Was Mandela Right to Sell Out Black South Africans?


The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
12,371
Likes
18,170
Points
280
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined Oct 12, 2012
12,371 18,170 280
Nelson Mandela sold out black South Africans. Now there's a sentence you won't have heard in the days since his death and that you won't be hearing at his memorial tomorrow. Yet it's incontrovertibly true that after centuries of being robbed of possibly the greatest mineral wealth the world has ever known, not to mention decades of being repressed by apartheid, black South Africans got almost no compensation for what should rightfully have been theirs when the old regime was swept away for the new South Africa.

Indeed, the basic deal Mandela struck from prison with F.W. de Klerk, and which was subsequently enshrined in the South African constitution, essentially guaranteed the existing property rights of white South Africans in exchange for an end to apartheid.
For whites, the deal made sense. Apartheid could not be maintained forever against international pressure and internal resistance. The odds of holding onto the material benefits of the oppressive traditional system were much higher with black African enfranchisement than without it. A successful revolution would lead to the dispossession of whites, just as it had in almost every other corner of formerly colonial sub-Saharan Africa. What Mandela was promising was more than half a loaf. It was a whole loaf of wealth with a proportionately small loaf of political power.

For black South Africans, especially supporters of the African National Congress who had idolized Mandela during his 27-year imprisonment, the choice was much harder. What they were giving up was nothing less than their material patrimony. Over many generations, blacks in South Africa might build businesses and earn money, and a slice of leadership might emerge as a political-business elite entitled to a share of the country's national wealth. But for most black South Africans, there would be no major opportunity to change the economic conditions of their lives in the foreseeable future. Wealth would remain with their former oppressors.

On the positive side, if black South Africans could accept the deal Mandela had struck, the country might avoid the flight of whites -- and with them white capital -- that had happened in other countries on the continent. In the aftermath of morally justified redistribution of wealth, many sub-Saharan countries had found themselves poorer, not richer. It was a gamble for the poorest South Africans to bet that forgoing their just rights might actually leave them slightly better off in the long run; but it was a gamble arguably worth taking.
A further potential upside of the deal was harder to articulate publicly. Many post-colonial African countries had evolved from colonialism to proud independence to patrimonial, despotic dictatorship in just a generation. Perhaps the continued presence of white South Africans in positions of economic importance would create an incentive for the ANC leadership to govern democratically. No credible democratic political opposition to the party that fought for and achieved freedom was going to exist for a long while. To keep the government honest, then, a different threat was needed: The threat of flight by white capital should the ANC subvert democratic practices and values might actually help the country going forward.

The black South African public may not have realized, in the first flush of pride in their freed leader and his global prestige, exactly what deal they were implicitly taking. But the constitutional process, admirably accomplished over several years in full public view, made the deal more or less transparent. For the most part, black South Africans voted to take the deal. They were, in essence, validating Mandela's promises to de Klerk and white South Africa. The rhetoric of brotherhood and nonvengeance -- exemplified, for example, in Mandela's embrace of the Springboks national rugby team -- was the cultural counterpart to the promise of continued coexistence under white economic dominance.

Was Mandela right to sacrifice justice for the chance of a richer and more democratic South Africa? The question of his heroic status depends on the answer. Looking at the career of Yasser Arafat, who consistently made a different choice, inclines one to think that the answer is yes. A politician shouldn't act on what is absolutely fair, but what is pragmatically most likely to succeed in the real world.
Yet, as we mourn Mandela, it is also worth remembering that, like almost all constitutions, South Africa's founding pact was born in the sin of compromise. Compromise is sin because people don't get what they deserve. But that sin is necessary, because after it's committed, people are better off than they would be without it.
The international community rightly reveres Nelson Mandela as a man of peace. But he was not a saint -- and for that we should be grateful. He brought peace through his ability to convince millions of his countrymen that they should accept much less than they were in justice owed.

Source

Was Mandela Right to Sell Out Black South Africans? - Bloomberg

cc Candid Scope
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Money Stunna

Money Stunna

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
13,097
Likes
389
Points
180
Money Stunna

Money Stunna

JF-Expert Member
Joined Aug 9, 2011
13,097 389 180
mandela alizuia vita vya wenyewe kwa wenyewe kama angelipiza kisasi south ingekuwa kwenye machafuko ya vita sababu wale makaburu waliamia south miaka mingi sana.

pia wameshikilia uchumi.

Mandela angelipiza kisasi south ingekuwa kama zimbabwe. uchumi ungeanguka. vikwazo vya kiuchumi. miundo mbinu ingekuwa mibovu.

Mandela aliangalia future zaidi. pia Maendeleo hayaji siku moja usitegemee black wote waishi vizuri ila ukweli south wamepiga hatua kubwa sana mjue kuandaa world cup si lelemama lazima miundo mbinu iwe ya kutosha. ngoja ninywe chai nitarud
 
C

cha'

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
471
Likes
5
Points
35
C

cha'

JF-Expert Member
Joined Jun 22, 2013
471 5 35
Uhuru wa sa ni goli la ushindi la hat trick kwa weupe kupata uhuru wa kiuchumi na weusi wa kisiasa.
Siasa haiwezi kuusaliti uchumi wa nchi hata mara moja "except Tanzania", ila kinyume inawezekana. Weupe bado washindi kwa hili.
 
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
12,371
Likes
18,170
Points
280
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined Oct 12, 2012
12,371 18,170 280
mandela alizuia vita vya wenyewe kwa wenyewe kama angelipiza kisasi south ingekuwa kwenye machafuko ya vita sababu wale makaburu waliamia south miaka mingi sana.

pia wameshikilia uchumi.

Mandela angelipiza kisasi south ingekuwa kama zimbabwe. uchumi ungeanguka. vikwazo vya kiuchumi. miundo mbinu ingekuwa mibovu.

Mandela aliangalia future zaidi. pia Maendeleo hayaji siku moja usitegemee black wote waishi vizuri ila ukweli south wamepiga hatua kubwa sana mjue kuandaa world cup si lelemama lazima miundo mbinu iwe ya kutosha. ngoja ninywe chai nitarud
Unachosema ni kweli mkuu lakini bado weupe ndio wamekamata uchumi na maisha ya weusi yanazidi kuwa na hali mbaya!
 
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
12,371
Likes
18,170
Points
280
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined Oct 12, 2012
12,371 18,170 280
Uhuru wa sa ni goli la ushindi la hat trick kwa weupe kupata uhuru wa kiuchumi na weusi wa kisiasa.
Siasa haiwezi kuusaliti uchumi wa nchi hata mara moja "except Tanzania", ila kinyume inawezekana. Weupe bado washindi kwa hili.
Na ndio maana weupe wameendelea kumtukuza sana Mandela kuliko hata Afrika, kama angewafukuza usingezisikia sifa zote hivi. Jamaa wapo very very strategic. Ngoja siku Mugabe akifa utaona yatakayosemwa.
 
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
2,941
Likes
288
Points
180
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined Mar 31, 2007
2,941 288 180
Unachosema ni kweli mkuu lakini bado weupe ndio wamekamata uchumi na maisha ya weusi yanazidi kuwa na hali mbaya!
...Samaritan, labda tujiulize, weusi walioko kwenye madaraka leo hii, wamefanya kazi gani kuhakikisha maisha ya wenzao yanaboreka? au wamejisahau na wanaona bado wako picnic with a basket full of food and drinks!?

...weupe wataendelea kukamata uchumi, kwani wao wanajua nini wanafanya. hata katika hizi nchi zetu, bado weupe wameendelea kukamata uchumi.

...tunahitaji zaidi mapinduzi ya fikra, kuliko kitu kingine chechote kile. lazima tujitambue, tulipotoka, tulipo, tunakoelekea, na tunakotaka kwenda.
 
Madela Wa- Madilu

Madela Wa- Madilu

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
3,073
Likes
57
Points
135
Madela Wa- Madilu

Madela Wa- Madilu

JF-Expert Member
Joined Mar 24, 2007
3,073 57 135
Sisi tulitaifisha mali za Wazungu na wahindi, leo hii CCM inaingia mikataba ya Kiharamia na Kila mwenye fedha duniani.
Faida ya kutaifisha kila kitu kisha baada ya hali za wazawa kuwa nyanya kulegeza ili kila mwenye nia mbaya aibake nchi yetu ni nini?
Mandela aliona mbali sana na alikuwa right.
 
Kingdom_man

Kingdom_man

JF-Expert Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Messages
459
Likes
233
Points
80
Kingdom_man

Kingdom_man

JF-Expert Member
Joined May 19, 2010
459 233 80
...Samaritan, labda tujiulize, weusi walioko kwenye madaraka leo hii, wamefanya kazi gani kuhakikisha maisha ya wenzao yanaboreka? au wamejisahau na wanaona bado wako picnic with a basket full of food and drinks!?

...weupe wataendelea kukamata uchumi, kwani wao wanajua nini wanafanya. hata katika hizi nchi zetu, bado weupe wameendelea kukamata uchumi.

...tunahitaji zaidi mapinduzi ya fikra, kuliko kitu kingine chechote kile. lazima tujitambue, tulipotoka, tulipo, tunakoelekea, na tunakotaka kwenda.
AMEN to that! Well said.
 
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
12,371
Likes
18,170
Points
280
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined Oct 12, 2012
12,371 18,170 280
...Samaritan, labda tujiulize, weusi walioko kwenye madaraka leo hii, wamefanya kazi gani kuhakikisha maisha ya wenzao yanaboreka? au wamejisahau na wanaona bado wako picnic with a basket full of food and drinks!?

...weupe wataendelea kukamata uchumi, kwani wao wanajua nini wanafanya. hata katika hizi nchi zetu, bado weupe wameendelea kukamata uchumi.

...tunahitaji zaidi mapinduzi ya fikra, kuliko kitu kingine chechote kile. lazima tujitambue, tulipotoka, tulipo, tunakoelekea, na tunakotaka kwenda.
Mkuu hapo tuko pamoja, huo ukombozi wa fikra tatizo ni kwamba, hawa jamaa weupe wanafanya kila njia kuhakikisha hatuupati.Na wanakuja na propaganda za kujidai kutusaidia kupata huo ukombozi wa fikra wakati ki ukweli nia yao ya dhati ni kuhakikisha tunabaki katika hii hali milele.

Na ndio maana leo hii kiongozi yeyote anaetaka kuja na sera za kutowanyeyekea sana weupe watafanya kila njia kumpinga na kuhakikisha anaonekana hawezi lolote hata kwa wananchi wake. Mfano mdogo ni Gadafi na Mugabe mkuu.

Bottom line, hatuwezi kutoka hapa tulipo kwa msaada wa wazungu. Thanks mkuu
 
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
12,371
Likes
18,170
Points
280
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined Oct 12, 2012
12,371 18,170 280
Sisi tulitaifisha mali za Wazungu na wahindi, leo hii CCM inaingia mikataba ya Kiharamia na Kila mwenye fedha duniani.
Faida ya kutaifisha kila kitu kisha baada ya hali za wazawa kuwa nyanya kulegeza ili kila mwenye nia mbaya aibake nchi yetu ni nini?
Mandela aliona mbali sana na alikuwa right.
Ni kweli mkuu, ukichukulia kwa wakati ule suala la ubaguzi wa rangi lilivyokua kwake kupata uhuru wa kisiasa ilikua ni jambo pekee alilokua analipigania, tatizo linakuja pale makaburu walivyoweza kucheza na fursa ya kubadilishana huo uhuru wa kisiasa na Mandela wakati wao wanaendelea kufaidi rasilimali za weusi, kimsingi makaburu walishinda na kwa vyovyote siasa za kibaguzi zisingeweza kuendelea milele.
 
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
2,941
Likes
288
Points
180
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined Mar 31, 2007
2,941 288 180
Mkuu hapo tuko pamoja, huo ukombozi wa fikra tatizo ni kwamba, hawa jamaa weupe wanafanya kila njia kuhakikisha hatuupati.Na wanakuja na propaganda za kujidai kutusaidia kupata huo ukombozi wa fikra wakati ki ukweli nia yao ya dhati ni kuhakikisha tunabaki katika hii hali milele.
...umewahi kujiuliza, umasikini wa fikra humsaidia nani? watu weupe hawafanyi kila njia, bali, ni uzembe wetu wenye.

...je, wao ndio wanaosomesha watoto wetu shule bila walimu, vitabu, madawati, chakula, n.k.?

Na ndio maana leo hii kiongozi yeyote anaetaka kuja na sera za kutowanyeyekea sana weupe watafanya kila njia kumpinga na kuhakikisha anaonekana hawezi lolote hata kwa wananchi wake. Mfano mdogo ni Gaddafi na Mugabe mkuu.
...sera za kutowanyenyekea wazungu ni zipi? kusema hautatumia dola ya Marekani kama legal tender, wakati, hela yako haina thamani, na wafanyabiashara wako wote, na hata serikali yako, inatumia dola?

...Gaddafi na Mugabe ni watu wawili tofauti.

Bottom line, hatuwezi kutoka hapa tulipo kwa msaada wa wazungu.
...msaada upi unaongelea? maana, hata huu mtandao tunaotumia -kwa maana ya internet na social networks- umebuniwa na wazungu.

...tunasoma kwenye vyuo vya wazungu. tunatumia madawa na vifaa tiba walivyobuni wao. hata vitabu katika mashule!

...cha msingi si msaada -tafsiri ya msaada inahitajika hapa- unatoka kwa nani, bali, unatumikaje kuleta maendeleo na hivyo kutukwamua "kutoka hapa".
 
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
12,371
Likes
18,170
Points
280
The Monk

The Monk

Platinum Member
Joined Oct 12, 2012
12,371 18,170 280
...umewahi kujiuliza, umasikini wa fikra humsaidia nani? watu weupe hawafanyi kila njia, bali, ni uzembe wetu wenye.

...je, wao ndio wanaosomesha watoto wetu shule bila walimu, vitabu, madawati, chakula, n.k.?
Hapo kwenye uzembe ndio umasikini wenyewe huo, yaani tunashindwa kujua kwamba uzembe unatufanya tusiendelee?
Na hata mifumo ya elimu tumeipokea kutoka kwao mkuu, haiko customized kwenye mazingira yetu. Haiwezekani mtu asome hadi ngazi ya chuo bado hawezi kuwa na uwezo wa kufanya kitu kuitumia elimu yake. Imekaa kumuandaa mtu kuajiriwa zaidi.

...sera za kutowanyenyekea wazungu ni zipi? kusema hautatumia dola ya Marekani kama legal tender, wakati, hela yako haina thamani, na wafanyabiashara wako wote, na hata serikali yako, inatumia dola?
Si maanishi kutumia dola yao au vitu vyao, hapa ni kuwaachia kuja kuchukua rasilimali zetu na kuwafanya kama washirika wakuu kwenye kutatua matatizo yetu ambayo kimsingi ni mtaji wao mkubwa. Leo hii nchi gani ya magharibi itafurahia kuona tunasafisha madini yetu wenyewe hukuhuku Afrika? Tunatengeneza bidhaa hadi kiwango cha mtumiaji hapa hapa kwetu badala ya kuendelea kuuza malighafi nje kwa bei chee na kisha kuja kununua bidhaa hizo kwa bei maradufu?

...Gaddafi na Mugabe ni watu wawili tofauti.
Mugabe na Gadafi ni wazi kwamba ni watu tofauti wenye msimamo mmoja kuhusu mataifa ya magharibi.

...msaada upi unaongelea? maana, hata huu mtandao tunaotumia -kwa maana ya internet na social networks- umebuniwa na wazungu.
Nimeshaelezea hapo juu kwamba, misaada nnayoiongelea ni ile inayoifanya nchi ijikwamue kwenye dimbwi laumasikini. Mfano mikopo, ushauri wa kitaalam n.k

...tunasoma kwenye vyuo vya wazungu. tunatumia madawa na vifaa tiba walivyobuni wao. hata vitabu katika mashule!
...cha msingi si msaada -tafsiri ya msaada inahitajika hapa- unatoka kwa nani, bali, unatumikaje kuleta maendeleo na hivyo kutukwamua "kutoka hapa".
Misaada ya hawa jamaa imekua ikija na masharti kibao na hata utekelezaji wake ukija kufanyika kutokana na usimamizi mbovu, nchi hazipati faida ya moja kwa moja na hiyo misaada wakati tayari mmeshaingia madeni makubwa ya ajabuajabu.

wewe nenda mashirika mbalimbali yanayosaidia nchi kuendelea yakiwemo ya umoja wa mataifa, watakwambia wana jenga uwezo (Building capacity) watatumia billions of taxpayers money kwenye vitu kama workshorps studies na research, ni kweli kwamba hivyo vitu ni vya muhimu sana lakini serikali zetu hazitafanyia lolote la maana. Na wakati huo huo watakwambia wataalam watatoka kwao watalipwa mishahara ya kueleweka tu!

Ndio maana nikasema hata siku moja, wazungu hawana nia wala hawatakuja kuwa na nia ya dhani ya kutoa msaada wowote wenye kutukwamua kama hauna maslahi ya moja kwa moja kwao.
 
Madela Wa- Madilu

Madela Wa- Madilu

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
3,073
Likes
57
Points
135
Madela Wa- Madilu

Madela Wa- Madilu

JF-Expert Member
Joined Mar 24, 2007
3,073 57 135
Mapambano ya wanyonge kujikomboa hayaishi.
Hapa Marekani,chi iliyoendelea sana bado wananch wa kila rangii wanaendelea kupambana ili kudaai haki zao.
Ndani ya wapambanaji hawakosekani mamruki au watu wenye nia ovu.
Madai ya haki hutegemea mahali jamii ilipo kimaendeleo.
Ndiyo maana leo hii nchini Tanzania Mbunge waziri au kiongozi mwandamizi akibaka au kufanya uzinzi kwa kutumia muda na rasilimali za nchi utasikia watu wakisema hayo ni mambo binafsi. Tatizo hapo ni Mahali tulipo kimaendeleo. Fanya madudu hayo hapa Marekani? Kibarua NYASI na MITUNDURU juu.

Ni kweli mkuu, ukichukulia kwa wakati ule suala la ubaguzi wa rangi lilivyokua kwake kupata uhuru wa kisiasa ilikua ni jambo pekee alilokua analipigania, tatizo linakuja pale makaburu walivyoweza kucheza na fursa ya kubadilishana huo uhuru wa kisiasa na Mandela wakati wao wanaendelea kufaidi rasilimali za weusi, kimsingi makaburu walishinda na kwa vyovyote siasa za kibaguzi zisingeweza kuendelea milele.
 
Aleyn

Aleyn

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
11,516
Likes
15,521
Points
280
Aleyn

Aleyn

JF-Expert Member
Joined Nov 12, 2011
11,516 15,521 280
Na ndio maana weupe wameendelea kumtukuza sana Mandela kuliko hata Afrika, kama angewafukuza usingezisikia sifa zote hivi. Jamaa wapo very very strategic. Ngoja siku Mugabe akifa utaona yatakayosemwa.
Hivi Mandela angeamua kuwafukuza angeweza kweli?
 
Aleyn

Aleyn

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
11,516
Likes
15,521
Points
280
Aleyn

Aleyn

JF-Expert Member
Joined Nov 12, 2011
11,516 15,521 280
...Samaritan, labda tujiulize, weusi walioko kwenye madaraka leo hii, wamefanya kazi gani kuhakikisha maisha ya wenzao yanaboreka? au wamejisahau na wanaona bado wako picnic with a basket full of food and drinks!?

...weupe wataendelea kukamata uchumi, kwani wao wanajua nini wanafanya. hata katika hizi nchi zetu, bado weupe wameendelea kukamata uchumi.

...tunahitaji zaidi mapinduzi ya fikra, kuliko kitu kingine chechote kile. lazima tujitambue, tulipotoka, tulipo, tunakoelekea, na tunakotaka kwenda.
Well said.
 
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
2,941
Likes
288
Points
180
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined Mar 31, 2007
2,941 288 180
Mugabe na Gadafi ni wazi kwamba ni watu tofauti wenye msimamo mmoja kuhusu mataifa ya magharibi.
...hawakuwahi kuwa na msimamo mmoja. Gaddafi alifadhili ugaidi, na hakuficha hilo. Mugabe yuko obsessed na waZungu.

Ndio maana nikasema hata siku moja, wazungu hawana nia wala hawatakuja kuwa na nia ya dhani ya kutoa msaada wowote wenye kutukwamua kama hauna maslahi ya moja kwa moja kwao.
...sisi wenyewe ndio inabidi tuwe na nia, ya kweli, ya kujikwamua. hiyo si biashara ya mZungu.
 
M

Morinyo

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
2,655
Likes
692
Points
280
M

Morinyo

JF-Expert Member
Joined Aug 26, 2011
2,655 692 280
...hawakuwahi kuwa na msimamo mmoja. Gaddafi alifadhili ugaidi, na hakuficha hilo. Mugabe yuko obsessed na waZungu.

...sisi wenyewe ndio inabidi tuwe na nia, ya kweli, ya kujikwamua. hiyo si biashara ya mZungu.

Hivi nini maana halisi ya ugaidi? Mandela mwenyewe alikua kwenye orodha ya magaidi mpaka miaka yakaribuni tena ameshatoka kwenye uongozi ndo jina lake likaondolewa.
 
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
2,941
Likes
288
Points
180
D

DAR si LAMU

JF-Expert Member
Joined Mar 31, 2007
2,941 288 180
Hivi nini maana halisi ya ugaidi? Mandela mwenyewe alikua kwenye orodha ya magaidi mpaka miaka yakaribuni tena ameshatoka kwenye uongozi ndo jina lake likaondolewa.
...matendo kama ya Carlos the Jackal.
 

Forum statistics

Threads 1,252,233
Members 482,048
Posts 29,801,271