Tanzania ina watu milioni 43, Zanzibar hawazidi milioni 5 kwa nini tugawane kwa kulingana?

[kiloni]

Si vema kuwaambia wachangia hoja kuwa wanatumia "tumbo kufikiri", hayo ni matusi kabisa na sidhani kama ni utu na inaonyesha wewe hujalelewa na values nzuri...sidhani kama kujibu hoja mpaka utukane, kwani ukitumia lugha proper hutasikilizwa? The fact that you start with insults doesn't show you use your head...and you are shaming yourself. Plus this issue is a very critical issue, huwezi kulinganisha na UN wala EAC...We are talking about justice within the union...in the use of our resources. Equitable distribution of governance and resources. How can you ignore such carnal issues? My friend, next time be civil...

SAWA mkuu mueleweshe, even in all human rights dimensions we are talking of equity (fairness) and not equality.
You know when somebody is emotional he ceases to use the head.

 

[kiloni]

acheni kutumia tumbo katika kufikiri, Jamhuri ya muungano wa Tanzania ni zalio la Jamhuri ya watu wa Zanzibar na Jamhuri ya Tanganyika. na zilipoungana nchi hizi mbili zilikuwa huru na kama nchi hatuangalii idadi ya watu katika kuungana

na katiba ya mwanzo ya mwaka 77 pia iliundwa kwa idadi sawa ambayo kamati yake iliongozwa na Marehemu Thabit Kombo(kama sijakosoa kuhusu Mwenyekiti au katibu) mbona huko hakujapigiwa kelele iweje leo kurejea tu mfumo ambao tumetumia iwe zogo?




mnataka kusema kwa vile Tanganyika kubwa mara nyingi kuliko Rwanda au Burundi, kwenye EAC watanganyika wapewe wajumbe zaidi au wataporeview katiba ya EAC watanganyika wawe na wawakilishi wengi kwa kuwa wao wana eneo kubwa na wana watu wengi?

jamani tuacheni kupenda dhuluma na kufikiri zanzibar ni kama Mbagala ati kwa kuwa wana eneo dogo na watu kidogo (maana watu ingekuwa ni hoja UN wangewapa CHINA viti zaidi ya kimoja)

Jamani waacheni wazanzibari Zanzibar yao. Sie tubaki na Tanganyiko yetu. Hatuhitaji tena matusi

 

[lebabu11]

Katiba ya Tanzania kwa uhalisia wake ni katiba ya Tanzania Bara kwa kuwa Zanzibar ina katiba yake na serikali yake.
Kuna kujidanganya kwa sababu tu ya woga wa kufanya mambo katika ukweli na hili ndilo tatizo kubwa la muungano.
Kwa hali ilivyo sasa, rais wa Jamhuri ya Muungano wa Tanzania, akiwa Zanzibar anakuwa chini ya rais wa Zanzibar. Hii inadhihirika wakati wa sherehe za kitaifa na inaweza ikatafsirika kwamba Rais wa JMT hana mamlaka halisi ZNZ.
Katiba mpya inatakiwa iweke mambo haya sawa, kuwa na serikali moja au kuwa na muungano wenye serikali ya shirikisho.
Kwa hali ilivyo sasa, rais wa JMT kutoka upande wa Zanzibar, na hata wabunge wa kutoka Zanzibar kujadili na kuamua mambo yasiyo ya Muungano bungeni haijakaa sawa.
Tunatakiwa kuwa na viongozi watakaoangalia mambo kwa uwazi bila woga unaowafanya kuwa wanafiki kwa mambo yanayohusu mustakabali wa taifa letu Tanzania.

 

[Ngekewa]

Katika miungano mingi duniani, mara nyingi huangukia katika makundi haya:
Confederation, Federation au Union. Hata kama utatengeneza kitu tofauti ni lazima kitabeba sura inayofanana na kimoja kilichotajwa.
sasa huu wetu uko kwenye sura gani, na unafanana na nchi gani?

Haki inaandamana na wajibu, ukidai haki unaowajibu. Kama Znz wanataka kila kitu sawa kama mawaziri na wabunge hiyo ni haki. Je wanawajibika vipi kuchangia shughuli zinazoongozwa na watu hao? Kwa namba, bajeti ya bilioni 500 unatoa kiasi gani ili japo kuendesha wizara moja tu ya elimu!
Zanzibar hawajawahi kutaka kila kitu sawa isipokuwa wanataka usawa. Nini usawa? Tanganyika mna uwezo wa kujiunga na Taasisi yoyote duniani, Zanzibar hawana., Tanganyika mnapoona swali linakufaeni nyie basi mnaamuwa tu lakini Zanzibar wakifanya hivyo inakuwa nongwa , Tanganyika mnaamuwa lolote bila kuishauri zanzibar, Zanzibar kwao ni uhaini, na mambo chungu nzima. Hata hivyo kama nilivyokwambia Zanzibar haijadai kila kitu sawa isipokuwa mada tuliyonayo hapa ni uwakilishi katika kutunga Katiba ya Ujumla. Kuhusu kuchangia hebu tulishakaa tukaangalia kutokana na mapato ya vyanzo vya pamoja vya mapato, nani anatumia kiasi gani na nani anatumia kiasi gani? Wajibu na haki ni kwa pande zote na anaeanzisha kupinga hilo basi ndie mwenye matatizo.
.
Hawajawahi kususia hata siku moja na ni Wazanzibar!

Hawatasusia hata siku moja kwani wao wako kazini, kwani si mmewaajiri kama wapiga debe kwenye basi lenu? Unafikiri hao CHADEMA hawachangamkii malipo ya Bungeni na ruzuku ya vyama inayotolewa na Serikali wanayoipinga?
Hata hao 500,000 ni wengi sana ukilinganisha na 10,000, ni nusu ya population ya Zanzibar.
Hili la wabunge wa kuteuliwa ni kweli hata mimi linanishangaza na katiba mpya lazima tuliongelee maana hatuwezi kuwa na watu tusiowachagua, na wanamwakilisha nani.
Lakini hata miongoni mwa hao wa kuteuliwa wapo Wazanzibar na kuongeza idadi zaidi, pengine kumfanya mbunge wa Znz apunguze 10,000 hadi 6,000.
Tatizo lako ni lile la dereva anaesema nina abiria kumi na wamasai watatu. Mbona hamuwalipi Wakenya? Si kiherehere chenu cha kuwadanganya watu eti ni bunge la Muungano wakati huo sio ukweli hata chembe.

Population ni kigezo muhimu sana katika kupanga shughuli za maendeleo. Ni kigezo pia cha nguvu za kiuchumi na kijamii. Mfano India inafikiriwa kuingia katika baraza la usalama la UN, si tu kutokana na nguvu ya uchumi au teknolojia lakini population yake ina impact kubwa sana katika maamuzi mengi na muhimu. Jiulize kwanini isiwe Norway au Switzeland.

Tayari hilo linatekelezwa kwenye Bunge au vipi? Tunachozungumzia hapa ni Muungano na Katiba ya Muungano na kwa ninavyofahamu mimimni kuwa nchi zilizoungana ni mbili na hazikuweka kipengele cha ukubwa na wingi wa watu. Hao India kama watafanyiwa hivyo watafanyiwa kwenye uamuzi wa uwakilishi sawa huko UNO na kama hili la wingi lina matter kwa Tanzania basi na tuliamuwe kwenye uwakilishi sawa wa pande zinazohusika. Na kwa hilo la wingi sijui Urusi itaondoshewa veto kwa vile sasa ina population ndogo?
Umesahau kuwa huko UN wapo wenye Veto.

Angalau huko UN wakati mwengine hiyo veto inakuwa na maana, sijuui veto ya Tanganyika ikiwepo sijui... walahi sijui.

 

[Nonda]

Kama kuoa na kuolewa ndo tuseme tunaundugu wa damu sioni mantiki kabisa. Nenda kwenye miji ya mipakani ya nchi yeyote Duniani, wananchi wa pale utakuta wameoana na kuoleana lakini nchi hizo hazina muungano wa aina yeyote.

Kwa Tanzania nenda Tarime, Sirari, Mtukula, Rusumo, Horohoro, Namanga nk. Utakuta kuna muingiliano wa kuoana kati ya jamii za nchi zote mbili.

Mbali na nchi zilizoko jirani, kuna watanzania wameoa ama kuolewa na wazungu, je mbona hatusemi tuna undugu nao wa damu tuungane nao? Wazanzibar wenyewe wanandugu wengi tu Oman, je wana muungano?
Hoja dhaifu zinazopandikizwa na wanasiasa uchwara kwa manufaa yao hazitakiwi katika kizazi hiki.

Mkuu.
Soma post #114.
Utajielewa kuwa ulifahamu lakini hukufahamu.
Soma kwa makini ,Mkuu.

 

[Ngekewa]

Nguvuri3, Ngekewa, Juma Contena na wanaJF wote.

Muungano wa Tangayika na Zanzibar ni utata mtupu.

Mambo mengi yanayohusu muungao huu hayako wazi. Malalamiko yako kwa pande zote mbili za muungano. Na malalamiko haya si ya kuyapuuza. Cha kustaajabisha ni kuwa "Viongozi" wetu wanafikiri matatizo ya muungano yatajitatua yenyewe. Kwa kukosa ujasiri, uwazi na nia njema ,kero za Muungano zinaongezeka badala ya kupungua au kupata solution.

Mnapotoa bajeti au matumizi basi ni lazima pia uoneshe mapato. Hili halifanywi na hivyo kufanya mahesabu yenu kubaki kuning'inia tu hewani.
wakati mnaendelea na mjadala huu kuna hiki kijarida ambacho kimechapisha kituo cha katiba, kisomeni ili mpate ufahamu zaidi wa mnachokijadili. Ni wazi kwa hoja mnazozitoa hapa ni kiashiria kuwa mnakubali kuwa huu muungano wa "Tanzania" ni utata mwingi.

Na vipi utata utatatuliwa kama pande zilizounda muungano huu zinasita kukaa tena kuupitia na kuamua na kuweka mipaka, vigezo vya kuuongoza muungano wenyewe?
Sasa hivi ni rule of the jungle ndio inayoongoza Muungano huu na hivyo sivyo ambavyo inatakiwa iwe kwa kitu kikubwa na muhimu kama muungano wa nchi mbili huru.

Kwa mfano humo katika kijarida kinasema hivi..

Muundo wa Muungano
Muundo wa Muungano ni wa serikali mbili na mamlaka tatu tofauti za sheria. Mkataba wa Muungano unaelezea kuwepo kwa Serikaliya Muungano na serikali ya Zanzibar. Ya Muungano ina uwezo wa kisheria wa namna mbili: Wa mambo ya Muungano, na mambo yasiyo ya Muungano ya bara. Serikali ya Zanzibar ina uwezo wa kisheria kwa Mambo ya Zanzibar ambayo si ya Muungano.

Hakuna vipengele kuhusu serikali ya Tanganyika; hakuna Rais au bunge liliopo kwa ajili hiyo.Hakuna uhakika juu ya ni muundo gani wa Muungano Mkataba wa Muungano uliufikiria: Mkataba huo ulifikiria kuwepo kwa serikali ya muungano, ya shirikisho, ya muungano wa majimbo au utaratibu wa ushirikishwaji?

Wengi wanakubali kuwa Muungano si mojawapo ya mifumo hii. Wanauelezea kuwa ni sui generis. Ni muungano kwa baadhi ya mambo lakini si muungano kwa baadhi ya mambo. Baadhi ya watu wanuelezea “upekee” huu kuwa ni kwa sababu ya kutotaka kuudhiwa au kuulizwa chochote juu ya Muungano huo.

Zimetolewa sababu kadha kuhusu muundo huu. Moja ni kwa sababu ya hali ya dharura iliyokuwepo katika kuunda Muungano.
Hapajakuwa na muda, hata kwa wanasheria kuzishughulikia nyaraka. Nyerere alikuwa ameshughulika na kutaka kuulinda utambulisho wa Zanzibar kwa kuwa na serikali yake yenyewe. Kwa vyovyote vile, hii ilikuwa ni hatua ya muda tu na kwa mujibu wa Mkataba wa Muungano, ilikuwa iundwe tume ambayo ingelitengeneza muundo wa kudumu; hilo halikutokea.

Wengine wanauelezea muundo huu kuwa ni matokeo ya tofauti zilizokuwepo kati ya mtazamo wa Nyerere na ule wa Karume​

kuhusiana na mustakabali wa Muungano.….pg26

Kama mnataka kuboresha hoja zenu basi kisomeni. Unakipata hapa.

http://www.kituochakatiba.org/index2.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=1208&Itemid=27

Nonda! Mengi yameandikwa kuhusu Muungano huu lakini ukweli hasa ni kuwa Wazanzibari ndio wanaofahamu kero za Muungano. Watanganyika na Wazanzibari wote wamekuwa victim wa mtu mmoja na kwa vile huyu mtu anaonekana kuwa na hadhi kubwa Watanganyika wanalazimika kuubeba Muungano huku wakiwa hawana moyo hasa wa muungano huu.

Kama kulikuwa na sababu za Karume kutaka Muungano alikuwa na sababu zake lakini hakuwa na moyo wa Muungano huu tunaouona sasa. Karume juu ya kukubali kuwa Rais wa Tanzania awe Nyerere lakini hakuna kitendo hata kimoja alichofanya chenye kuashiria kuwa alitaka akasimu madaraka na majukumu ya Zanzibar kwa Tanganyika. Matendo na kauli zake zote zilikuwa Zanzibar ni nchi inayojitegemea.
Kifo cha Karume ndicho kilichopleta hali ya Muungano wa sasa. Nyerere alipomzidi akili Jumbe na kuiachilia Zanzibar kutawaliwa na Tanganyika. Hali hii kwa Watanganyika haikuwa kero kwao kwani hawakuwa na majukumu yoyote kwa Zanzibar. Tatizo likaanza pale Wazanzibari walipoanza kutowa orodha ya mambo wanayotaka wafanyiwe na Serikali ya Muungano. Kwa vile hadi hapo Tanzania ilikuwa niTanganyika hawkuwa wakiona kero lakini Zanzibar walipoanza kudai mambo ambayo huko nyuma hayakufikiriwa kuwa ya pamoja ndipo Watanganyika nao kuanza kuonja kero ya Muungano!
Ukiangalia na kuwauliza Watanganyika nini kero zao za Muungano utashindwa kuzipata na badala yake yale yaliyokubaliwa na pamoja ndio utaambiwa kero. Eti Tanganyika haipo ( walikuwa wakifurahi kuitwa Watanzania na Wazanzibari wakiwaita Wazanzuibari au Wapemba) eti zanzibar hawatoi mchango, Zanzibar hivi mara hivi. Ukweli wenyewe ni kuwa Wazanzibari wanataka kuishi katika mfuimo wa Muungano wa wakati wa Karume , Watanganyika nao hawataki pengine wanaogopa kuwa zanzibar itarudi katika yale maendeleo ya wakati ule wa Karume!

 

[Nonda]

Ngekewa.

Mswada wa sheria ya Katiba Mpya unatumia Tanzania Mainland na Tanzania Zanzibar.
Nchi moja inakuja hiyo. Kaeni tayari.

Kwa nini GNU yenu haiombi kujadili Muungano kwanza kabla ya Katiba Mpya?

Au DR. Shein aliwekwa pale kwa kazi maalum?

Nimesoma kiasi kuhusu Muungano wa Tanzania na naelewa kuwa una utata mkubwa, Umetawaliwa na mizengwe!

Na wananchi wa pande zote mbili wana malalamiko ya msingi, lakini inaonekana kuna siri kubwa sana ya Muungano huu ambayo Viongozi wa CCM wanaijua lakini sisi wengi hatuielewi.

 

[Ben Saanane]

Nimekuwa nikisizitiza Umuhimu wa Federalism kwa nchi kama yetu.Kati yetu na zanzibar imekuwa kama ni one state against the other.It's like one state hijacked the rights and privileges of another state by conspirancy

Reading the above made me think deeply on the composition of Tanzania and the different challenges posed to us as a people. Tanzania has seemingly stagnated due to the fact that we have refused to base our togetherness as a nation on the strengths of our differences as a group of diverse nations. As evidenced in the practice of Union style practiced by countries similar in composition to Tanzania as Switzerland through cantonments (loose federation,though) and United Kingdom, we can not grow in our present contraption where there is gross concentration of power and duties in an all-powerful central government instead of an ideal situation where we should have powerful states/regions with a strong enough central government to cater for areas of common need such as National security i.e the Armed forces, Intelligence agencies and para-military forces excluding the police; and Foreign affairs. States/Regions should be made to cater for the needs of their peoples and pay tax/duties to the central government Only by so doing can we really develop our people and make governance less attractive to purposeless administrators/leaders. We are a people abundantly blessed by nature with more resources than most of the so-called developed economies in the world.

Under the present system that aims at getting all the peoples in Tanzaniato the goal of development at the same time and hour, we are consistently doomed to continuously wander with no concrete achievements to write home about. True Federalism would solve problems like Tanganyika-Zanzibar leadership clashes and unproductive debates, local government creation since their funding would be from the state governments and as such problems of increased funding from the Union account leading to suspicion among the different States/regions in Tanzania would be eliminated. This would also reduce the problem of illiteracy as states would be compelled to develop their people as individuals to be able to compete with other states as a means of avoiding being left behind and also to harness their resources as best as they can, whether mineral resources, manpower, Intellect, industry etc.

So,Zanzibar's case itakuwa solved as kutakuwa na states nyingi kama Zanzibar. Tanganyika na Zanzibar ya Leo itagawanywa vipande vipannde na ku-create several states,but in the process we must ensure that,tribalism and religion-ism should be avoided

 

[Ngekewa]

Nimekuwa nikisizitiza Umuhimu wa Federalism kwa nchi kama yetu.Kati yetu na zanzibar imekuwa kama ni one state against the other.It's like one state hijacked the rights and privileges of another state by conspirancy

Reading the above made me think deeply on the composition of Tanzania and the different challenges posed to us as a people. Tanzania has seemingly stagnated due to the fact that we have refused to base our togetherness as a nation on the strengths of our differences as a group of diverse nations. As evidenced in the practice of Union style practiced by countries similar in composition to Tanzania as Switzerland through cantonments (loose federation,though) and United Kingdom, we can not grow in our present contraption where there is gross concentration of power and duties in an all-powerful central government instead of an ideal situation where we should have powerful states/regions with a strong enough central government to cater for areas of common need such as National security i.e the Armed forces, Intelligence agencies and para-military forces excluding the police; and Foreign affairs. States/Regions should be made to cater for the needs of their peoples and pay tax/duties to the central government Only by so doing can we really develop our people and make governance less attractive to purposeless administrators/leaders. We are a people abundantly blessed by nature with more resources than most of the so-called developed economies in the world.

Under the present system that aims at getting all the peoples in Tanzaniato the goal of development at the same time and hour, we are consistently doomed to continuously wander with no concrete achievements to write home about. True Federalism would solve problems like Tanganyika-Zanzibar leadership clashes and unproductive debates, local government creation since their funding would be from the state governments and as such problems of increased funding from the Union account leading to suspicion among the different States/regions in Tanzania would be eliminated. This would also reduce the problem of illiteracy as states would be compelled to develop their people as individuals to be able to compete with other states as a means of avoiding being left behind and also to harness their resources as best as they can, whether mineral resources, manpower, Intellect, industry etc.

So,Zanzibar's case itakuwa solved as kutakuwa na states nyingi kama Zanzibar. Tanganyika na Zanzibar ya Leo itagawanywa vipande vipannde na ku-create several states,but in the process we must ensure that,tribalism and religion-ism should be avoided

My dear brother you will never import idealism in order to find universality on certain issue. When you talk about intergration within the societies many factors are the determinants. Every intergration is evidently posses its unique characters.
Tanzania Union is not diffrent as far as possesing its characteristics and for some time it sustained without complains or grudges. The union was based on self determination for both parties. Zanzibar was free to conduct what it felt good for its development and Tanganyika agreed to change its name while held back all its rights as a county. Everything went smoothly and every Tanzanian was happy with the situation. There were alot of barriers for one from one side of Union to cross to another part but it was not an issue as far as everyone has his right and share only the name..
The death of Karume and the cunning steps from one of the founder of Union to change the foundation of the Union is what caused this mess. Like Ujamaa ideology, people of Tanzania did not know the essence of unity beyond having the same nationality, Tanzanians, only to be exposed to the realities in the manner of confrontation between the two parties.
The prevailing problems had not slightly help the situation. instead of gentlemen negotiations we are faced by fight of words and thus your idea of federation will not work because it is too late as we have become wiser than were during the period of personal ideologies of our leaders

 

[Ngekewa]

Ngekewa.

Mswada wa sheria ya Katiba Mpya unatumia Tanzania Mainland na Tanzania Zanzibar.
Nchi moja inakuja hiyo. Kaeni tayari.

Kwa nini GNU yenu haiombi kujadili Muungano kwanza kabla ya Katiba Mpya?

Au DR. Shein aliwekwa pale kwa kazi maalum?

Nimesoma kiasi kuhusu Muungano wa Tanzania na naelewa kuwa una utata mkubwa, Umetawaliwa na mizengwe!

Na wananchi wa pande zote mbili wana malalamiko ya msingi, lakini inaonekana kuna siri kubwa sana ya Muungano huu ambayo Viongozi wa CCM wanaijua lakini sisi wengi hatuielewi.

Wazanzibari juu ya kuitwa midebwedo ukweli wenyewe ni kuwa si watu waongo wa nafsi zao.
Hili la harakati za kudai haki halitarudi nyuma lakini kwa kawaida yetu ni watu tunaofata utaratibu na ndio maana kauli nzito zote zinatolewa kwenye vyombo vya sheria. Tayari Zanzibar walishabadilisha vifungu vinavyotubana na tuna dai haki yetu kwa rasilimali zetu.
Wananchi tuko nyuma ya viongozi na watakaposhindwa basi hapo ndio nguvu ya umma itakapotumika.
Wanaoibeza Zanzibar wangejiuliza nini Mapinduzi ya 1964 na wangeuliza nini mchango wa Wazanzibari kule Uganda!

 

[Kimbunga]

Mkuu.
Hapa angalia kama utashindwa kuiona.

And the said Parliament and Executive shall have exclusive authority in such matters throughout and for the purposes of the united Republic and in addition exclusive authority in respect of all other matters in and for Tanganyika.
(v) The existing laws of Tanganyika and of Zanzibar shall remain in force in their respective territories subject-
(a) to any provision made hereafter by a competent legislature;
(b) to such provision as may be made by order of the President of the united Republic for the extension to Zanzibar of any law relating to any of the matters set out in Article (iv), and the revocation of any corresponding law of Zanzibar;

Mkuu.

Nimefurahi kusikia umenielewa.
Sheria za nchi zinatumika wapi?
Ukisoma hapo penye rangi nyekundu inasema in their respective territories. Territory ya Tanganyika ni ipi kama sio Tanganyika yenyewe?

Lakini hapo nimeweka rangi buluu, ndio unaweza kupata "mchawi" wa madudu yaliyotokea baadae, hata hivyo makosa yalifanyika na waliofanya makosa hayo tunawajua lakini tumekuwa woga kuwataja. mimi kama utapitia michangu yangu humu nimewaonesha.
Mkuu. mimi sizijadili mada hapa kwa ushabiki wala kuvutia upande wowote. napenda kuangalia kitu kama third party.

Mkuu.
Viongozi wetu hata hawa waliopo madarakani leo nao pia ni wababaishaji. Kwa nini hawauweki hadharani mkataba wa muungano? Ule ambao umewekwa sahihi na Nyerere na Karume.

Hizi The Articles zimewekwa humu JF kopi ile iliyofanyiwa ratification na Bunge la Tanganyika.
Na hapa ndipo linakuja suali gumu...katika nchi yenye bunge ni nani ana mamlaka ya kuifuta nchi? au kuibadilisha jina?
Sasa lini bunge la Tanganyika liliifuta Tanganyika? Je ipo sheria iliyoifuta Tanganyika na kuelekeza jina Tanganyika iwe marufuku kutumika?
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................
Matatizo ya Nafsi.

Mkuu, ukiisoma hiyo The Articles na ukiisikiliza kwa makini hii hotuba utaelewa matatizo ya Muungano yalianzia wapi.

Mkuu, nani aliitaayarisha,aliandika The Articles? Kwa maana ya aliyeiweka katika lugha ya kufunika mambo? This was really "changa la macho".

Sawa naona mjadala ni mrefu. Lakini sasa kama kuna executive Tanganyika basi head of the Government of Tanganyika ni nani?

 

[Nonda]

Sawa naona mjadala ni mrefu. Lakini sasa kama kuna executive Tanganyika basi head of the Government of Tanganyika ni nani?

Mkuu.
Kwanza ulikuwa uniambie kuwa umeiona Tanganyika au hukuiona.

Lakini kama ulikisoma na kukielewa kipande nilichokileta hapa basi mkuu usingeibuka na suali unaloliuliza sasa.

Niruhusu nikurudishe nyuma kidogo. historia.
Nani alikuwa rais wa Tanganyika ulipoundwa muungano?
Nani au chombo kipi kili-dissolve serikali ya Tanganyika(executive), bunge(legislature)....as far as I checked, hakuna sehemu, sheria inayovifuta vyombo hivi.

Alilofanya mwalimu na serikali ya Tanganyika kwa ujumla ni kutoa uwakala kwa serikali ya muungano kufanya kazi za serikali ya Tanganyika. Mkuu katika mfumo wa kisheria mtoa "power of attoney" huwa bado ana-exist, sio kuwa huwa amekufa na hivyo ndivyo ilivyokuwa na ndivyo ilivyo hadi hii leo.

Ukitaka kuhakikisha hilo, ni kuwepo kwa mambo ya Tanganyika katika bunge na Serikali ya Muungano inaendesha wizara ambazo si za Muungano, inaendesha wizara hizi kwa "power of attoney" iliyopewa na serikali ya Tanganyika.

Kwa kipindi ambacho Nyerere alikuwa rais wa muungano basi pia alikuwa ni rais wa Tanganyika. Dhana ya kuvaa kofia mbili haikuanza jana.

Kwa hiyo, katika muundo ambao mwalimu aliuamua wa muungano, muungano wa baadhi ya mambo na kwa baadhi ya mambo kutoungana, Rais wa serikali ya muungano ndie huyo huyo rais wa Tanganyika.

Natumai nimechangia. inawezekana hutaridhika na mchango huu lakini sote tunakubali kuwa huu muungano ni utata mtupu na umeshapitwa na wakati. ni vizuri ukijadiliwa tena na wabia wa muungano huu.

hapo juu kuna link ya kijarida, Shirikisho ndani ya shirikishi, ukipata muda kisome.
Ona ukurasa wa 26. ipo post # 133 na hapa chini ni sehemu ya The articles.

(iii) During the interim period the Constitution of the united Republic shall be the Constitution of Tanganyika so modified as to provide for-
(a) a separate legislature and executive in and for Zanzibar from time to time constituted in accordance with the existing law of Zanzibar and having exclusive authority within Zanzibar for matters other than those reserved to the Parliament and Executive of the united Republic;
(b) the offices of two Vice-Presidents one of whom (being. a person normally resident in Zanzibar) shall be the head of the aforesaid executive in and for Zanzibar and shall be the principal assistant of the President of the United Republic in the discharge of his executive functions in relation to Zanzibar;
(c) the representation of Zanzibar in the Parliament of the United Republic;
(d) such other matters! as may be expedient or desirable to give effect to the united Republic and to these Articles.
(iv) There shall reserved to the Parliament and Executive of the united Republic the following matters-
(a) The Constitution and Government of the united Republic.
And the said Parliament and Executive shall have exclusive authority in such matters throughout and for the purposes of the united Republic and in addition exclusive authority in respect of all other matters in and for Tanganyika.
(v) The existing laws of Tanganyika and of Zanzibar shall remain in force in their respective territories subject-
(a) to any provision made hereafter by a competent legislature;

 

[JokaKuu]

Nonda,

..hivi kwanini Zanzibar hamjitoi katika muungano?

..kwanini mnaishia ktk vitu vidogo vidogo[symbolic] kama bendera, wimbo wa taifa, mafuta etc etc?

..huku Tanganyika muungano hauna athari kubwa za kutufanya tuuchukie kama wa-Zanzibari mnavyodai munauchukia. katika nyakati tofauti Tanganyika imewahi kuhifadhi wakimbizi wanaozidi nusu ya idadi ya wa-Zanzibari wote.

..wa-Zanzibari mlikuwa na nafasi ya kuitisha kura ya maoni ya muungano sambamba na kura ya maoni ya kuunda serikali ya umoja wa kitaifa lakini hamkufanya hivyo. hata sasa hizi baada ya kuungana inaelekea wa-Zanzibar hamna mpango wowote ule wa kuitisha kura ya maoni kama muungano uwepo ama la.

 

[Nonda]

Nonda,

..hivi kwanini Zanzibar hamjitoi katika muungano?

..kwanini mnaishia ktk vitu vidogo vidogo[symbolic] kama bendera, wimbo wa taifa, mafuta etc etc?

..huku Tanganyika muungano hauna athari kubwa za kutufanya tuuchukie kama wa-Zanzibari mnavyodai munauchukia. katika nyakati tofauti Tanganyika imewahi kuhifadhi wakimbizi wanaozidi nusu ya idadi ya wa-Zanzibari wote.

..wa-Zanzibari mlikuwa na nafasi ya kuitisha kura ya maoni ya muungano sambamba na kura ya maoni ya kuunda serikali ya umoja wa kitaifa lakini hamkufanya hivyo. hata sasa hizi baada ya kuungana inaelekea wa-Zanzibar hamna mpango wowote ule wa kuitisha kura ya maoni kama muungano uwepo ama la.

JokaKuu,

why you use this" you are with us or with them"?

Wengine kwa sababu tu ya kutofautiana kimtizamo, tayari wanasema Nonda ni mpemba, mwarabu wa Ilala, msomali au mburundi.
https://www.jamiiforums.com/jukwaa-...ni-kupitia-african-union-a-u.html#post1825261

JokaKuu, Lipumba ni mzanzibari? kwa mantiki hii ya ....hamkufanya, hamna?
Dr. Slaa alisema nini kuhusu wazanzibari na mafuta yao? Je na yeye aligeuka kuwa Mzanzibari?

Mkuu, tutofautiane bila kulazimishana kushabikia upande fulani. wewe umechagua kuwa mshabiki, mimi naelezea ufahamu wangu wa muungano na ushahidi ninaouona katika maandishi.

Soma kitabu cha prof, Shivji juu ya Muungano.
Project MUSE - Africa Today - Pan-Africanism or Pragmatism? Lessons of Tanganyika-Zanzibar Union (review)

katika sehemu moja anasema kuwa kwa kila jambo moja la muungano linapoongezeka maana yake ni less power to the Zanzibar Gvt....Je yeye pia kwa kusema ukweli huu atastahili kuitwa Mzanzibari?

 

[Mkira]

Hata uwiano CCM hawaujui hivi kweli watu 43 mil Tanganyika na wazeji less than 2 mil.
Halafu unaunda kamati yenye idadi sawa tanganyika na zanzibar.

OLE WENU MUUNGANO HUU UTAKUFA TU si lazima kwa sasa pawepo na muumngano,
kwa kuwa ukweli ni kwamba


Those who are the most beneficiaries of Muungano ndio wanukuwa the most complainers!

Maajabu duniani!
Ninatabiri na hakiaka ukiwauliza wazanzibar ukawa serious kuwa mnataka muungano au la huwezi amini ikiwa srious hutasikia mzanzibar hata mmoja anaukataa muungano labda ....

 

[Mtu wa Pwani]

Hata uwiano CCM hawaujui hivi kweli watu 43 mil Tanganyika na wazeji less than 2 mil.
Halafu unaunda kamati yenye idadi sawa tanganyika na zanzibar.

OLE WENU MUUNGANO HUU UTAKUFA TU si lazima kwa sasa pawepo na muumngano,
kwa kuwa ukweli ni kwamba


Those who are the most beneficiaries of Muungano ndio wanukuwa the most complainers!

Maajabu duniani!
Ninatabiri na hakiaka ukiwauliza wazanzibar ukawa serious kuwa mnataka muungano au la huwezi amini ikiwa srious hutasikia mzanzibar hata mmoja anaukataa muungano labda ....

pole mwenzetu, kwa maneno ya zanzibar tunasema umechelewa kibweni kwa kuitaka mtoni.

wazanzibar siku zote hawatayumba juu ya kile wanachokiamini, kuminywa na nguvu zinazotumika kuwatisha zamani waliogopa, na mbinu ya wagawe uwatawale ambayo ilikuwa ikitumika ndio iliochelewesha moto huu

ila kwa sasa hakuna la kuwarejesha nyuma. na weshang'amua janja ya nyani, kazi mnao mtapayukwa sana mwaka

na tukuimbieni

zee la nyeti wacha kupiga misere
yamekushinda wache wajilie vya wenyewe

 

[Makaimati]

Zanzibar haikuungana na Tanganyika bali Tanganyika "iliivamia" Zanzibar na ndio maana kila siku tunajadili kero ambazo hazitaisha kamwe.

Muungano umefika mpaka hivi ulivyo kutokana na matumizi ya nguvu za Dola za Tanganyika. Kila kukicha, kwa kusingizia kuimarisha Muungano, Zanzibar imekuwa ikipokwa madaraka yake na kufanywa tegemezi kwa Tanganyika.

Kwa ujanja wa Nyerere na ubinafsi wa viongozi fulani wa CCM wa Zanzibar, Zanzibar imedumazwa kabisa.

Hayo uliotaja kuwa ni vitu vidogo vidogo ndio mwanzo wa kujipapatua kutoka kwa mkoloni Tanganyika na gurudumu hili halisimami tena.

Kwa kuing'ang'ania Zanzibar, inaonyesha dhahir kuwa Tanganyika inaihitaji zaidi Zanzibar kuliko otherwise.

Wazanzibari sasa wameamka na Zanzibar will rise again.

 

[Makaimati]

Hio kutumia Tanzania Mainland na Tanzania Zanzibar ni muendelezo wa ujanja wa kuimeza Zanzibar kabisa. Mimi nawashangaa hata Wazanzibari wanaotaka kujadili Mswada wa Katiba ya Muungano wakati la kufanya ni kujadili Katiba yetu ya Zanzibar.

Kujadili Katiba ya Muungano ni kuuhalalisha Muungano wenyewe ambao kwetu wengi tunaona ni kiinimacho cha watawala kuisambaratisha Zanzibar.

Nonda ndugu yangu, sahau kuhusu serikali moja, the worst it can get to be ni serikali tatu lakini la msingi kila mtu na lake na kama ni federal government hilo ni baadae.

Kwamba Muungano una utata wala halitaki mjadala maana hata muasisi wake aliona hivyo hivyo:

"Without any question, the manner and the implications of the union between Tanganyika and Zanzibar is the most misunderstood aspect of Tanzania's political development. It may not matter very much when foreigners get confused, but unfortunately there are many times when Tanzanians themselves appear to misunderstand it."

Former Tanzanian President Julius Nyerere. - Dar es Salaam Government Printer, July 1970. p. 3.

Kuhusu Dr. Shein tuwaulize nyinyi mliomleta lakini sisi tunajua tunachokitaka.

GNU mpaka sasa ni ya CCM lakini nayo haina muda kubadilika kuwa ni ya Wazanzibari (fuatilia mjadala wa jana Bwawani Hotel na ukishindwa ntakutumia clips)

Siri iliopo ni kubwa lakini sisi tumeitambua - kuimeza Zanzibar na kuifuta kwenye ramani ya dunia.

OVER OUR DEAD BODIES

 

[Makaimati]

Kwamba sisi ni beneficiaries hayo ni mawazo yako peke yako Mkira, sisi ni wadhulumiwa wakubwa katika hii set up.

Hio Kamati ndio imeundwa kwa kuzingatia uwiano sawa kabisa kwa sababu Zanzibar ni partner katika huu Muungano na sio Mkoa kama mnavyofikiria wengi

Kuvunjika kwa huu "Muungano" ndio hasa haja yetu na waulize Wazanzibari uwasikie maoni yao ya kweli.

 

[Kimbunga]

Hapa unaongelea nchi tofauti tofauti (sovereign states) lakini baada ya huo Muungano nchi mbili zilikufa ila kakaundwa kainchi ambako siyo sovereign state (Zanzibar) na kukawa na Sovereignty state yaani Tanzania. Ndio maana hakuna Tanganyika, sasa idadi sawa inatoka wapi wakati tuna Tanzania ambayo ni yetu sote? Huu muungano utata mtupu na chokochoko zinaanzia hapo hapo kwenye idadi sawa!! KWA ZANZIBAR CHAO CHAO CHETU CHAO, alaaa, nani akubali?

Mkuu.
Kwanza ulikuwa uniambie kuwa umeiona Tanganyika au hukuiona.

Lakini kama ulikisoma na kukielewa kipande nilichokileta hapa basi mkuu usingeibuka na suali unaloliuliza sasa.

Niruhusu nikurudishe nyuma kidogo. historia.
Nani alikuwa rais wa Tanganyika ulipoundwa muungano?
Nani au chombo kipi kili-dissolve serikali ya Tanganyika(executive), bunge(legislature)....as far as I checked, hakuna sehemu, sheria inayovifuta vyombo hivi.

Alilofanya mwalimu na serikali ya Tanganyika kwa ujumla ni kutoa uwakala kwa serikali ya muungano kufanya kazi za serikali ya Tanganyika. Mkuu katika mfumo wa kisheria mtoa "power of attoney" huwa bado ana-exist, sio kuwa huwa amekufa na hivyo ndivyo ilivyokuwa na ndivyo ilivyo hadi hii leo.

Ukitaka kuhakikisha hilo, ni kuwepo kwa mambo ya Tanganyika katika bunge na Serikali ya Muungano inaendesha wizara ambazo si za Muungano, inaendesha wizara hizi kwa "power of attoney" iliyopewa na serikali ya Tanganyika.

Kwa kipindi ambacho Nyerere alikuwa rais wa muungano basi pia alikuwa ni rais wa Tanganyika. Dhana ya kuvaa kofia mbili haikuanza jana.

Kwa hiyo, katika muundo ambao mwalimu aliuamua wa muungano, muungano wa baadhi ya mambo na kwa baadhi ya mambo kutoungana, Rais wa serikali ya muungano ndie huyo huyo rais wa Tanganyika.

Natumai nimechangia. inawezekana hutaridhika na mchango huu lakini sote tunakubali kuwa huu muungano ni utata mtupu na umeshapitwa na wakati. ni vizuri ukijadiliwa tena na wabia wa muungano huu.

hapo juu kuna link ya kijarida, Shirikisho ndani ya shirikishi, ukipata muda kisome.
Ona ukurasa wa 26. ipo post # 133 na hapa chini ni sehemu ya The articles.

(iii) During the interim period the Constitution of the united Republic shall be the Constitution of Tanganyika so modified as to provide for-
(a) a separate legislature and executive in and for Zanzibar from time to time constituted in accordance with the existing law of Zanzibar and having exclusive authority within Zanzibar for matters other than those reserved to the Parliament and Executive of the united Republic;
(b) the offices of two Vice-Presidents one of whom (being. a person normally resident in Zanzibar) shall be the head of the aforesaid executive in and for Zanzibar and shall be the principal assistant of the President of the United Republic in the discharge of his executive functions in relation to Zanzibar;
(c) the representation of Zanzibar in the Parliament of the United Republic;
(d) such other matters! as may be expedient or desirable to give effect to the united Republic and to these Articles.
(iv) There shall reserved to the Parliament and Executive of the united Republic the following matters-
(a) The Constitution and Government of the united Republic.
And the said Parliament and Executive shall have exclusive authority in such matters throughout and for the purposes of the united Republic and in addition exclusive authority in respect of all other matters in and for Tanganyika.
(v) The existing laws of Tanganyika and of Zanzibar shall remain in force in their respective territories subject-
(a) to any provision made hereafter by a competent legislature;

Nonda kwa kweli mimi siioni Tanganyika. Hiyo power of Attorney labda alipewa Nyerere as a natural person and not a legal person. Hayo mambo yasiyo ya Muungano ambayo unasema ni ya TAnganyika yanaamuliwa na Bunge gani au na Baraza gani la Mawaziri? Mbona wakati wa kujadili hotuba za Wizara ambazo si za muungano wabunge toka Zanzibar hawatoki nje ili mambo yasiyo ya muungano yajadiliwe na Watanganyika peke yao? Huwa nashangaa ati wabunge toka Zanzibar wanakuwa kwenye kamati za Bunge za Nishati na Madini, Utalii, Ujenzi na Miundombinu na wanapiga kelele kwelikweli wakati haya Mambo si ya Muungano kwa Mujibu wa Katiba. Ni bora wasingekuwa wanashiriki katika mambo hayo ningeamini kuwa japo kwa mbaaali Watanganyika wanaaamua mambo yao kivyao, lakini loooo Wazanbibar Baraza la Wawakilishi LAO Bunge la Muungano LAO imekaaaje? Paomoja na hayo mchakato wa Kutunga Katiba Mpya/Kurekebisha Katiba unatupa nafasi mujarabu ya kuuangalia Muungano wetu kwa jicho la pili ili tuachane na mazonge yanayouzunguka huu Muungano ambao kwangu ni tata.