. yet he knows the same commodities gives about 9 times the profit where he takes them . and when africans want to trade directly with the dealers in the west the IMF sets us limits on what we can trade and what we cant trade, but the same IMF allows the devil to deal directly with us without following the rules, giving him the chance to rob us without a gun. they do this in all sectors of our assets farming, fishing etc, etc ,etc so where are we going to get the money to develop if the devil ranks us as being of unequal on every thing.

plus we have other problems that we have created ourselves such as divisions, selfishness, not being patriots to our countries especilally our leaders. all these, works to the advantage of the devil. we need to stop and be realistic to ourselves and come up with plans that do not include the devil in anyway, let him come to trade if wants to trade but lets not be desparate with deals that make no sense at all. we have land for food, we have people to make a society, we have scholars to teach, so why do we need colonial masters. its our behaviour and the thinking that has to change especially the idea that other races are better than us what a bunkum ideology.

Kisiwa cha Mayotte, kuchagua kuendelea kuwa chini ya Ufaransa kunaonekana ni nafuu kwao. Maana wataendelea kuwa part of europe n Africa. Pia wataendelea kuwa na amani ya uhakika.

Suala hili ukimuuliza Mtanganyika ni sawa na kumuuliza Mbwa wa kijijini, "kufugwa na kuwa huru kipi bora."

Kwa ndugu zangu wa Zanzibar, ilo halina mjadara, leo hii muungano ukivunjika tu, ni kiasi cha saa moja wamejiunga na Oman.

Uhuru una raha yake kama raiya watakuwa huru, kuchaguwa viongozi wamtakaye, kama watapata mahitaji yao yote ya msingi, kama kutakuwa na haki sawa kwa wote.

Lakini uhuru huu una raha gani kama raiya hana raha nao. (Raiya kwa maana ya Makabwela au Walalahoi).

Jafar said:

Sio tu hivyo, kwenye hiki kisiwa third to fourth generations have been under France. I also roughly estimate about 70% are unemployed. They 100% depends everything from France (from drinking water to chicken to tomatoes to beer to sea fish etc). Infact I dont have the exact number but many of them have France Passport.

For sure they will 100% vote to belong to France milele amina.

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Mkuu sasa cha ajabu nini ? bora na sisi tuwarudishe Waingereza kwani wao walichukua 90% na kuacha 10% na vitu vilionekena walau
sasa hivi 100% yote inabaki na hamna linalofanyika
Sasa hivi tuwaambie 50% 50% muone mambo yatakuwaje

Mkora said:

Mkuu sasa cha ajabu nini ? bora na sisi tuwarudishe Waingereza kwani wao walichukua 90% na kuacha 10% na vitu vilionekena walau
sasa hivi 100% yote inabaki na hamna linalofanyika
Sasa hivi tuwaambie 50% 50% muone mambo yatakuwaje

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Si muende huko kwao waka watawale huko huko? Nendeni sehemu kama Marekani mka fanyiwe kama African Americans huko mna faidi na vya nje. Si ndiyvyo mnavyo taka? Easy solution.......nendeni mkatawaliwe......sisi tuacheni tuendelee na tabu zetu.

Felister said:

Uhuru wa kweli unaambatana na responsibility pamoja na accountability kama unaona hutoweza hayo kwaajili ya wellbeing yako ni bora kuwa chini ya utawala wa hao ambao watakuwa responsible na accountable kwako. Kwa haraka haraka watu wengi hawajui kusoma wala kuandika inamaana hawana knowledge ya dunia inayotawala sasa so uhuru kwao utakuwa wa bendera lakini watakuwa tegemezi kwa watu wenye elimu ya dunia inayotawala either minority within the country or the supper power France through a remote control ya vibaraka watakao waweka kwa faida yao. Ask your self how much of the value is added to Tanzania's people welfare as compared to what was the wellbeing before independence and assuming we could have been under colonial powers how life could have been better or worse as compared to what we now have ? Then any realistic answer you would come up with will tell you wether it is worty to be Independent or continued to be under castodianship of the colonial masters.

The conclusion on my side is if you are not responsible and accountable to your well being then it better to remain under somebody who can be responsible and accountable for you than to be free; and this is the challenge of freedom. Many like freedom yes but what if you would be freed and do not add value to your freedom? Its not the title that lead its the capacity to influence change to the direction you want that is why we have leaders and managers.

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We all like to add value to our freedom,but how do we do it in the situation like this? No accoutable and responsible leaders. Whoever goes to power has a hidden agenda. I do agree that most of Tanzanian's are still ignorant but who is going to bring us out it? with such kind of poor governanceand corrupt leaders, who goes to power to serve himself and those who are close to him (inner circle).
That is why most of the Tanzanian's are now feeling that colonial era was better than the current so called freedom.

KAHINDA said:

We all like to add value to our freedom,but how do we do it in the situation like this? No accoutable and responsible leaders. Whoever goes to power has a hidden agenda. I do agree that most of Tanzanian's are still ignorant but who is going to bring us out it? with such kind of poor governanceand corrupt leaders, who goes to power to serve himself and those who are close to him (inner circle).
That is why most of the Tanzanian's are now feeling that colonial era was better than the current so called freedom.

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If the feeling is that colonialism was better why don't all those who feel that way just take up citizenry in the countries of the former colonialists? Wouldn't that be much easier? Because if you are o.k. with being colonized directly by another country then you will surely be o.k. with being a citizen of their countries.

MwanaFalsafa1 said:

If the feeling is that colonialism was better why don't all those who feel that way just take up citizenry in the countries of the former colonialists? Wouldn't that be much easier? Because if you are o.k. with being colonized directly by another country then you will surely be o.k. with being a citizen of their countries.

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Mkuu why should they do so while they have their country,which is being embezzled by greedy leaders.
Can you give just one example that we may be proud of and say that we are free???. Mkuu nawasilisha with respect.