Ten Commandments

[Darwin]

Kimsingi sijaona hoja ktk thread yako, wala swali unazungumzia habari kuhusu historia ya vitabu vya Musa, vya karibia 1400 BCE? You know better than I, that hakuna details za kuaminika kuthibisha au kurefute manuscripts za kale kiasi hicho..


..

By the way, I did NOT note that you also suffer from ESCAPISM .. Unaelewa fika kuwa sina mtindio, by thinking otherwise portrays your agitated mind..

Karibu..

Ninachukushauri soma kitabu chako
Angalia kuna aya hiii [Matt 5:17] Utajua kwanini nimemuulizia Musa.

Na yanini nikufundishe kama wewe mwenyewe hata bible yako huijui?

Na kama unasema kwamba nitakimbia basi umejidanganya.

Kuna mwenzako hapa nilipoenda likizo akafikiri nimekimbia copy zake.

Halafu unajua ulichoandika hapo juu?

Mimi nipo hapa hapa na usije ukatumaini kwamba nitaondoka. ukiona hakuna post zangu kwa siku moja au wiki basi naenda kula maraha yangu lakini KAMWE SITAKIMBIA MTU KAMA WEWE.

 

[Darwin]

Darwin the Loser,

Nashukuru kuwa huna mtindio kama wangu.. Kwa maana ni ajabu mtu mwenye akili timamu kama wewe kukaa chini na kuweza ku-reply post ya mtu mwenye mtindio wa ubongo.. This portrays at best your state of mind..

Kama hii ndio gia zako basi sahau!!

Nitakaa hapa hapa.

 

[Abdulhalim]

Kama hii ndio gia zako basi sahau!!

Nitakaa hapa hapa.

Bua ha ha ha ..

My trick worked miracle!!

It is very easy to disturb a volatile loser calling him/herself an ATHEIST..Ai?

Once again you look pretty childish..but be my guest of honor..

 

[Darwin]

Bua ha ha ha ..

My trick worked miracle!!

It is very easy to disturb a volatile loser calling him/herself an ATHEIST..Ai?

Once again you look pretty childish..but be my guest of honor..

Hahahaaaaaaaaaa

I pity you. You are emotional in your argument. You sound
angry.


Now, can you answer my questions?

 

[Abdulhalim]

Ninachukushauri soma kitabu chako

Kama ujuavyo Bible si kitabu changu.. your tongue is soo loose and blasphemous..

Angalia kuna aya hiii [Matt 5:17] Utajua kwanini nimemuulizia Musa.

Ktk post # 60, nimeelezea baadhi ya misingi/approach ktk hili suala kwa upande wangu..Nadhani sihitaji kudurufu maarifat..

Na yanini nikufundishe kama wewe mwenyewe hata bible yako huijui?

Kuijua Bible? Bua ha ha ha ha...! Atheist tangu lini akaijua Bible? Kama nilivyosema na wengine walivyokwisha bainisha na kuanisha hapo awali. Kuwa muumini ni matunda ya kuielewa Bible..Naona niishie hapo, maana naweza kukusababisha uchanganyikiwe zaidi..

Na kama unasema kwamba nitakimbia basi umejidanganya.

Kama nilivyosema, wewe ni rahisi sana kuwa manipulated..na sishangazwi na hii 'U turn' yako. I'm a strategist..Karibu ktk ulimwengu wa watu makini..Hebu soma post zako za nyuma ujigundue jinsi unavyogeukageuka kama kinyonga..

Halafu unajua ulichoandika hapo juu?

Wewe wauliza jibu au swali?

 

[MaxShimba]

How about you, answering my questions one by one.

Umejaza historia tu za lugha ambazo hata mwenyewe huzijui mwanzo wake.

Kama kitu kiliandikwa kwenye jiwe basi kina alphabet

Unajua historia ya alphabet?

Ni nani alikwambia kila kitu kilicho andikwa lazima kiwe na alphabet? Wachina wanatumia alphabet gani?

Usiseme vitu ambavyo huvielewi.

I asked you a question before, you did not answer me and jump to where we are now. I will repeat the question. What language did Israelites/jews used while in captivity?

We have to go step by step. Hakuna kuluka jambo wala nini.

Note:
Naona itabidi tuanzie hapa. Wahusika wote wa hii mada, tafadhali tusibadilishe mwenendo. Nataka tumalize hii mambo. Asap.

Darwin, what language did jews used while in Egypt?

 

[SMU]

1.Kama Moses/Musa alipewa amri kumi za mungu na lugha iliyotumika ni hebrew, imekuaje imepishana uhai wake na amri kumi alizopewa.

It depends on which hebrew language you are refering to; the biblical hebrew or the ancient hebrew(Ketav Ivri). The ten commandemnts were most likely 'written' in ancient hebrew which dates back to 1400bc times.

Hebrew tradition, the Torah itself, as well as Jesus and the New Testament writers name Moses as the divinely inspired author of the Pentateuch. Archeology has yet to discover the precise time that Moses led his people during the Exodus from Egypt, or the actual script utilized by Moses to write the Torah. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls found the entire Pentateuch written in the ancient Hebrew alphabet, known as ketav Ivri or Paleo-Hebrew.

Phoenicia (now Lebanon) was a peaceful sea-faring nation expert in navigation and trade that developed their alphabet around 1400 BC in an effort to communicate with their diverse trading partners that encircled the Mediterranean Sea. It was the Phoenician alphabet that was widely received throughout the Mediterranean world, as it was only 22 letters based on sound, as opposed to the myriad of symbols in cuneiform and hieroglyphics prevalent at the time. The ancient Hebrew alphabet (ketav Ivri or Paleo-Hebrew) was nearly identical to the Phoenician alphabet.

Tradition holds that Ezra adopted the Aramaic square alphabet in place of the ancient Hebrew alphabet during the post-exilic Restoration of Israel in the fifth century BC. As the Aramaic alphabet became the Hebrew alphabet, Hebrew papyri and parchments were then primarily written in Aramaic script. The ancient Hebrew alphabet has persisted to the present day solely with the Samaritans. The Biblical Hebrew text available to us today is thus written in the Hebrew language with the adopted Aramaic alphabet.

Jesus and his Apostles spoke Aramaic. However, the Aramaic language was largely replaced by Arabic with the rise of Islam in the seventh century AD, and is barely spoken today.

In the East, the Phoenician and Aramaic alphabets evolved into and survived as the alphabet of Biblical Hebrew.

2. Kama alphabet za Hebrew zilikuja karne na karne baada ya uhai wa moses kuna mtu mwingine alipewa amri kumi za mungu?

Its the Biblical Hebrew that came centuries after Moses. As argued above, most likely the acient hebrew (Ketav Ivri) was the alphabet used at the time of Moses.

3.Moses wa kwenye bible na torat ni huyo huyo mmoja au wawili?

Hebrew tradition, the Torah, as well as Jesus and the New Testament writers name Moses as the divinely inspired author of the Pentateuch. So it is one and the same person.

4.Je kuna moses wa kabla ya yesu na wa baada ya yesu aliyepewa amri kumi za mungu?

See above. The answer is NO.

It is interesting to note that despite of the common source, we (catholics, anglicans, protestants, orthodox,Jewish and muslims) do not seem to have a common set of ten commandments let alone the interpretation. The commandments passage in Exodus contains more than ten imperative statements, totalling 14 or 15 in all. While the Bible itself assigns the count of "10", using the Hebrew phrase aseret had'varim—translated as the 10 words, statements or things, this phrase does not appear in the passages usually presented as being "the Ten Commandments". Various religions parse the commandments differently.

I wish you all a great new year 2009

 

[Darwin]

Hebrew tradition, the Torah itself, as well as Jesus and the New Testament writers name Moses as the divinely inspired author of the Pentateuch. Archeology has yet to discover the precise time that Moses led his people during the Exodus from Egypt, or the actual script utilized by Moses to write the Torah. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls found the entire Pentateuch written in the ancient Hebrew alphabet, known as ketav Ivri or Paleo-Hebrew.

Soma mwenyewe historia ya ketav Ivri or Paleo-Hebrew, ukishapata jibu la muda wa hizo alphabet kwa hio lugha unayosema basi utajua kwamba hata unachoandika hukijui

Phoenicia (now Lebanon) was a peaceful sea-faring nation expert in navigation and trade that developed their alphabet around 1400 BC in an effort to communicate with their diverse trading partners that encircled the Mediterranean Sea. It was the Phoenician alphabet that was widely received throughout the Mediterranean world, as it was only 22 letters based on sound, as opposed to the myriad of symbols in cuneiform and hieroglyphics prevalent at the time. The ancient Hebrew alphabet (ketav Ivri or Paleo-Hebrew) was nearly identical to the Phoenician alphabet.

Tradition holds that Ezra adopted the Aramaic square alphabet in place of the ancient Hebrew alphabet during the post-exilic Restoration of Israel in the fifth century BC. As the Aramaic alphabet became the Hebrew alphabet, Hebrew papyri and parchments were then primarily written in Aramaic script. The ancient Hebrew alphabet has persisted to the present day solely with the Samaritans. The Biblical Hebrew text available to us today is thus written in the Hebrew language with the adopted Aramaic alphabet.

Jesus and his Apostles spoke Aramaic. However, the Aramaic language was largely replaced by Arabic with the rise of Islam in the seventh century AD, and is barely spoken today.

In the East, the Phoenician and Aramaic alphabets evolved into and survived as the alphabet of Biblical Hebrew.

2. Kama alphabet za Hebrew zilikuja karne na karne baada ya uhai wa moses kuna mtu mwingine alipewa amri kumi za mungu?

Its the Biblical Hebrew that came centuries after Moses. As argued above, most likely the acient hebrew (Ketav Ivri) was the alphabet used at the time of Moses.[

Again soma history ya alphabet

3.Moses wa kwenye bible na torat ni huyo huyo mmoja au wawili?

Hebrew tradition, the Torah, as well as Jesus and the New Testament writers name Moses as the divinely inspired author of the Pentateuch. So it is one and the same person.

Wewe sio Max, au pengine SMU ndio huyo huyo Max lakini kuna sehemu aliyoandika

In Genesis 31:47, Laban and Jacob refer a heap of stones in their native speech. Laban uses phrase "Yegar Sahaduta" which is Aramaic, lakini Jacob anatumia "Gal-Ed" ambayo ni Hebrew.

Katika hii post jibu umelipata kwamba mpaka sasa bado haijulikani lugha iliyotumika ni ipi.

Na hata kama lugha zote mbili moja ya hio ilitumika nikwamba

WAKATI HUO HAKUNA ALPHABET YA HIZO LUGHA

 

[Darwin]

Ni nani alikwambia kila kitu kilicho andikwa lazima kiwe na alphabet? Wachina wanatumia alphabet gani?

Mengine uliyoandika nakuachia tu uandike lakini hii ndio inayokubainisha kwamba huna unachojua.

Kwa maana hio Moses/Moshee/Musa anaweza kuwa ni mchina, au penginepo kulikua hata hakuna mtu anayeitwa Moses. Au penginepo alikua mmatumbi ni nani anajua!!?

Mwisho

Dini is attractive for those who cannot handle scientific uncertainty. They get bewildered, just like you.
Science is for the stronger minds, who can handle uncertainty and the probable fact (that we of course try to falsify) that we will never know all about everything, let alone can explain.

 

[Darwin]

Ni nani alikwambia kila kitu kilicho andikwa lazima kiwe na alphabet? Wachina wanatumia alphabet gani?

Usiseme vitu ambavyo huvielewi.

I asked you a question before, you did not answer me and jump to where we are now. I will repeat the question. What language did Israelites/jews used while in captivity?

We have to go step by step. Hakuna kuluka jambo wala nini.

Note:
Naona itabidi tuanzie hapa. Wahusika wote wa hii mada, tafadhali tusibadilishe mwenendo. Nataka tumalize hii mambo. Asap.

Darwin, what language did jews used while in Egypt?

Kwanza ungenipa jibu moja tu kuhusu lugha iliyotumiwa kwenye jiwe. na nurudia, lugha moja tu

sio hii post yako uliweka

In Genesis 31:47, Laban and Jacob refer a heap of stones in their native speech. Laban uses phrase "Yegar Sahaduta" which is Aramaic, lakini Jacob anatumia "Gal-Ed" ambayo ni Hebrew.

Na hata kama mawe yaliandikwa kwa lugha mbili nikwamba hizo lugha wakati huo wa Moshee/Moses/Musa hazina alphabet upo hapo?

Hayo maswali unayotoa usione kwamba pengine siyajui

 

[Darwin]

Kama ujuavyo Bible si kitabu changu.. your tongue is soo loose and blasphemous..

Kama umeiona hio inakwenda kwako basi nasema kitabu chenu, au kitabu cha wajanja wachache wanaowapata wajinga

Wewe wauliza jibu au swali?

Kuwa na kumbukumbu?
Ni wewe uliyeandika hii

Known extra-Biblical references to Moses date from many centuries after his supposed lifetime, and contain significant departures from the Biblical account

Nakuuliza tena unajua unachoandika?

 

[Abdulhalim]

Kama umeiona hio inakwenda kwako basi nasema kitabu chenu, au kitabu cha wajanja wachache wanaowapata wajinga

Sawa ndg yangu uliye 'mwerevu'. Hao walioandika Bible ni wajanja hilo silipingi. Pia Bible si kitabu. Ni mkusanyiko wa vitabu.

Kuwa na kumbukumbu?
Ni wewe uliyeandika hii
Nakuuliza tena unajua unachoandika?

Kweli unakichwa kigumu ndg yangu. Hapo nilikuwa nasisitiza hoja. Actually kama nilivyosema hapo kwenye nukulu kutoka wikipedia, account za ziada kumuhusu Moses zina umri wa karne kadhaa baada ya maisha yake. Kama unaakili timamu niambie hii manake nini?

 

[Darwin]

Sawa ndg yangu uliye 'mwerevu'. Hao walioandika Bible ni wajanja hilo silipingi. Pia Bible si kitabu. Ni mkusanyiko wa vitabu.



Kweli unakichwa kigumu ndg yangu. Hapo nilikuwa nasisitiza hoja. Actually kama nilivyosema hapo kwenye nukulu kutoka wikipedia, account za ziada kumuhusu Moses zina umri wa karne kadhaa baada ya maisha yake. Kama unaakili timamu niambie hii manake nini?

1. Yule aliyepewa amri mpaka sasa hakuna jibu la usahihi kuhusu lugha au tuseme alphabet iliyotumiwa

2.Utaongezaje account za ziada kama huo wanzo wenyewe huna uhakika nao?

Mwisho
You can as well investigate the unknown. That is what science is all about: investigate the unknown. Which aims, since Popper, at eliminating the approved false theories, rhather than prove so-called truths which are only waiting to be falsified.

 

[Abdulhalim]

1. Yule aliyepewa amri mpaka sasa hakuna jibu la usahihi kuhusu lugha au tuseme alphabet iliyotumiwa

Taib. Hapa umepatia. Na ndio maana deen haiwezi kujishughulisha na mambo ambayo ni mundane....Ai? Kazi hiyo tunakuachie wewe Darwin na wenzako maana inawafaa, mnaojiita wanasayansi. Endeleeni. Ila sisi watu wa deen tunaangalia divine merit ya ujumbe kutoka kwa Moses, kwa sababu si maudhui makuu ya deen kujishughulisha na trivial matters kama hizi nilizoziita mundane..Aiiii?

2.Utaongezaje account za ziada kama huo wanzo wenyewe huna uhakika nao?

Nilipoleta ile nukulu, nilikuwa najaribu kuonesha hoja kuwa hayo 'maelezo ya kiada' kumuhusu Moses na maisha yake, yalikuja karne kadhaa baada ya maisha yake..Kwa maana rahisi ni kuwa usahihi wake ni wa mashaka zaidi..unless kuna independent evidence kuthibitisha vinginevyo.

Makelele yako yangekuwa yana-sound iwapo ungekuja na huu uthibitisho unaojitegemea kuelezea unayoelezea.

Mwisho
You can as well investigate the unknown. That is what science is all about: investigate the unknown. Which aims, since Popper, at eliminating the approved false theories, rhather than prove so-called truths which are only waiting to be falsified.

Taib.

 

[MaxShimba]

Kwanza ungenipa jibu moja tu kuhusu lugha iliyotumiwa kwenye jiwe. na nurudia, lugha moja tu

sio hii post yako uliweka


Na hata kama mawe yaliandikwa kwa lugha mbili nikwamba hizo lugha wakati huo wa Moshee/Moses/Musa hazina alphabet upo hapo?

Hayo maswali unayotoa usione kwamba pengine siyajui

I answered this questions many times. It is both. Ketav Ashurit on the broken tablet-the first one, and Ketav Ivrit on the second tablet.

Ndio maana nilisema soma narratives zangu.

Regarding Moses. I repeat again, there was only one Moses. The husband of Zipporah and brother of Miriam.

Now answer my question.

 

[Magobe T]

I answered this questions many times. It is both. Ketav Ashurit on the broken tablet-the first one, and Ketav Ivrit on the second tablet.

Ndio maana nilisema soma narratives zangu.

Regarding Moses. I repeat again, there was only one Moses. The husband of Zipporah and brother of Miriam.

Now answer my question.

Mkuu, mbona wewe na Mtindiowaubongo mnahangaika kumjibu Darwin ambaye haonyeshi nia ya kuelewa? Huwezi kujadili na mtu hoja wakati kitu chenyewe mnachojadili hakiamini. Sasa mnajadili kitu gani?

Kwanza aliuliza kama kuna Moses mmoja tu au wawili; sasa anasema Biblia ni kitabu kilichoandikwa na wajanja wachache ili wawapate wajinga.

Ina maana kuwa kwa mtazamo wake wewe na wote wanaokiamini hicho kitabu hicho ni wajinga. Katika mjadala wowote kunahitajika 'intellectual humility' na kama mtu hana hiyo 'humility' kujadili naye kitu ni kujisumbua tu.

Ni sawa na kumpigia mbuzi gitaa. Na yesu mwenyewe alisema: 'Don't throw good food to dogs'. Na ninachoona mimi you're throwing that good food to dogs. Isn't it a waste of time?

 

[Darwin]

I answered this questions many times. It is both. Ketav Ashurit on the broken tablet-the first one, and Ketav Ivrit on the second tablet.

Ketav Ashurit = Hebrew upo hapo?

Ketav Ivrit = Phoenician upo bado?

Sasa basi nakupa homework ukatafute hizo lugha mbili history ya alphabet zake, ukishapata jawabu lake utakua na wewe utaandika kama mwenzio alivyoandika hii

Nilipoleta ile nukulu, nilikuwa najaribu kuonesha hoja kuwa hayo 'maelezo ya kiada' kumuhusu Moses na maisha yake, yalikuja karne kadhaa baada ya maisha yake..Kwa maana rahisi ni kuwa usahihi wake ni wa mashaka zaidi..unless kuna independent evidence kuthibitisha vinginevyo.

Na utaandika tena kama hii

In Genesis 31:47, Laban and Jacob refer a heap of stones in their native speech. Laban uses phrase "Yegar Sahaduta" which is Aramaic, lakini Jacob anatumia "Gal-Ed" ambayo ni Hebrew.

 

[Darwin]

Mkuu, mbona wewe na Mtindiowaubongo mnahangaika kumjibu Darwin ambaye haonyeshi nia ya kuelewa? Huwezi kujadili na mtu hoja wakati kitu chenyewe mnachojadili hakiamini. Sasa mnajadili kitu gani?

Kwanza aliuliza kama kuna Moses mmoja tu au wawili; sasa anasema Biblia ni kitabu kilichoandikwa na wajanja wachache ili wawapate wajinga.

Ina maana kuwa kwa mtazamo wake wewe na wote wanaokiamini hicho kitabu hicho ni wajinga. Katika mjadala wowote kunahitajika 'intellectual humility' na kama mtu hana hiyo 'humility' kujadili naye kitu ni kujisumbua tu.

Ni sawa na kumpigia mbuzi gitaa. Na yesu mwenyewe alisema: 'Don't throw good food to dogs'. Na ninachoona mimi you're throwing that good food to dogs. Isn't it a waste of time?

Kama unakumbuka niliwahi kumuambia Max kwamba bible ni mish-mash

As for you believing the bible, you should believe that you know nothing, can by no means know gods intentions nor can trust what jesus c. says about himself:

Job 8 : 9 " For we are but from yesterday)and know nothing,"
Isaia 55 : 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the lord"
St. Shaughn 5 : 31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true"

Isnt that funny!?

Again
You can cite the whole bible from front to end and backwards, upside down or inside out, but that does not alter the simple fact that it is only a human artefact, produced by fallible men about the hearsay of hearsay of hearsay that someone said that god might have said. [hadithi za popobawa]
Without any trace of evidence that it was god or the devil or just hallucination.

Unless of course, you can show me a bible (or any 'holy' scripture for that matter) that has been created without any interference of man and doubtlessly can be ascribed to god and no other.

 

[Magobe T]

Kama unakumbuka niliwahi kumuambia Max kwamba bible ni mish-mash

As for you believing the bible, you should believe that you know nothing, can by no means know gods intentions nor can trust what jesus c. says about himself:

Job 8 : 9 " For we are but from yesterday)and know nothing,"
Isaia 55 : 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the lord"
St. Shaughn 5 : 31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true"

Isnt that funny!?

Again
You can cite the whole bible from front to end and backwards, upside down or inside out, but that does not alter the simple fact that it is only a human artefact, produced by fallible men about the hearsay of hearsay of hearsay that someone said that god might have said. [hadithi za popobawa]
Without any trace of evidence that it was god or the devil or just hallucination.

Unless of course, you can show me a bible (or any 'holy' scripture for that matter) that has been created without any interference of man and doubtlessly can be ascribed to god and no other.

First, you have no clue of what the Bible is. It's God's Word communicated/revealed to humans through human agents and using human faculties. God communicates to humans through human agents and who communicate in a certain way - using a certain medium of communication; if He wants to communicate to non-living things he would also use non-living agents.

So, God works in us, through us and uses our human faculties to communicate to us or to reveal His intentionality/economy of salvation. That is why when we choose a genuine leader, we attribute it to God's work; when we curse a depraved person we attribute it to God (speaking through us); when we succeed in the right way, we say God has made us succeed etc. Why do we do this? It's because we discover/experience His guiding hand in whatever we do. We discern His promptings/inspirations but also destructive forces in us. We can rightly say: what's constructive is from God (love, kindness, truth, forgiveness, progress, informed choices etc) and what's destructive is from evil forces (selfishness, individualism, hypocricy, manipulation, hatred, retrogression).

Second, by just saying what you've done doesn't stop the Bible from speaking personally to those who believe it. In fact, there have been plenty of critical thinkers who have written extensively on what you are trying to say but it hasn't helped them.

On the contrary, some of them had to change their mind again before the end of their lives. Eyes of faith are different from the eyes of reason yet both serve the same purpose of discovering the truth about God and about ourselves.

Pascal puts it beautifully when he says: 'The heart has reasons the mind cannot understand' and truth is not limited to what you can manipulate and explain. As I said it a few days ago, the Bible is not the book to read like the way we do when reading about history, geography, science or archeology.

If you read it that way, you make it say what it doesn't want to say. It is meant to be medidated on: read it carefully and medidate on what you've read (internalise it). If there's any proof believers can offer is the fact that despite the lies some people have created, God's word/message will remain and no one (including you) will be able to defeat it. Why? Because God's word/message is eternal. You and I will die but not God's word - truth, kindness, love, forgiveness, hope, etc.

 

[Darwin]

First, you have no clue of what the Bible is. It's God's Word communicated/revealed to humans through human agents and using a human language. God communicates to humans through human agents and faculties; if He wants to communicate to non-living things he would also use non-living agents.

Na ndio maana nikamiuliza nyie waumini kwamba; again and again
Lugha aliyempa huyo mjumbe wake wa kwanza ni lugha gani?
Mpaka sasa hamna jibu sahihi mliloshika.

Mtu huyo huyo wa kwanza mpaka sasa kuna mashaka mengi kuhusu yeye sasa tutaamini wanaofuata?

So, God works in us, through us and uses our human faculties to communicate to us or to reveal His intentionality/economy of salvation. That is why when we choose a genuine leader, we attribute it to God's work; when we curse a depraved person we attribute it to God (speaking through us); when we succeed in the right way, we say God has made us succeed etc. Why we do this? It's because we discover/experience His guiding hand in what we do. We discern His promptings/inspirations in us.

Na huyo huyo mnayemuita mungu aki fail myatakayo basi atakua ni devil, huoni kasoro ya post yako?