China opens the world's longest bridge

[Kitty Galore]

The world's longest sea bridge, Qingdao Jiaozhou Bay Bridge, in Qingdao, Shandong province, China, was officially opened on Thursday, June 30. The bridge is 42 km (26 miles) long.

26miles? That's endless driving. These Chinese people are something else! Kudos!

 

[Kiranga]

I sometimes get the feeling that China is engaging in some overzealous expansionist moves for propaganda reasons ( especially in this time when the west is financially vulnerable, as if to say, our system is much better, look what we can do ) without having a really feasible Return on Investment of any sort. The Beijing - Shanghai high speed railroad quoted at some thirty something billion dollars is one such project, they will not return that money.

How many billions did they spend on this, and how are they projecting to return all of that cheddar?

 

[staloneg]

Bongo story kibao na mipango isiyoisha

 

[Majoja]

I sometimes get the feeling that China is engaging in some overzealous expansionist moves for propaganda reasons ( especially in this time when the west is financially vulnerable, as if to say, our system is much better, look what we can do ) without having a really feasible Return on Investment of any sort. The Beijing - Shanghai high speed railroad quoted at some thirty something billion dollars is one such project, they will not return that money.

How many billions did they spend on this, and how are they projecting to return all of that cheddar?

Depends on your point of view,the West has been clobbered , hands down.
What was the economical rate of return for the Eiffel Tower at inauguration?
What about the scrapped Apollo programme
Power and prowess has got to be seen to be believed in.

 

[Roulette]

Depends on your point of view,the West has been clobbered , hands down.
What was the economical rate of return for the Eiffel Tower at inauguration?
What about the scrapped Apollo programme
Power and prowess has got to be seen to be believed in.

Good point. From an economic point of view there could be no return but the image of the nation is enhanced. Millions of people visit the eiffel tower annualy. They fly air france, they eant and sleep in france etc.
There IS some sort of interest in affirming technological supremacy over other countries. think about it...

 

[mamanalia]

penang, malaysia kuna 14km bridge, i drove there, so impresive to drive on 3 lane to n fro sea bridge. Jk awe anajifunza akiwa anaenda huko.

 

[Nanren]

I sometimes get the feeling that China is engaging in some overzealous expansionist moves for propaganda reasons ( especially in this time when the west is financially vulnerable, as if to say, our system is much better, look what we can do ) without having a really feasible Return on Investment of any sort. The Beijing - Shanghai high speed railroad quoted at some thirty something billion dollars is one such project, they will not return that money.

How many billions did they spend on this, and how are they projecting to return all of that cheddar?

Just remember that China is one of the world's tourist destination. They receive tens of thousands of tourists in a month (in 2008 for example they received 57.3 million; compare with less than 1million in three years for TZ). And then there is strong awareness and interest among the local Chinese population in tourism. Millions of middle income Chinese tourists "wanapenda kushangaa shangaa". Surely, the economic return has been taken into consideration and will be realized. Imagine tukijenga daraja kama hilo kati ya Mwanza na Ukerewe, hata mimi nitaenda kushangaa shangaa na kunywa supu ya sato pale Nansio. Au tukajenga kuunganisha kisiwa cha Mafia au pemba/unguja. Miundombinu kama hii are very important for tourism. Invest more money, you get more money. We invest little in our infrastructures, and we get so little from tourism, thanks to the few tourists whose first destination is Kenya and only come to TZ just by the way...

 

[Kiranga]

My concern is too much too fast will backfire. Right now their only saving grace is the enormity of their economy, affording them security in numbers

But inflation is catching up, cheap labor is waking up and demanding more, and with these kinds of growth on steroids, how long can China afford to splurge in these overzealous political extravagances, clearly past the point of diminishing returns?

I can understand an Eiffel Tower, that did not cost billions, even a Petrona Towers is pittance when you compare it with these unrealistic overspending.

The space missions are different, those are categorized under scientific research, and one can argue that despite spending all those billions, there is a huge ROI in things like GPS and weather forecast etc.

How China builds these, and why India never does - pictures - Pictures/Videos - News in Pictures | Economic Times

Just last month, China commissioned into operation the world's longest natural gas pipeline, the world's longest cross-sea bridge, and the world's longest high-speed rail link. In the next few months, the world's largest power plant will also become fully operational in China. What enables China to build such mega projects at dazzling speed?

Length 36.48 kilometre

Name: Jiaozhou Bay Bridge World's longest cross-sea bridge with a length of 36.48 km

Cost: $2.3 billion Commissioned in June 2011 The bridge spans the mouth of Jiaozhou Bay in eastern Shandong province. It is expected to cut travel distances by 30 km. There is an undersea tunnel, constructed at an additional cost of $1 billion, that runs parallel to the bridge

World's largest power station

How China builds these, and why India never does - pictures - Pictures/Videos - News in Pictures | Economic Times

Capacity 18.2 gigawatts

Name: Three Gorges Dam Power Project The power station has a capacity of 18.2 gigawatts. It will generate 100 terawatt hour of power a year

Cost: $26 billion Expected to become fully operational this year The Three Gorges Dam on the Yangtze River took over 12 years to build and was completed in 2006. The project has been controversial because of its environmental and human impact, as also the fact that it sits on a seismic fault. About 1.24 million people were displaced during construction of the dam

World's longest high-speed rail link
How China builds these, and why India never does - pictures - Pictures/Videos - News in Pictures | Economic Times

Speed 300 km per hour

Name: Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway At 1,318 km, it is the world's longest high-speed rail link. Trains will run at 300 km/hr

Cost: $32 billion Commissioned in June 2011 The rail link between China's two most important cities will cut travel time by more than half to 4 hours, 48 minutes . There are 244 bridges along the line, and the train will traverse the world's longest bridge (164 km), and second-longest viaduct bridge in the world (114 km)

Kila mtu anaangalia expansion hii kwa tamaa, wajanja wanauliza ROI iko wapi? Au ndiyo waChina wana dance to the music mpaka dakika ya mwisho Titanic linapozama ? Enjoy it while you can? Then what are they learning from the financial meltdown in the west ?

ROI is such a no brainer concept, I don't know why all of you are skirting around it and focusing on image.

 

[mdawa]

It will make sense if it improves lives of millions in China who are still poor.
Advanced countries with highest standards of living particularly those in Europe do not spend money on fancy projects which don't have economic returns. Look at advanced country like Germany which despite being a leader in innovation, there are no useless skyscrappers or even a (magnetic levitation) MAGLEV train which they innovated themselves. They have one experimental model in Hamburg which proved to be uneconomic but built one in China which was very much publicized. You can learn something from them, that things are measured from their economic importance and not prestige.

 

[fazili]

I sometimes get the feeling that China is engaging in some overzealous expansionist moves for propaganda reasons ( especially in this time when the west is financially vulnerable, as if to say, our system is much better, look what we can do ) without having a really feasible Return on Investment of any sort. The Beijing - Shanghai high speed railroad quoted at some thirty something billion dollars is one such project, they will not return that money.

How many billions did they spend on this, and how are they projecting to return all of that cheddar?

They don't need to return the money as it is from their own companies, its just in its go around way and stays where it is. It would be a different matter for Tanzania as we would have borrowed somewhere and contracted foreign companies so loose it completely. Let it go for China the super-power on it's way need to show the world how monstrous they are. Do you know the next show? Nuclear weapon and the art of war making, that will end up with apocalyptic scenes never witnessed before. God help!

 

[Kiranga]

It will make sense if it improves lives of millions in China who are still poor.
Advanced countries with highest standards of living particularly those in Europe do not spend money on fancy projects which don't have economic returns. Look at advanced country like Germany which despite being a leader in innovation, there are no useless skyscrappers or even a (magnetic levitation) MAGLEV train which they innovated themselves. They have one experimental model in Hamburg which proved to be uneconomic but built one in China which was very much publicized. You can learn something from them, that things are measured from their economic importance and not prestige.

Exactly my sentiments.

 

[Kiranga]

They don't need to return the money as it is from their own companies, its just in its go around way and stays where it is. It would be a different matter for Tanzania as we would have borrowed somewhere and contracted foreign companies so loose it completely. Let it go for China the super-power on it's way need to show the world how monstrous they are. Do you know the next show? Nuclear weapon and the art of war making, that will end up with apocalyptic scenes never witnessed before. God help!

I doubt - if only to be modest- you addressed the concepts of utility and return on investment at all.

Hata kama hela ni zako, huwezi kusema natapanya tu kwa sababu nanunua vitu kutoka duka la mjomba, na mjomba ananunua duka la shangazi. Kama mnanunua vitu visivyo na utility iliyo sawa na hela mnazotumia, eventually uzalishaji utapungua na wote mtakuwa masikini. Kwa sababu overall mtakuwa mnatumia kuliko mnavyozalisha.

Ndiyo maana concept ya "Return On Investment" ni muhimu sana hata kama unatumia hela zako mwenyewe, na hata kama unanunua kitu kutoka duka la mjomba wako (you keep it in the family like Italians).

Sijui hilo neno "return" katika "Return on Investment" limekuchanganya ukafikiri kwamba naongelea returning borrowed money. Ukweli ni kwamba, katika investment, concept ya "Return on Investment" iko pale pale, whether umekopa hela au hela ni zako.

I hope that China becomes even more successful economically (they are already promising to assist rescue the Eurozone/ Greece with billions of dollars). But if this proves to be a bubble that will bust because of an overzealous uneconomic expansionism I will not be surprised.

Nikisoma posts kama za Fazili hapo juu naaanza kuelewa kwa nini tuna matatizo ya umasikini tuliyonayo. Mtu anakwambia seriously kabisa kwamba ROI si muhimu, as long as hela zinazunguka ndani.

Hajui kwamba the second law of thermodynamics forbids a self perpetuating machine, na kama huna profit / break even una loss na ukiendelea hivyo utashindwa hata ku maintain hiyo mi project, itabaki kuwa some huge laghingstocks/ white elephant monuments to colossal economic mismanagement.

I just hope hatuna hii mentality miongoni mwa executives na decision makers wetu.

 

[Mtazamaji]

I sometimes get the feeling that China is engaging in some overzealous expansionist moves for propaganda reasons ( especially in this time when the west is financially vulnerable, as if to say, our system is much better, look what we can do ) without having a really feasible Return on Investment of any sort. The Beijing - Shanghai high speed railroad quoted at some thirty something billion dollars is one such project, they will not return that money.

How many billions did they spend on this, and how are they projecting to return all of that cheddar?

Kiranga Hilo daraja

• Mapato yake ya na kuchochea utalii yanaweza kuzidi hata serengeti.
• Limeanza kujengwa hata kabla west hawajawa vulnerable na uchumi wao. So wachina wamelijenga wakiwa hawana kigezo cha eurpean weaknes in mind.

Sisi tunashindwa kumarket natural tourism yetu lakini weezetu wanatengeneza artificial tourisma na wanatupiba bao vile vile. Na hata hao wanyama wetu tumekubali kuwauzia.

 

[mbweta]

China are risk taker daraja kama ilo 42 km alot of money alaf nchi yenyewe ipo subjected na earthquake at any time that investment can be destroyed lakin bado wamejenga. Sie nchi haina tatizo lolote ila maendeleo hakuna kwel kweny mit hakuna wajenz.

 

[Kiranga]

Kiranga Hilo daraja

• Mapato yake ya na kuchochea utalii yanaweza kuzidi hata serengeti.
• Limeanza kujengwa hata kabla west hawajawa vulnerable na uchumi wao. So wachina wamelijenga wakiwa hawana kigezo cha eurpean weaknes in mind.

Sisi tunashindwa kumarket natural tourism yetu lakini weezetu wanatengeneza artificial tourisma na wanatupiba bao vile vile. Na hata hao wanyama wetu tumekubali kuwauzia.

kwa hiyo una jibu lililo documented kuhusu return on investment kwa hili daraja? Like some figures and projections, kwa mwaka watalii wangapi watakuja na kuchangia vipi hela hizi kurudi? Na projection zinasema kwa muda gani hela hizi zitarudi?

Halafu ninachoongelea hapa ni zaidi ya project moja, ni kuweka pamoja costs za expansionism hii yote kwa pamoja.

Wamejenga Shanghai - Beijing high speed railroad kwa 32 billion dollars. Projections za kwanza zilikuwa terni ziende 350 km / hr, washaanza ku retreat mpaka 300 km/ hr kwa sababu za safety. Totally from the playbook of "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". Kuna vitu vingine vingapi muhimu wangewea kufanya kwa hela hizo bottom up na kupata a reasonable ROI?

At the end of the day it is their money, so they can spend it however they want. But also it is important for us to watch closely because the lessons we can draw here could be invaluable in our future.

If the Chinese cannot learn from the West, that doesn't mean we cannot have the advantage of learning from the mess of the West and the Chinese.

When you have a lackadaisical government like ours, one with no initiative and a clear plan, it is tempting to cheer China as an example of a go-geter government. So I totally understand why people would be psyched by China's expansionism, even if it is overzealous and more about propaganda than economics. But also, we have to focus on the bare fundamentals.

 

[Kiranga]

China are risk taker daraja kama ilo 42 km alot of money alaf nchi yenyewe ipo subjected na earthquake at any time that investment can be destroyed lakin bado wamejenga. Sie nchi haina tatizo lolote ila maendeleo hakuna kwel kweny mit hakuna wajenz.

Very important point.

On the other side of the coin - I am mainly being hard on China for taking too much risk- mara nyingine kuchukua risk - even too much risk- ndiyo njia pekee ya kuendelea.

Wachina wanaweza kuchukua projects 10 zilizo na high risk (high risk usually equals high returns, nina wa fault kwa kuchukua high risk low returns projects) na katika kumi hizo, 8 zikawa failures, lakini hizo mbili zitakazofanikiwa zikawa so revolutionary kiasi cha ku cover costs za hizo 8 even tenfold. There is an article about something like that in this months "Scientific America" to do with renewable energy innovation. These are pretty much uncharted waters, and as always with that, nobody can claim to have the map.

There is a thin line between taking too much risk, and not taking enough risk.

The lesson you are giving us here is, China is taking too much risk. We are taking too little of it. We both need to converge towards that thin line separating the "no risk zone" (Tanzania, no good) and the "too much risk zone" (China, no good)

 

[Mtazamaji]

kwa hiyo una jibu lililo documented kuhusu return on investment kwa hili daraja? Like some figures and projections, kwa mwaka watalii wangapi watakuja na kuchangia vipi hela hizi kurudi? Na projection zinasema kwa muda gani hela hizi zitarudi?

Halafu ninachoongelea hapa ni zaidi ya project moja, ni kuweka pamoja costs za expansionism hii yote kwa pamoja.

Wamejenga Shanghai - Beijing kwa 32 billion dollars. Kuna vitu vingine vingapi muhimu wangewea kufanya kwa hela hizo na kupata a reasonable ROI?

At the end of the day it is their money, so they can spend it however they want. But also it is important for us to watch closely because the lessons we can draw here could be invaluable in our future.

If the Chinese cannot learn from the West, that doesn't mean we cannot have the advantage of learning from the mess of the West and the Chinese.

• Wachina wataanza kupata contract ya kujenga motorway za west na USA
• Nimesoma article moja tayari wameshapata contractya kufua njia moja ya train huko USA na kuifanya iwe ya kasi zaidi.

Hizo construction zinaiweka makampuni ya construction ya china katika postion to Compete beyond third world countries. Hivyo Hivyo kwa train.

 

[Mtazamaji]

Pia hiyo ni njia ya serikali ku distibute wealth yake kwa kuigawa kwa makapuni trough tender. hapo kuna ajira . Through life time ya huo mradi kuna milionea kadhaa wakichina wamekuwa created.

wakati na serikali imefanikiwa kupata infastructure. na kama nilivyosema ni Njia ya kuwieka china katika more competetive postion kwenye construction indutsry. Miaka si mingi makapuni ya ujezi ya ulaya yataanza kusaga meno kama unavyoona vikampuni vyetu vya barabara vinavyolia
lia.

It will make sense if it improves lives of millions in China who are still poor.
Advanced countries with highest standards of living particularly those in Europe do not spend money on fancy projects which don't have economic returns. Look at advanced country like Germany which despite being a leader in innovation, there are no useless skyscrappers or even a (magnetic levitation) MAGLEV train which they innovated themselves. They have one experimental model in Hamburg which proved to be uneconomic but built one in China which was very much publicized. You can learn something from them, that things are measured from their economic importance and not prestige.

Kwenye ziara ya juzi juzi ulaya PM wa china nasikia alisisitiza kutaka investment na tenology ya Auto kutoka germany wneda china. Germany wasi wasi wao ni technology piracy. teh teh teh Lakini mwisho wa siku mkono kwa mkono. Wakaingia mkataba wachina wamepata wanachotaka na wagermany wamepata wanachotaka sijui ni nini. At the end naona China ni wiinner.

 

[Kiranga]

• Wachina wataanza kupata contract ya kujenga motorway za west na USA
• Nimesoma article moja tayari wameshapata contractya kufua njia moja ya train huko USA na kuifanya iwe ya kasi zaidi.

Hizo construction zinaiweka makampuni ya construction ya china katika postion to Compete beyond third world countries. Hivyo Hivyo kwa train.

Very important point.

Hii ndiyo hii element ya "uncharted waters" niliyokuwa naongelea hapo juu.

Kwa kuwa kunaweza kutokea interest ya kuinvest katika high speed trains, na kwa kuwa Wachina watakuwa na uzoefu wa kui-manage hii, wanaweza ku justify hii project nzima kama scientific research inayoweza kuwapa competitive advantage. Not so much in the west as to the rest of the world.

Lakini, if you go to the basics, the risk factor is too high right now. I don't see a reasonable demand to justify this. For the foreseeable future the Chinese are going to be building the bulk of it. Europe is in shambles, the dollar is just inches from falling as an international trade currency ( we are still crossing our fingers about the debt ceiling predicament) so who is going to build these expensive projects? Angola? Some of these places do not even have roads and regular railways, forget about expensive futuristic 350 km/ hr high speed railways.

So hence my original concern. Even if you make this a scientific research sort of project, unless you want to make this some sort of governmental ARPANET (ARPANET wasn't that expensive because it embraced the peer to peer model and avoided much cost, which is exactly my argument) or something equal to the space projects - altruistic in nature, advancement of technology held with high premium but economic returns not so much- . Unless the Chinese want to go that route, and they are not known for that sort of altruism, I don't see much sense in their overzealous expansionism. This is exactly what brough America's ruin, the reason why Obama is shutting down the space programs (although I don't understand why he is babysitting the military spending).

Are the Chinese still caught up in the same medieval/ ancient fantasy of being the center of the world and infatuated with their heaven mandate to show the world civilization to the extent of not recognizing the current economic trends?

 

[Mtazamaji]

.......

So hence my original concern. Even if you make this a scientific research sort of project, unless you want to make this some sort of governmental ARPANET (ARPANET wasn't that expensive because it embraced the peer to peer model and avoided much cost, which is exactly my argument) or something equal to the space projects - altruistic in nature, advancement of technology held with high premium but economic returns not so much- . Unless the Chinese want to go that route, and they are not known for that sort of altruism, I don't see much sense in their overzealous expansionism. This is exactly what brough America's ruin, the reason why Obama is shutting down the space programs (although I don't understand why he is babysitting the military spending).

Kiranga hapo kwneye Aparente umenikumbusha nilisoma kuwa 1 out of three FBI CIA IT expert sio competent. Wengine wako kwenye vitengo ambavyo hawajui hata jinsi ya kufanya kazi zao. walifanya reaserch wenye mambo ya hacking an IT security wakatoa report hiyo.

No wonder wachina hivi sasa wanaweza hata kuwasumbua wamarekani kwenye technolojia ambayo wao USA ndio waanzilishi........

mhh wachina nadhani hizo Risk taking zao ziko calculated na zinawapa faida sana. Export kubwa ya UK USA ni vifaaa vya kijeshi. na china tayari anakuja kwa kasi ya ajabu huko.........