Rafiki wa mtoto wako

Mwali said:

Inawezekana lakini tutapata uhakika pale tutakapo fanya utafiti
na tafiti zenyewe zitaanza kwa ku-define nini maadili na nini mmomonyoko wa maadili
then katika ripoti lazima waangalie na huko vijijini watu hao walikotoka wamekuacha kusafi?
kwa mujibu ya hypothesis yako ni kwamba muingiliano wa watu ndio unasababisha
basi kama ni kweli tafiti itaonesha kua kule vijijini things haven't change or have improved

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Mwali
Nikujibu kipengele cha kwanza, maadili ni utii wa mira na desturi za jamii fulani, kwa hiyo ukosefu wa utii kwa mira na desturi husika ni ukosefu wa maadili.

Kuhusu comparizon ya mjini na vijijini, niseme kwa kifupi tu haya ni maeneo mawili tofauti, vijiji tofauti vilivyo mbali sana kijiografia kwa mfano vijiji vya tarime na vile vya kyera vinaweza vikawa vinafanana sana mira na desturi zao kuliko miji iliyo jirani na vijiji hivyo. the same it goes, characters za watu wa mwanza mjini zinafanana zaidi na za watu wa dar es salaaamu kuliko vijiji vilivyo katika mkoa wa mwanza.

Rural looks better.

Asante sana ndugu. sasa tuchanbue jibu lako kwa undani zaidi (just for the sake of discussing, sio kwamba you are wrong)
1. Kuhusu maadili, nani anaweka mila na desturi ya jamii? ni watu wenyewe. Na hao watu ni wewe, mimi, wazazi wetu na watoto wetu, sio? MIla na desturi were established from ONE person thinking that this should be the way, then anaaza kuwashawishi na wengine, and when there is a large number of people who think the behavior is right then the community adopts it (source: foulcaut, Bourdieux, Durkeim et al). Kama unakubaliana na reasoning hii, ina maana maadili ya leo yanaweza kua tofauti na yale ya juzi, au yale ya kesho. it is a dynamic concept.
Mbali zaidi, ONE PERSON can make the difference. Anaweza kuanzisha kitu na kikakubalika, na kesho ikawa ndio "mila". mfano: kuvaa nguo.
Sasa turudi kwenye mada yenyewe: Huo mroromoko wa maadili ambao kwa mujibu wako umezidi kuenea, na vijana ndio zaidi wanajihusisha (zingatia kua 75% of Tanzanians are under 35 years), huoni kama it is just a paradigm shift? kwamba tukubali matokeo na tuanze kujipanga because that is the new norm?

2. Rural looks better: kwa viwango gani? nani ameweka hivyo viwango kua we can use them in such an assessment?
cc: Kiranga, gfsonwin (ningependa kupata maoni yenu as a enthusiastic deconstructionist and a socioligist, respectively)

Sangarara said:

Mwali
Nikujibu kipengele cha kwanza, maadili ni utii wa mira na desturi za jamii fulani, kwa hiyo ukosefu wa utii kwa mira na desturi husika ni ukosefu wa maadili.

Kuhusu comparizon ya mjini na vijijini, niseme kwa kifupi tu haya ni maeneo mawili tofauti, vijiji tofauti vilivyo mbali sana kijiografia kwa mfano vijiji vya tarime na vile vya kyera vinaweza vikawa vinafanana sana mira na desturi zao kuliko miji iliyo jirani na vijiji hivyo. the same it goes, characters za watu wa mwanza mjini zinafanana zaidi na za watu wa dar es salaaamu kuliko vijiji vilivyo katika mkoa wa mwanza.

Rural looks better.

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Mwali said:

Asante sana ndugu. sasa tuchanbue jibu lako kwa undani zaidi (just for the sake of discussing, sio kwamba you are wrong)
1. Kuhusu maadili, nani anaweka mila na desturi ya jamii? ni watu wenyewe. Na hao watu ni wewe, mimi, wazazi wetu na watoto wetu, sio? MIla na desturi were established from ONE person thinking that this should be the way, then anaaza kuwashawishi na wengine, and when there is a large number of people who think the behavior is right then the community adopts it (source: foulcaut, Bourdieux, Durkeim et al). Kama unakubaliana na reasoning hii, ina maana maadili ya leo yanaweza kua tofauti na yale ya juzi, au yale ya kesho. it is a dynamic concept.
Mbali zaidi, ONE PERSON can make the difference. Anaweza kuanzisha kitu na kikakubalika, na kesho ikawa ndio "mila". mfano: kuvaa nguo.
Sasa turudi kwenye mada yenyewe: Huo mroromoko wa maadili ambao kwa mujibu wako umezidi kuenea, na vijana ndio zaidi wanajihusisha (zingatia kua 75% of Tanzanians are under 35 years), huoni kama it is just a paradigm shift? kwamba tukubali matokeo na tuanze kujipanga because that is the new norm?

2. Rural looks better: kwa viwango gani? nani ameweka hivyo viwango kua we can use them in such an assessment?
cc: Kiranga, gfsonwin (ningependa kupata maoni yenu as a enthusiastic deconstructionist and a socioligist, respectively)

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well narrated Mwali,
binafsi naamini katika uhuru wa mtu ila pia nakubaliana na mipaka iliyoko kisheria. i cant just say watu walioko vijijini wana maadil zaid kuliko walioko mijini kwasababu these are two different environment which are incomperable. Ni kama vile mwalimu afananishe ufaulu wa wanafunzi katika masomo mawili tofauti. huwez ukawa na ulinganifu kwenye haya kwasababu variables zina differ sana na yuo can't maintain consistency.

kwanza anayetaka kulinganisha kijijini na mjini kwa upande wa maadili atuambie ameweka variables zipi kama key issues ili sasa tuzijadili. mfano ukisema kwamba ngono may be ndo iwe variable ujue kwenye urgument yako lazima uweke factors za space, committment, finace nd readness ambazo sasa zitagovern urgument yako kwenye kudetermine wepi wanaofanya zaid. sasa utakuta kwamba hizi factors zote hazilingani kwa maisha ya mjini na kijijini. so no comparison can be made.

ukisema uweke costumes iwe variable utakuta kwamba lazima factors kama weather, occupation, readness and availability ziwepo. sasa these factors are not common yaani they do differ matokeo yake no comparison can be made.

But Mwali society dynamisim inamatter sana kwenye behaviour change. na kwamba jins jamii inavyobadilika kutokana na dini, siasa, uchumi, biashara nk basi tabia na zenyewe hubadilika and what determines kwamba hii tabia ni mbaya ama ni njema ni jamii husika na sio mara zote jamii hii itakuwa sahihi kwenye definition ya norms zake.

gfsonwin said:

well narrated Mwali,
binafsi naamini katika uhuru wa mtu ila pia nakubaliana na mipaka iliyoko kisheria. i cant just say watu walioko vijijini wana maadil zaid kuliko walioko mijini kwasababu these are two different environment which are incomperable. Ni kama vile mwalimu afananishe ufaulu wa wanafunzi katika masomo mawili tofauti. huwez ukawa na ulinganifu kwenye haya kwasababu variables zina differ sana na yuo can't maintain consistency.

kwanza anayetaka kulinganisha kijijini na mjini kwa upande wa maadili atuambie ameweka variables zipi kama key issues ili sasa tuzijadili. mfano ukisema kwamba ngono may be ndo iwe variable ujue kwenye urgument yako lazima uweke factors za space, committment, finace nd readness ambazo sasa zitagovern urgument yako kwenye kudetermine wepi wanaofanya zaid. sasa utakuta kwamba hizi factors zote hazilingani kwa maisha ya mjini na kijijini. so no comparison can be made.

ukisema uweke costumes iwe variable utakuta kwamba lazima factors kama weather, occupation, readness and availability ziwepo. sasa these factors are not common yaani they do differ matokeo yake no comparison can be made.

But Mwali society dynamisim inamatter sana kwenye behaviour change. na kwamba jins jamii inavyobadilika kutokana na dini, siasa, uchumi, biashara nk basi tabia na zenyewe hubadilika and what determines kwamba hii tabia ni mbaya ama ni njema ni jamii husika na sio mara zote jamii hii itakuwa sahihi kwenye definition ya norms zake.

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Hapo in bold, that's precisely my point. Is there anything as an ABSOLUTE TRUTH ambayo ndio sahihi? au we fabricate our own truth? unajuaje kua haya maamuzi ni sahihi?
Tuchukue mfano wa kukeketa. From most of the western-minded it is a barbarian practice and MUST be abolished. But ukiingia kwenye jamii husika they have their own narrative which makes sense and which holds the community together. sasa who decides kua wanaume kutahiriwa is right, na wanawake kukeketwa is wrong? si ni wau tu? and they make it a norm?
my wuestion is: who decides kua this norm is sahihi, and this norm althaugh widely accepted is not sahihi?

Mwali said:

Hapo in bold, that's precisely my point. Is there anything as an ABSOLUTE TRUTH ambayo ndio sahihi? au we fabricate our own truth? unajuaje kua haya maamuzi ni sahihi?
Tuchukue mfano wa kukeketa. From most of the western-minded it is a barbarian practice and MUST be abolished. But ukiingia kwenye jamii husika they have their own narrative which makes sense and which holds the community together. sasa who decides kua wanaume kutahiriwa is right, na wanawake kukeketwa is wrong? si ni wau tu? and they make it a norm?
my wuestion is: who decides kua this norm is sahihi, and this norm althaugh widely accepted is not sahihi?

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Mwali kuna jambo moja ambalo nafikiri bado miongoni mwetu halieleweki. ni kwamba kila jamii huish kulingana na matakwa yao na wao binafsi huona hii ni nzuri kwao. sasa basi ugumu huja zaid pale ambapo mimi society B ninapotaka kuinduce my norms into society B which has its norms already.

nikija kwenye mfano wa ukeketaji despite having so many evidences ziki urgue kwamba wanawake waliokeketwa wanaathirika vipi but still hii sio logic kabisa kwa jamii ambayo imezoea kufanya hivyo na hawajawah kuona hizo athari. kwamfano kijijini kwetu those days watu walikeketwa sana tu, and walikuwa wanazalia nyumban (ukunga wa jadi) but walizaa watt hadi 6----- sasa unapomwambia mbibi wa kijijini kwamba hii ni mbaya wakati yy kakeketwa na kazaa 7 bila kutokwa na damu nying anakuona kama mwongo.

ndipo ambapo sasa tunakuja kuconclude kwamba norms from a different society zinapotaka kuwa induced kwenye jamii tofauti hujengewa urgument za kuififisha kabisa. so its just a matter of playing with pple in that socoiety if you play it good wataadopt norm zako if you dont utazidi kucreate matatizo zaid.

gfsonwin said:

Mwali kuna jambo moja ambalo nafikiri bado miongoni mwetu halieleweki. ni kwamba kila jamii huish kulingana na matakwa yao na wao binafsi huona hii ni nzuri kwao. sasa basi ugumu huja zaid pale ambapo mimi society B ninapotaka kuinduce my norms into society B which has its norms already.

nikija kwenye mfano wa ukeketaji despite having so many evidences ziki urgue kwamba wanawake waliokeketwa wanaathirika vipi but still hii sio logic kabisa kwa jamii ambayo imezoea kufanya hivyo na hawajawah kuona hizo athari. kwamfano kijijini kwetu those days watu walikeketwa sana tu, and walikuwa wanazalia nyumban (ukunga wa jadi) but walizaa watt hadi 6----- sasa unapomwambia mbibi wa kijijini kwamba hii ni mbaya wakati yy kakeketwa na kazaa 7 bila kutokwa na damu nying anakuona kama mwongo.

ndipo ambapo sasa tunakuja kuconclude kwamba norms from a different society zinapotaka kuwa induced kwenye jamii tofauti hujengewa urgument za kuififisha kabisa. so its just a matter of playing with pple in that socoiety if you play it good wataadopt norm zako if you dont utazidi kucreate matatizo zaid.

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Fair enough. So from your own reasoning Kitu kinaweza kua kibaya kwa akina A, kikawa kizuri kwa akina B, sio?
Sasa ulipo sema "sio mara zote jamii itakua sahihi kwenye definition ya norms zake" ulimaanisha sahihi from whom point of view?
Na tukirudi kwenye mada, Sangarara anasema kuna "mromoko"wa maadili ambao umekumbatiwa na vijana wengi. na mimi najua kua jamii yetu ni jamii ya vijana zaidi, so huo mromoko si unaweza kua ni mwanzo wa cultural shift?

Mwali said:

Fair enough. So from your own reasoning Kitu kinaweza kua kibaya kwa akina A, kikawa kizuri kwa akina B, sio?
Sasa ulipo sema "sio mara zote jamii itakua sahihi kwenye definition ya norms zake" ulimaanisha sahihi from whom point of view?
Na tukirudi kwenye mada, Sangarara anasema kuna "mromoko"wa maadili ambao umekumbatiwa na vijana wengi. na mimi najua kua jamii yetu ni jamii ya vijana zaidi, so huo mromoko si unaweza kua ni mwanzo wa cultural shift?

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nilimaanisha kwamba sahihi from the observor like kama mimi may be naweza ona sahihi kumnunulia mwanangu Klein gari at his 17's lakini mtu kama Mzee wa Rula ama wewe ukaona sio sahihi na hata ukajenga hoja ya kutaka kuniout smart kwamba siko sahihi kufanya hivyo. But mwisho wa siku what i will look at ni je kwa kufanya hivi ni na infringe any law?? if not its ok

anyway huo 'MROMOKO' of which naamin alimaanisha MPOROMOKO maadili kukumbatiwa na vijana bado ni swala tete kidogo. labda angetuambia jamii yetu imedefine vipi norms zake na je kwa clusters zipi like hiki kifanywe na watu wa rika gani, ndipo ninaweza kujadili hoja yake manake nitakuwa na uwanja mpana wa kujidadavua.

lakini pia cultural shift lazima iwe na marking point, kwamba sasa hapa tukubadili kwamba jamii inabadilika. nafikiri tukiangalia kwa umakini wazazi wetu walikuwa na enzi sio?? and baadhi ya walichokifanya i suppose kilionekana kuwa ni curse kwenye jamii ya waliowatangulia yaani baba zao(babu zetu). sasa sisi tumekuja baadhi ya tuyafanyayo yanaonekana ni curse vilevile and tukifanya projection basi kwa successors wetu inaweza ikawa worse zaid.

haya yote yanatokana na evolution of the society i terms of social, technology, economy, and political.

gfsonwin said:

nilimaanisha kwamba sahihi from the observor like kama mimi may be naweza ona sahihi kumnunulia mwanangu Klein gari at his 17's lakini mtu kama Mzee wa Rula ama wewe ukaona sio sahihi na hata ukajenga hoja ya kutaka kuniout smart kwamba siko sahihi kufanya hivyo. But mwisho wa siku what i will look at ni je kwa kufanya hivi ni na infringe any law?? if not its ok

anyway huo 'MROMOKO' of which naamin alimaanisha MPOROMOKO maadili kukumbatiwa na vijana bado ni swala tete kidogo. labda angetuambia jamii yetu imedefine vipi norms zake na je kwa clusters zipi like hiki kifanywe na watu wa rika gani, ndipo ninaweza kujadili hoja yake manake nitakuwa na uwanja mpana wa kujidadavua.

lakini pia cultural shift lazima iwe na marking point, kwamba sasa hapa tukubadili kwamba jamii inabadilika. nafikiri tukiangalia kwa umakini wazazi wetu walikuwa na enzi sio?? and baadhi ya walichokifanya i suppose kilionekana kuwa ni curse kwenye jamii ya waliowatangulia yaani baba zao(babu zetu). sasa sisi tumekuja baadhi ya tuyafanyayo yanaonekana ni curse vilevile and tukifanya projection basi kwa successors wetu inaweza ikawa worse zaid.

haya yote yanatokana na evolution of the society i terms of social, technology, economy, and political.

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Nakuelewa sana tu (mengi nakubaliana), ila point yangu naona hujaielewa.
Hayo maneno in bold hapo juu, ni kwa mujibu wa nani? who says it's worse?
my point s: hakuna anaye weza kusema kua this is absolute truth, ot not
hakuna anae weza kusema this is completely wrong, or this is acceptable IN ABSOLUTE
kila kitu ni kulingana na mazingira, makubaliano, wahusika, the period etc.
Na kila kitu KINAWEZA BADILIKA. it wasn't always that way, it doesn't have to be.
na MPOROMOKO wa maadili leo hweza kutafsiriwa kama an evolution of culture kesho

kufahamu marafiki na wazazi wa marafiki wa motto wako si muhimu sana labda kama mazingira yatalazimisha iwe hivyo. wewe deal na mtoto wako tuu.

Mwali said:

Nakuelewa sana tu (mengi nakubaliana), ila point yangu naona hujaielewa.
Hayo maneno in bold hapo juu, ni kwa mujibu wa nani? who says it's worse?
my point s: hakuna anaye weza kusema kua this is absolute truth, ot not
hakuna anae weza kusema this is completely wrong, or this is acceptable IN ABSOLUTE
kila kitu ni kulingana na mazingira, makubaliano, wahusika, the period etc.
Na kila kitu KINAWEZA BADILIKA. it wasn't always that way, it doesn't have to be.
na MPOROMOKO wa maadili leo hweza kutafsiriwa kama an evolution of culture kesho

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ss bibie hapa ataka kudefine kwamba hakuna benchmark ya wrong or right? nafikiri kwamba kila jamii huwa ina define norms zake na hii ni just to have disciplined and active citizens. sasa ukisema kwamba ho says this is right ni society yenyewe na anayesema this is wrong ni mtu kwenye society nyingine.

Mwali na gfsonwin
salute kwa michango yenu, mmeupanua huu mjadala kwa namna ya kipekee kabisa, nitajaburi kuchangia hoja zenu moja baada ya nyingine katika posts tofautitofauti.

Umezungumzia swala la nani anasimika mira na desturi katika jamii yetu, nakubalina na wewe kwamba ni lazima awepo at least mtu mmoja wa kuanzia practice fulani katika jamii, na inafikia kuitwa mira na desturi ya jamii husika pale ambapo inakuwa inakubarika na majority ya jamii husika.

Binafsi napozungumzia jamii yetu namaanisha Tanzania kama Taifa,bila kujari ni mjini wala vijijini, natambua utoauti mkubwa uliopo katika practice za kimaisha kati ya mjini na vijijini, lakini nyingi kama zio zote hapo nyuma kidogo zilikuwa zinafanana pia bila kujarisha makabila mengi tuliyonayo nchini.

Angalia lugha ya Kiswahili, imekuwa ni msingi mkubwa wa utaifa wetu, mira na desturi za kitanzania, hapo nyuma ilikuwa nadra sana hata miongoni mwa watu wazima kutumia maneno fulani katika kuelezea kitu, kwa mfano tunapozungumzia uke, au umme kama sehemu za maungo yetu, tofauti na sasa, hapa JF tukifanya research kidogo tu, tutakuta leo peke yake viungo hivi vimetamkwa bila aibu wala kuumauma maneno kwa namna yoyote ile, hata huku mitaani, sio jambo la ajabu hasa miongoni mwa vijana kukuta maneno nadra kutumika yanatumika hadharani bila kujali nani yuko kwenye hadhara hiyo.

Well, Jamii yetu ni ya vijana, lakini hii haiondoi ukweli kwamba matumizi ya lugha ile ile sasa yakubarike zaidi kwa vijana wakati hapo nyuma hayakutumika namna na vijana. Hapa lazima kuna tatizo kwa vijana wa sasa, ni nini kimejitokeza?

Angalia matumizi ya madawa ya Kulevya na vilevi, tuchukulie haya ya kawaida tu, Bangi, Gomba, Pombe, hapo nyuma kidogo mtu kujurikana anatumia bangi alikuwa anaonekana kama outcast, wavuta bangi wenyewe walikuwa wanajificha kwenye maboma au kusubiri usiku uingie, lakini sasa kuvaa TShirt au kofia yenye brand ya bangi ni sifa, na matumizi ya bangi sio issue huku mtaani, hata mabinti sasa wanavuta bangi kwa kasi kama ya vijana. sio kwamba bangi hazikuwapo hapo nyuma wala pombe. why now?

the list is endless.