Beating the Drum on One Side: Confusing the People on Both Sides

Chintu · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
That same argument you have used is under the heading Sound and Unsound Logic, did you notice? Now, did you notice the last sentence before that heading? "Selective examples convert the truths in Said's paper into half-truths"

It simply means, the sentence which was used as a mode of argument is not Hirji's but he is using "Selective examples" to "convert the truths in Said's paper into half-truths"

What is so hard in you reading and understanding that? they are just "examples" (mifano) and not reality. That is from Hirji's mouth. And Al Alama Mohamed Said's truth is being hypothetically "converted into half-truths" by your beloved "Professor".

Hivi hizo shule huwa mnaenda kusomea ujinga?

...Binafsi sikusoma Historia, hivyo kwangu fursa kama hizi za mijadala nazifurahia sana ili nami nitoke kwenye ujinga. Lakini naomba niseme wazi kuwa article ya Prof Hirji hadi sasa imekosa mtu makini wa kuichallenge ili sie tuliowajinga wa historia tufaidike.
Naamini kabisa kuwa Prof ametumia selective examples, na hivyo nimekuwa nikisubiri kwa hamu hoja zitakazomchallenge kwa kutumia mifano ambayo hakuiselect (au haipo?)
Dada examples can be real examples or hypothetical - e.g. naweza kusema JF kuna mabingwa wengi sana wa Historia kwa mfano Mzee Mohammed Said. -This is a selective example and its a real example. Kadharika katika

Differences between Muslims and Christians in educational attainment and higher level jobs existed in 1961, and still persist. So do differences between males and females, between regions and between races.

yaweza kuwa ni selective example. Lakini ni reality, au hutaki?

Nguruvi3 · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Tuwekee basi chanzo tukajisomee. Au ndiyo katika makabrasha yako yaliyoliwa na panya?

Chanzo anajua Mohamed maana nimeweka nukuu zake kama zilivyo.

Msipindishe mjadala kumuokoa, Mohamed Said njoo hapa ukabiliane na takwimu zako mwenyewe

Kipande kinachofuata ni takwimu kutoka gazeti la Daily news na Kiongozi kama alivyoziwakilisha Mohamed

Nguruvi3 · Feb 25, 2015

Table 2

Religious Distribution University of Dar es Salaam 1971/72-1973/74
Year Muslim % Non-Muslim % Total
1969/70 17 83 100
*1970/71 - - -
1971/72 13 87 100
1972/73 14 86 100
1973/74 13 87 100
*1974/75 - - -
1975/76 15 85 100
*1976/77 - - -
*1977/78 - - -
1978/79 14 86 100
**1979/80 14 86 100
**1980/81 11 89 100
**1981/82 16 84 100

* Official Statistics not available

Nguruvi

@Mohamed Said , hapa ulikusudia hizo ni hypothetical data au ulikusudia nini?
Tueleweshe tafadhali

Halafu, non muslims kwanini wanakuwa eneo moja, je miongoni mwao hakuna data zinazoweza kuvuruga kabisa ushahidi wako?

Nina maana kama no muslims wakiwa 90% pagans, 5% Atheist na 5% Christians , huoni kama utakuwa umepoteza miguu ya hoja yako! Na kama si hivyo, hebu tueleze non muslims ni akina nani na wapo katika % gani

Mohamed haya ni maandishi yako, njoo hapa jamvini utoe elimu.

Takwimu umezitafuta mwenyewe, sample size umechagua mwenyewe, ukazifanyia uchambuzi wa kina na kuja na hitimisho.
Njoo hapa tujadiliane maana ulishamaliza kazi sasa ni ilm

GAUTAMA · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Duh! Tanzania kuna madhehebu hata sijawahi kuyasikia duniani, ndiyo kwanza leo niyajuwe.

Hebu tupe source tukayasome kwa kina au source ni wewe mwenyewe?

Ahsante kwa elimu unayotuzidishia.

Tumekuelewa, sasa twende kwenye hoja

Mag3 · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
That same argument you have used is under the heading Sound and Unsound Logic, did you notice? Now, did you notice the last sentence before that heading? "Selective examples convert the truths in Said's paper into half-truths"

It simply means, the sentence which was used as a mode of argument is not Hirji's but he is using "Selective examples" to "convert the truths in Said's paper into half-truths"

Not so fast FaizaFoxy, it is you who is disillusioned and have failed completely to comprehend Professor Karim Hirji's argument. He says it very bluntly, I quote;

Professor Karim Hirji said:
Those who speak on behalf of Muslim, Christian or other communities need to bear that in mind. They need to realise that a series of half-truths masked as scholarship has lower moral standing than an outright lie. It has a greater capacity to deceive. Even an educated person may be confounded by the details in Said's paper. The footnotes convey the impression of erudition. Yet, the foundation is hollow, the evidence one-sided, and the claims, wanting. People from all sides argue in this style, which, in the long run, just produces mystification. Members of any creed do themselves a disservice by according high regard to voices presenting such selective, semi-factual, biased perspectives.

This statement in red and its bluntness describes Mohamed Said and his work in more ways than easily perceived by many with little understanding. It is this group that will come up with simple explanation like you have done above for they are prey to manipulations based on religion under the subject, creed. It is also important to note that while Professor Karim takes note of extremists from both sides of the aisle, Mohamed Said's half truths are one sided and focus more on issues that divide us.

Ritz · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Tuwekee basi chanzo tukajisomee. Au ndiyo katika makabrasha yako yaliyoliwa na panya?

Kwi kwi kwi kwi...usicheze na panya buku wametafuna makabrasha yote.

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

Mag3 said:
Bill Cosby, asante sana kwa ufafanuzi huu, Ismailia si Waislaam, ni makafiri. Laiti mwalimu wenu Mohamed Said angejua hili....

Punjab Singh, I am forced to address you in English for it appears, because you dont know Kiswahili, you have no idea who or what you represent in this debate...just take note; the chickens are on their way home to roost and that's one reason why you may end up with an egg on your face for you can only reap what you sew. Please ponder this;

Please note: Reaping what one sew is very different from reaping what one sowed!

Mag3, I guess you have no idea how many languages I speak. Teh teh the

And where did I tell you or anyone here that I do not know Kiswahili? Jumping the wagon especially from the front is one of the gravest mistake you ever did. The "chickens"?

Omg well said Prof. M.Said JF has never been boring. Oh boy!!

Ritz · Feb 25, 2015

GAUTAMA said:
Sasa unaniwekea maandishi ya huyu mjane mimi ntayapeleka wapi?, Mzee MS huna hoja, ila kitu kimoja ambacho nina uhakika nacho ni kwamba una hadithi nyingi sana kichwani, lakini unapokuwa challenged kidogo tu huna uwezo wa ku-argue, kitu ambacho hata mimi niliyesoma ngumbalo naliona bila miwani ya 3D,

Ukipata muda mjibu Profesa, ukishindwa basi waachie kina Ritz waendelee kutukana.

NB: Page za mwanzoni kabisa za paper yako ulioipresent Nairobi, inaakisi hizo hadithi unazosimuliwa Gerezani wakati wa gahawa, Kama ni hivyo basi, ni vizuri ukaiweka kwenye dustbin, maana kina mama hawatakubali kufungia vitumbua.

Yaani kupinga kuwa Mau Mau hawakupigana na Wajerumani ndiyo matusi.

Teh teh teh teh

matumbo · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Waislam wenzangu nawaomba twende nao taratibu hawa ndugu zetu bila lugha za maudhi, tutafika tu.

Mbona mada ni nzuri sana na kila hoja tunayoipanguwa wanakuwa hawana majibu. Mmeona hoja moja ndogo jana ilivyowachachafya mpaka wamebadili post nzima, mpaka "Professor" kaingiwa na kiwewe, kila anavyoomba msamaha anaona bado, post zake zote tatu za mwanzo (sijuwi kama kuna nyingine) ameomba na kila anavyoomba anaona hajaeleweka.

Hizo ndiyo nguvu za ukweli.

Naomba twendeni kwa maudhui iliyokuwepo hawa wenzetu wanaleta kejeli na tashtiti ili kututoa kwenye hii mada wanajuwa hii ni maji ya shingo kwao.

Nawaomba tulieni, mwacheni mwenye kutukana na atukane sisi tubaki kwenye hoja tu.

Sasa kuna nyingine ambayo niliigusia gusia jana wakajifanya hawaioni, leo kuna mmoja anaitwa Chintu kachokoza, nimempa heshima yake kwa kumpa darsa dogo kwa aliyoleta kama "reality" ya Hirji, Subhanna-Allah, kumbe aliyodhani ndiyo reality ya Hirji hakujuwa kuwa anaumeza mwiba usiomezeka, sasa umemkaa kooni, anajuta kwa nini.

Tumsubiri avute pumzi labda atapata ahueni.

Nawaomba kaka zangu, wadogo zangu, wakubwa zangu, wanangu, tutulie na tusiwe kama wao.

Pole Chintu.

Okay, umefanya la maana kuweka uwanja safi ata tulioondoka tumerudi.

Sasa mwambie Mzee Mohammed Said ajibu hoja za Prof Hirji,au la uzijibu moja baada ya moja wewe binafsi umpe msaada.

Kama ujaziona niambie nikuonyeshe.

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

Mag3 said:
Not so fast FaizaFoxy, it is you who is disillusioned and have failed completely to comprehend Professor Karim Hirji's argument. He says it very bluntly, I quote;

This statement in red and its bluntness describes Mohamed Said and his work in more ways than easily perceived by many with little understanding. It is this group that will come up with simple explanation like you have done above for they are prey to manipulations based on religion under the subject, creed. It is also important to note that while Professor Karim takes note of extremists from both sides of the aisle, Mohamed Said's half truths are one sided and focus more on issues that divide us.

So this going in circle while parroting is it from you or Karim Bhai or Nguruvi3's Makabrasha that were eaten by Panya bukus? Teh teh teh!

Ritz · Feb 25, 2015

Nguruvi3 said:
Mohamed Said jamvi linasubiri ilm, njoo unyambulishe data.
Hakuna kujificha, niliwaambia vijana wako mzinga hautupiwi mawe kama mwembe ng'ongo.

Mohamed, jamvini linakusubiri

Kwi kwi kwi kwi kwi kwi.

Chintu · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Waislam wenzangu nawaomba twende nao taratibu hawa ndugu zetu bila lugha za maudhi, tutafika tu.

Mbona mada ni nzuri sana na kila hoja tunayoipanguwa wanakuwa hawana majibu. Mmeona hoja moja ndogo jana ilivyowachachafya mpaka wamebadili post nzima, mpaka "Professor" kaingiwa na kiwewe, kila anavyoomba msamaha anaona bado, post zake zote tatu za mwanzo (sijuwi kama kuna nyingine) ameomba na kila anavyoomba anaona hajaeleweka.

Hizo ndiyo nguvu za ukweli.

Naomba twendeni kwa maudhui iliyokuwepo hawa wenzetu wanaleta kejeli na tashtiti ili kututoa kwenye hii mada wanajuwa hii ni maji ya shingo kwao.

Nawaomba tulieni, mwacheni mwenye kutukana na atukane sisi tubaki kwenye hoja tu.

Sasa kuna nyingine ambayo niliigusia gusia jana wakajifanya hawaioni, leo kuna mmoja anaitwa Chintu kachokoza, nimempa heshima yake kwa kumpa darsa dogo kwa aliyoleta kama "reality" ya Hirji, Subhanna-Allah, kumbe aliyodhani ndiyo reality ya Hirji hakujuwa kuwa anaumeza mwiba usiomezeka, sasa umemkaa kooni, anajuta kwa nini.

Tumsubiri avute pumzi labda atapata ahueni.

Nawaomba kaka zangu, wadogo zangu, wakubwa zangu, wanangu, tutulie na tusiwe kama wao.

Pole Chintu.

Hahahaaaa! asante dada FF. Mimi mwanafunzi tu dada katika somo hili la historia, kazi yangu kubwa humu ndani ni kuangalia nani anaetoa hoja zinazoeleweka na nani anaokotezaokoteza tu hoja.
Kadri muda unavyozidi kwenda ndivyo ninavyozidi kupata picha ya nani mkweli. Ila ninasikitika na sijui kwa nini katika hii hoja Mzee Mohammed Said kawa mpole sana na amebaki kutoa like tu kwenye majibu yako. I hope atakuwa hajaumeza mwiba usiomezeka.

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

Ritz said:
Kwi kwi kwi kwi kwi kwi.

Ritz, Laughter is the best medicine and it is not scares in JF.😀😀:thumbup::thumbup:

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

FaizaFoxy said:
Tuwekee basi chanzo tukajisomee. Au ndiyo katika makabrasha yako yaliyoliwa na panya?

My Hon. Lady Faiza,

These guys will never bring something of their own effort, Karim Bhai has done them a great favour by writting that hypothetical analysis and now they are stuck in a void they cannot get out of that urimbo whenever they wrigle and sithle they get more stuck😀😀

Ritz · Feb 25, 2015

Punjab Singh said:
Ritz, Laughter is the best medicine and it is not scares in JF.😀😀:thumbup::thumbup:

Mr Punjab Singh.

I still can't understand why people's like Prof Hirji eat gutkas manikchand.

FaizaFoxy · Feb 25, 2015

Chintu said:
...Binafsi sikusoma Historia, hivyo kwangu fursa kama hizi za mijadala nazifurahia sana ili nami nitoke kwenye ujinga. Lakini naomba niseme wazi kuwa article ya Prof Hirji hadi sasa imekosa mtu makini wa kuichallenge ili sie tuliowajinga wa historia tufaidike.
Naamini kabisa kuwa Prof ametumia selective examples, na hivyo nimekuwa nikisubiri kwa hamu hoja zitakazomchallenge kwa kutumia mifano ambayo hakuiselect (au haipo?)
Dada examples can be real examples or hypothetical - e.g. naweza kusema JF kuna mabingwa wengi sana wa Historia kwa mfano Mzee Mohammed Said. -This is a selective example and its a real example. Kadharika katika

yaweza kuwa ni selective example. Lakini ni reality, au hutaki?

Kwanza kumbuka argument ilkuwa ni ya nini? unakumbuka?

Kama unakumbuka sasa nisome tena tartiiib:

By FaizaFoxy

That same argument you have used is under the heading Sound and Unsound Logic, did you notice? Now, did you notice the last sentence before that heading? "Selective examples convert the truths in Said's paper into half-truths"

It simply means, the sentence which was used as a mode of argument is not Hirji's but he is using "Selective examples" to "convert the truths in Said's paper into half-truths"

What is so hard in you reading and understanding that? they are just "examples" (mifano) and not reality. That is from Hirji's mouth. And Al Alama Mohamed Said's truth is being hypothetically "converted into half-truths" by your beloved "Professor".

Hivi hizo shule huwa mnaenda kusomea ujinga?

Mpaka "professor" anakiri wazi wazi, kinaga ubaga, kuwa atatumia ukweli wa Mohamed Said kuubadilisha (convert) kuwa nusu ukweli wewe bado unaona huyo mtu kaleta "reality"?

Kwa kweli nakusikitikia sana.

Mag3 · Feb 25, 2015

Punjab Singh said:
Mag3, I guess you have no idea how many languages I speak. Teh teh the

Sorry, I thought you and Punjab Singh were one and the same...

Punjab Singh said:
And where did I tell you or anyone here that I do not know Kiswahili? Jumping the wagon especially from the front is one of the gravest mistake you ever did.

You do? Sorry again...I thought you and Punjab Singh were one and the same...

Punjab Singh said:
The "chickens"?

Yes, the chickens...any problem?

Punjab Singh said:
Omg well said Prof. M.Said JF has never been boring. Oh boy!!

Oh, you mean the disillusioned story teller? Yeah, JF has never been boring!

Punjab Singh said:
So this going in circle while parroting is it from you or Karim Bhai or Nguruvi3's Makabrasha that were eaten by Panya bukus? Teh teh teh!

Are you for real Punjab Singh

Punjab Singh said:
Ritz, Laughter is the best medicine and it is not scares in JF.😀😀:thumbup::thumbup:

Heri ungeandika kwa Kiswahili Punjab Singh..ha ha haa...

Punjab Singh said:
My Hon. Lady Faiza, These guys will never bring something of their own effort, Karim Bhai has done them a great favour by writting that hypothetical analysis and now they are stuck in a void they cannot get out of that urimbo whenever they wrigle and sithle they get more stuck😀😀

Yeah, your mentor Mohamed Said has brought something of his own and Punjab Singh has swallowed it hook, line and sinker! Good night!

Punjab Singh · Feb 25, 2015

Ritz said:
Mr Punjab Singh.

I still can't understand why people's like Prof Hirji eat gutkas manikchand.

Because it is a mouth freshner Ritz so definetly they need to freshen their lies too.
On the other hand there are speciality premium blends that have a drugs like effects and even tranquilizers. May be Karim Bhai missed that while writing that so called critique. Teh teh teh😛😀

Nguruvi3 · Feb 25, 2015

Table 2

Religious Distribution University of Dar es Salaam 1971/72-1973/74
Year Muslim % Non-Muslim % Total
1969/70 17 83 100
*1970/71 - - -
1971/72 13 87 100
1972/73 14 86 100
1973/74 13 87 100
*1974/75 - - -
1975/76 15 85 100
*1976/77 - - -
*1977/78 - - -
1978/79 14 86 100
**1979/80 14 86 100
**1980/81 11 89 100
**1981/82 16 84 100

* Official Statistics not available

Mohamed Said , hapa ulikusudia hizo ni hypothetical data au ulikusudia nini? Nieleweshe tafadhali

Halafu, non muslims kwanini wanakuwa eneo moja, je miongoni mwao hakuna data zinazoweza kuvuruga kabisa ushahidi wako? Nina maana kama no muslims wakiwa 90% pagans, 5% Atheist na 5% Christians , huoni kama utakuwa umepoteza miguu ya hoja yako! Na kama si hivyo, hebu tueleze non muslims ni akina nani na wapo katika % gani

Mohamed Said , hatuna kahawa hapa na watu wanakusubiri

Mohamed Said · Feb 25, 2015

Chintu said:
Hahahaaaa! asante dada FF. Mimi mwanafunzi tu dada katika somo hili la historia, kazi yangu kubwa humu ndani ni kuangalia nani anaetoa hoja zinazoeleweka na nani anaokotezaokoteza tu hoja.
Kadri muda unavyozidi kwenda ndivyo ninavyozidi kupata picha ya nani mkweli. Ila ninasikitika na sijui kwa nini katika hii hoja Mzee Mohammed Said kawa mpole sana na amebaki kutoa like tu kwenye majibu yako. I hope atakuwa hajaumeza mwiba usiomezeka.

Chintu,
Mahali anapoingia Maalim Faiza...
Mimi nakuwa pembeni...

Huu ni ukumbi wa Faiza na Prof. Hirji.
Adab za mnakasha zinanilazimu niwe msikilizaji.

Sijameza mwiba wowote.
Ukipata nafasi ingia Jukwaa la Historia ndiko nilikokuwa.

Nimeweka vitu vingine.
Ingia hapa upate starehe bila malipo kwa hisani ya Mohamed Said:

http://www.mohammedsaid.com/2015/02/chama-cha-mapinduzi-ccm-yabomoa-nyumba.html

Upole ni tabia ya kuigwa.
Kasema Mtukufu wa Darja SAW halitiwi jambo upole ila hupendeza.

Kama umeniona nimekuwa mpole hiyo ni sifa kubwa kwangu.
Allah ajaalie iwe hivyo.

Beating the Drum on One Side: Confusing the People on Both Sides

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

Platinum Member

JF-Expert Member

Similar Discussions