Beating the Drum on One Side: Confusing the People on Both Sides

Companero · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Naaona hujaysoma majibu yangu, rudia:

FF,
Naweka hapa kutoka kitabu cha Abdul Sykes athar za Maji Maji kwa ndugu zetu:

Hayo ndiyo matatizo ya kuangalia upande mmoja tu wa historia anayoyazungumzia Profu maana hawa wengine huwaongelei:

It was vital to Tanganyika's later history that after defeating Abushiri the German made allies of the coastal Muslims...It was equally important that coastal society contained men willing to learn western skills, serve western masters, and create a place for Muslims in colonial Tanganyika. These men came from two sections of coastal society. One was the Omani aristocracy which had served the Sayyid. Its members generally led the peace parties which negotiated with Wissmann. The most prominent was Wissmann's friend and agent, Suleiman bin Nasor, liwali successively of Pangani, Bagamoyo, and Dar es Salaam, and regarded by other Arabs as 'more German than the Germans'. Some resistance leaders also rehabilitated themselves, notably the learned Omari bin Jamaliddini, kadhi of Lindi from before the German invasion until 1945. The other group to serve the Germans contained younger men from lower social strata who took advantage of German education" - A MODERN HISTORY OF TANGANYIKA PAGE 208

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

Udadisi said:
At least you agree that it actually happened, maybe the ''pedagogic at heart" will follow suit

So now you patronise the Germans as good colonialists right?

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Nyakageni said:
this is awkward!
RESEARCH BILA METHODOLOGY na unaona sawa!

hakuna research design, sampling, literature review, tools & methods, data collection & analysis, references!!?

NAWE UNASEMA SAWA TU

hivi umesoma kitabu cha "MBIRU protest in pre colonial Tanganyika"? Mbona hakuna ujinga wa wahusika wote ni wavaa misuli?

Ulikuja nalo hilo swali nikakujibu, unajifanya hujaona?:

https://www.jamiiforums.com/jukwaa-...-on-both-sides-post11985287.html#post11985287

Kwa kukupunguzia kazi na kwa kuona una macho lakini hayaoni, una masikio lakini hayasikii. Sasa bofya link kwa majibu tuliyokwishakupa, kisha jipange upya:

https://www.jamiiforums.com/jukwaa-...-on-both-sides-post11984530.html#post11984530

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Udadisi said:
Hayo ndiyo matatizo ya kuangalia upande mmoja tu wa historia anayoyazungumzia Profu maana hawa wengine huwaongelei:

It was vital to Tanganyika's later history that after defeating Abushiri the German made allies of the coastal Muslims...It was equally important that coastal society contained men willing to learn western skills, serve western masters, and create a place for Muslims in colonial Tanganyika. These men came from two sections of coastal society. One was the Omani aristocracy which had served the Sayyid. Its members generally led the peace parties which negotiated with Wissmann. The most prominent was Wissmann's friend and agent, Suleiman bin Nasor, liwali successively of Pangani, Bagamoyo, and Dar es Salaam, and regarded by other Arabs as 'more German than the Germans'. Some resistance leaders also rehabilitated themselves, notably the learned Omari bin Jamaliddini, kadhi of Lindi from before the German invasion until 1945. The other group to serve the Germans contained younger men from lower social strata who took advantage of German education" - A MODERN HISTORY OF TANGANYIKA PAGE 208

Naona paper umeikimbia, sasa ulitaka Mjerumani au Muingereza amkute nani pwani ya Tanganyika? unashangaza!

Tena hizo allies zilikuwa formed baada ya nini? unaweza kurudia? baada ya jihad na Abushir. Au hilo hukuliona? hujajiuliza kwanini Abushiri apigane na Mjerumani? au hilo hutaki kujuwa?

Hujajiuliza kwanini Mjerumani amyonge Suleman Mamba? au hilo hutaki kujuwa?

Companero · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Naona sasa unachanganya mada, hivi hukuliona hili

By FaizaFoxy

Halafu hizo fursa unazoongelea katika paper tunayoijadili hapa ya Mohamed Said ni zipi kijana hizo fursa? fursa za taifa kutokuwa na "heroes" ndiyo za ki "uchumi"? Fikiri japo kiduchu.

Hebu nipe nukuu ya hizo "fursa" za " kiuchumi" unazoongelea wewe kutoka kwenye paper ya Mohamed Said tunayoijadili.

Kama sasa umeliona, hicho kitabu ndiyo anachokijadili "Professor" wako kwenye hiyo argument yake yenye "makosa ya kitoto"? pia, umeona hayo hayo maneno uliyoyaleta ya Mohamed Said anamnukuu nani? unaweza kukataa hiyo nukuu? huko ulikoipachua hukuona reference?

Hivi hizo shule huwa mnaenda kusomea ujinga?

Naona unaendelea kupiga chenga za mwili, haya ngoja tukukabe hapo hapo kwenye hiyo pepa ya Mzee Said, enhe hili la Dossa kufa maskini ni siasa tu au ndiyo uchumi wenyewe huo?

Reflecting on what was the end of his elder brother, [1] the once rich and flamboyant Dossa Aziz and his contribution to the struggle for independence, first as a party financier and second as Nyerere's close friend, ally and right hand man and retrospectively coming to the painful reality that his brother died a poor man; and the fact that his brother does not feature anywhere in Nyerere's life or in the history of the struggle or in TANU's history, the party which he was among the 17 founder members in 1954, he sadly uttered these words, ''Tanzania is a country without heroes.

[1] Dossa and Hamza Aziz were sons of Aziz Ali a building contractor and one of richest Africans in colonial Tanganyika.

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Sangarara said:
Ni wapi nimezungumzia mambo ya mauaji hadi useme mambo ya kumalizana?

Potea, sina time na mambo ya kitoto, kafunguwe nyuzi yake, hapa kuna mengine ambayo ni tofauti kabisa usitake kuharibu mada kijinga.

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

Udadisi said:
Hayo ndiyo matatizo ya kuangalia upande mmoja tu wa historia anayoyazungumzia Profu maana hawa wengine huwaongelei:

It was vital to Tanganyika's later history that after defeating Abushiri the German made allies of the coastal Muslims...It was equally important that coastal society contained men willing to learn western skills, serve western masters, and create a place for Muslims in colonial Tanganyika. These men came from two sections of coastal society. One was the Omani aristocracy which had served the Sayyid. Its members generally led the peace parties which negotiated with Wissmann. The most prominent was Wissmann's friend and agent, Suleiman bin Nasor, liwali successively of Pangani, Bagamoyo, and Dar es Salaam, and regarded by other Arabs as 'more German than the Germans'. Some resistance leaders also rehabilitated themselves, notably the learned Omari bin Jamaliddini, kadhi of Lindi from before the German invasion until 1945. The other group to serve the Germans contained younger men from lower social strata who took advantage of German education" - A MODERN HISTORY OF TANGANYIKA PAGE 208

Hahahahaaaa I could see you bemused there! I just pointed out the story of Chief Kiwanga.
If the Germans made alliance to an Arab called Suleiman bin Nassor and while they were fighting with Abushir bin Salim A Harthi and Mohammed Khalfan Al Barwani (Rumaliza) your cherry picking does not serve you right to make people think that the Germans were allied with the Muslimans or Arabs.

Modern History of Tanganyika? Is that the New Testament?

Sangarara · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Potea, sina time na mambo ya kitoto, kafunguwe nyuzi yake, hapa kuna mengine ambayo ni tofauti kabisa usitake kuharibu mada kijinga.

Toa upuuzi wako hapa, hamna hoja ndio maana mnaruka ruka wachumia tumbo nyie, mnashindwa kukabiliana na changamoto za kimaisha mnakimbilia kusingizia uislamu

Precise Pangolin · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Naona paper umeikimbia, sasa ulitaka Mjerumani au Muingereza amkute nani pwani ya Tanganyika? unashangaza!

Tena hizo allies zilikuwa formed baada ya nini? unaweza kurudia? baada ya jihad na Abushir. Au hilo hukuliona? hujajiuliza kwanini Abushiri apigane na Mjerumani? au hilo hutaki kujuwa?

Hujajiuliza kwanini Mjerumani amyonge Suleman Mamba? au hilo hutaki kujuwa?

Ajuza Faiza achana nao hao wanatupotezea muda tuwekee ile historia ya kariakoo iliyotengenezwa na Babu Mohamed Said tuendelee kunyonya ilimu

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Udadisi said:
Naona unaendelea kupiga chenga za mwili, haya ngoja tukukabe hapo hapo kwenye hiyo pepa ya Mzee Said, enhe hili la Dossa kufa maskini ni siasa tu au ndiyo uchumi wenyewe huo?

Reflecting on what was the end of his elder brother, [1] the once rich and flamboyant Dossa Aziz and his contribution to the struggle for independence, first as a party financier and second as Nyerere's close friend, ally and right hand man and retrospectively coming to the painful reality that his brother died a poor man; and the fact that his brother does not feature anywhere in Nyerere's life or in the history of the struggle or in TANU's history, the party which he was among the 17 founder members in 1954, he sadly uttered these words, ''Tanzania is a country without heroes.

[1] Dossa and Hamza Aziz were sons of Aziz Ali a building contractor and one of richest Africans in colonial Tanganyika.

Na hilo la Dossa Aziz nalo lina-justify cooked up statistics za Professor Hirji? na hizo statistics za "Professor" zilikuwa za uchumi?

Unajuwa unanishangaza sana, mwenzako anaejiita KVM kuhusu ku justify cooked up data za "Professor" wenu alikuja na justification ya cadaver wa medical school. Wewe unakuja na kufa masikini kwa Dossa Aziz, one of the remembered heroes after 50 Years of independence. Can you tell us how comes he was remembered after 50 Years?

Zote hizo mnataka ku justify cooked up data za Hirji ambazo hazina uhusiano wowote na uchumi, kama ulivyotaka kutuyakinishia kuwa unaweza kuleta data za kufikirika ikiwa kuna historia ya uchumi. Khaaa!

Hivi hizo shule huwa mnaenda kusomea ujinga?

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Sangarara said:
Toa upuuzi wako hapa, hamna hoja ndio maana mnaruka ruka wachumia tumbo nyie, mnashindwa kukabiliana na changamoto za kimaisha mnakimbilia kusingizia uislamu

Naona huna cha maana kwa sasa. Nnakuweka kiporo.

Precise Pangolin · Feb 25, 2015

Punjab Singh said:
Hahahahaaaa I could see you bemused there! I just pointed out the story of Chief Kiwanga.
If the Germans made alliance to an Arab called Suleiman bin Nassor and while they were fighting with Abushir bin Salim A Harthi and. Mohammed Khalfan Al Barwani (Rumaliza) your cherry picking does not serve you right to make people think that the Germans were allied with the Muslimans or Arabs.

Modern History of Tanganyika? Is that the New Testament?

Achana nayo bana wekea history ya gariakoo toka babu said

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Precise Pangolin said:
Ajuza Faiza achana nao hao wanatupotezea muda tuwekee ile historia ya kariakoo iliyotengenezwa na Babu Mohamed Said tuendelee kunyonya ilimu

Unaweza kupitia kwenye website yake, hujuwi ilipo? google tu.

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Udadisi said:
Hayo ndiyo matatizo ya kuangalia upande mmoja tu wa historia anayoyazungumzia Profu maana hawa wengine huwaongelei:

It was vital to Tanganyika's later history that after defeating Abushiri the German made allies of the coastal Muslims...It was equally important that coastal society contained men willing to learn western skills, serve western masters, and create a place for Muslims in colonial Tanganyika. These men came from two sections of coastal society. One was the Omani aristocracy which had served the Sayyid. Its members generally led the peace parties which negotiated with Wissmann. The most prominent was Wissmann's friend and agent, Suleiman bin Nasor, liwali successively of Pangani, Bagamoyo, and Dar es Salaam, and regarded by other Arabs as 'more German than the Germans'. Some resistance leaders also rehabilitated themselves, notably the learned Omari bin Jamaliddini, kadhi of Lindi from before the German invasion until 1945. The other group to serve the Germans contained younger men from lower social strata who took advantage of German education" - A MODERN HISTORY OF TANGANYIKA PAGE 208

Hivi kanisa lilikuwa upande upi wakati wa kudai Uhuru?

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

Precise Pangolin said:
Achana nayo bana wekea history ya gariakoo toka babu said

Ooow, I touched the nerve there! Teh teh teh

Companero · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Naona paper umeikimbia...

Pedagogic at heart, tunaendelea, pepa ya Mzee Said inarejea tena suala la elimu kama nilivyolinukuu hapo chini, bado unapinga tu kwamba fursa za kiuchumi/kielimu nayo siyo 'inshu' hapo?

"It is also a fact that Christians assumed leadership positions in the independence government and are still monopolising those positions because of their superior education" - UKURASA WA 12 WA PEPA 'TAJWA'

Upedagogic at heart lazima uone kwamba kuna uhusiano kati ya hoja ya hiyo pepa na hoja za kitabu cha Mzee Said ambacho kakirejea humo kwenye pepa kama kawaida yake, na hitimisho la hilo pepa haliongelei siasa tu linaongelea na uchumi na maendeleo kwa ujumla - linganisha hizi nukuu zake kutoka ukurasa wa 12-13 na 18-19 katika mfululizo/mfuatano huo, yaani, 'repectively':

Muslims suffered as colonised subjects singled out for discrimination by being denied education, curtailing any chances for self-advancement. The survival of Muslims as a Muslims suffered as colonised subjects singled out for discrimination by being denied education, curtailing any chances for self-advancement. The survival of Muslims as a people and Islam as a religion therefore lay in the total overthrow of the colonial state.

...

This is now the bone of contention between Muslims and the government. Muslims without mincing words are now pointing an accusing finger to the Church particularly the Catholic Church which it is believed in connivance with President Nyerere frustrated hopes and aspirations of Muslims in free Tanganyika, a country they liberated from colonialism in 1961.[1] Muslims are now organising nationwide mass rallies which openly and in live broadcasts through Muslim radio stations denounce the church, criticise the government and church agents within the ruling party CCM and the Parliament for oppressing Muslims. Seemingly derogatory words like "pandikizi" (singular) and "mapandikizi" (plural) meaning "turncoats;" or the new coined word "Mfumo Kristo" roughly meaning "Christian dominance" are now part of the Muslim and Swahili vocabulary. These analogies are used freely in the Muslim media and among Muslims in every day conversation. But what usually thrills Muslims and utterly significant showing that times have changed is when in the rallies and in normal discussion Muslims refer to Nyerere hitherto known respectfully as "Baba wa Taifa" as "Baba wa Kanisa," meaning "Church Elder."

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Punjab Singh said:
Dont be naive please we all know this was not even done in good faith it was a strategic trick by the Germans, we all know about the tricky accords the Germans entered with the chiefs and how they were used to suppress the people. And this wherrle Gombesugu flawes Karim Hirji.
One example is the story of Chief Kiwanga of Mahenge.

Give this piece to Udadisi, just to remind him how good the Germans were:

In 1884 Dr Karl Peters journeyed into the interior to acquire territory, through treaties with chiefs, on behalf of the German emperor. In the late 1880s Germany took over the area from the coast to (and including) Ruanda and Urundi, calling it the Protectorate of German East Africa. There was rather sparse German settlement: the people objected to being ‘protected'. In 1905–06 there was an all-out rebellion, which was put down by a strategically engineered famine, leading to about 200,000 deaths. -

See more at: United Republic of Tanzania : History | The Commonwealth

And if I may ask Udadisi and " Professor" Hirji, can they give us a "hypothetical data" on what was the 200,000 deaths as to percentage of the population at the time?

Hapo sasa!

Mohamed Said · Feb 25, 2015

Wanabarza,
Kuna mtu hapa yeye kaamua kuwa Launcelot Gobbo,
Ikiwa hamjui huyu ni nani aingie "Merchant of Venice," William Shakespeare.

Ananikejeli "name calling" ati mimi ni Mzee wa Boston.
Ugomvi hauko kwenye uzee.

By the way leo nimetimiza miaka 63.
Alhamdulilah.

Ugomvi uko hapo kwenye, "Boston."
Sasa namuongezea mji mwingine na atizame hii picha:

Hapo juu nipo UN Geneva.
Hiyo picha ni mashuhuri inaitwa "Broken Leg Chair."

Akipenda sasa na aniite Mzee wa Geneva au UN Geneva
au vyovyote vile.

Tutandendelea hivi In Sha Allah kila akitoa jina na mimi nampa mji mpya.
Nimepata kumuonya nikamwambia husda ni maradhi mabaya ya nafsi.

Mnakasha umenoga Faiza anadarsisha,
Mashaallah.

Angekuwa mwanamme ningempiga kilemba.

Kwa kuwa ni mama yetu namvisha ushungi wa hariri.
Allah amuongozee ilm na amjaalie umri tawil.

Companero · Feb 25, 2015

Punjab Singh said:
Hahahahaaaa I could see you bemused there! I just pointed out the story of Chief Kiwanga.
If the Germans made alliance to an Arab called Suleiman bin Nassor and while they were fighting with Abushir bin Salim A Harthi and Mohammed Khalfan Al Barwani (Rumaliza) your cherry picking does not serve you right to make people think that the Germans were allied with the Muslimans or Arabs.

Modern History of Tanganyika? Is that the New Testament?

Read again the argument and, by the way, there is a big difference between the word "while" and "after"; in short, what Prof. Hirji is saying is that this not simply a matter of Muslims as anti-colonialism, there were Muslims who were pro-colonialism.

"Said unreasonably emphasises one type of grievance in the anticolonial struggles. In truth, those struggles derived from many grievances. They included limited educational opportunities, exploitative trade practices, lack of representation in political decision making, denial of civil service jobs and business licenses, unfair pay schemes and taxation, land appropriation, persistent poverty, preferences granted to Asians, and cultural domination. Religion based grievances were a marginal factor in this equation" - Karim Hirji

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Udadisi said:
Pedagogic at heart, tunaendelea, pepa ya Mzee Said inarejea tena suala la elimu kama nilivyolinukuu hapo chini, bado unapinga tu kwamba fursa za kiuchumi/kielimu nayo siyo 'inshu' hapo?

"It is also a fact that Christians assumed leadership positions in the independence government and are still monopolising those positions because of their superior education" - UKURASA WA 12 WA PEPA 'TAJWA'

Upedagogic at heart lazima uone kwamba kuna uhusiano kati ya hoja ya hiyo pepa na hoja za kitabu cha Mzee Said ambacho kakirejea humo kwenye pepa kama kawaida yake, na hitimisho la hilo pepa haliongelei siasa tu linaongelea na uchumi na maendeleo kwa ujumla - linganisha hizi nukuu zake kutoka ukurasa wa 12-13 na 18-19 katika mfululizo/mfuatano huo, yaani, 'repectively':

Muslims suffered as colonised subjects singled out for discrimination by being denied education, curtailing any chances for self-advancement. The survival of Muslims as a Muslims suffered as colonised subjects singled out for discrimination by being denied education, curtailing any chances for self-advancement. The survival of Muslims as a people and Islam as a religion therefore lay in the total overthrow of the colonial state.

...

This is now the bone of contention between Muslims and the government. Muslims without mincing words are now pointing an accusing finger to the Church particularly the Catholic Church which it is believed in connivance with President Nyerere frustrated hopes and aspirations of Muslims in free Tanganyika, a country they liberated from colonialism in 1961.[1] Muslims are now organising nationwide mass rallies which openly and in live broadcasts through Muslim radio stations denounce the church, criticise the government and church agents within the ruling party CCM and the Parliament for oppressing Muslims. Seemingly derogatory words like "pandikizi" (singular) and "mapandikizi" (plural) meaning "turncoats;" or the new coined word "Mfumo Kristo" roughly meaning "Christian dominance" are now part of the Muslim and Swahili vocabulary. These analogies are used freely in the Muslim media and among Muslims in every day conversation. But what usually thrills Muslims and utterly significant showing that times have changed is when in the rallies and in normal discussion Muslims refer to Nyerere hitherto known respectfully as "Baba wa Taifa" as "Baba wa Kanisa," meaning "Church Elder."

Sasa umeruka kutoka uchumi umeingia katika uchumi/elimu. Wakati katika nukuu yako yote hiyo sijaona hata statistic moja iwe ya ki uchumi wala kielimu.

Kwi kwi kwi teh teh teh.

Huo ndiyo ukweli, hakuna cooked up statics hapo au wewe unaziona?

Hivi hizo shule huwa mnaenda kusomea ujinga?

Beating the Drum on One Side: Confusing the People on Both Sides

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