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Tanzania is proving to be a liability in EA integration

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Mkenya, Nov 30, 2008.

  1. M

    Mkenya Member

    Nov 30, 2008
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    By GITAU WARIGIPosted Saturday, November 29 2008 at 15:12

    It is time members of the East African Community called Tanzania’s bluff. Our southern neighbour has become a veritable impediment to integration and progress in the region.

    Everytime a useful proposal is put forward, it throws a spanner in the works. Kenya, Uganda and the two candidate-members of the Community, Rwanda and Burundi, should simply shrug Tanzania off and forge ahead.

    The latest Tanzanian objection is the proposal to allow the use of identity cards when crossing borders instead of the requirement for passports, which relatively few ordinary East Africans have anyway.

    The effect of the Tanzanian veto is to limit the movement of people about, who in most cases are traders going back and forth. It is difficult to see the logic of Dar es Salaam’s objection.

    At this rate, the dream of federation by 2013 will remain dead as long as Tanzania is allowed to dictate terms.

    Tanzania has for many years been consumed by a large deceit of thinking it is more important than it actually is.

    Basically, it still lives in a time warp where it is forever harping on its old credentials of being a linchpin of the liberation struggles of southern Africa.

    WITHOUT DOUBT THIS WAS A historically important role. But the world of today is being shaped not by re-living the progressive glories of the 60s but by learning to adapt to fast-changing economic trends of today.

    The latter’s prickly sense of wanting to be alone is sadly misguided. Regional prosperity depends on the exchange of skills that free movement of peoples and investment across borders allows.

    It is myopic to think Kenyans who venture into Tanzania are only going to take away Tanzanian jobs and opportunities. They are bringing skills, money and enterprise which they cross-pollinate in Tanzania.

    It is also wrong to fear that Kenya’s more developed economy is a threat to Tanzania’s and thus should be kept at bay.

    That argument flies in the face of all known precedents. Mexico knows the immense benefits it reaps from the North America Free Trade Association (NAFTA) even though its economy can nowhere be compared with the United States’ or Canada’s.

    Likewise countries like Slovakia or Croatia would not have been clamouring to join the European Union to be in the company of more advanced members like France and Germany.

    But the cost-benefit ratio in such situations favours the poorer members.

    Of the leaders of the East Africa Community, President Yoweri Museveni is by far the most far-sighted on this question of integration, He is surely right in urging those countries for the idea to go ahead on their own and cast off the laggards.

    One country cannot and should not be allowed to hold the process of integration hostage. Another leader who is emerging as a real visionary is Rwanda’s President, Mr Paul Kagame.

    He has already okayed the abolition of work permits for Kenyan professionals going to work there. Kenya too, has agreed on a similar waiver for Rwandan job-seekers.

    Kenyans who have been in Tanzania know the great difficulties of getting a local work permit.

    Working without one in that country is a highly perilous game, as the infamous deportations of Kenyans from there that were carried with utmost malice routinely attest.

    Tanzania greatly likes to be recognised for her ‘internationalist’ policies, with her leaders spending more time strutting the world than they do in their own country, though the facts show they are quite parochial.

    There is probably less of an economic rationale for this fling than there is a political one. Nothing gladdens Tanzania’s heart than to be seen to be close to South Africa.

    But things have surely changed since the days of the liberation struggle. Other than a broadly progressive political outlook, the two countries have very little in common.

  2. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    Tanzania does not want integration, it has more to lose than gain.The politicians do not have a strategic plan for Tanzania's interests and are caught between optimistic rhetoric and practical regional strategy.
  3. Bongolander

    Bongolander JF-Expert Member

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    Pundit you are right. But we have to admit that we have not been able to manage ourselves. Wanasiasa wetu mpaka sasa hawana vision yoyote kuhusu uchumi wetu na kutumia opportunities za intergration. Personally naona itakuwa ni ujing sana kupiga hatua zaidi kwenye hii integration kwa sababu we have more to lose than to gain. Hata leo ukitoka nyumbani na uende supermarket. dukani au gengeni, angalia bidhaa zinazouzwa. Utakuwa nyingi ni za kutoka nje na mostly ni kutoka Kenya. Lakini ukivuka mpaka ingia Kenya huwezi kukuta kitu kutoka Tanzania. Tukifungua uchumi zaidi basi tutajikuta ndio tumeuawa kabisa. I think we have a right to be a liability, we have to clean our house first na kujiweka kwenye nafasi ya kuwa at least sawa na wenzetu na sio wasindikizaji.
  4. K

    Koba JF-Expert Member

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    ....ngoja watutose tuu labda tutajifunza kitu,hivi tunapata faida gani ya kukataa simple ID to cross borders?..watanzania wangapi wana passport? mawazo ya zamani kweli kweli!
  5. S

    Scorpion Member

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    It looks OK for me to use any excuse for now hata kama ni kisingizio cha kijinga rather than tuingie kichwa kichwa huku tukijua wazi we will loose big time. Wenzetu wanakasirika sana kama unavyoona hapo juu, when common labor market and Land issues are delayed, why?

    Lazima tujiandae kwanza. Bahati mbaya, kama anavyosema Bongolander, hakuna vision wala nini. kazi kweli kweli!!
  6. Z

    ZeMarcopolo JF-Expert Member

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    The misleading part of this article is when it suggests that Tanzania doesn't want integration or co-operation with other EA countries. The truth is Tanzania doesn't agree with the terms of co-operation as they are in the existing portfolio. The writer seems to be trying to outrage Tanzanian nationals rather than discussing the matter.
  7. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    Safi sana...mawazo yaliokwenda shule.
  8. Z

    ZeMarcopolo JF-Expert Member

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    The misleading part of this article is when it suggets that Tanzania doesnt want intergratiion or co-operation with other EA countries. The truth is Tanzania doesnt agree with the terms of co-operation as they are in the existing portifolio and the speed of its implementation. The writer seems to be trying to outrage Tanzanian nationalists rather than discussing the matter.
  9. B

    Baba Lao Member

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    Hao wakenya wasitake kujifanya viranja wa East Africa.Ni afadhali kutojiingiza kwenye huo Muungano kuliko kuwaonea huruma hao majirani wenye uchu na nchi yetu.Kwani wameshaona kitu hapo na sasa wana convice tu mambo ya I dentity card.Tanzania tuangalie sana tusije tuka REGRET baadae kwa muungano huo.Maana watagain more from us and TZ we will gain nothing upon this easly crossing borders
  10. M

    MLEKWA Senior Member

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    I gree kuwa Tanzania imekua kikwazo kwa kuunganisha Jumuiya ya Afrika Mashariki. Why?

    Bado Zanzibar is requesting it status in East African Community, recently Zanzibar introduced Identity card for Zanzibari means soon Mainlanders will need ID to visit Zanzibar as well Kenyan , Ugandan and Wahutu na Banyamulenge.

    Second Tanzania it self is not open enough to wananchi about the benefit of EAC

    Third Tanzania with out solving Zanzibar (union problem )will not get any where in East African community.

    Forth CCM it doesnt include all wadau in clude allpolitical parties and civil society on making umazi juu ya EAC.

    Fifth corruption in the ruling party( CCM) is a huge problem for the delvelopment of Tanzania is un controlobale any more.

    Sixth many Tanzanian worried about Brother Museveni ambition he want to get his dream job first East African President for life never retire no way ?

    Last Tanzanian worried alot about peace we saw Kenya Election , instability in great lakes in general even refrendum will defeat quick union.
  11. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    Wakuu wa JF,

    The article written above has a lot of innuendos in trying to make it seem
    that wa-Tz nd'o wanaleta mushkil katika huu muungano. To say the truth
    that is the least of the worries that Tanzania has.Let me start by rubbishing
    a few points in this article.

    Tanzania is a sovereign state that has the right to monitor the movement of people within their borders.Why should they allow Kenyans to come in their country by having only National ID cards?It is a known fact kua they can be acquired by almost anybody.Ask yourself how come thousands of Somali refugees gave become holders of this document.

    The writer of the article makes himself look so ignorant when he claims he cant see the logic in this.Don't politicize something that is very obvious aisee.

    This is another fallacy which to the contrary, speaks of the writers country of origin. The tone of the article shows a condescending attitude by the writer in trying to dictate who thinks what of another.Please do not mistake national pride for arrogance. Tanzanians take pride in how their country has shaped the liberation struggle and how far they have come.Contrast that to the violence experienced in Kenya after the stolen election by Kibaki....I don't think there is anything to be proud of there.

    If Tanzania is spoken by such negative tones by you, then why the heck are you guys so jittery in trying to export your skills and dynamism to Tanzania????. It's matters like this that make Tanzania be very cautious by entering into this EAC thing.Waswahili husema mwenye pupa hadiriki kula tamu.

    Wow!!!!...trying to compare East Africa's economy to that of North America is like trying to compare apples to oranges.For your information Americans are tired of Mexicans coming into their country and the subsequent loss of jobs.Add the fact that some industries are relocating to Mexico for cheap labor and that is not a good sign for the American worker.Kwa hivyo this is a misguided example and you can calmly flush it.

    It is only fair for the sake of intelligence not to mention Museveni as being far sighted yet we know he is one of the most brutal dictators in the region. We cannot play bedmates with this guy nor Kagame...your blue eyed boy who wields a big gun in the Great Lakes region conflict. Meanwhile why did Kibaki sign on the waiver of the work permit thing?Is it because he as an individual and his tribal community stand to benefit?Was the input of the common mwananchi asked for?Are Kenyan jobs protected in this drama of things especially teachers and workers at the port of Mombasa? This movie was played out when Kenyatta was president and there were many teachers from Uganda and Rwanda teaching in schools in Western Kenya.The port of Mombasa was also flooded with Rwandese truck drivers and various casual workers at the expense of the locals.Jiulize tena....m'natka awamu ya pili?

    In regards to this stupid comment, Tanzania will chose her partners as she wishes and Kenya will not dictate otherwise.Hata iweje!
  12. Pundit

    Pundit JF-Expert Member

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    I was thinking of how best to write an apt rebuttal, after reading your post,I don't think that will be necessary as you have covered my points very well, perhaps even better than I would have.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2008
  13. Ab-Titchaz

    Ab-Titchaz Content Manager Staff Member

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    Welcome bro.

    Hii article mimi imeniuma kweli maana naona wazi aliyeiandika anatufata ushari tu
    na watu.Kila mtu anamsimamo wake and thats how its going to be.Respect is
    earned and not demanded.Thats just how I felt.

  14. Augustine Moshi

    Augustine Moshi JF-Expert Member

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    Huu msemo kwamba tujitayarishe kwanza una ukweli? Kwani kuna maandalizi gani yanafanyika?

    I can see why we wouldn’t approve the use of national identity cards to cross borders. We don’t have national Id cards. And we are not willing to let those who have produced them (rather than talk only about them as we have done) enjoy the benefits.

    Ni kazi gani tunaogopa Wakenya watachukua kwetu? Government is about the only employer we have. There are a couple of other small time employers, but these tend to confine recruitment to family members. Besides, what would be so bad if we were to suddenly find ourselves with a large pool of teachers (English speaking ones too) to fill our schools with?

    You cannot lose by joining forces with those who are stronger. It is in our national interests to hasten the creation of fully integrated East African Community.
  15. Bongolander

    Bongolander JF-Expert Member

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    Tujitayarishe kwa maana kuwa nasi tuweze kutumia soko la members kama wao wanavyotumia la kwetu(angalia Kenya wanavyouza bidhaa kwenye soko la TZ) vuka mpaka kaangalie Kenya uone ilivyo kama utakuta bidhaa ya Tanzania. Angalia ni watanzania wangapi wanafanya kazi kenya na ni wakenya wangapi wanafanya kazi Tanzania uniambie kama kweli tuko tayari kwa EAC. Tutakuwa wasindikizaji wa Kenya. Tumeharibu sana nchi yetu kiasi cha kwamba hakuna a singe industrial produce tunaweza kuexport kwa members. Wenzetu wana kila kitu tunachouza na wao wana vitu vingi ambavyo hatuna, hii EAC kwa sasa ni siasa tu, haitufai watanzania.
  16. N

    Njimba Nsalilwe JF-Expert Member

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    Ab -Titchaz,

    It seems the authour (Gitau Waridi) does not know the reality of his country Kenya. I just want to remind him of some realities of Kenya. In addtion, If I am not mistaken Gitau lives in Nairobi has never travelled around Kenya.

    I was in Kenya some years back and here are some of realities of Kenya those Gitau needs to know.

    The author should know that Kenya is fragile country and anything there can spark violence and killings.That is why we in Tanzania fear them. We all witnessed what happened after last year's election and up to now Kenya is still healing its post-election wounds. Thanks to Obama's victory at least has overshadowed the pain of post-election. But Gitau should bear in mind that there are some innocent Kenyans are still refugees in their own country.

    Secondly, I would like to remind Gitau about the following story concerning Kenyan famine which happened early 2006.

    Kenyan Food Crisis Sparks Upsurge in Communal Violence
    6 February 2006

    The escalating food crisis in Kenya is threatening to plunge the affected region into a level of conflict that it hasn't been seen for almost a decade, Oxfam International warns.

    The drought and resulting food crisis in Kenya are so severe that nomadic cattle herders are fighting over resources. The last time there was such large-scale communal violence was in 1997. The number of weapons in the area is making such encounters increasingly lethal as nomadic communities now have to travel hundreds of kilometers in search of pasture-often taking them into areas controlled by other communities. There is also growing conflict between farmers and cattle herders as livestock invade farms and deplete the remaining water supplies.

    "It's not just the food crisis that is claiming lives in Kenya," said Gezahegn Kebede, who heads Oxfam's programs in Kenya. "The knock-on impact of the crisis risks sparking conflict on a scale that Kenya hasn't seen for almost a decade. Unless aid to the affected area is stepped up this month, March could see many more killed."

    A new assessment of the scale of the crisis is currently being compiled by a committee of aid agencies, the UN, and the Kenyan government. That assessment will be the basis for the scaled-up aid effort being launched this Wednesday.

    The food crisis is exacerbating tensions in an area where a lack of long-term development aid has already led to tensions between communities over scarce resources. Oxfam is working with the Kenyan government to help formulate policies to address the underlying issues and ensure that an effective early-warning mechanism is in place.

    Conflict has already broken out in many areas:

    Pastures in Oropoi and Kainuk have been burnt, increasing tensions between the Turkana and Karimajong tribes. The Turkana believe that the fires were set in order to push them into Uganda in search of pasture, where they would then have been attacked for their remaining cattle.
    Forty people were killed earlier this month at Lokamariyang and Kokoro during fighting between the Turkana and tribes from neighboring Ethiopia over water and pasture.
    In Isiolo district, sheep and goat thefts have increased and a recent raid left nine people dead.
    In Garissa this week a conflict between two clans over a water source was narrowly averted by the district peace committee.
    "We now have a very small window in which to stop this crisis turning into a catastrophe," said Gezahegn Kebede. "The implications of failing to step up the aid effort now will not just be starvation; it could also bring large-scale conflict to the region. It's not too late to avert the worst of this, but it soon will be."

    The increased conflict, which has been sparked by the drought, is in turn making the food crisis worse. Many livestock herders are boxed in on all sides by hostile tribes. The exhausted pastureland cannot support their livestock, which, with no opportunity to roam freely, are now dying by the thousands.

    Oxfam is calling on the Kenyan government to step up long-term help to the region, particularly the development of infrastructure such as boreholes, which will help safeguard livelihoods and reduce conflict.

    Oxfam is supplying food and water to help more than 200,000 people affected by the food crisis in Turkana and Wajir.

    Source: Oxfam America: Kenyan Food Crisis Sparks Upsurge in Communal Violence

    Thirdly, we all know how Kenya suffers from land crisis which all the time sparks violence and killings. It seems to me that the author did not do any homework before writing his article.

    For example, I Quote:

    Escalating clashes over fertile land in Kenya's Mount Elgon region
    have killed 60 people and forced tens of thousands more from their
    homes since December, the Kenya Red Cross has said. Local members of
    parliament say the latest clashes broke out when people displaced
    from their ancestral land attacked communities now occupying their
    land. Police blamed the violence on criminal gangs.

    Source:KENYA: LAND CLASHES KILL 60, DISPLACE THOUSANDS « Sociolingo's Africa

    Tanzania is dirt poor, its economy a fraction of Kenya's. Further, it lacks the dynamism and skills to drive its economy forward at the pace of its neighbours

    The author claims that Kenya is rich country, here has made me laugh.
    Who is rich in Kenya? Indians, Kikuyus, politicians, or common wananchi?

    By the way which Kenya he compares to Tanzania? I presume compares his City Nairobi with the whole country Tanzania, or let me put this way, he compares the Kibera slum (in Nairobi) area with the whole country Tanzania? Here the author needs to be specific.

    The author should know that despite Tanzania's small economy as he claims, but is widely distributed compared to Kenya's big economy which is concentrated in some big cities only. What I mean here is that, at least one can drive from Dar to Mtwara, Dar to Mwanza, Dar to Mbeya etc, few examples to mention. However, this is not the same case if one wants to drive from Nairobi to Ramu, Nairobi to Moyalle (Marsabit), Nairobi to Malindi, etc.

    I conclude by saying that, what the author has written reflects his own opinions and not of Kenyans living at Kibera slum - those dying because of hunger - those killing themselves because of land. In addition, his country of comparison is Nairobi and not Kenya as a whole country. Otherwise, the author should have considered the size of area Kenyan government takes care of as a whole country, compared to that of Tanzania government.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2008
  17. N

    Njimba Nsalilwe JF-Expert Member

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    Here I choose to diasgree with you,

    For me as mentioned by EA Minister, the biggest problems of Tanzania are movement by using ID and land ownership.

    Do you know that it is not easy for Kenyan to travel from Nairobi to Ethiopian and Somali borders? Those part of kenya the insecurity is high and if you want to go there you should have drums of water to bribe rebels before they can let you pass. You people, you are being deceived by Kenya represented by Nairobi, Mombasa, Nakuru and Njiru, to be specific central Kenya and Western and bite of South because of tourism. Kenyan have abondoned Lokichoki, Lokitang, Ramu, Loboi, Lodwar etc. Do you know these towns? They do exists and find out what is going there. And they represent big part of Kenya.

    They say charity begins at home, For Kenyan, the free movement should start in their own country. They should first start moving freely to their northern, Eastern etc regions, before considering coming to sourthen part of Tanzania.

    Be advised that those who are behind this EA free movement are those who grubbed Kenyan land. They want to extend to Tanzania.
  18. BAK

    BAK JF-Expert Member

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    Wanataka ardhi yetu tu sasa wanaona Tanzania imekataa wageni toka nchi jirani kumiliki ardhi Tanzania basi wanataka kuonyesha kwamba Tanzania haitaki ushirikiano wa aina yoyote. Bado kuna maeneo chungu nzima ambayo Tanzania iko tayari kushirikiana. Walikuwa mstari wa mbele kuivunja jumuiya ya Afrika Mashariki 1977 sasa wanataka kuingilia mlango wa nyuma ili waivamie ardhi yetu!!
  19. o

    okon JF-Expert Member

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    Wakenya hawana lolote wasitubabaishe hapa, watakacholeta hapa kwetu kama wakija ni ukabila uliokithiri tu, isitoshe hao wachache wanofanya kazi nchini mwetu waajiri wanawapa vichwa sana, hata kama wanaelimu sawa nasisi wanalipwa mishahara mikubwa kuliko sisi na wanapewa vyeo bila sababu. Anayebisha afanye uchunguzi kampuni zote ambazo zina mchanganyiko wa wakenya na watanzania akianzia na GIMCO AFRICA (ni real property management company ipo Dar)
    Hata Tz kuna ukabila lakini sio ule wa Kenya, kule ili upate nafasi ya kusoma nje (kwa nafasi ambazo ruhusa ya aina moja au nyingine inahitajika) lazima uwe Mkikuyu au Mjaluo, ili upate kazi serikalini hivyo hivyo, kila kitu ukabila tuuuuuuuuu! Halafu mara zote wanajisikia sana na wana-tendency ya kuwadharau Watanzania. Nadhani makala iliyoanzisha mjadala huu inajieleza. Tusitegemee eti Mkenya atakuja kuwekeza Tz halafu eti atamwajiri Mtanzania, hiyo ni ndoto. Mimi nasoma nao (huku Ulaya) na darasani wapo watano, hawapatani kwa sababu ni makabila tofauti wanaishia kujipachika kwetu watanzania ili wapate kampani kwa sababu wanaona sisi tunapendana na tunaishi kama ndugu. Halafu eti wanashangaa tunawezaje kuishi hivyo.
    Anyway, ukiachalia mbali hayo yooooote ninachotaka kusema ni kuwa hakuna tunachohitaji kutoka kwao. Hatuhitaji ujuzi wao wala hatuhitaji kufanya biashara nao, kwanini tujiunge nao? Bora hata tuanzishe ka-federation ketu tukaite East Coast Team (kama jina east african federation lina copyright ya Wakenya) amini nawaambia tutapata washirika wakumwaga. Hizi zote burundi, rwanda, zambia, uganda, etc zitajiunga. Kama hawanunui bidhaa za tanzania, hawaajiri wa tanzania, unadhani neno federation tu litabadilisha msimamo wao, thubutu.
    Kama mtu angetaka wazo langu kama TZ ijiunge na wakenya au isijiunge, jibu ni NO KUBWA!!!!!! HATUNA CHA KUPOTEZA KWA KUTOUNGANA NAO wala HATUNA CHAKU- GAIN TUKIWA NAO, full stop.
    Wanachotaka kujiungia TZ ni kuja kuchuma tu na kuondoka zao. Kwao wameporana vimeisha. Ndio maana vitu vingi tu vya Tanzania huku ulaya wamevitangaza vipo kenya, mfano Mlima kilimanjaro, kuna vijamaa unakikuta live kabisa kinaongea na mtu huku kinamwambia mlima upo kenya ila kivuli kipo tanzania? can u imagine?
    Hata nyimbo za wasanii wetu wanazitangaza ni za wakenya. Unamkuta DJ disko anatangaza kwamba sasa hivi anaenda kucheza kibao kizuri sana cha msanii kutoka kenya halafu anapiga wimbo wa AY!!!!!!!

    Vitu vingine wanavyoringia hata havina maana, eti hela yao iko juu! iko juu my foot!!! China ina uchumi unaotisha duniani lakini hela yao hailingani na pound, nini pound bwana hata dola tu!

    Mtu anayesema eti Tanzania wavivu ndio maana wakenya wanatuzidi kufanya kazi ni mvivu yeye, kila siku watu wanafanya makazi yasiyoisha mpaka usiku halafu anasema wavivu, ebo!

    Ili tujiunge nao labda
    1. Waache tabia ya kudharau watanzania ili tuwe na uhakika kuwa hakutakuwa na ubaguzi kwenye mambo mbalimbali (kama wanatuzidi kitu ni kiingereza tu, lugha ambayo wala hata sio yao). Tulionao madarasani huku tunawapiga bao tu kama issue ni marks, inamaana kiingereza hakiwasaidii.

    2. Watanzania wachache wanaodhani wakenya ni bora waondoe mawazo hayo, kwa sababu hawana ubora wowote ndio maana wanataka sana kuungana na Watz, na kwao wana matatizo ya kufa mtu. The worst slum in the world ipo Nairobi inaitwa Kibera.

    3. (Sharti gumu kuliko yote) Waache ukabila, waunde udugu kati ya makabila yao kwanza. Labda wajiunge/waichukue Tarime tu ndo waunde federation.

    4. Suala la rais wetu kusafiri ni letu kinchowauma ni viongozi wetu kutokwenda kutembea kenya mara kwa mara, hata kama viongozi wetu ni wapuuzi lakini wana akili walau ya kujua kuwa kenya hakuna chaku-gain, sasa wakafanye nini kule?

    Nakuabaliana na wote waliosema Tz inahitaji muda kabla haijajiunga na tribalists wale. Mpaka tuwe wabinafsi kama wao, wakabila kama wao, wenye roho mbaya kama wao, wabaguzi kama wao, na wenye dharau kama wao.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2008
  20. Kichuguu

    Kichuguu Platinum Member

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    You forget that Tanzania started these integration efforts long before you were there, that is why Tanzania is a union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar republics. Experiences and lessons of the past must be taken very seriously in shaping our future. Whoever was alive in 1977 knows why a cautious path is needed in this course.