After so much drama finally the EAC defence protocol signed!

[FJM]

Nadhani hii debate inazidi kupinda, kama Tanzania walifanya makosa kumvamia Idd Amin wa Uganda basi Kenya nayo inafanya makosa kwenda Somalia kupigana na Al-Shaabab!!!

What I dont understand and what Kenya doesnt want explain to us, ni kwanini Kenya wanataka kila wanachosema/demand basi Tanzania iseme YES? As a sovereign nation Kenya has its own priorities and so is Tanzania. Sasa kwa nini Kenya wanaoenekna ku-discount hilo? Hivi wanaamini Tanzania haijui nini cha kufanya au Tanzania haina priorities?

Na haiwezekani kuwa na EAC inatakayo-accommodate interests za individual member state? Kuwa na uchumi mkubwa does not mean that Kenya has the right to dictate how other country should run its affairs. Yes, uchumi wa Tanzania bado ni mdogo kulinganisha na Kenya, lakini siyo jukumu la Kenya kuinua uchumi wa Tanzania.

Tukichukulia mfano EU, Germany ndio number 1 kwa uchumi mkubwa, France nayo wanawazidi UK, lakini ndani ya EU, UK imeamua kutojiingiza kwenye mambo fulani fulani i.e single currency, visa kwa sababu wanazozijua wao kama nchi.

Tukurudi kwenye hii EAC Tanzania imeshasema ni yapi wanakubaliana nayo na yapi yarekebishwe ili yaendane na national interest zake. Tatizo ni nini?

Mimi nadhani Kenya wamejiaminisha mnooooo kuwa Tanzania hawajui mbele wala nyuma! hivyo wanapoleta ngonjera zao na zikakataliwa wanahamaki maana hawakutegemea Tanzania wanajua 'kusoma na kuandika'! Wamesahau kabisa kuwa tunajuana vilivyo, tuna experience ya muda (EA community ya 1970s).


Kuna thread moja nilisoma mdau mmoja akisema kuwa itachukua 103 years kuifikia Kenya! Sikujibu na sitoijibu kwa sasa ila tuombeane uzima hadi walau 2020! Ninachoweza kusema Kenya walikosea sana kutoharakisha mambo yao wakati wa mzee wa Valuer - Mkapa. Yule alikuwa anapata viroba vyake asubuhi ana-sign makaratasi. Bahati mbaya sana!

 

[JokaKuu]

Kabaridi,

..Tanzania liberated Uganda frm Idi Amin dictatorship. I have Ugandan friends who call[wananitania] me "mkombozi," which means "the liberator" bcuz that is the name that Ugandan ppl used to call Tanzanian soldiers who fought in Ugandan war.

..I dont know why u keep refering Tanzanias involvement in Uganda as an invasion. Is that just ur own view, or it is the view of the majority of Kenyans?? All Ugandans I have met so far r very thankful to JWTZ[jeshi la wananchi wa tanzania] for LIBERATING their country.

..kwa kweli ku-equate vita ya kumtoa Iddi Amin na uvamizi na unyama wa Rwanda na Uganda dhidi ya wananchi wa Congo, ni matusi[insults] kwetu wa-Tanzania na mashujaa wetu waliokomboa Uganda toka mikononi mwa Iddi Amini Dada.

..SADC military assistance is not automatic. The conflict in Congo-Kinshasa is a good example; Zimbabwe,Angola, and Namibia, sent their armies to fight alongside Congolese, and Tanzania removed her soldiers who were already inside Congo. Also, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe, are the only SADC members that helped Mozambican government fight of Renamo bandits.

..I think wa-Tanzania r asking some very practical questions before they sign on to EAC defence protocal. How is Tanzania supposed to conduct her military policy when it is a signatory of both SADC and EAC defence protocals??

NB:

..Angola has not asked SADC assistance to support her military involvement in Bamako, and Guinea Bissau.

..to me Angola is a very interesting country considering the way it is trying to assert herself militarily and economically.

..i read Angola invested about $ 500 million in bauxite mining in Guinea Bissau!!

 

[Kabaridi]

Nadhani hii debate inazidi kupinda, kama Tanzania walifanya makosa kumvamia Idd Amin wa Uganda basi Kenya nayo inafanya makosa kwenda Somalia kupigana na Al-Shaabab!!!

What I dont understand and what Kenya doesnt want explain to us, ni kwanini Kenya wanataka kila wanachosema/demand basi Tanzania iseme YES? As a sovereign nation Kenya has its own priorities and so is Tanzania. Sasa kwa nini Kenya wanaoenekna ku-discount hilo? Hivi wanaamini Tanzania haijui nini cha kufanya au Tanzania haina priorities?

Na haiwezekani kuwa na EAC inatakayo-accommodate interests za individual member state? Kuwa na uchumi mkubwa does not mean that Kenya has the right to dictate how other country should run its affairs. Yes, uchumi wa Tanzania bado ni mdogo kulinganisha na Kenya, lakini siyo jukumu la Kenya kuinua uchumi wa Tanzania.

Tukichukulia mfano EU, Germany ndio number 1 kwa uchumi mkubwa, France nayo wanawazidi UK, lakini ndani ya EU, UK imeamua kutojiingiza kwenye mambo fulani fulani i.e single currency, visa kwa sababu wanazozijua wao kama nchi.

Tukurudi kwenye hii EAC Tanzania imeshasema ni yapi wanakubaliana nayo na yapi yarekebishwe ili yaendane na national interest zake. Tatizo ni nini?

Mimi nadhani Kenya wamejiaminisha mnooooo kuwa Tanzania hawajui mbele wala nyuma! hivyo wanapoleta ngonjera zao na zikakataliwa wanahamaki maana hawakutegemea Tanzania wanajua 'kusoma na kuandika'! Wamesahau kabisa kuwa tunajuana vilivyo, tuna experience ya muda (EA community ya 1970s).


Kuna thread moja nilisoma mdau mmoja akisema kuwa itachukua 103 years kuifikia Kenya! Sikujibu na sitoijibu kwa sasa ila tuombeane uzima hadi walau 2020! Ninachoweza kusema Kenya walikosea sana kutoharakisha mambo yao wakati wa mzee wa Valuer - Mkapa. Yule alikuwa anapata viroba vyake asubuhi ana-sign makaratasi. Bahati mbaya sana!

Hapo kwenye red hivi ulidhani kenya ilikwenda somali kwenye vita sababu ya alshabaab?!! What is this insect called Alshabaab?! Miradi ya hapo pwani lazima yakamilike bila bugudha kutoka makundi yasioeleweka. Twajua mataifa yana priorities, na hii pact ina wadau wangapi kutoka Afrika Mashariki?! Why FJM you are making this seem a kenyan-Tanzanian affair. Heads of state wanapokutana huko kwa ujumla wanafaa kuweka resolution katika hizi mikutano.

Mimi nina swali kwenu ninyi kuhusu EAC. Kwa vile mumeegemea mno kwenye SADC, na vile vile wao wana defense pacts ambo ina maana sawa na hii ya EAC, nini sababu kubwa ya kukawia kufikia maafikiano kuhusu huo mkataba? Tayari nimeshaleta picha vile mataifa ya EAC yaliomo katika muungano wanaheshimu uhuru wa mataifa husika na katiba zao na viongozi wa Nchi hizi. Kama picha ingekuwa tofauti tungeshuhudia kinyume.

Pia kuna mwingine akasema eti tatizo kubwa ya kutoweka saini, ni vita ndani ya S,SUdan Somalia. Nchi hizi mbili zimekuwa zikipigana kwa miongo mingi sasa. Tunaweza laumu Umoja wa mataifa (UN) kuwa wamekuwa wakiombea vita na kuwa watazamaji. Wakati UN ilipokuwa na habari ya hivi vita, walikuwa na jukumu la kuumaliza.

Lakini upelelezi wetu umetuonyesha huwa wanaruhusu vita viwe ili, waweze kutunuku makumpuni ya misaada kutoka ngambo kandarasi za kuleta madawa, chakula, hema, na mambo mengine kama hayo. Hawa UN waliweka international law kuwa mataifa yanayopakana na nchi zinazopigana yasiingilie kati. Waweza kuona hii picha najaribu kuelezea. La msingi ni kuwa mataifa ya EA ambao tuko huru na hatujashuhudia vita vikuu, iwe tusitumie huru wetu kwa uchoyo bila kuleta mabadiliko katika EA.

Haya mambo tunayazungumzia hayaandamani moja kwa moja na maswala ya uchumi. Yanaenda sawa na Amani na Ustawi. Lakini aliyewadanganya itachukua karne/103 years TZ ifikie KE kiuchumi hataki muwe na potential ya kuwa na uchumi unaoweza kujikimu/sustainable economy. Utakuta hawa wanaosema hivi ni wenye wadhifa katika World bank ama IMF (mordern-day-imperialism).

 

[Kabaridi]

Kabaridi,

..Tanzania liberated Uganda frm Idi Amin dictatorship. I have Ugandan friends who call[wananitania] me "mkombozi," which means "the liberator" bcuz that is the name that Ugandan ppl used to call Tanzanian soldiers who fought in Ugandan war.

..I dont know why u keep refering Tanzanias involvement in Uganda as an invasion. Is that just ur own view, or it is the view of the majority of Kenyans?? All Ugandans I have met so far r very thankful to JWTZ[jeshi la wananchi wa tanzania] for LIBERATING their country.

..kwa kweli ku-equate vita ya kumtoa Iddi Amin na uvamizi na unyama wa Rwanda na Uganda dhidi ya wananchi wa Congo, ni matusi[insults] kwetu wa-Tanzania na mashujaa wetu waliokomboa Uganda toka mikononi mwa Iddi Amini Dada.

..SADC military assistance is not automatic. The conflict in Congo-Kinshasa is a good example; Zimbabwe,Angola, and Namibia, sent their armies to fight alongside Congolese, and Tanzania removed her soldiers who were already inside Congo. Also, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe, are the only SADC members that helped Mozambican government fight of Renamo bandits.

..I think wa-Tanzania r asking some very practical questions before they sign on to EAC defence protocal. How is Tanzania supposed to conduct her military policy when it is a signatory of both SADC and EAC defence protocals??

NB:

..Angola has not asked SADC assistance to support her military involvement in Bamako, and Guinea Bissau.

..to me Angola is a very interesting country considering the way it is trying to assert herself militarily and economically.

..i read Angola invested about $ 500 million in bauxite mining in Guinea Bissau!!

Mkuu Joka Kuu,

I read you and this is a simmilarity. The way Angola is asserting herself militarlity is primarily the same way Uganda is asserting herself. We have to acknowledge both these countries despite of their role in their specified regions. hapo Kwenye Purple....This defense protocol would likely have its use to contain simmilar situations within the EA region. They are not to act as greenlights for member states to stage incursions one to the other. Hapo kwenye Red.........., PS don't ask how Tanzania is to manouvre to apply her policies militarily once she has made up her mind to be signatories of both EAC & SADC. If she is projecting there is something to gain from both, then she should not be suspicious because EAC will never die, no one will bypass any treaties. So long as such protocols exist, be assured that no country will try to ignite any threat.

NB. what JWTZ did in UG is commendable and I am just using this as an example because KE is being accused of war-minded-ideoligies. As history has proven when a country goes to war, it is for the best of its interests. About the Second congo war, there was open hostility showed by Rwanda towards DRC, that it was hosting rebels who were a threat towards the then prominent party RPF. But I need you to agree with me that even up to now despite Angola's economic interests within the whole continent, she nevertheless features prominently in ------Conglolese-political -affairs****. She decides which governments are best to install in DRC and currently in Bamako and Guinea Bissau. We are still yet to find out her role in endorsing Kabila and none other via election mal-practise.

You can see from that scenario that the best place to be is EAC for the following reasons.

1. Rwanda is reformed no more suspicions about DRC hosting rebels.
2. Uganda is following (KONY2012) and not any country's soveriegnity.
3. Kenya is a beckon of hope and has never excersiced any intention of igniting threats towards any country(internal political unrest notwithstanding).
4. Burundi and Djibouti are emerging fast as stable nations never gone to war and does not seem to hold such intentions.

 

[Lenana]

tanzania should just choose one eac or sadc not put two legs in different roads like the proverbial nyangau that split into two coz of tamaa

The same applied unto Kenya you should choose btn EGAD, over EAC

 

[eliakeem]

While ignoring the bad and old cancer "politics", kenya has the best diplomatic relations in the continent. You have localised everything even language which makes you fail the amiability test.

If I read on and between the lines you sound like embracing colonial legacy.... and, that is not diplomatic relations, better to call colonial hangover.....

I have been in South America, Latin America, Continental Europe, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.... majority (some of them are termed as prof. dr dr -academic title) don't know the Queen language.... they have localised their language. But are miles far ahead to you (kenyans) who claim that unlocalised (simply becoz u use Queen lingua)

 

[FJM]

Kabaridi,

Hivi ulidhani kenya ilikwenda somali kwenye vita sababu ya alshabaab?!! What is this insect called Alshabaab?!
Serikali ya Kenya ilisema inaenda Somalia kufuata nini?

 

[Kabaridi]

If I read on and between the lines you sound like embracing colonial legacy.... and, that is not diplomatic relations, better to call colonial hangover.....

I have been in South America, Latin America, Continental Europe, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.... majority (some of them are termed as prof. dr dr -academic title) don't know the Queen language.... they have localised their language. But are miles far ahead to you (kenyans) who claim that unlocalised (simply becoz u use Queen lingua)

That is true, but you cannot equate equate Kenya's economic status with Hispanic Nations, most of these are now resorting to English as a global language, which remains the language of choice for Many people around the world.

I cannot figure why Africa should remain economically unviable to preserve an African identity which is not beneficial.

 

[eliakeem]

That is true, but you cannot equate equate Kenya's economic status with Hispanic Nations, most of these are now resorting to English as a global language, which remains the language of choice for Many people around the world. I cannot figure why Africa should remain economically unviable to preserve an African identity which is not beneficial.

You sound learned..... my small question...... who to make beneficial!!???

 

[Kabaridi]

Kabaridi,

Hivi ulidhani kenya ilikwenda somali kwenye vita sababu ya alshabaab?!! What is this insect called Alshabaab?!
Serikali ya Kenya ilisema inaenda Somalia kufuata nini?

OMG! my friend. You still haven't read along the lines? Does this need any clarification? The way piracy inaua biashara karika Indian ocean belt, do I need to explain the reason why kenya is confronting extremists. Anyways the incursion has a two-fold purpose which are primarily LAPSSET and secondarily quell the effects of extremist activities at the coastal region.

 

[Kabaridi]

You sound learned..... my small question...... who to make beneficial!!???

Why do we want to revolve around a small issue? Let us then assume if you want us to decipher the use of the "Queens language", there are so many items associated with your so called "colonial hangover" you should also consider deciphering like the Queen's education and government/political systems you are trying to re-invent via "swahiliism"!!!

 

[FJM]

OMG! my friend. You still haven't read along the lines? Does this need any clarification? The way piracy inaua biashara karika Indian ocean belt, do I need to explain the reason why kenya is confronting extremists. Anyways the incursion has a two-fold purpose which are primarily LAPSSET and secondarily quell the effects of extremist activities at the coastal region.

Nani anafanya piracy na yuko wapi huyo anayefanya piracy?
Naamini umefuatilia hii debabte vizuri, sasa, niambie kwa nini unafikiri serikali ya Kenya iko 'right' ya kupambana na madhira ya pircay lakini isiwe sahihi kwa Tanzania kupambana na uchokozi wa Idd Amin?

 

[Kabaridi]

Nani anafanya piracy na yuko wapi huyo anayefanya piracy?
Naamini umefuatilia hii debabte vizuri, sasa, niambie kwa nini unafikiri serikali ya Kenya iko 'right' ya kupambana na madhira ya pircay lakini isiwe sahihi kwa Tanzania kupambana na uchokozi wa Idd Amin?

@ FJM, let there be no deviation from the topic at hand. I explained why I used the Tanzania incursion, that it was a point of reference and no that there is anything wrong with it. Tanzania has every right to quell any agression just like Kenya has every right to defend its interests. So, at least on this point we are on the same footing. But this should not be reason to delay signing key defense treaties in the name of "potential threats" like most forumers are posting.

 

[eliakeem]

Why do we want to revolve around a small issue? Let us then assume if you want us to decipher the use of the "Queens language", there are so many items associated with your so called "colonial hangover" you should also consider deciphering like the Queen's education and government/political systems you are trying to re-invent via "swahiliism"!!!

Sure..... we have a lot of colonial origin.... but we need to be clever than the cleverer...... drop them down and think on our own..... this will heal us from depending on Washington consensus as our thinking tank....
Asian (small) Tigers + Giant China are making it why the mighty Africa!!????

 

[Highlander]

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Not same protocol presented in Bujumbura...i have both copies:nono:

Samahani Bantugbro, tafadhali nirushie ile copy ya awali? Hata kama ni kwenye PM

 

[Kabaridi]

Sure..... we have a lot of colonial origin.... but we need to be clever than the cleverer...... drop them down and think on our own..... this will heal us from depending on Washington consensus as our thinking tank....
Asian (small) Tigers + Giant China are making it why the mighty Africa!!????

OK, if you would like to white-wash everything that has a colonial/western angle, I do not think what will be created from the foundation will be any different from what they left. And the issue here is not intellectual dependance on washington consensus or Asian tigers, because there are so many things we have embraced either directly or indirectly that originate from colonial/western blueprints. I have a mighty question which I know you will stumble upon. What have we as liberal/independent African governments or people managed to achieve over the years other than causing tribulation and strife for our people through politics and incompetence?

 

[Highlander]

Nani anafanya piracy na yuko wapi huyo anayefanya piracy?
Naamini umefuatilia hii debabte vizuri, sasa, niambie kwa nini unafikiri serikali ya Kenya iko 'right' ya kupambana na madhira ya pircay lakini isiwe sahihi kwa Tanzania kupambana na uchokozi wa Idd Amin?

NAOMBA MSAADA WANAJUKWAA. KUNA KITU NASHINDWA KUKIELEWA. Kwa nini kila wakati pakitokea mabishano kuhusu matatizo katika jumuia ya Afrika Mashariki, hatima yake huwa ni matatizo kati ya Kenya na Tanzania? Kwa nini?

 

[FJM]

NAOMBA MSAADA WANAJUKWAA. KUNA KITU NASHINDWA KUKIELEWA. Kwa nini kila wakati pakitokea mabishano kuhusu matatizo katika jumuia ya Afrika Mashariki, hatima yake huwa ni matatizo kati ya Kenya na Tanzania? Kwa nini?

Hii ni jumuiya ya Afrika Mashariki ya pili na ili nyingine ilipokufa iliamuliwa watu wagawane mbao, and guess what?

 

[Kabaridi]

NAOMBA MSAADA WANAJUKWAA. KUNA KITU NASHINDWA KUKIELEWA. Kwa nini kila wakati pakitokea mabishano kuhusu matatizo katika jumuia ya Afrika Mashariki, hatima yake huwa ni matatizo kati ya Kenya na Tanzania? Kwa nini?

Tanzania wanataka kutumia historia kama kigezo cha kukubali au kukataa mikataba. Na niwakumbushe kukaa kitako kwenye historia mara nyingi huzuia mafanikio ya maendeleo!!

 

[Highlander]

Hii ni jumuiya ya Afrika Mashariki ya pili na ili nyingine ilipokufa iliamuliwa watu wagawane mbao, and guess what?

Mbao zote zilibebwa na kenya. au? ha ha ha