Hatimaye Mkapa aikana Kiwira

Mlenge said:

"When you hear someone saying 'good question' it means he does not have an answer" -- G. U.

Jasusi, ikiwa mkapa ana share au hana ni irrelevant, swali, la kifalsafa, ni kwa nini iwe nongwa Mkapa kuwa na hisa Kiwira? Once we are done with that, we can discuss whether he indeed have hisa or not.

Technically, Benjamin Mkapa anaweza asiwe na hisa Kiwira, ila inawezekana akawa na kampuni / share kwenye kampuni inayomiliki Kiwira. Still the main thing is, what's wrong kwa Mkapa kuwa na hisa Kiwira?

Mlenge

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Nimeikubali hiyo "technically" yako. Sasa kwa kukujibu juu ya what's wrong for Mkapa kuwa na hisa katika Kiwira ni suala linalohusu upatikanaji wa hisa hizo. Je, hisa hizo zilikuwa available to Jasusi and Mlenge, au alitumia cheo chake kama rais wa nchi kuzipata? Na kama alitumia cheo chake basi that is what's wrong.

Jasusi said:

Nimeikubali hiyo "technically" yako. Sasa kwa kukujibu juu ya what's wrong for Mkapa kuwa na hisa katika Kiwira ni suala linalohusu upatikanaji wa hisa hizo. Je, hisa hizo zilikuwa available to Jasusi and Mlenge, au alitumia cheo chake kama rais wa nchi kuzipata? Na kama alitumia cheo chake basi that is what's wrong.

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Jasusi,

1. Hisa hizo, walau kinadharia, zilikuwa bayana kwako na kwangu kuzinunua kama tungetaka, au tungekuwa na uwezo.
2. Pana ushahidi iwapo alitumia madaraka yake kujipatia Kiwira? Jibu ni hapana. "ushahidi" unaotolewa ni kwamba "ana hisa" "alizipata akiwa rais" "kwa hiyo atakuwa alitumia madaraka yake vibaya". Mtu akiwa rais, bado ni raia wa Tanzania, mwenye haki zinazolindwa na katiba, ikiwemo kununua hisa.

Shida yangu mimi kubwa hapa, ni kwamba, mnamsakama Mkapa kwa vile yeye ana ngozi nyeusi. Ingekuwa Kiwira imechukuliwa na mzungu au mhindi, au mtu yeyote ngozi nyeupe, asingesema mtu kitu hapa.

Kinachowauma siyo kwamba Kiwira imeondoka mikononi mwa umma, bali ni kwamba imechukuliwa na mtu ngozi nyeusi mwenzetu, tena mtu huyo ni Mtanzania!

Tanzania ilikuwa na migodi mingapi, Kiwira type? Katika hiyo migodi, mingapi mnapigia kelele kuhusiana na hisa zake?

Mlenge

Mlenge said:

Jasusi,

1. Hisa hizo, walau kinadharia, zilikuwa bayana kwako na kwangu kuzinunua kama tungetaka, au tungekuwa na uwezo.
2. Pana ushahidi iwapo alitumia madaraka yake kujipatia Kiwira? Jibu ni hapana. "ushahidi" unaotolewa ni kwamba "ana hisa" "alizipata akiwa rais" "kwa hiyo atakuwa alitumia madaraka yake vibaya". Mtu akiwa rais, bado ni raia wa Tanzania, mwenye haki zinazolindwa na katiba, ikiwemo kununua hisa.

Shida yangu mimi kubwa hapa, ni kwamba, mnamsakama Mkapa kwa vile yeye ana ngozi nyeusi. Ingekuwa Kiwira imechukuliwa na mzungu au mhindi, au mtu yeyote ngozi nyeupe, asingesema mtu kitu hapa.

Kinachowauma siyo kwamba Kiwira imeondoka mikononi mwa umma, bali ni kwamba imechukuliwa na mtu ngozi nyeusi mwenzetu, tena mtu huyo ni Mtanzania!

Tanzania ilikuwa na migodi mingapi, Kiwira type? Katika hiyo migodi, mingapi mnapigia kelele kuhusiana na hisa zake?

Mlenge

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Hiyo kali nadhani umepitiwa kidogo ....otherwise substantiate hizo allegation za rangi ya Mkapa na Utanzania wake

Wozoza said:

Hiyo kali nadhani umepitiwa kidogo ....otherwise substantiate hizo allegation za rangi ya Mkapa na Utanzania wake

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Niambie wewe sababu ikiwa si hiyo. Migodi ilikuwa mingapi, na mingapi leo inapigiwa kelele?

Ni sawa na leo hii watu wamuone mtu ngozi nyeusi anamiliki 'skyscraper' Kariakoo au posta, na mtu huyo ni Mmatumbi mwenzetu, ona jinsi PCB, PCM, HGE, majungu na masufuria yatakavyomuandama. Lakini akiwa ana DNA japo kidogo za nje, roho zetu kwatu! Akiwa mswahili mwenzetu roho za kwanini na kwinini!


Mwacheni mzee wa watu ale matunda ya jasho lake. Tukitaka kufukunyua ya mgodi wa Kiwira, tufanye hivyo na kwa migodi na mali nyingine zilizokuwa za umma. Tuwe systematic.

Nani wa kuamini hayoooooooooooooooo

Mlenge said:

Jasusi,

1. Hisa hizo, walau kinadharia, zilikuwa bayana kwako na kwangu kuzinunua kama tungetaka, au tungekuwa na uwezo.
2. Pana ushahidi iwapo alitumia madaraka yake kujipatia Kiwira? Jibu ni hapana. "ushahidi" unaotolewa ni kwamba "ana hisa" "alizipata akiwa rais" "kwa hiyo atakuwa alitumia madaraka yake vibaya". Mtu akiwa rais, bado ni raia wa Tanzania, mwenye haki zinazolindwa na katiba, ikiwemo kununua hisa.

Shida yangu mimi kubwa hapa, ni kwamba, mnamsakama Mkapa kwa vile yeye ana ngozi nyeusi. Ingekuwa Kiwira imechukuliwa na mzungu au mhindi, au mtu yeyote ngozi nyeupe, asingesema mtu kitu hapa.

Kinachowauma siyo kwamba Kiwira imeondoka mikononi mwa umma, bali ni kwamba imechukuliwa na mtu ngozi nyeusi mwenzetu, tena mtu huyo ni Mtanzania!

Tanzania ilikuwa na migodi mingapi, Kiwira type? Katika hiyo migodi, mingapi mnapigia kelele kuhusiana na hisa zake?

Mlenge

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Mlenge,
Kuna nadharia na hali halisi. Granted, kinadharia wewe na mimi tungeweza kuzinunua hizo hisa, lakini unasahau kwamba Mkapa alikuwa Ikulu. All he had to do was call Yona na kusema "tuyachukue yale madudu ya Kawira." Kazi kwisha. Hilo la kusema rangi ni assumption on your part.
Kama ungenifahamu ungejua jinsi nilivyokasirika alivyonyimwa Mengi Kilimanjaro na badala yake kupewa Mwarabu. Na aliyefanya hilo ni Mkapa.
Ungenifahamu ungejua ninavyokasirika Kikwete akienda kusifia shamba la mzungu kutoka Holland ambaye ameamua kununua na kuchinja ng'ombe na kuku kwa mauzo ya nje il hali biashara hiyo ingefanywa na Mswahili mwenzetu faida ingeishia Tanzania. Ungenifahamu ungejua ninavyokasirika kuwa Sinclair ndiye anayehodhi leseni za uchimbaji madini Tanzania na wala si serikali ya Tanzania au Mswahili mwenzetu. Kwa hiyo next time kabla hujafanya assumption, fanya home work kidogo kujua utashi wa wenzako.

Jasusi said:

Mlenge,
Kuna nadharia na hali halisi. Granted, kinadharia wewe na mimi tungeweza kuzinunua hizo hisa, lakini unasahau kwamba Mkapa alikuwa Ikulu. All he had to do was call Yona na kusema "tuyachukue yale madudu ya Kawira." Kazi kwisha. Hilo la kusema rangi ni assumption on your part.
Kama ungenifahamu ungejua jinsi nilivyokasirika alivyonyimwa Mengi Kilimanjaro na badala yake kupewa Mwarabu. Na aliyefanya hilo ni Mkapa.
Ungenifahamu ungejua ninavyokasirika Kikwete akienda kusifia shamba la mzungu kutoka Holland ambaye ameamua kununua na kuchinja ng'ombe na kuku kwa mauzo ya nje il hali biashara hiyo ingefanywa na Mswahili mwenzetu faida ingeishia Tanzania. Ungenifahamu ungejua ninavyokasirika kuwa Sinclair ndiye anayehodhi leseni za uchimbaji madini Tanzania na wala si serikali ya Tanzania au Mswahili mwenzetu. Kwa hiyo next time kabla hujafanya assumption, fanya home work kidogo kujua utashi wa wenzako.

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Jasusi,
Did he do that? Was any Tanzanian denied ownership because Mkapa bid for Kiwira?

What were the alternatives: if Mkapa didn't take Kiwira, if at all he did, what are the chances it would have gone to non-ngozi nyeusi?

Why don't we see JF threads, pinpointing condemnation of a particular non-ngozi nyeusi owner of former-government property?

Empirical evidence suggests that, in absence of other evidence, or even stern claims that, Mkapa indeed used his position in power to get Kiwira, it would be safe to take it that it is because of the citizenship of Mkapa that all the venom is directed to him only, in a country with hundreds privatized parastatals.

Mlenge

Mlenge said:

Jasusi,
Did he do that? Was any Tanzanian denied ownership because Mkapa bid for Kiwira?

What were the alternatives: if Mkapa didn't take Kiwira, if at all he did, what are the chances it would have gone to non-ngozi nyeusi?

Why don't we see JF threads, pinpointing condemnation of a particular non-ngozi nyeusi owner of former-government property?

Empirical evidence suggests that, in absence of other evidence, or even stern claims that, Mkapa indeed used his position in power to get Kiwira, it would be safe to take it that it is because of the color of Mkapa that all the venom is directed to him only, in a country with hundreds privatized parastatals.

Mlenge

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Mlenge,
May I once again disagree with you that the venom vented toward Mkapa on the Kiwira issue has something to do with his colour. Mkapa was our President, and without transparency in the way he obtained Kiwira, or his shares in the company, we are compelled to feel that we were raped, pardon the strong jargon, by a leader we had chosen to protect our interests. Here in JF we have condemned wholesale privatization or foreignization of our parastatals. I do not think there have been many members who cried "hossana, aleluia" when it was announced that a white man or an indian man, or an arab man was given a former parastatal to run. We have been decrying the absence from the CCM government of policies to enable fellow Tanzanians to acquirea former parastatal or government owned enterprise. You have noticed that CCM is very unpopular here, and this is one of the reasons. And the major culprit in making sure the Kaburus, the whites, got the lion's share of our enterprises is Mkapa himself. I once asked him why he does not encourage African ownership of our parastatels and he answered me that "ndio walioua mashirika ya umma." That was his position.

Jasusi,

Were the other parastatals sold with transparency? I would say yes. Much as I do not agree with most things Mkapa did in his administration, there were still, albeit 'token', advertisements of the parastatals to be sold. Did anyone apply to have those parastatals, particularly Kiwira, and failed because Mkapa had interest in it?

Would it make any difference were it not Mkapa? I would say yes. Because 1/400 parastatals goes to someone who decided to use his constitutional rights, then all hell break loose.

I saw a thread here wanting to take back Kiwira, guess what? because it is supposedly owned by Mswahili mwenzetu.

To be fair, let us, parallel to Kiwira saga, take a parastatal or two that we wish to take back, but those that were sold to non-ngozi nyeusi.

Otherwise, the idea that because Mkapa was president then he could not own hisa, is a flawed philosophy, at least legally, because he has got rights to own property!

That other mali ya umma went out the way we did not like, may not mean that in particular case of Kiwira, Mkapa bent the rules to obtain the shares. Kwa mtazamo wangu, Mkapa alikuwa ana tatizo kama la Kikwete la kupenda kusifiwa nje ya nchi, hasa na watu sio-ngozi nyeusi. Kwa hiyo walipotaka mali ya taifa, aliwagaia, lakini pia akitoa fursa sawa kwa Watanzania kuzimiliki, walau kwa mujibu wa hotuba moja aliyotoa.

The main questions from you are:
1. Did Mkapa use use madaraka aliyonayo kujipatia Kiwira? I'd say, no evidence. At least kwenye Kilimanjaro hoteli palijitokeza Mtanzania aliyelalamikia "mchezo mchafu" kuzuia jitihada zake za kuchukua mali ile. Nani aliyenyimwa taarifa au fursa za kujipatia Kiwira?
2. Ni sawa kwa Mkapa kuwa na hisa Kiwira, wakati ubinafsishaji wa mashirika ulikuwa ujuha mtupu? Nasema ni sawa ikiwa kanuni na taratibu zilifuatwa kujipatia Kiwira.

Swali langu, kwa nini Mkapa mnamwandama peke yake, miongoni mwa waliojipatia mali ya Tanzania? Jibu la Jasusi ni kwamba kwa vile Mkapa alikuwa madarakani, huenda alitumia madaraka yake vibaya. Nionavyo hizi ni hisia ambazo hazina uthibitisho. Kiwira ilibinafsishwa kama mashirika yale mengine. Sisemi kwamba ubinasfishwaji ulifanyika vizuri kwa mashirika yote, au kwamba ulikuwa unatekelezwa kisahihi, (walifanya ugenisishaji), lakini kwa case ya Kiwira, pasipokuwa na ushahidi, au basi hata madai ya kuwekewa kauzibe yasiyo na ushahidi, inabakia tu kwamba sisi Waswahili hatupendi 'maendeleo' ya ngozi nyeusi mwenzetu.

Mlenge

Huyu ni mtu asiyeweza kutakasika hata kwa sabuni gani!

Mlenge,
At least let me give you credit for conducting a civil debate. I like that.

Hivi kuku aweza kulikana yai lake ati kwa vile limekuwa viza! ?

Mlenge anadhihirisha 'ujuha' unaotokana na arrogance ya kujifanya mjuaji. Hata kama Mkapa alikuwa na haki kama Mtanzania mwingine kuweza kujimilikisha Kiwira, kwa kuwa alikuwa Rais wa nchi, moja kwa moja kitendo hicho kinakuwa ni unethical. Kama ni suala la ngozi-nyeusi kuwa na haki ama kupewa kipaumbele ilibidi yeye Mkapa akiwa kama Rais aliyepaswa kujali na kusimamia maendeleo ya watu wake angeliwaachia ama angehamasisha ngozi-nyeusi wengine wamiliki huo mgodi na si yeye. Katika hilo wala hahitaji kutetewa amedhihirisha ubinafsi, uroho uliochanganyika na roho mbaya na uchoyo dhidi ya Watanzania waliomwamini na kumpa heshima ya kuwaongoza.

Boramaisha said:

Mlenge anadhihirisha 'ujuha' unaotokana na arrogance ya kujifanya mjuaji.

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"Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack." http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html (italics added)

Jasusi said:

Mlenge,
At least let me give you credit for conducting a civil debate. I like that.

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Jasusi,

That is a very nice compliment to receive.

Regards,

Mlenge

Mlenge said:

What's wrong Mkapa kuwa na share Kiwira?

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Tatizo siyo kuwa na share Kiwira, isipokuwa ni namna ambavyo mchakato ulifanyika katika kuuza Kiwira na kumpa Mkapa au kampuni ya Mkapa umiliki wa bei chee wa huo Mgodi. Issue hapa ni kwamba (1) kama kweli alikuwa na share Kiwira then, ameshiriki moja kwa moja kwenye kuwadhulumu "wadanganyika" hali yeye alipaswa kuwa mstari wa mbele kwenye kulinda maslahi ya watu anaowaongoza, kwa kifupi alitusaliti (2) Kama Mgodi ulikuwa na thamani ya Tshs. Bil 4 wao wakauziwa kwa mil 700 na hatimaye kulipa mil 70 tu, yeye na wenzake wote walioshiriki kufanya ufisadi huo walipaswa kufikishwa mbele ya vyombo vya sheria (Matumizi mabaya ya ofisi ya uma kwa maslahi binafsi).

deodat said:

Tatizo siyo kuwa na share Kiwira, isipokuwa ni namna ambavyo mchakato ulifanyika katika kuuza Kiwira na kumpa Mkapa au kampuni ya Mkapa umiliki wa bei chee wa huo Mgodi. Issue hapa ni kwamba (1) kama kweli alikuwa na share Kiwira then, ameshiriki moja kwa moja kwenye kuwadhulumu "wadanganyika" hali yeye alipaswa kuwa mstari wa mbele kwenye kulinda maslahi ya watu anaowaongoza, kwa kifupi alitusaliti (2) Kama Mgodi ulikuwa na thamani ya Tshs. Bil 4 wao wakauziwa kwa mil 700 na hatimaye kulipa mil 70 tu, yeye na wenzake wote walioshiriki kufanya ufisadi huo walipaswa kufikishwa mbele ya vyombo vya sheria (Matumizi mabaya ya ofisi ya uma kwa maslahi binafsi).

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deodat,

(1) Kununua kampuni kunahusiana vipi na Mkapa kuwa Rais? Unless you have or there is evidence of foul playing by using his power, kwa nini usichukue 'face value' kwamba katumia haki yake ya kikatiba kununua kampuni?

(2) Una hakika na takwimu zako? Unajua kufanya tathmini ni taaluma?

(3) SPM Mgololo iliuzwa shilingi ngapi? Mashirika mangapi yaliyouzwa kwa tathmini ndogo? Katika hayo mangapi Mkapa alinunua, na mangapi asiyonunua mnayopigia kelele?

-- Mlenge

Ikiwa m2 utajiruhusu kutafakari swali linaloulizwa na ukajiuli kwa kina jibu unalolitoa litakuwa na mchango gani, basi hauwezi kujikuta ukichagua tusi kuwa mojawapo ya majibu yako.

Ikiwa m2 utajiruhusu kutafakari swali linaloulizwa na ukajiuli kwa kina jibu unalolitoa litakuwa na mchango gani, basi hauwezi kujikuta ukichagua tusi kuwa mojawapo ya majibu yako.