Nyerere: Salaam zenu mnaomkejeli!

Mr Right,
Asikudanganye mtu kabisa Tanzania tulikuwa hatuna kitu kuingia Free market economy tena basi ndio tungewajenga Kenya vibaya sana kwa sababu viwanda vyote vya mali zote zilizokuwa zikipatikana Tanzania baada ya UHuru to 1967 na kabla wakati wa Ukoloni zilitoka Kenya. Tanzania palikuwa patupu kabisa sasa wewe nambie utaingiaje ktk market economy wakati huna viwanda wala mtaji halafu wasomi wenyewe sijui wanne Tanzania nzima...

Jamani kuweni wakweli ktk fikra zenu yaani kweli unafikiri ombeomba wa pale msikiti wa Ijumaa ukimkabidhi kiwanda kitaweza kufanikiwa kwa sababu ya free market..Wewe mwenyewe umesema free market economy inahitaji foundation which we never had na hadi leo hii hatuna kwa sababu alichofganya Nyerere ndani ya Ujamaa ni kujenga foundation yetu wenyewe kwanza tuwe tunajitegemea wenyewe toka ukulima hadi uzalishaji kwa maana kwamba Ukulima ndio ungezaa kazi viwandani.

Nyerere hakupanga exit yake 1977 tena nadhani ndio ulikuwa wakati ana nguvu kubwa na naweza sema ktk Pick iwe ktk Afrika au dunia...ni wakati alopata mitihani mingi zaidi kwa sababu hiyo maana ndio wakati Kenya , Malawi na Uganda nao walianza chokochoko zao baada ya kuanguka kwa EAC na akataka kuijenga Tanzania yenye uwezo wake pekee..Na kuhusu Elimu Marekani hawana model nzuri ya kusifia hata kidogo. Haya maswala ya kuiga mtayaacha lini jamani...Mtu kamaliza chuo kikuu hajui hata nchi yake mwenyewe!

Mkandara said:

Mr Right,
Asikudanganye mtu kabisa Tanzania tulikuwa hatuna kitu kuingia Free market economy tena basi ndio tungewajenga Kenya vibaya sana kwa sababu viwanda vyote vya mali zote zilizokuwa zikipatikana Tanzania baada ya UHuru to 1967 na kabla wakati wa Ukoloni zilitoka Kenya. Tanzania palikuwa patupu kabisa sasa wewe nambie utaingiaje ktk market economy wakati huna viwanda wala mtaji halafu wasomi wenyewe sijui wanne Tanzania nzima...

Jamani kuweni wakweli ktk fikra zenu yaani kweli unafikiri ombeomba wa pale msikiti wa Ijumaa ukimkabidhi kiwanda kitaweza kufanikiwa kwa sababu ya free market..Wewe mwenyewe umesema free market economy inahitaji foundation which we never had na hadi leo hii hatuna kwa sababu alichofganya Nyerere ndani ya Ujamaa ni kujenga foundation yetu wenyewe kwanza tuwe tunajitegemea wenyewe toka ukulima hadi uzalishaji kwa maana kwamba Ukulima ndio ungezaa kazi viwandani.

Nyerere hakupanga exit yake 1977 tena nadhani ndio ulikuwa wakati na nguvu zake kubwa naweza sema ktk Pick... maana ndio wakati Kenya , Malawi na Uganda walianza chokochoko zao baada ya kuanguka kwa EAC na akataka kuijenga Tanzania yenye uwezo wake pekee..

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Kuwa na market economy siyo lazima uwe na viwanda. Tungeanza kwa kuweka misingi kwa wananchi wenyewe kifikra, kielimu, nk. Hata kama Kenya kulikuwa na viwanda vingi- sisi tungekuwa na system nzuri ambayo indivudual wenyewe ndiyo wangekuwa na maamuzi yao wenyewe na siyo kupangiwa na Serikali. Moja ya tatizo kubwa la Ujamaa ni kuwafanya WTZ kuwa wategemezi wa Serikali. Ujamaa umefanya nchi yetu mpaka leo kuwa na hope only ya kufanya kazi serikalini ili uwe na maisha mazuri.

Sasa hivi vijana wengi TZ, wanamaliza shule wanategemea kuajiriwa na serikali. Hii ni philosophy ya Ujamaa ambayo bado mpaka leo inatumaliza. Nchi changa duniani zimeweza kuendelea very fast kwa kutegemea zadi Human capital halafu baadae ndiyo ikaja mambo hayo ya viwanada. Na hiyo philosophy huwezi kuwa nayo unless umelelewa na kufundisha ktk mazingira ya market economy. Nyerere alikuwa na uwezo wa kuwafanya WTZ, kuwa na independent mind set, lakini hakutaka. Alitaka "fikra za Mwenyekiti zidumu milele" Huo ndiyo mzimu unaotukumba sasa hivi.

Hiyo point ya mwisho, Nyerere 1977 baadaye, 78,79, vita vya Uganda. Nchi ilikuwa ktk hali mbaya. Kila mtu anajua matokeo ya vita. Hali ilianza ngumu, ndiyo maana Nyerere alianza kupanga exit yake.

Mkandara said:

Mr Right,
Asikudanganye mtu kabisa Tanzania tulikuwa hatuna kitu kuingia Free market economy tena basi ndio tungewajenga Kenya vibaya sana kwa sababu viwanda vyote vya mali zote zilizokuwa zikipatikana Tanzania baada ya UHuru to 1967 na kabla wakati wa Ukoloni zilitoka Kenya. Tanzania palikuwa patupu kabisa sasa wewe nambie utaingiaje ktk market economy wakati huna viwanda wala mtaji halafu wasomi wenyewe sijui wanne Tanzania nzima...

Jamani kuweni wakweli ktk fikra zenu yaani kweli unafikiri ombeomba wa pale msikiti wa Ijumaa ukimkabidhi kiwanda kitaweza kufanikiwa kwa sababu ya free market..Wewe mwenyewe umesema free market economy inahitaji foundation which we never had na hadi leo hii hatuna kwa sababu alichofganya Nyerere ndani ya Ujamaa ni kujenga foundation yetu wenyewe kwanza tuwe tunajitegemea wenyewe toka ukulima hadi uzalishaji kwa maana kwamba Ukulima ndio ungezaa kazi viwandani.

Nyerere hakupanga exit yake 1977 tena nadhani ndio ulikuwa wakati ana nguvu kubwa na naweza sema ktk Pick iwe ktk Afrika au dunia...ni wakati alopata mitihani mingi zaidi kwa sababu hiyo maana ndio wakati Kenya , Malawi na Uganda nao walianza chokochoko zao baada ya kuanguka kwa EAC na akataka kuijenga Tanzania yenye uwezo wake pekee..Na kuhusu Elimu Marekani hawana model nzuri ya kusifia hata kidogo. Haya maswala ya kuiga mtayaacha lini jamani...Mtu kamaliza chuo kikuu hajui hata nchi yake mwenyewe!

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Mr. Right anatumia sana text book knowledge bila ya kuangalia mapungufu ya free market ni yepi in practice; Jinsi gani Afrika ilikuwa integrated into the global capitalist system; what transpired in different countries accross the continent i.e. settler economies vs plantation economies vs protectorates..; na changamoto gani zilibakia baada ya uhuru ambao ulitawaliwa na ukoloni mamboleo...; na hata sidhani kama anajua anything about dependency theory;

Huwa namuuliza swali moja ambalo huwa anakwepa kulijibu:

* Ni nani anao wajua barani Africa ambao wao walifuata hiyo free market mara tu baada ya uhuru na wapo wapi sasahivi kimaendeleo ukifananisha na sisi?

Pia hajui kwamba hata kwa wenzetu walioendelea (US, UK), serikali zilijikita sana katika uchumi, tena kupitiliza hata mwalimu wakati wa ujamaa; Sidhani hata kama anajua role of the government miaka ya nyuma in these industrialized countries of today, hata zile new asian tigers; Pia sidhani kama anamjua John Maynard Keynes; uelewa wake wa mambo in practice ni mdogo sana, ila anajitahidi kuelewa kwenye theories kwenye vitabu, which is good;
Mtu yoyote ambae unapenda uchumi, you need to have a base or school of thought where you belong, kuna so many schools of thought ambazo zipo out there for mtu kutumia to build your argument, yeye hana, anayumba huku, mara kule, kupelekea hoja zake kutokuwa na mashiko;

Mkandara said:

Mr Right,
Na kuhusu Elimu Marekani hawana model nzuri ya kusifia hata kidogo. Haya maswala ya kuiga mtayaacha lini jamani...Mtu kamaliza chuo kikuu hajui hata nchi yake mwenyewe!

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USA kuna Public school, State school, Private school, na Ivy league school. System ya shule zao ambazo wengi watu kutoka nchi za nje wanatamani kuingia ni Ivy league. Unajua Marekani kuna level ya education ambayo ni tofauti kabisa na nchi zengine. Shule zao zina madaraja based na achievement zako. Kuna Ivy league ambazo ni dream ya kila mwananfunzi duniani kuingia ktk hizo shule. Kuna opportunity kubwa iwapo utafanikiwa kugraduate ktk hizo shule za Ivy.

Hizo daraja zinawafanya Wamerakani na wengineo duniani wajitume ili waweze kufanikiwa kuingia ktk hizo shule. Sipo kucompare na nchi nyengine. Lakini kuna matajiri wakubwa, viongozi wakubwa duniani, wametoka ktk hizo shule. Na admission yake inataka mwananfunzi awepo ktk stardand level fulani ya achievement. Na hiyo level za school zimetokana na mfumo wa market economy.

Kwa hiyo, toa crediti yake inapotakiwa.

Mr.Right said:

USA kuna Public school, State school, Private school, na Ivy league school. System ya shule zao ambazo wengi watu kutoka nchi za nje wanatamani kuingia ni Ivy league. Unajua Marekani kuna level ya education ambayo ni tofauti kabisa na nchi zengine. Shule zao zina madaraja based na achievement zako. Kuna Ivy league ambazo ni dream ya kila mwananfunzi duniani kuingia ktk hizo shule. Kuna opportunity kubwa iwapo utafanikiwa kugraduate ktk hizo shule za Ivy.

Hizo daraja zinawafanya Wamerakani na wengineo duniani wajitume ili waweze kufanikiwa kuingia ktk hizo shule. Sipo kucompare na nchi nyengine. Lakini kuna matajiri wakubwa, viongozi wakubwa duniani, wametoka ktk hizo shule. Na admission yake inataka mwananfunzi awepo ktk stardand level fulani ya achievement. Na hiyo level za school zimetokana na mfumo wa market economy.

Kwa hiyo, toa crediti yake inapotakiwa.

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Hivi Mr Right, do you know how poor of a system it is marekani - education wise compared to other countries zilizoendelea? Jana ulikuwa unajadili na mtu na kuisema vibaya sana nchi kama finland; ebu angalia nchi za Scandinavia versus marekani in terms of ubora wa elimu, utajifunza mengi; usijidanganye kwamba US ndio the right model, hata wao wanajua hilo halina ukweli wowote;

Mchambuzi said:

Sidhani hata kama anamjua John Maynard Keynes; uelewa wake wa mambo in practice ni mdogo sana, ila anajitahidi kuelewa kwenye theories kwenye vitabu, which is good;

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Here we go na Economic 101,

Najua utawaingiza wote ambao unaona wana philosophy za government intervene. Akiwemo huyo John Keynes. Unajaribu kuleta ubishi wa kizamani. Baadaye utasema Karl Marx.

Nimeshapita huko siku nyingi.

Mr.Right said:

Chama,

Umecdhanganya mambo mengi sana. Umeanza na USA ukaenda mpaka Afrika, baadaye ukaenda mpaka Europe.

Anyway, issue ya market economy kuwa siyo perfect, hiyo kila mtu anajua. Lakini huwezi kuchukua protectionism zinazofanyika sasa hivi ktk kila nchi kublame market economy. Marekani ni nchi iliyofanikiwa sana duniani kwa muda mfupi kuliko nchi yoyote duniani. Marekani ina less than 235 years lakini maendeleo iliyopata ni makubwa sana. Na hiyo credit yote inapewa market economy.

Suala la protectionism. Sasa hivi nchi nyingi duniani zimeangia ktk mfumo huu bila ya kujua core principles za market economy na nchi nyengine zinaignore kwa makusudi, kama vile China. Ndiyo maana unakuta kuna mashindano au mabishano ktk import and export. Marekani walioengeza some tarrif ktk goods kutoka China, na China wakajibu kwa kuongeza import tarrif ktk goods zinazotoka USA. Hii issue ilitokea kwa sababu kuna some products ambazo zinapewa subsidize na government. Kwa hiyo USA waka argue kwamba hiyo ndiyo reason ya kuongeza hizo tarrif ktk Chinese goods. Kumbuka free market inataka market ndiyo idetermined who gets what.

To be honest, sasa hivi nchi nyingi ambazo zilikuwa ktk Ujamaa zimeingia ktk market economy, lakini bado serikali zao ndizo zinatumia hela nyingi ktk kampuni zao. Chukulia Emirates, serikali yao imeorder ndege Boeing nyingi sana, kupita hata mashirika makubwa ya ndege kama AA. Kwa hiyo issue hiyo, ya kuongeza tarrif or so called protectionism itaendendelea kuwepo as long serikali za nchi za former Ujamaa zitaendelea kucontrol hizo kampuni kubwa za biashara.

Unauliza kwa nini Marekani inapigania kuwa na middle class na siyo milionaire? Hiyo issue lazima iwepo ktk market economy. Lazima iwepo different class of citizen in order for market economy to survive. Ujamaa unapozungumzia fairness unamaanisha distribution of wealth. Kila raia awe ktk same level!! Hiyo ndiyo philosophy ya Ujamaa aliyokuwa anaipigania Nyerere. Anataka Ujamaa ili tule chakula kimoja, kuvaa nguo design moja, elimu moja.

Chukulia mfano, elimu iliyopo Marekani, kuna public school, state school, private school, na Ivy league school. Angalia ktk forum kama vile College Confidential demand ya watu wanaotaka kwenda ktk hizo Ivy league. Sasa kama ingekuwa same level usingeona bidiii ya wanafunzi ya kufanya ziada ktk masomo, community services, leadership skills ktk kujaribu kutaka kuingia ktk hizo shule za Ivy.

Ndiyo maana, nimesema Ujamaa umetufanya tuwe wategemezi. Kama tungekuwa na market economy tungekuwa mbali; kwa sababu kila mtu angetaka kufanya vizuri ili areach level fulani ya maisha. By the way, watu wengi wanakuwa millionaire in USA , ni bidii yako tu.

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Mr. Right
Hili somo ni pana sana JF panaweza kuwa padogo; lakini nitajaribu kadri ya uwezo wangu:

Free Market
Hizi ni theories tu hakuna hata nchi moja imeweza kutekeleza hili; tunarudi pale pale serikal husika lazima ilinde maslahi ya Taifa; hata Marekani wanalinda maslahi ya Taifa lao ndio sababu kuna vyomo kama EPA; FDA; suala zima ni kulinda bidhaa za zinazozilishwa Marekani

Proctenism
Lengo ni kulinda viwanda vya nchi husika; hakuna hata nchi mmoja duniani imeweza kupiga hatua bila kutekeleza hili; lengo kubwa ni kulinda ajira ya wananchi; bila ajira hakuna maendeleo; kuna mahusiano makubwa kati ya ajira na maenedeleo; bila ajira kodi hakuna, bila kodi huwezi kuwa na pesa za kukabili miradi ya maendeleo. Nadhani bado hujaelewa kwa nini Marekani wanapigania middle class soma zaidi; nakupa hint Employment>Taxation fanya utafiti
Elimu
Unataka kusema elimu inayotolewa Havard ni bora kuliko University of Carlifonia-Barkley? Ninachofahamu mimi zipo board sita ambazo zinatoa credentials kwa vyuo vikuu na vipo vyuo vinapata accreditation na state; kama chuo chako kipo accredited na hizo board sita kama middle states commission on higher education hiko chuo elimu yake inakubalika na kutambulika Marekani na Canada.
Umaskini
Umasikini wa Tanzania haukusababisha na siasa za ujamaa zipo nchi nyingi za Afrika hazikufuata siasa hizo na ni masikini kuliko sisi; fanya utafiti umasikini wa nchi za Afrika umesababishwa na nini; hint Kenya hawakuwahi wa wajamaa nini kinakwamisha maendeleo yao? Hata Marekani kuna watu wanaishi under poverty level nje kidogo ya Mobile Alabama kuna mji kama utamatoa mtu Manzese na ukamwambia upo Marekani atakuambia nirudishe Manzese; kama umewahi kwenda kwenye estates za mikonge na chai basi hali ndiyo kama hiyo. Hapo ukitaka Gongo la mahindi unapata kama kawaida; nje kidogo ya Baltimore Maryland along 95 North kuna miji unaitwa Havre Grace; Dundalk kajione mwenyewe kote huko nilipita kwenye research studies.
Emirates:
Wao wameamua kufanya investment kwenye biashara ya Anga; ni sawa na Ethiopia walivyoamua kuinvest kwenye biashara ya anga; hivi sasa Ethiopia Airline inachangia karibu nusu ya bajeti ya Ethiopia; kwa wanachofanya Emirates ni kuhakikisha kuwa wanaushindani mkubwa kibiashara, si nchi zote za uarabuni zina hazina ya kutosha ya mafuta.
Marakani imepata uhuru miaka 400 iliyopita, imewachukua miaka 235; sisi ndio kwanza tumeanza safari hilo tuachie vizazi vijavyo watajadili failure/success zetu

Subsidize
Sheria za WTO ambazo Marekani ni mmoja wa wanachama zinakataza serikali kutoa subsidize kwenye mashirika; tatizo nchi husika zintoa upendeleo wa kibishara na hiyo ndio sababu utakuta kuna misuguano ya kibiashara mfano kuna msuaguano uanendelea kati ya Boeing na Airbus

Ujamaa
Sikuwahi kusikia Mwl. Nyerere akiwalazimisha Wahaya wavae kanzu na barghashia, au wazaramu wale matoke.

Chama
Gongo la Mboto DSM

Mr.Right said:

Kuwa na market economy siyo lazima uwe na viwanda. Tungeanza kwa kuweka misingi kwa wananchi wenyewe kifikra, kielimu, nk. Hata kama Kenya kulikuwa na viwanda vingi- sisi tungekuwa na system nzuri ambayo indivudual wenyewe ndiyo wangekuwa na maamuzi yao wenyewe na siyo kupangiwa na Serikali. Moja ya tatizo kubwa la Ujamaa ni kuwafanya WTZ kuwa wategemezi wa Serikali. Ujamaa umefanya nchi yetu mpaka leo kuwa na hope only ya kufanya kazi serikalini ili uwe na maisha mazuri.

Sasa hivi vijana wengi TZ, wanamaliza shule wanategemea kuajiriwa na serikali. Hii ni philosophy ya Ujamaa ambayo bado mpaka leo inatumaliza. Nchi changa duniani zimeweza kuendelea very fast kwa kutegemea zadi Human capital halafu baadae ndiyo ikaja mambo hayo ya viwanada. Na hiyo philosophy huwezi kuwa nayo unless umelelewa na kufundisha ktk mazingira ya market economy. Nyerere alikuwa na uwezo wa kuwafanya WTZ, kuwa na independent mind set, lakini hakutaka. Alitaka "fikra za Mwenyekiti zidumu milele" Huo ndiyo mzimu unaotukumba sasa hivi.

Hiyo point ya mwisho, Nyerere 1977 baadaye, 78,79, vita vya Uganda. Nchi ilikuwa ktk hali mbaya. Kila mtu anajua matokeo ya vita. Hali ilianza ngumu, ndiyo maana Nyerere alianza kupanga exit yake.

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What? ... mkuu wangu nimeshakwambia asikudanganye mtu hata mmoja. Historia ya diunia nzima imeanza na kulazimishwa watu kuunda Taifa walitakalo watawala. Ulaya wakati wa vita ndio walijenga nchi zao na walilazimishwa kuhama kukaa na hata kuzalisha ili wapate kuendelea ndani. Hawa hawa wanaozungumza free market economy ndio walikuja tafuta watumwa kwenda fanya kazi za kipunda kuzijenga nchi zao toka Pharaoh, Julius kaizal, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Kinga, Queen you name them all. hawa walianza na serikali za Kidikteta kuliko hata sisi tena kwa muda mrefu zaidi...They all depended on their government, banks na financial institutions within their country kama Nyerere alivyofanya kwa wakulima wetu walipewa mikopo na maeneo na ndio maana uzalishaji nchini ulizidi mara mbili kufikia miaka 1975..Check the records.

Mzungu anaposema free market economy wanajua kwamba wananchi wake wanaweza kubuni na kupata mikopo ya kuanzisha miradi, kutafuta soko na hata kuwekeza nchi za nje sisi kabuntasi tulikuwa hatujui hata kutengeneza shanga acha mbali kutokuwa na mtaji leo unazungumzia Free market economy!..at what level though.. Huko nje si tungechekesha wewe mtumwa usiyekuwa na elimu huna matajiri wenye mtaji hata mdogo wa kufungua kiwanda cha maziwa utaanza vipi kuwa na free market economy kufanya na nchi za nje ambazo zina viwango (Standards) na quality..

Au unazungumzia free marklet economy within ourselves maana haiwezekani kabisa nchi ilokuwa maskini kama yetu unaingia free market economy ili uuze nini maana hata mashamba ya kahawa, Chai na Katani yalikuwa branches ya mashirika yaliyowekeza Kenya, na wenye mashamba makubwa ni wazungu walowezi. Kama Nyerere angekubali free market economy wakati ule basi Tanzania leo ingekuwa nchi ya wageni tu na kweli tungekuwa mbali lakini tungerudi ktk kutawaliwa na tulichobadilisha ni rangi ya ngozi hata kwa kufikiria tu. Sii ajabu kabisa asingeweza hata kumaliza hiyo miaka 23 ya utawala wake...Leo kweli tumerudi kule lakini imetokana na uzembe wetu wenyewe we had a choice ya kuijenga Tanzania Huru na yenye kujitegemea ktk uzalishaji.

Hapa tulipofikia tu watu kama Mkapa na JK wanasema hatuna mtaji sisi bado maskini hatuwezi kuwekeza tunahitaji wawekezaji toka nje na watu wanapiga makelele, sasa fikiria wakati wa Nyerere ambao middleclass wa leo ndio walikuwa matajiri wakubwa wa Tanzania ile. Mtu akimpakia Nyerere kwa baiskeli au Pikipiki ameweka record hadi leo kwamba alimsaidia Nyerere wee unafanya mchezo mkuu wangu..Huyu alopakiwa kwenye baiskeli ni graduate mwenye master degree..acha maskhala!

Acheni mzaha, Ubepari tuliingia wakati mzuri kabisa mwaka 1986 isipokuwa hatukuwa na plan that was a mistake na pili Nyerere aliwakabidhi madaraka wahuni kiasi kwamba mimi nafikiri he did that so that we fail ktk Ubepari kuweza kuonyesha dunia he was right all along maana nashindwa kabisa kuunganisha picha ya Mwinyi na Mkapa wakati alikuwa na vichwa pembeni waliobobea ktk uchumi. Hapa ndipo nashindwa kuelewa urithi huu aliutoa kwa misingi gani lakini kuhusu Ujamaa bob wala sina noma naye kabisa kwani alifanya kilichotakiwa kufanya. kama nilivyosema huwezi kwenda okoa watu Kigogo au jangwani na Meli mkuu wangu unapelekea mtumbwi na ikibidi uvue shati unavua na kuonmgoza wewe iwe kwa nguvu au wasipende maadam lengo ni kuokoa watu.. Tanzania tulikuwa ktk janga hilo na wokozi wake ulihitaji chombo na utawala unaolenga kuokoa watu na sio kufanya maonyesho ama mashindano..

samahani kama kuna makosa ya kiuandishi maana huandika wakati huo huo nafikiri....

Mr.Right said:

Here we go na Economic 101,

Najua utawaingiza wote ambao unaona wana philosophy za government intervene. Akiwemo huyo John Keynes. Unajaribu kuleta ubishi wa kizamani. Baadaye utasema Karl Marx.

Nimeshapita huko siku nyingi.

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Watumie vizuri basi vizuri kwa kuzingatia mapungufu ya models zao katika jamii kama zetu; sio kufananisha tu nchi na jamii zao as if one size fits all; haujifunzi tu kwamba hata IMF na WorldBank wameshindwa kwa hilo na hivyo kupelekea uwezekano wa kuja na new models practical for Africa? Stay in touch with the current state of knowledge;

Mchambuzi said:

Hivi Mr Right, do you know how poor of a system it is marekani - education wise compared to other countries zilizoendelea? Jana ulikuwa unajadili na mtu na kuisema vibaya sana nchi kama finland; ebu angalia nchi za Scandinavia versus marekani in terms of ubora wa elimu, utajifunza mengi; usijidanganye kwamba US ndio the right model, hata wao wanajua hilo halina ukweli wowote;

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Sipo ktk kucompare between countries. Nimetumia hiyo idea ya kuonyesha ni jinsi gani market economy inaweza kufanya hadi elimu ikawa very competitive. Also, huwezi kuidowngrade US education wakati kuna best leaders, businessman, wametoka ktk hiyo system ya education. Nimesema ktk USA kuna Ivy school ambazo zinaseperate kati ya average student na excellence. Majority ya students ktk hizo Ivy school siyo average student. Is that a good thing? Yeah.

Ndiyo maana ni dream ya wanafunzi wengi duniani kuingia ktk hizo shule za Ivy.

Mr.Right said:

Ndiyo maana Nyerere alichaguliwa ili awaongoze hao watu. Lakini alishindwa. Tatizo letu sisi WTZ ni kwamba hatuna viongozi wazuri wa kuongoza hao Watu. Kama Nyerere angekuwa kiongozi mzuri; basi angeongoza WTZ vizuri na tungekuwa mbali sana. Lakini Mzee Nyerere alishindwa. Matokeo yake, ule mzimu wa viongozi wabovu bado unaendelea kutukumba kila siku.

Nyerere alikuwa kiongozi Mzungumzaji mzuri; lakini utendaji wake ulikuwa ZERO.

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Sasa Mr right

Ebu kwa mujibu wa uchambuzi wako l ist ya marais tulioongozwa nao ( Nyerere, mwinyi, Mkapa, Kikwete) wapange kulingana na ubovu wao. Yaani yule mbovu kabisa awe wa kwanza na yule mwenye nafuu awe wa mwisho

Fahari said:

Sasa Mr right

Ebu kwa mujibu wa uchambuzi wako l ist ya marais tulioongozwa nao ( Nyerere, mwinyi, Mkapa, Kikwete) wapange kulingana na ubovu wao. Yaani yule mbovu kabisa awe wa kwanza na yule mwenye nafuu awe wa mwisho

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Sitashangaa kama atajibu kwamba nyereer aliweka misingi mibovu ya uongozi........

Mag3 said:

JokaKuu, nikimnukuu mwanasiasa moja wa Marekani ni kuwa kuliko kujadiliana na watu wengine, ni heri ujadiliane na meza ya kulia chakula, hivyo ndivyo wasomi wetu wengi walivyo.

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Unataka kutuharibia thread yetu mkuu, unajua siku zote uko kwenye ignore list yangu...ukitaka kumuelewesha mtu na kumvuta mtu aje kwako huna haja ya kutumia maneno ya matusi na hasa kwa kikongwe mwenye mvi kama wewe! mchambuzi ameanza vizuri kabisa na hajatoa matusi..kwa hiyo kunitukana kupitia joka kuu ni uwoga...ungejibu direct thread yangu

acha matusi mkuu! hata kama unampenda mno nyerere kiasi cha kuwa uko tayari kwa lolote lile!

@ Mr Right nakuuliz maswlai randomly kwa kutumia mfano mdgo wa kiwanda cha baiskeli za swala

JE

• viongoiz wa Tanzanai kuruhsu au kushidwa kulinda kiwanda kama cha basikeli za swala kife ni sahihi.?
• Je kiwanda hicho cha swala kilikufa kutokana na inefficiency au nini hasa ?
• Kiwanda hicho kilikufa kutokana na uongozi mbovu kiwandani
• kiwanda hicho a vingine viliruhusiwa kufa kupisha bidhaa bora. Soko huria....
• Kiwanda hicho kilikufa sababu hakikuweza kushindana?
• Serikali inatakiwa kuwa na sera ya kulinda na bidhaa za ndani?
• Nini kilitaktakiwa kufanyika kuilidna kiwada hicho.
• Ugekuwa wewe (Kiongozi bora) uko kwenye postion ya maamuzi ungefanya nini ili Nchi kama tanzaia japo izalishe baiskeli zake.

Kingine au Part II
I mean assume tumekubalina Nyerere alikuwa mbovu . mbovu hasa. na sijui maoni yako kuhusu wengine walifuat . Assume sasa wewe ndio Kiongozi .
Utafanya nini cha Tofauti na nyerere au utafanya nini cha sawa sawa na mwinyi, mkapa na kikwete au Utafanya nini cha tofauti kabisa.

Mr.Right said:

Sipo ktk kucompare between countries. Nimetumia hiyo idea ya kuonyesha ni jinsi gani market economy inaweza kufanya hadi elimu ikawa very competitive. Also, huwezi kuidowngrade US education wakati kuna best leaders, businessman, wametoka ktk hiyo system ya education. Nimesema ktk USA kuna Ivy school ambazo zinaseperate kati ya average student na excellence. Majority ya students ktk hizo Ivy school siyo average student. Is that a good thing? Yeah.

Ndiyo maana ni dream ya wanafunzi wengi duniani kuingia ktk hizo shule za Ivy.

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Ingekuwa busara sana kama ungekuwa unatumia muda wako mwingi humu na hizo analytical framework kujadili hali ya sasa na viongozi wetu kichumi na maendeleo ya jamii; hakika tungekuwa na mjadala mzuri sana wa kujenga nchi yetu, sio kutoa lawama, kitu ambacho hata your favourite country(US) hausikii hata siku moja Bush anatumika kama kigezo cha Obama kupata matatizo sasa for re-election 2012, ingawa ukweli ni kwamba bado madhara ya Bush yapo mengi; but hata siku moja hautasikia timu ya Obama ikimtaja Bush, itakufa na tai zao shingoni kwani kufanya kosa hilo tu, ni ku admit failure as a leader; inaonekana hata wewe u lack that quality in leadership; wapiga kura wa marekani mwakani wont vote for Obama because of Bush But will vote for Obama because of Obama;
But with you, hata ukijaliwa kuishi miaka 50 from now, kwa hulka yako, uchaguzi wa 2070 Tanzania hakika utampigia kura kiongozi mwingine sababu ya Nyerere, na kufumbia macho suala la kama huyo kiongozi unayempigia anatosha au lah;

JokaKuu said:

Waberoya,

..kwanini baba wa taifa awe ni Shamte na siyo Sultan Jamshid Bin Abdullah?

..Zanzibar was a Constitutional Monarch kama anavyoeleza bwana Shamte.

..hata walipopindua walisema wamempindua Sultani siyo huyo kibaraka Shamte.

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Mpendwa Joka kuu...nilijua kuna mtu atajibu kama ulivyojibu

Je Nyerere aliposhiriki uchaguzi wa 1958-1959/60 alikuwa/tulikuwa chini ya ya nani?

Nyerere alipokuwa waziri mkuu wa kwanza tulikuwa chini ya nani?

unasema kuwa ni kosa wazanzibar kuwa chini ya sultani ila ni haki watanganyika kuwa chini ya malkia? na influence ya malkia/uingereza kwetu sisi iliondoka lini?

au tungefanya mapinduzi ya kuwa chini ya waingereza...angetokea okello mwingine wa kufanya kilichofanyika zanzibar?

Mr.Right said:

Sipo ktk kucompare between countries. Nimetumia hiyo idea ya kuonyesha ni jinsi gani market economy inaweza kufanya hadi elimu ikawa very competitive. Also, huwezi kuidowngrade US education wakati kuna best leaders, businessman, wametoka ktk hiyo system ya education. Nimesema ktk USA kuna Ivy school ambazo zinaseperate kati ya average student na excellence. Majority ya students ktk hizo Ivy school siyo average student. Is that a good thing? Yeah.

Ndiyo maana ni dream ya wanafunzi wengi duniani kuingia ktk hizo shule za Ivy.

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Ingawa mjadala wa hii thread siyo suala la elimu ya marekani, lakini ni muhimu utambue kwamba what matters to a scholar ni kichwa chake, otherwise hizo IV league, unaweza mchukua mtu wa pale na kumpeleka UK, au Australia akapwaya sana kielimu; ndio, elimu ya US ni nzuri, hata mimi nimesoma degree yangu ya kwanza na kuishi huko miaka saba, lakini usiichukulie kama ndio bench mark ya ubora wa elimu; hao leaders kutoka kwenye hizo business schools, do you know why they become leaders? soma historia ya hizo shule na malengo yake ilikuwa nini, utakuja elewa; otherwise kuelimika ni kichwa cha mtu, sio shule aliyosoma;

Mr.Right said:

Unashindwa kutofautisha oportunity tuliyokuwa nayo sisi TZ ni tofauti sana na Kenya ua Uganda. Like I said before, TZ ipo ktk nafasi nzuri kuliko hizo nchi. TZ tuna location nzuri kuliko Uganda. TZ tuna nafasi nzuri ya kufanya biashara kuliko Kenya. Kwa hiyo opportunity yetu ni kubwa sana, huwezi hata kulinganisha na hizo nchi. Kwa hiyo kucompare hizo nchi na TZ, ni sawa na kucompare mbuzi na ngo'mbe.

Sasa kama tungekuwa na market economy, sisi tungekuwa mbali sana kwa sababu hizo sababu nilizokupa na zenginezo ambazo zitachukua page kuziandika. Uganda hawakuwa nafasi tuliyokuwa nayo sisi. Hawana bandari, ardhi yao ndogo. Kenya wamezungukwa na chi ambazo hazina stable government. Please, dont compare Mbuzi na Ngo'mbe.

Pili- Kufa kwa Ujamaa siyo kwamba ndiyo kila kitu kitabadilika. Unashindwa kuelewa hiyo regime ya Nyerere mpaka leo imebakia madarakani. Pamoja na mabadiliko machache yaliyofanywa ktk kipindi cha Mwinyi, bado msingi kamili wa market economy umepotezwa. Viongozi wengi waliopo madarakani ni matunda ya Mzee Nyerere. Bado society yetu inamawazo ya utegemezi (Ujamaa). Market economy inataka foundation, na hiyo itachukua muda.

Hiyo senctensi ya mwisho naona umechanganya mambo. Unasema 1977 Kenya ilikuwa ina nguvu ikaua EAC. Nchi (TZ) ilikuwa haina kitu chochote. Kwa hiyo unakubali kwamba Nyerere alichemsha alifeli.

Halafu Nyerere akaitoa TZ?? Unashindwa kukubali kwamba kuanzia 1977 na kuendelea Nyerere alianza kupanga exist yake ya kuachia madaraka. Let's be honest.

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Nadhani alichokuwa anataka kukuambia Mkandara ni hicho hapo chini kutoka kwenye kipande cha speech ya mwal Nyerere alipokuwa anazungumzia matatizo ya East Africa Co-operation 1964. Jamani mzee wetu alikutana na visiki vingi sana kwa hiyo jaribuni kufanya research kidogo kabla ya kutoa hukumu.
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Let me illustrate the point by explaining Tanzania’s problems(because they are problems which I understand better) in certain matter relating to Common Market. The pattern of European settlement in East Africa , together with other fortuitous circumstances , meant that Nairobi developed as an industrial and commercial centre for the whole area. Firms were established there and expanded their operations to sell goods throughout East Africa. Tanzania obtained virtually no industries of her own, but built up a sizeable export capacity in certain primary commodities . At the same time some of her crops – like wheat - were prohibited from entering Kenya. The prohibition was laid down by the same colonial authority which established and maintained the common market in industrial goods, but I am told it still continues.
The result has been that in 1961 Kenya exported goods worth £8.9 million to Tanganyika , and imported goods only to the value of £1.8 million. In 1964 Tanzania’s imports from Kenya had risen to £13.3 million , and her exports to Kenya were worth £4.1 million.
This meant that the deficit on Tanzania’s trade with Kenya had increased from £7.1 million to £9.2 million.
In other words , the colonial economic pattern meant that Tanganyika was a free market for Kenya , and the surplus she earned on overseas trade with other countries was not promoting her own development . Further , any money which the independent Government now borrows from infrastructural development leaks away. Instead of the secondary effects of investment being felt in the country which has the obligation to repay any loan , the increase in the effective market is felt mainly by Tanzania’s partners in the Common Market. Because of the common tariff arrangements , and the free inter – East African trade , Tanzania cannot buy in the cheapest market abroad, and equally she cannot protect her own infant industries against competition from long established and large scale firms in Kenya , and - to a lesser extent – in Uganda.
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Mr Right:

Una mawazo mazuri kuhusu nchi yako, kwamba tungefanya nini baada ya uhuru etc, kwani hiyo ndio maana ya mjadala wa kutumia hoja, lakini mara nyingine to me you sound kama vile you are Neo Liberalism robot;

Mimi ningekushauri uelewe kwanza historia ya nchi yetu kiuchumi 1885 - 1961; then itazame between 1961 - 1966; pamoja na yote hayo pia uangalie the socio - economic context; weka ujamaa on the side kwanza, jaribu kuelewa how mtanganyika alipata his or her first contact with capitalism; then fuatilia chimbuko la free market ni nini na usichanganye free market and capitalism; and mind you, The Market isn't the invention of capitalism, the market existed for centuries, both in pre colonial Tanganyika/Africa and pre - industrial Europe and US; what Adam smith and others ambao ndio your idols of the free market, what all these people did was just to explain the logic of the market, and again, in their own context (europe), not Tanganyika; tupo pamoja before I continue?

sweke34 said:

Nadhani alichokuwa anataka kukuambia Mkandara ni hicho hapo chini kutoka kwenye kipande cha speech ya mwal Nyerere alipokuwa anazungumzia matatizo ya East Africa Co-operation 1964. Jamani mzee wetu alikutana na visiki vingi sana kwa hiyo jaribuni kufanya research kidogo kabla ya kutoa hukumu.
*********
Let me illustrate the point by explaining Tanzania's problems(because they are problems which I understand better) in certain matter relating to Common Market. The pattern of European settlement in East Africa , together with other fortuitous circumstances , meant that Nairobi developed as an industrial and commercial centre for the whole area. Firms were established there and expanded their operations to sell goods throughout East Africa. Tanzania obtained virtually no industries of her own, but built up a sizeable export capacity in certain primary commodities . At the same time some of her crops – like wheat - were prohibited from entering Kenya. The prohibition was laid down by the same colonial authority which established and maintained the common market in industrial goods, but I am told it still continues.
The result has been that in 1961 Kenya exported goods worth £8.9 million to Tanganyika , and imported goods only to the value of £1.8 million. In 1964 Tanzania's imports from Kenya had risen to £13.3 million , and her exports to Kenya were worth £4.1 million.
This meant that the deficit on Tanzania's trade with Kenya had increased from £7.1 million to £9.2 million.
In other words , the colonial economic pattern meant that Tanganyika was a free market for Kenya , and the surplus she earned on overseas trade with other countries was not promoting her own development . Further , any money which the independent Government now borrows from infrastructural development leaks away. Instead of the secondary effects of investment being felt in the country which has the obligation to repay any loan , the increase in the effective market is felt mainly by Tanzania's partners in the Common Market. Because of the common tariff arrangements , and the free inter – East African trade , Tanzania cannot buy in the cheapest market abroad, and equally she cannot protect her own infant industries against competition from long established and large scale firms in Kenya , and - to a lesser extent – in Uganda.
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This is an excellent piece; i hope Mr. Right atakitumia vizuri kuelewa the benefits and limitations of free market in our context, a system which he favours so much bila chujio;