The Growing Myth that Christian institutions are benefiting from GOVT subsidies

[Geza Ulole]

Is the Government footing the bill for the salaries of the Christian run Educational Institutions member staff?.

yes for hospitals since the institutions provide services the government could not! and not only Christian run hospitals but even salaries of hospital workers from other denominations

 

[Gamba la Nyoka]

yes for hospitals since the institutions provide services the government could not! and not only Christian run hospitals but even salaries of hospital workers from other denominations

Thanks for the Answer, but I just asked about whether the government is paying the salaries to staff who run the churche's education institutions, could you give me an insight of this, i mean schools such as st. Marian, st Anthony, etc, and universities such as St August, Tumaini Univ etc?

And would you elaborate more about the statements which I have underlined, do you mean hospitals such as Hindu mandal, The Aga khan, some other Muslims run hospitals also benefit from the government service of paying their staff or?

 

[Mwanamageuko]

I disagree with you. Islamic Institutions do not depend on govt. subsides to pay the salary to its employee. This is FALSE argument.

Christians scholars, church, launch a massive fear campaign against JK; because he denies them govt. subsides.

Acha ubishi usiwo na UKWELI, JK anaandamwa na kanisa kwa sababu ya kusema ukweli.

Mwambie alete USHAHIDI na si USHUHUDA!!

 

[Kudadeki]

.... if one opts to sit on it, that being, on their very own rear, doing nothing in the procees whilst others are buisy, well involved in all sorts of socio-economic activities I do not think that you even ought to guess who could be elligible for whatever what might be termed as benefits or waivers, be it in taxes or whatsoever.
The art of sitting down on ones rear is well enjoyed in that huge coastland, that territory which is well inhabited by lazy bones of various calibre. Had it been that tsetsefly and the associated sickness is the main cause to KULALA TU, one could even attribute to sloppiness in thinking to the same affliction, only that it is not! Animists, Pagans awake and demand your share as well!!! That too is faith aint it?

Sasa jitu kama hili Kweli linaweza kuvumilia kuona mtu wa Pwani akiwa raisi wake? Sasa akikimbilia kwa paroko wa zamani wa kanisa lake na akikumbushwa kuwa Tanzania kuwa UDINI na WADINI basi anakuwa MKALI kama mbwa mwitu kwa maana kashikwa pabaya!

 

[Geza Ulole]

Thanks for the Answer, but I just asked about whether the government is paying the salaries to staff who run the churche's education institutions, could you give me an insight of this, i mean schools such as st. Marian, st Anthony, etc, and universities such as St August, Tumaini Univ etc?

And would you elaborate more about the statements which I have underlined, do you mean hospitals such as Hindu mandal, The Aga khan, some other Muslims run hospitals also benefit from the government service of paying their staff or?

well GOT foots bills of workers in the religious health institutions, that one i know! but religious education institutions, they don't though GOT still they give loans to the students and give tax cuts on construction materials used! Meanwhile Hindu Mandal and Aga Khan are also Non-profitable institutions of which i am not sure if they get the assistance from the Govt on their salary bills. But the only thing i can tell you there must be a criteria for an institution to qualify since a Non-Profitable institution at international standards can mean a Profitable one in TZ! so we shouldn't be quick to compare! it will make more sense if we get the criteria for an institution to qualify! BTW those two institutions don't cover the majority of Tanzanians i.e. the poor in the remote areas...

 

[Mdondoaji]

Geza ulole kabla hujaendelea na hii thread yako ya kidini nakushauri kwanza ungelikuja na takwimu zenye kuonyesha hizo hospitali za kanisa zimekuwa zikisaidia jamii ya watanzania wote tanzania. Pili ungelituletea vipengele vinvyoonyesha their memos zinasemaje kuhusu watu wa dini nyengine wanapotaka kuingia wanakuwa treated kama vp (nitakupa mfano St. Joseph (sasa ni Forodhani Sec and Primary School) ilikuwa watoto wa kikatoliki na madhehebu mengine ndio priority wengine ni mmoja mmoja lazima uwe na merit ndio wakuchukue) sasa ilikuwa kama ni ubaguzi fulani maana mavilaza wengine humo darasani walichukulie simply kwasababu ya dini yao. Sasa tuambie hizo so called huduma za jamii ni za jamii ipi??

Mwisho kabisa naomba nikutahadharishe sana Aga Khan International is charity organisation from Prince Aga Khan kama ilivyo Bill Gates Foundation sasa hivi Tanzania. Sasa tupe mifano halisi islamic organisation za bongo zenye kunufaika na hiyo misaada ambayo serikali inayotoa kwa jumuiya za kikristo. Hindu Mandal ni charity organisation pia but for waumini wa Shree Hindu. Sasa tuambia jumuiya za kiislamu kama hujakuta chache mno, dhaifu na hazina mfumo wakueleweka. Na si kweli unayosema eti Muslim University Serikali inalipa kwani ile ni private university hakuna chembe ya senti ya serikali inaenda kule zaidi ya subsidies inayozipata kama universities similar like Tumaini, and St. Augustine.

 

[Thesi]

ACCORDING TO MARXISM APROACH defines religion as an instrument of exploitation whereby few people ie.Pastors, bioshop,sisters,etc exploits the masses.

HAPO UTAJUWA KWA NINI WA2 HUANZSHA MAKANISA,kwi kwi kwi!

Pasco haina maana kuwa definition ya Marxism ndio maana halisi ya religion. Marxisms wanatafsiri hivo make hawaamini dini hiyo ni definition ya critisism. Si kwamba nawatetea wanadini kuwa cku zote wanafanya mambo mema lakini kukuonyesha that is not the true definition but criticism defition. Dini zina mapungufu zao lakini pia zina faida lukuki. Ni kweli dini zinatumiwa na viongozi wa dini kujinufaisha mfano popes are very powerful na hata walitawala karne nyingi kwa kutumia dini. Pia mtume Mohamad alitumia dini kupanda kupata umaarufu mkubwa na kuwa tajiri na mpaka sasa waarabu wametumia dini kuwaabrainwash waarabu wenzao na kuwatawala. Wametumia dini kukataa utawala unaotaokana na watu na kung'ang'ania uongozi kwa kujificha nyuma ya dini.

Lakini huo ni upande mmoja lakini upande wa pili kuna faida nyingi za dini. Angalia uongozi cecularism ambao unatenganisha dini na siasa na umefanikiwa kwa kiasi kikubwa kuleta tawala zinazoongozwa na raia na si viongozi wa dini au wanajeshi ni wazo lililoko ndani ndani ya Bible: ya kaizari ya kaizari na ya Mungu ya Mungu hivo usibeze dini. Hao ulowaquote Marxisms ndo utawala wao una sura za Kidikteta na utawala ndio maana hata baba yao Urusi anazitupilia mbali sasa hivi.

 

[Geza Ulole]

Geza ulole kabla hujaendelea na hii thread yako ya kidini nakushauri kwanza ungelikuja na takwimu zenye kuonyesha hizo hospitali za kanisa zimekuwa zikisaidia jamii ya watanzania wote tanzania. Pili ungelituletea vipengele vinvyoonyesha their memos zinasemaje kuhusu watu wa dini nyengine wanapotaka kuingia wanakuwa treated kama vp (nitakupa mfano St. Joseph (sasa ni Forodhani Sec and Primary School) ilikuwa watoto wa kikatoliki na madhehebu mengine ndio priority wengine ni mmoja mmoja lazima uwe na merit ndio wakuchukue) sasa ilikuwa kama ni ubaguzi fulani maana mavilaza wengine humo darasani walichukulie simply kwasababu ya dini yao. Sasa tuambie hizo so called huduma za jamii ni za jamii ipi??

Mwisho kabisa naomba nikutahadharishe sana Aga Khan International is charity organisation from Prince Aga Khan kama ilivyo Bill Gates Foundation sasa hivi Tanzania. Sasa tupe mifano halisi islamic organisation za bongo zenye kunufaika na hiyo misaada ambayo serikali inayotoa kwa jumuiya za kikristo. Hindu Mandal ni charity organisation pia but for waumini wa Shree Hindu. Sasa tuambia jumuiya za kiislamu kama hujakuta chache mno, dhaifu na hazina mfumo wakueleweka. Na si kweli unayosema eti Muslim University Serikali inalipa kwani ile ni private university hakuna chembe ya senti ya serikali inaenda kule zaidi ya subsidies inayozipata kama universities similar like Tumaini, and St. Augustine.

Nathani sijasema hiki kitu! nilichotaka ni kueleza ukweli ya kuwa ni kitu gani serikali ya Tanzania inasaidia kwa taasisi hizi na kuondoa upotoshaji! na nikaeleza kama kutolipa kodi au kupewa mikopo kwa wanafunzi wake na pia kwa hospitali kulipwa mishahara kwa madaktari... Pia wewe unayekataa kwamba taasisi hizo hazisaidii mamilioni ya Watanzania ngoja nikupe figure roughly Bugando Medical center inahudumia zaidi ya watu million 13 (Weill Cornell Bugando Program - Global Health | Weill Cornell Medical College), KCMC inahudumia around millioni 11, pia St Walburga's Hospital huko Nyagao Lindi inahudumia zaidi ya watu milioni moja bila kusahau Permiho hospital inayouguza mamilioni ya watu huko kusini mwa Tanzania (http://www.peramiho.org/en/health/health2.html)! ukiachia mbali Ifakara Hospital (http://www.ifakara.org/en/st-francis-hospital/hospital.php?catid=55) mamilioni ya watu Morogoro! kuhusu Aga Khan Hospitals, naendelea kusisitiza Aga Khan Development Network ni institution iliyo chini ya Ismaili-Muslims ikiongoza na Prince Aga Khan kwa hiyo ni taasisi ya dini (Aga Khan Development Network - About us: Ismaili Community)! Kuhusu suala la St Joseph nathani kama unachukuliwa on merit then furahi maana nathani ni ukweli usiopingika hizo taasisi haziwezi kuchukua watu wote nafasi ni chache! na kama hawakuchukua hongo then shukuru! ila ubaguzi unaosema sidhani kama kuna ukweli!
Na udhaifu wa taasisi za Kiislam sijui nikusaidie vp nathani wewe na mimi tunaweza kudiriki kusema management ya hizo taasisi si nzuri maana tumeona na kukubali hilo ila tu; tujue hamna Mkono wa Mkristu unaosababisha hayo...kama tunavyotaka kuaminishwa humu jamvini! ndio maana nimejaribu kuelezea maana kuna mambo yanapotoshwa tunapoelekea ndugu zetu Waislam wanaweza kuona kila udhaifu walio nao sababu ni ndugu zetu Wakristo!

 

[ngwendu]

kiuhalisia ni kwamba shule za kikristo wanaosoma ni wakristo tuache kuongopeana na hao waislam ni chambo tu kuficha ule uhalisia, Nenda pale Muslim university halafu uniambie umekuta wakristo wangapi, kama si 0.1%. Nenda KCMC (tumaini zote) ni hivyo hivyo, the same to bugando (st. augustine zote) na wote hawa wanapata mikopo kutoka serikalini. kama ndo hivyo kwa nini wasilipe kodi? kwani kodi inaenda kwa nani? si kwetu sote? kama ni barabara situnapita wote? kwanini baadhi wapitishe magari tu na huku hawataki kuchangia kuzitengeneza? Kama ni hospitali za rufaa kama bugando, kcmc, mbeya etc, zote wafanyakazi wote wanalipwa na serikali (I mean kuanzia madaktari, mafamasia, manesi, matu wamaabara na takataka zote zilizobaki) sasa nyinyi watu mnataka nini? mbona wagomvi kihivyo? Jamaa nchi ni yetu sote na lazima tuwe tayari kuijenga sote na si kutegea. mleta maada nilichoona kwenye thread yako ni uelewa mdogo juu ya kinachoendelea, nivizuri ukauliza kwanza kuliko kubebwabebwa tu, hapo ndo utakapojua ukweli nda ndipo utakapoona umhimu wa haki sawa kwa wote.

 

[Insurgent]

Mkapa was clever, after his government signed MoU with TEC that profited the Christian Institutions and raising their number astromically. He came with idea of giving Muslim TANESCO college in Morogoro to neutralize what he had already done.

These people today are getting free lands, tax exemptions, etc, after they have invested and provided services for 10 years at subsidized rates and change into Commercial Institutions who will block them? They are getting soft take-off and the future belongs to them. We don't know what visions they hold for themselves.

Government should provide Education and not religious Institutions.

 

[Kazi Ndiyo Kipimo Cha Utu]

Nathani sijasema hiki kitu! nilichotaka ni kueleza ukweli ya kuwa ni kitu gani serikali ya Tanzania inasaidia kwa taasisi hizi na kuondoa upotoshaji! na nikaeleza kama kutolipa kodi au kupewa mikopo kwa wanafunzi wake na pia kwa hospitali kulipwa mishahara kwa madaktari... Pia wewe unayekataa kwamba taasisi hizo hazisaidii mamilioni ya Watanzania ngoja nikupe figure roughly Bugando Medical center inahudumia zaidi ya watu million 13 (Weill Cornell Bugando Program - Global Health | Weill Cornell Medical College), KCMC inahudumia around millioni 11, pia St Walburga's Hospital huko Nyagao Lindi inahudumia zaidi ya watu milioni moja bila kusahau Permiho hospital inayouguza mamilioni ya watu huko kusini mwa Tanzania (http://www.peramiho.org/en/health/health2.html)! ukiachia mbali Ifakara Hospital (Hospital) mamilioni ya watu Morogoro! kuhusu Aga Khan Hospitals, naendelea kusisitiza Aga Khan Development Network ni institution iliyo chini ya Ismaili-Muslims ikiongoza na Prince Aga Khan kwa hiyo ni taasisi ya dini (Aga Khan Development Network - About us: Ismaili Community)! Kuhusu suala la St Joseph nathani kama unachukuliwa on merit then furahi maana nathani ni ukweli usiopingika hizo taasisi haziwezi kuchukua watu wote nafasi ni chache! na kama hawakuchukua hongo then shukuru! ila ubaguzi unaosema sidhani kama kuna ukweli!
Na udhaifu wa taasisi za Kiislam sijui nikusaidie vp nathani wewe na mimi tunaweza kudiriki kusema management ya hizo taasisi si nzuri maana tumeona na kukubali hilo ila tu; tujue hamna Mkono wa Mkristu unaosababisha hayo...kama tunavyotaka kuaminishwa humu jamvini! ndio maana nimejaribu kuelezea maana kuna mambo yanapotoshwa tunapoelekea ndugu zetu Waislam wanaweza kuona kila udhaifu walio nao sababu ni ndugu zetu Wakristo!

Kati ya makosa ambayo Mh. Rais Mstaafu Mkapa amelifanya na hili limo.Hizi Hospitali ,shule na vyuo vilivyokuwa awali vinamilikiwa na mashirika ya dini vilitaifishwa na Mwl. JKN na Baada ya kutaifishwa zaidi ya miaka 30 ilipita na serikali imewekeza kupitia majengo,vitendea kazi na nguvu kazi kwa fedha ya walipa kodi. kitendo cha Rais mstaafu kuvirudisha kwa kutoa kauli kwamba hayo mashirika ya dini yaliomba na yeye kutumia mwanya wa katiba kiraka kuwa mbovu na kufikia maamuzi mtu mmoja kwa kweli hakuwatendea haki watanzania wote bila ya kujali itikadi zao za kidini.Ni bora wangekubaliana kulipa fidia kama alikuwa anaona kuna haja ya kufanya hivyo ili haya mashirika ya dini yakusanye nguvu na kujenga upya kwani kile walichotaifishiwa miaka zaidi ya 30 hakilingani na kile walichorudishiwa.Lakini hili lilifanywa kimkakati kwani viongozi walishauziana nyumba zilizotaifishwa na za serikali kwa bei ya kutupwa,mashirika ya umma,viwanda na mali nyingi za serikali ziliuzwa kwa bei ya kutupwa na nyingine kujiuzia wenyewe njia pekee ya kuwazima midomo viongozi wa dini ni kuendelea kuwadhulumu walipa kodi wote wa nchi hii kwa kuwapa mashirika hayo ya dini kile ambacho taifa iliwekeza bure na haikuishia hapo walipoona kina Kitwana Kondo watabwabwaja wakaja na mpango mwengine wa kuwadhulumu watanzania wote kama walipa kodi na wenye mali kwa kuyatoa majengo yao ya Chuo cha Tanesco kwa kina Kitwana Kondo kwa jina la kuwapa waislamu majengo hayo wayatumie kama Chuo Cha Kiislamu.
Mimi sioni tatizo la serikali kuchangia gharama kwenye hospitali au shule za mashirika ya dini kama shule ,vyuo au hospitali hizo zinawapunguzia wananchi gharama kwasababu serikali inachangia fedha zao kama walipa kodi tatizo linakuja pale wanapojiendesha kibiashara na hawana punguzo kwa wananchi hata pale fedha yao kama walipa kodi inapochangia uendeshwaji wa vyombo Hivyo.

 

[Bongolander]

How fair are the Christian Educational Institutions in providing Education to all Tanzanians without regard to their faiths?
Is the large convicing percent of people from other faiths benefiting from these institutions as well or it is just a picky inclusion of few of them inorder to avoid criticism, while perhaps these institutions purposely serve the majority of their students (Christians) at all tax payers money if any?

Gamba la Nyoka, you have raised good points, which needs clarity. What does it mean when we say these institutions are being funded by tax payers money, and how is that being done? Are the monies that fund these institution come from government coffers, does the parliament authorize this kind of spending? Do councilors in local governments allow things like this to happen? Unless it is intelligently explained and clarified this will remain to be bollocks.

We all know that you can not get to certain religious institutions (both Christian and Islamic) if the purpose of these institution is solely relious, i.e to train the would be clerics. I am sure we have a couple of these institutions in Tanzania. I will be first to demonstrate my dissatisfaction if they are being funded by tax payers money, because it will be stupid. No need for our government to invest in religion, let people do that in their capacity.

Can we again tell without a doubt that selection process in Christian educational institutions is biased? Is being Christian a criteria for selection in these schools? I have also been told that all referral hospitals in Tanzania (Christian mission hospitals, Muhimbili, dispensaries included) are Christian, and it is Christians who get better medical attention that others. I wonder whether this myth still circulates in the air.

I also heard that UDSM is swamped by Christians, it is only them who excel and muslims are always discontinued, up to now no one has been able to provide concrete evidence on this. Because there is a good number of muslims who are doing very well.

The problem that we have is that there is a cultural difference between Muslims and Christians. It looks like education and success are pillars of Christians faith, and religious excellence is the priority for muslims, this not bad. But it is the one which holds back muslims, those who balance between education and religion are doing fine. Those who choose to invest heavily in religion are the ones who have this myth that they are being marginalised, but in fact they marginalise themselves.

Guys let us keep this thread in English, so as religious fanatics and those who are politically bankrupt, morally retarded can not pollute this thread. I stand to be challenged and collected.

 

[morio]

Hey bros n sisters, stop dis nonsenses! Before rangi nyeupe awe muarabu au mzungu tulikuwa na dini zetu as Africans, someone tell me ni lini walikuja huku kwetu, then before that all our babus n bibis went to hell as they want us to believe? Napata shida kuamini JF as home of great thinkers there are still foolishes who talk about about I am christian or am muslim or pagan, we are all human being hizi imani za kuletewa zisitugawe plz, kila nikiona thread ya mara fulani mdini, oohhh wale wa dini fulani natamani kufanya mazungumzo na mwandishi kucheck ubongo wake if kweli anastahili kuchangia a clever forum like dis. Tuna mambo mengi ya kuhangaika nayo kujitoa kwenye umasikini as Tzs not sijui me wa din fulani! C' moon fellow u can be smarter than that.

 

[Ubumuntu]

QUOTE=Gurudumu;Sasa, swali langu siyo la udini bali uwazi na uwajibikai. Makanisa yote hukusanya sadaka nyingi sana pamoja na michango kwa ajili ya miradi mbalimbali. Pesa hizi hutumika vipi, na waumini hushirikishwa katika maamuzi ya kuzitumia?

Kwa wakatoliki,pesa zote zilizopatikana kwa michango na sadaka utangazwa kila jumapili. Na kuna kamati ya fedha ambayo uwakilisha mapato na matumizi kwa waumini katika kipindi cha kufunga mwaka wa kanisa. Izo ndo njia kuu ya accountability juu ya sadaka na michango.

 

[Ubumuntu]

QUOTE=morio;Hey bros n sisters, stop dis nonsenses! Before rangi nyeupe awe muarabu au mzungu tulikuwa na dini zetu as Africans, someone tell me ni lini walikuja huku kwetu, then before that all our babus n bibis went to hell as they want us to believe? Napata shida kuamini JF as home of great thinkers there are still foolishes who talk about about I am christian or am muslim or pagan, we are all human being hizi imani za kuletewa zisitugawe plz, kila nikiona thread ya mara fulani mdini, oohhh wale wa dini fulani natamani kufanya mazungumzo na mwandishi kucheck ubongo wake if kweli anastahili kuchangia a clever forum like dis. Tuna mambo mengi ya kuhangaika nayo kujitoa kwenye umasikini as Tzs not sijui me wa din fulani! C' moon fellow u can be smarter than that.

Well said brother.

 

[Geza Ulole]

Kati ya makosa ambayo Mh. Rais Mstaafu Mkapa amelifanya na hili limo.Hizi Hospitali ,shule na vyuo vilivyokuwa awali vinamilikiwa na mashirika ya dini vilitaifishwa na Mwl. JKN na Baada ya kutaifishwa zaidi ya miaka 30 ilipita na serikali imewekeza kupitia majengo,vitendea kazi na nguvu kazi kwa fedha ya walipa kodi. kitendo cha Rais mstaafu kuvirudisha kwa kutoa kauli kwamba hayo mashirika ya dini yaliomba na yeye kutumia mwanya wa katiba kiraka kuwa mbovu na kufikia maamuzi mtu mmoja kwa kweli hakuwatendea haki watanzania wote bila ya kujali itikadi zao za kidini.Ni bora wangekubaliana kulipa fidia kama alikuwa anaona kuna haja ya kufanya hivyo ili haya mashirika ya dini yakusanye nguvu na kujenga upya kwani kile walichotaifishiwa miaka zaidi ya 30 hakilingani na kile walichorudishiwa.Lakini hili lilifanywa kimkakati kwani viongozi walishauziana nyumba zilizotaifishwa na za serikali kwa bei ya kutupwa,mashirika ya umma,viwanda na mali nyingi za serikali ziliuzwa kwa bei ya kutupwa na nyingine kujiuzia wenyewe njia pekee ya kuwazima midomo viongozi wa dini ni kuendelea kuwadhulumu walipa kodi wote wa nchi hii kwa kuwapa mashirika hayo ya dini kile ambacho taifa iliwekeza bure na haikuishia hapo walipoona kina Kitwana Kondo watabwabwaja wakaja na mpango mwengine wa kuwadhulumu watanzania wote kama walipa kodi na wenye mali kwa kuyatoa majengo yao ya Chuo cha Tanesco kwa kina Kitwana Kondo kwa jina la kuwapa waislamu majengo hayo wayatumie kama Chuo Cha Kiislamu.
Mimi sioni tatizo la serikali kuchangia gharama kwenye hospitali au shule za mashirika ya dini kama shule ,vyuo au hospitali hizo zinawapunguzia wananchi gharama kwasababu serikali inachangia fedha zao kama walipa kodi tatizo linakuja pale wanapojiendesha kibiashara na hawana punguzo kwa wananchi hata pale fedha yao kama walipa kodi inapochangia uendeshwaji wa vyombo Hivyo.

Hili si kweli tasisi nyingi zimerudishwa zikiwa choka mbaya! angalia Bugando na KCMC walikuwa na nia ya kuzifanya vyuo tangu miaka hiyo ya 70 lakini hili limewezekana miaka ya 90-00, sasa unaposema serikali iliwezesha kirasilimali nashindwa kukuelewa mbona hawakuzipanua? nachoweza kukupali labda nguvu kazi ambapo ni wajibu wa serikali kwanza ikishirikiana na taasisi binafsi ambazo hulazimika ku-fill the gap!

 

[Geza Ulole]

Mkapa was clever, after his government signed MoU with TEC that profited the Christian Institutions and raising their number astromically. He came with idea of giving Muslim TANESCO college in Morogoro to neutralize what he had already done.

These people today are getting free lands, tax exemptions, etc, after they have invested and provided services for 10 years at subsidized rates and change into Commercial Institutions who will block them? They are getting soft take-off and the future belongs to them. We don't know what visions they hold for themselves.

Government should provide Education and not religious Institutions.

If they become commercial institutions; they will have to pay tax! and the Govt will earn revenues...isn't that beautiful?
yes it should! but if it fails to reach all the people should the private institutions sit back and only observe and have a nation of illiterates?

 

[Geza Ulole]

Gamba la Nyoka, you have raised good points, which needs clarity. What does it mean when we say these institutions are being funded by tax payers money, and how is that being done? Are the monies that fund these institution come from government coffers, does the parliament authorize this kind of spending? Do councilors in local governments allow things like this to happen? Unless it is intelligently explained and clarified this will remain to be bollocks.

We all know that you can not get to certain religious institutions (both Christian and Islamic) if the purpose of these institution is solely relious, i.e to train the would be clerics. I am sure we have a couple of these institutions in Tanzania. I will be first to demonstrate my dissatisfaction if they are being funded by tax payers money, because it will be stupid. No need for our government to invest in religion, let people do that in their capacity.

Can we again tell without a doubt that selection process in Christian educational institutions is biased? Is being Christian a criteria for selection in these schools? I have also been told that all referral hospitals in Tanzania (Christian mission hospitals, Muhimbili, dispensaries included) are Christian, and it is Christians who get better medical attention that others. I wonder whether this myth still circulates in the air.

I also heard that UDSM is swamped by Christians, it is only them who excel and muslims are always discontinued, up to now no one has been able to provide concrete evidence on this. Because there is a good number of muslims who are doing very well.

The problem that we have is that there is a cultural difference between Muslims and Christians. It looks like education and success are pillars of Christians faith, and religious excellence is the priority for muslims, this not bad. But it is the one which holds back muslims, those who balance between education and religion are doing fine. Those who choose to invest heavily in religion are the ones who have this myth that they are being marginalised, but in fact they marginalise themselves.

Guys let us keep this thread in English, so as religious fanatics and those who are politically bankrupt, morally retarded can not pollute this thread. I stand to be challenged and collected.

Economists may ask you, what is the cost of having a society with no moral upbringings? on things like integrity, rule of law, democracy and accountability! have you ever asked yourself of a situation that there is no religion how will human beings act? guess what all the jails will be full of law breakers! the cost of having no religions far outweighs the cost of educating the few clerics who induct the sense order in the society's minds! I think every one acknowledge the role of religion on good citizenry!

 

[Bongolander]

kiuhalisia ni kwamba shule za kikristo wanaosoma ni wakristo tuache kuongopeana na hao waislam ni chambo tu kuficha ule uhalisia, Nenda pale Muslim university halafu uniambie umekuta wakristo wangapi, kama si 0.1%. Nenda KCMC (tumaini zote) ni hivyo hivyo, the same to bugando (st. augustine zote) na wote hawa wanapata mikopo kutoka serikalini. kama ndo hivyo kwa nini wasilipe kodi? kwani kodi inaenda kwa nani? si kwetu sote? kama ni barabara situnapita wote? kwanini baadhi wapitishe magari tu na huku hawataki kuchangia kuzitengeneza? Kama ni hospitali za rufaa kama bugando, kcmc, mbeya etc, zote wafanyakazi wote wanalipwa na serikali (I mean kuanzia madaktari, mafamasia, manesi, matu wamaabara na takataka zote zilizobaki) sasa nyinyi watu mnataka nini? mbona wagomvi kihivyo? Jamaa nchi ni yetu sote na lazima tuwe tayari kuijenga sote na si kutegea. mleta maada nilichoona kwenye thread yako ni uelewa mdogo juu ya kinachoendelea, nivizuri ukauliza kwanza kuliko kubebwabebwa tu, hapo ndo utakapojua ukweli nda ndipo utakapoona umhimu wa haki sawa kwa wote.

Mkuu sasa kwanini hao waislamu wanaofanywa chambo wasisusie hizo shule? Kwanini wanakubali kufanywa chambo? Kwanini wasiende kwenye shule za waislamu. Ina maana waislamu wote hapa Tanzania ni wajinga, au wanafanywa wajinga? Mbona Zanzibar kuna waislamu wengi kuliko bara lakini matataizo yapo vilevile, au nao wanaweza kusema ni serikali ya Muungano au wakristo wacahce walioko kule ndio inawaletea matatizo? Kuna mkuu mmoja hapa jamvini anaitwa malaria sugu, alianzisha threa moja ina-point nzuri sana kuhusu elimu na waislamu, lakini ajabu hakusema lolote kuhusu nini kifanyike ili waislamu wawe na elimu, alillalamika tu kuwa "17 Christian University, One Islamic university". Ukiangalia thread nyingi zinazoanzishwa na watu wenye elements fulani zinazoeleka kwenye hiyo myth, hata siku moja hawatoi concrete evidence ila ni shutuma tu, wengine hata hawajui kuna wakati rais, waziri wa elimu, katibu wa wizara hiyo, maka watendaji wengi walikuwa waislamu na walikuwa wanaona kila kilichokuwa kinaendelea. Did they betray their fellow musilms?

Kuna wakati baada ya uchaguzi 2005 kuna wakuu walisikika wakisema sasa tumechukua nchi, and they vowed ti change what they believed to be oppressive system to Muslims, what has gone wrong, haven't they seen the system which they said is oppressive to muslims? Ukweli ni kuwa haipo.

Tatizo ni kwamba watu wanasema wanajua lakini hawasemei wanachokijua, wanasema kimejificha au ni siri, lakini kukiweka wazi hawakati. Ukiwapeleka shsuleni hata kwenye shule za waisamu zenyewe angalia performance yao ovyo kweli.

I will be very glad to see someone coming out with concrete evidence aseme, wakristo wanapendelewa hivi na wasiamu wanaonewa hivi.

 

[Bongolander]

economists may ask you, what is the cost of having a society with no moral upbringings? on things like integrity, rule of law, democracy and accountability! have you ever asked yourself of a situation that there is no religion how will human beings act? guess what all the jails will be full of law breakers! the cost of having no religions far outweighs the cost of educating the few clerics who induct the sense order in the society's minds!

It is kind of good question. But how many jails were there before Islam and Christianity came to what we call Tanzania today? Most east Asian countries are largely ethiest, do they have more prisons that we who imported these religions have? do they have more criminals than we do? Do these people who we call clerics really clerics, as in CLERICS?. I doubt that. You will see that very few of them are clerics, wengine ni waganga njaa. They know that majority of Tanzanians are not free from religion and also lack freedom of religion. They capitalise in this. That is why we even have this myth.