Nyerere: Salaam zenu mnaomkejeli!

Mr.Right said:

Unashindwa kuelewa kwa sababu umeamua kufanya hivyo ili ubadilishe hoja ya msingi; ambayo wewe na wenzako Pro-Nyerere mnaikimbia- nayo ni Efficiency.

Ujamaa haukuwa na effeciency ndiyo maana West walikataa kununua mazao. Lakini mnashindwa kuelewa vitu vya msingi vilivyosababisha hayo mazao kutaka kununuliwa kwa bei rahisi.
As Wajamaa mtaendelea kulaumu, na kusema wengine hawajui, lakini hiyo tactic ya Wajamaa haikuanza leo. hata Mzee Nyerere alikuwa nayo.

By the way unashindwa kuelewa kwa sababu unajump kwenye hoja nyengine bila ya kuanzia kwenye post za mwanzo.

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West walikataa kunua mazao kwa sababu ujamaa haukuwa na efficiency? oh my goodness! Miaka ipi hiyo walikataa kununua mazao? do you think west had a choice kukataa kununua mazao? unaishi dunia yenye historia ipi? vita vya kwanza na vya pili vya dunia vilitokana na wao kugombania sources za such raw materials, then unadiriki kugeuza historia? West hawakukataa kununua mazao and they will never dare, watachofanya ni kuhakikisha wanayanunua kwa bei rahisi kupitia devaluation ya kulazimisha nchi maskini and other measures;

Vitu vilivyosababisha mazao yanunuliwe kwa bei rahisi ni Ujamaa kutokuwa na efficiency??? kilimo cha mkoloni na cha ujamaa mbona havikuwa na tofauti in terms of efficiency? at least for once, elewa hoja ya Mkandara juu ya hilo na kuweka suala la ushabiki pembeni, ile ndiyo knowledge ambayo utapewa na mtu yeyote mwelewa ambae hata sasa hivi ukienda mwamsha usingizini hata bila ya kumwambia juu ya mjadala huu JF, atakueleza;

Sijarukia hoja, nimekuwa naifuatilia sana tu, lakini nimeona hapa tuwekane sawa; your entire argument on that is fallacy;

Mgalanjuka said:

Huyu nimempa mfano wa Ivory Coast na zao la cocoa na kwamba Africa inaproduce 69% ya cocoa yote duniani wala hata haelewi... ameng'ang'ania "advanced commercial agriculture with higher technology". Kijana advanced tech ina mipaka yake ama sivyo gharama zinakuwa kubwa kuliko output. Kaanzishe kilimo cha migomba Alaska na "advanced commercial agriculture with higher technology" uone moto wake. Sheria za uchumi ni kwamba kila nchi itafaidka kwa ku-specialize katika bidhaa ambayo ina comparative advantage, na iuze bidhaa hizo kwa nchi nyingine. Huelewi nini??

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His understanding of the global capitalist system from a historical point of view is completely skewed; tunaelewa wapo kazini kumfuta mwalimu kwenye historia abakie kama Kinjeketile, lakini wangekua angalau wanajiandaa, kwani wanayoyasema hapa, hata walengwa wao huko shule za sekondari watawaambia "kaka, lakini hilo sio tunachofundishwa katika historia", na kufanya vijana wale wa sekondari wahisi kwamba kaka zao hawa aidha walikuwa watoro wa somo la historia, au walisomea nje ya Tanzania, au walisoma Tanzania, lakini hawakufikia kiwango cha elimu ya sekondari;

Mchambuzi said:

West walikataa kunua mazao kwa sababu ujamaa haukuwa na efficiency? oh my goodness! Miaka ipi hiyo walikataa kununua mazao? do you think west had a choice kukataa kununua mazao? unaishi dunia yenye historia ipi? vita vya kwanza na vya pili vya dunia vilitokana na wao kugombania sources za such raw materials, then unadiriki kugeuza historia? West hawakukataa kununua mazao and they will never dare, watachofanya ni kuhakikisha wanayanunua kwa bei rahisi kupitia devaluation ya kulazimisha nchi maskini and other measures;

Vitu vilivyosababisha mazao yanunuliwe kwa bei rahisi ni Ujamaa kutokuwa na efficiency??? kilimo cha mkoloni na cha ujamaa mbona havikuwa na tofauti in terms of efficiency? at least for once, elewa hoja ya Mkandara juu ya hilo na kuweka suala la ushabiki pembeni, ile ndiyo knowledge ambayo utapewa na mtu yeyote mwelewa ambae hata sasa hivi ukienda mwamsha usingizini hata bila ya kumwambia juu ya mjadala huu JF, atakueleza;

Sijarukia hoja, nimekuwa naifuatilia sana tu, lakini nimeona hapa tuwekane sawa; your entire argument on that is fallacy;

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Nikikuambia mimi unabisha. Sasa ebu soma kidogo upate ushahidi zaidi.

State control of the economy did not exactly appear to guarantee a more effective restructuring of the national
economy towards the envisaged self-reliant model. There were contradictions, especially within the industrial sector as demonstrated in Dianne Bolton's (1985: 154) incisive study of the nationalization of the sisal industry in Tanzania. Bolton concludes that "the concept of nationalization as illustrated by the sisal industry played a dubious role in the transition program to socialism and self reliance". This was because the nationalized sisal industry did not have the capacity to dispose effectively and efficiently of
"the means of production and its social product". Structural changes like over-bureaucratization and centralization effected by nationalization created opportunities for increased corruption, inefficiency and resource dissipation (Bolton, 1985: 156). Indeed by 1975, it was already clear to policy makers that a development policy that was primarily centered on nationalization could neither solve the problems of underdevelopment nor offer expedient paths to economic self-reliance. In fact, as some scholars have
postulated, what the policy of nationalization so effectively achieved was to give rise to "state bureaucratic capitalism" - the use of state capital by a managerial elite in a manner which entirely conforms to the ethos.

Mr.Right said:

Unashindwa kuelewa hata nchi za West in kina nani? wewe unasema Finland!! Watu wanapozungumzia nchi za West wana maanisha nchi zilizopo ktk group of industrialized nations hiyo Finland haipo.

And then unataka kuweka ktk same level communism na Ujamaa!! kweli aibu. Sikulaumu, elimu ya Nyerere hiyo.

Halafu unashindwa kuelewa tofauti kati ya Comperative advantage na competitive advantage.

Ngoja nikupe definition yake maana ktk elimu uliyopata ya Ujamaa hamna kitu kinachoitwa comparative advantage.

Competitive advantange- Competitive advantage theory suggests that states and businesses should pursue policies that create high-quality goods to sell at high prices in the market.

Comparative advantage-the law of comparative advantage says that two countries (or other kinds of parties, such as individuals or firms thereas) will both gain from trade if, in the absence of trade, they have different relative costs for producing the same goods.

Hukuwahi kuvisoma hivi vitu kwa sababu ulisoma ktk Ujamaa. Lol!!

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You must be kiddin.. right?? Nimeanza kutilia mashaka uelewa wako. Usiwe mvivu fungua website ya IMF au google Finland uone iko kwenye group gani katika nchi zilizoendelea. Kwa taarifa yako umepotoka kabisa kama hujui Finland ni one of the most industrialized country.

Mr.Right said:

Nikikuambia mimi unabisha. Sasa ebu soma kidogo upate ushahidi zaidi.

State control of the economy did not exactly appear to guarantee a more effective restructuring of the national
economy towards the envisaged self-reliant model. There were contradictions, especially within the industrial sector as demonstrated in Dianne Bolton's (1985: 154) incisive study of the nationalization of the sisal industry in Tanzania. Bolton concludes that "the concept of nationalization as illustrated by the sisal industry played a dubious role in the transition program to socialism and self reliance". This was because the nationalized sisal industry did not have the capacity to dispose effectively and efficiently of
"the means of production and its social product". Structural changes like over-bureaucratization and centralization effected by nationalization created opportunities for increased corruption, inefficiency and resource dissipation (Bolton, 1985: 156). Indeed by 1975, it was already clear to policy makers that a development policy that was primarily centered on nationalization could neither solve the problems of underdevelopment nor offer expedient paths to economic self-reliance. In fact, as some scholars have
postulated, what the policy of nationalization so effectively achieved was to give rise to "state bureaucratic capitalism" - the use of state capital by a managerial elite in a manner which entirely conforms to the ethos.

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Hilo linaeleweka na sina tatizo nalo, na ni tofauti kabisa na unachosema; Ebu nieleze, hizo notes hapo juu zinasindikiza vipi hoja yako unayomjibu mkandara kwamba West walikataa kununua mazao yetu kwa sababu Kilimo under Ujamaa was not efficient?? wakati ukweli ni kwamba West hawajawahi kukataa nunua mazao yetu, vita vya kwanza na pili vya dunia ilikuwa ni kugombania mazao yetu; alichokueleza Mkandara ni mbinu zao za kununua mazao yetu kwa bei ya chee na pia kukueleza how the commodity mkt doesnt not work in our favour; haina mahusiano kabisa na unayoyaweka hapo juu; it looks like,ili kujibu hoja, huwa unakimbia sehemu na kusoma vitu bila kuvipanga; matokeo yake, hoja yako nzima inakwa Flawed;

Mgalanjuka said:

Huyu nimempa mfano wa Ivory Coast na zao la cocoa na kwamba Africa inaproduce 69% ya cocoa yote duniani wala hata haelewi... ameng'ang'ania "advanced commercial agriculture with higher technology". Kijana advanced tech ina mipaka yake ama sivyo gharama zinakuwa kubwa kuliko output. Kaanzishe kilimo cha migomba Alaska na "advanced commercial agriculture with higher technology" uone moto wake. Sheria za uchumi ni kwamba kila nchi itafaidka kwa ku-specialize katika bidhaa ambayo ina comparative advantage, na iuze bidhaa hizo kwa nchi nyingine. Huelewi nini??

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Unamiss point kabisa. Sipo kabisa kwenye comparative advantage. By the way, hatuzungumzii Ivory Coast hapa, tupo na TZ na Ujamaa wa Nyerere.

Mbona mnachanganya mambo? au ndiyo kwanza umeijua hiyo Comparative advantage? Focus on the topic.

Mchambuzi said:

Hilo linaeleweka na sina tatizo nalo, na ni tofauti kabisa na unachosema; Ebu nieleze, hizo notes hapo juu zinasindikiza vipi hoja yako unayomjibu mkandara kwamba West walikataa kununua mazao yetu kwa sababu Kilimo under Ujamaa wa not efficient??

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Nina information kibao ambazo zinanisadia kumsoma vizuri Mzee Nyerere. By the way sipo ktk ubishi wa kizamani, umeniuliza Ujamaa umeshindwa kivipi na inefficiency zake zipo ktk hiyo article. Nikukuambia mimi mnabisha sasa soma mwenyewe. Njoo na hoja nyengine. Ninazo data kibao.

Mr.Right said:

Nina information kibao ambazo zinanisadia kumsoma vizuri Mzee Nyerere. By the way sipo ktk ubishi wa kizamani, umeniuliza Ujamaa umeshindwa kivipi na inefficiency zake zipo ktk hiyo article. Nikukuambia mimi mnabisha sasa soma mwenyewe. Njoo na hoja nyengine. Ninazo data kibao.

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Je unakubali kwamba sio sahihi kusemwa WEST walikataa kununua mazao yetu kwa sababu kilimo cha Ujamaa hakikuwa efficient?
hicho ulichokiweka hapo juu hakisemi hayo, kinaelezea weakness zilizokuwa inherent wakati wa ujamaa ambazo zipo wazi, lakini hilo la efficiency na Ujamaa in terms of kilimo, hivyo kupelekea west kukataa kununua mazao yetu? hiyo ni ya mwaka;

Mr.Right said:

Unamiss point kabisa. Sipo kabisa kwenye comparative advantage. By the way, hatuzungumzii Ivory Coast hapa, tupo na TZ na Ujamaa wa Nyerere.

Mbona mnachanganya mambo? au ndiyo kwanza umeijua hiyo Comparative advantage? Focus on the topic.

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Ungekuwa ni mwelewa wa hiyo comparative advantage, hakika ungeitumia vizuri sana kuelewa tatizo la kilimo, sio chini ya ujamaa tu, hata chini ya soko huria lipo wapi hata leo hii; as of now, kinachotokea ni hao wadhamini wenu kuwatupia theories na frameworks mbalimbali za kutumia kumchambua Nyerere na Ujamaa;

Africa ina comparative advantage na kilimo, regardless nchi inafuata mfumo gani wa uchumi; lakini this theory ina mapungufu mengi sana kuelezea hali halisi; wewe unaendelea kutuchanganya hapa na kuiweka pamoja na competitive advantage wakati hiyo uwepo wake ni to correct shortcomings za comparative advantage; and still competitive advantage haipo practical katika uchumi wetu wa kilimo, hata kwa miaka ya sasa, application yake ni ya kulazimisha tu; otherwise tatizo la uchumi wa afrika wa kilimo ni unfair integration of rural economy to the global capitalist system, whether unafuata ujamaa, soko huria, whether nyerere existed or never lived; anyways, mazoezi unayofanya ni mazuri, lakini hayana maana katika mjadala mzima wa ujamaa na mwalimu;

Mgalanjuka said:

You must be kiddin.. right?? Nimeanza kutilia mashaka uelewa wako. Usiwe mvivu fungua website ya IMF au google Finland uone iko kwenye group gani katika nchi zilizoendelea. Kwa taarifa yako umepotoka kabisa kama hujui Finland ni one of the most industrialized country.

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Hilo ndiyo matatizo ya kusoma kwa kucopy. Hujui hata power za West ni kina nani. Watu wanapozungumzia West wanazungumzia power za West. Soma kwa manufaa yako ujue power za West ni kina nani.

Mr.Right said:

Unashindwa kuelewa hata nchi za West in kina nani? wewe unasema Finland!! Watu wanapozungumzia nchi za West wana maanisha nchi zilizopo ktk group of industrialized nations hiyo Finland haipo.

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Hapo umejiabisha sana..

Mr.Right said:

And then unataka kuweka ktk same level communism na Ujamaa!! kweli aibu. Sikulaumu, elimu ya Nyerere hiyo.

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Well, ukirudia post yangu nimekwambia communism ni extreme level ya socialism nikiwa na maana ni level nyingine hivyo napata wasiwasi kama unaelewa vizuri unaposoma...

Mr.Right said:

Halafu unashindwa kuelewa tofauti kati ya Comperative advantage na competitive advantage.

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Hii wewe ndio umeshindwa kuelewa tofauti (we vipi? mbona unasahau kama panya) na kuishia kujichanganya kwamba ujamaa usingeweza ku-face competition, huna logic..

Mr.Right said:

Ngoja nikupe definition yake maana ktk elimu uliyopata ya Ujamaa hamna kitu kinachoitwa comparative advantage.

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Huwezi kunipa definition kutoka kwenye "wikipedia" wakati unashindwa hata kujua Finland ni industrialized country... Mimi siyo level yako, ungejisomea mwenyewe kwanza kabla ya kuanza kujichanganya

Mr.Right said:

Competitive advantange- Competitive advantage theory suggests that states and businesses should pursue policies that create high-quality goods to sell at high prices in the market.

Comparative advantage-the law of comparative advantage says that two countries (or other kinds of parties, such as individuals or firms thereas) will both gain from trade if, in the absence of trade, they have different relative costs for producing the same goods

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Wow at least now you can google something, copy and paste here next time jielimishe kabla ya kufyatuka unajua watu wanaweza kurudia post zako na kuona jinsi unavyojichanganya

Mr.Right said:

Hukuwahi kuvisoma hivi vitu kwa sababu ulisoma ktk Ujamaa. Lol!!

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Well,ningefurahi kusoma wakati wa ujamaa ila bahati mbaya sana wewe umevisoma sasa hivi wikipedia pole sana..

Mchambuzi said:

Je unakubali kwamba sio sahihi kusemwa WEST walikataa kununua mazao yetu kwa sababu kilimo cha Ujamaa hakikuwa efficient?
hicho ulichokiweka hapo juu hakisemi hayo, kinaelezea weakness zilizokuwa inherent wakati wa ujamaa ambazo zipo wazi, lakini hilo la efficiency na Ujamaa in terms of kilimo, hivyo kupelekea west kukataa kununua mazao yetu? hiyo ni ya mwaka;

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Hapo ndipo unashindwa kuelewa point kamili kabisa. Mteja anapotaka kununua bidhaa zako kwa bei rahisi zaidi ya vile ulivyotengenza; basi lazima ujue kuna tatizo ambalo wewe kama mzalishaji unalikosea. Na moja ya hilo la tatioz ni kutokuwa Efficiency.

Ndiyo maana nikasema, kama tungekuwa na Free Market basi tungeweza kuuza mazao yetu kwa kuwa ecfficiency zaidi, na bei ya kuuza pia ingekuwa ndogo sana; ambapo hata mnunuaji hawezi kulalamika.

kwanza tungejifunza chanzo cha symbolism kama alama za 'sieve and hammer' in socialism na kuja kujiuliza chanzo cha 'jembe na nyundo' ktk bendera ya CCM. Huyo nyerere was just a copy cat in all aspects its just that the nation and its people were still in the dark, but all that failed in other worlds that he tried to imitate reflected in our own land. Except that others had armies of educated people ready for the next challenge something we lucked and we still do.

Mr.Right said:

Watu wanapozungumzia nchi za West wana maanisha nchi zilizopo ktk group of industrialized nations hiyo Finland haipo.

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Mr.Right said:

Hilo ndiyo matatizo ya kusoma kwa kucopy. Hujui hata power za West ni kina nani. Watu wanapozungumzia West wanazungumzia power za West. Soma kwa manufaa yako ujue power za West ni kina nani.

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Kinyonga? You got to stand for what you say buddy... Unakuwa mtata

Mchambuzi said:

Ungekuwa ni mwelewa wa hiyo comparative advantage, hakika ungeitumia vizuri sana kuelewa tatizo la kilimo, sio chini ya ujamaa tu, hata chini ya soko huria lipo wapi hata leo hii; as of now, kinachotokea ni hao wadhamini wenu kuwatupia theories na frameworks mbalimbali za kutumia kumchambua Nyerere na Ujamaa;

Africa ina comparative advantage na kilimo, regardless nchi inafuata mfumo gani wa uchumi; lakini this theory ina mapungufu mengi sana kuelezea hali halisi; wewe unaendelea kutuchanganya hapa na kuiweka pamoja na competitive advantage wakati hiyo uwepo wake ni to correct shortcomings za comparative advantage; and still competitive advantage haipo practical katika uchumi wetu wa kilimo, hata kwa miaka ya sasa, application yake ni ya kulazimisha tu; otherwise tatizo la uchumi wa afrika wa kilimo ni unfair integration of rural economy to the global capitalist system, whether unafuata ujamaa, soko huria, whether nyerere existed or never lived; anyways, mazoezi unayofanya ni mazuri, lakini hayana maana katika mjadala mzima wa ujamaa na mwalimu;

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Usichanganye mambo

Unashindwa kuelewa, labada hii article ya ina information sawasawa na vile alivyosema pro-Nyerere mwenzako Mkandara. Ndiyo maana nikamjibu hiyo issue ya price.



By Fumbuka Ng'wanakilala
DAR ES SALAAM (Reuters) - Tanzania's arabica coffee prices fell at last week's auction, with just over half of the coffee on offer sold after growers rejected low bids from exporters, traders said on Tuesday.

Mr.Right said:

Hapo ndipo unashindwa kuelewa point kamili kabisa. Mteja anapotaka kununua bidhaa zako kwa bei rahisi zaidi ya vile ulivyotengenza; basi lazima ujue kuna tatizo ambalo wewe kama mzalishaji unalikosea. Na moja ya hilo la tatioz ni kutokuwa Efficiency.

Ndiyo maana nikasema, kama tungekuwa na Free Market basi tungeweza kuuza mazao yetu kwa kuwa ecfficiency zaidi, na bei ya kuuza pia ingekuwa ndogo sana; ambapo hata mnunuaji hawezi kulalamika.

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Unazidi kujichanganya - nimekuuliza kuhusu Kenya na Zimbabwe, haujajibu; hapa hatubishani juu ya umuhimu wa efficiency katika kilimo, tunaiangalia katika historical context ya Tanzania; wewe unatoa hoja based on text book efficiency, na unapokuta neno hilo likijadili mapungufu ya kilimo enzi za ujamaa, unakuja na hoja completely way out of context;

Efficiency ni ratio ya output to input; wakoloni waliacha what ratio? Nyerere alipochukua nchi, nini kilibadilika? tunaona katika takwimu jinsi gani1960s and 1970s especially during Ujamaa how productivity ya kilimo was high, na wewe unasema una data, so lazima umeona hilo; tuli experience a boom in exports kwa kipindi kirefu sana kwa sababu ya high productivity (efficiency) and favourable prices in the world mkt (za mazao ya kilimo); kwa kifupi, data shows picha ambayo ni completely different from hoja yako juu ya efficiency;

In the late 1970s, matatizo yakajitokeza, kwa mfano, bei za mazao zikashuka soko la dunia - mkandara kalieleza vizuri sana; pia zao kuu in terms of our export earnings (sisal), likapata a substitute ghafla ya synthetic fibre, na kupelekea bei ya sisal kuanguka vibaya sana; Oil shock ikaja, na sisi we were importing oil (as we still do now), tukajikuta kilimo hakizalishi vya kutosha kumfanya mwalimu aendelee kutoa huduma za afya, elimu, maji kama alivyoahidi wakati wa kupigania uhuru; kilimo kushuka pia ikapunguza mapato ya kuendeleza viwanda ambavyo vilihitaji malighafi; sasa suala la efficiency ndio likaanza kuwa na matatizo hapa; na haikuwa Tanzania tu, bali nchi zote zilizokuwa zinategemea kilimo; pamoja na hayo, WEST still wanted our coffee, tea, tobacco, pyrethrum etc, na wakapata njia ya kutubana kwani sasa hatukuwa na uwezo wa ku export kwa wingi ili tupate forex, so as a condition kutusaidia, wakatulazimisha to devalue our shilling to a dollar ili our products ziwe cheaper to them; mwalimu alikataa mpaka wakati anaondoka, mwinyi akakubali; madhara ya devaluation ni kwamba - badala ya wakubwa nje kununua kilo moja ya kahawa kwa dollar moja for example, sasa wananunua for senti 50 or even less;

Efficiency uizungumzie kwa maana hiyo, sio kwa maana ya upotoshaji kama unavyofanya; the west never stopped to demand our mazao ya kilimo, and low efficiency kilimo made them even want them crops more and more and more and at a much much cheaper price;

Mgalanjuka said:

Hapo umejiabisha sana..




Well, ukirudia post yangu nimekwambia communism ni extreme level ya socialism nikiwa na maana ni level nyingine hivyo napata wasiwasi kama unaelewa vizuri unaposoma...



Hii wewe ndio umeshindwa kuelewa tofauti (we vipi? mbona unasahau kama panya) na kuishia kujichanganya kwamba ujamaa usingeweza ku-face competition, huna logic..



Huwezi kunipa definition kutoka kwenye "wikipedia" wakati unashindwa hata kujua Finland ni industrialized country... Mimi siyo level yako, ungejisomea mwenyewe kwanza kabla ya kuanza kujichanganya


Wow at least now you can google something, copy and paste here next time jielimishe kabla ya kufyatuka unajua watu wanaweza kurudia post zako na kuona jinsi unavyojichanganya

Well,ningefurahi kusoma wakati wa ujamaa ila bahati mbaya sana wewe umevisoma sasa hivi wikipedia pole sana..

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MIT Prof. Noam Chomsky atakuambia "that is a terrible argument"

Mr.Right said:

By Fumbuka Ng'wanakilala
DAR ES SALAAM (Reuters) - Tanzania's arabica coffee prices fell at last week's auction, with just over half of the coffee on offer sold after growers rejected low bids from exporters, traders said on Tuesday.

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Hii ndio nini sasa..............ndio efficiency na WEST kuikataa kahawa au? sielewi unasema nini hapo on that....

Mgalanjuka said:

Kinyonga? You got to stand for what you say buddy... Unakuwa mtata

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Ukisikia watu wanasema West; basi ujue hizo ni power za West. Acha ubishi wa Simba na Yanga. Soma uzijue hizo nchi za West.

Mchambuzi said:

Hii ndio nini sasa..............ndio efficiency na WEST kuikataa kahawa au? sielewi unasema nini hapo on that....

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Hiyo issue iliwahi kutokea wakati wa Nyerere kwa mujibu wa Mkandara. Ndiyo maana nimekuletea uone, ili uelewe vizuri.