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Manchester United (0) v Marseille (0), Champions League last-16 second leg, 7.45pm Tuesday 15 March

Marseille's 5ft 4in Mathieu Valbuena could be big at Manchester United

Fit-again midfielder could be key to Marseille's success in Champions League clash at Old Trafford




  • Paul Doyle
  • The Observer, Sunday 13 March 2011 <li class="history">Article history Marseille's Mathieu Valbuena, here in action in the 2-0 win at Rennes, will be eager to have a similar impact at Manchester United in the second leg of their Champions League last-16 tie. Photograph: Stéphane Mahe/Reuters In the 79th minute of Marseille's match at Rennes on Friday, the visiting team's 19-year-old forward, Jordan Ayew, broke down in tears. Was he injured? Did someone call him a nasty name? No, he had just teed up the goal that put his team 2-0 up against the team who were second in Ligue 1 on goal difference and he was crying with relief.
    He had wasted a glaring chance earlier in the game, as he has done on several occasions this season during his intermittent appearances from the bench, so he was thankful he had been able to atone and play an important part in a victory that keeps alive Marseille's hopes of retaining the title they won last season for the first time since Ayew's father, Abedi Pelé, was one of the team's stars.
    Ayew's redemption came amid a collective show of defiance from Marseille that will have alarmed at least one Scottish spectator in the Stade de la Route de Lorient &#8211; Sir Alex Ferguson, whose side must beat the French champions at Old Trafford on Tuesday to reach the Champions League quarter-finals.
    Ferguson may have noted that rumours of Marseille's demise seem to have been exaggerated. The Rennes game had been identified by many as the one in which their faltering season would definitively unravel. They went into it under intense pressure. Not only had they been outplayed and beaten at home the previous week by the league leaders, Lille, but the camp was then beset by scandal: on Tuesday, Brandão, the striker who lined up against United in the first leg, was arrested on suspicion of rape. After being held in custody for two nights, Brandão was allowed to return home to Brazil pending further action and the club have said he may not play for them again.
    The allegations against Brandão, and the media frenzy that followed, exacerbated an already tense atmosphere. Rennes, who went into Friday's game on the back of a five-match winning streak, were tipped to take advantage. Instead, Marseille twice pierced the best defence in Ligue 1 during a performance that convinced their manager that, although the team remains imperfect, they truly have the stuff of champions.
    "Many people said we would collapse, but we're still here, with our qualities and our flaws," said a beaming Didier Deschamps (right). It seems that, instead of taking on a team in crisis, United will meet a side undergoing a renaissance.
    Or perhaps not. It really is difficult to know with this Marseille team. The most obvious of the flaws Deschamps mentioned were the lack of cohesion and the sloppy passing his team displayed in the first 20 minutes at Rennes, a recurring theme of the campaign. However, once Loïc Rémy put them in front, Marseille flaunted their qualities.
    André Ayew, Jordan's older brother and one of the few consistent Marseille performers this season, dazzled on the wing; Lucho González, the Argentinian playmaker who shone last season but has struggled this term, began to find his passing range; and Deschamps's tactical rejigging in response to recent poor form worked. The manager moved Gabriel Heinze from left-back, where his lack of pace was being exposed, to the centre of defence, reintroducing Taye Taiwo on the left &#8211; and the Nigerian's enterprise going forward lends an extra dimension to Marseille's attack.
    The other consequence of Heinze's relocation was that the erstwhile centre-back, Stéphane Mbia, was redeployed as a holding midfielder. Marseille had been overrun in midfield too frequently recently; Mbia seems to have solved the problem.
    But perhaps the most significant development at Rennes was that Mathieu Valbuena returned to action without a hitch. The attacking midfielder featured only in the last seven minutes, but suffered no adverse reaction to the knee injury that had afflicted him for the previous six weeks, so he should start on Tuesday.
    Valbuena is only 5ft 4in and, as a teenager, was released by Bordeaux on the grounds that he was too small to make it as a professional. But after making peace with Deschamps, who had initially made it clear the pet of the previous manager had no place in his plans, Valbuena became a key part of Marseille's title-winning team and one of the few champions to excel consistently this term, until his injury. He provides most of the artistry to a team built primarily to be solid. "We need to be daring in Manchester, you can't achieve anything if you don't show adventure," he declared ahead of Tuesday's match.
    Deschamps is unlikely to be so bold, but it may not be a shock if Valbuena has the last word. He does, after all, have previous in England: he scored a sumptuous winner for Marseille against Liverpool at Anfield in 2007, and, last November, was the choreographer as France led Fabio Capello's stiffs a merry dance at Wembley.
    Only fit enough to appear fleetingly as a substitute against United in the first leg, Valbuena islikely to start wide on the right at Old Trafford, and work his way infield, all mesmeric dribbles and cute passes. He may be small, but he tends to stand out.

 
Manchester United (0) v Marseille (0), Champions League last-16 second leg, 7.45pm Tuesday 15 March

Marseille's 5ft 4in Mathieu Valbuena could be big at Manchester United

Fit-again midfielder could be key to Marseille's success in Champions League clash at Old Trafford




  • Paul Doyle
  • The Observer, Sunday 13 March 2011 <li class="history">Article history Marseille's Mathieu Valbuena, here in action in the 2-0 win at Rennes, will be eager to have a similar impact at Manchester United in the second leg of their Champions League last-16 tie. Photograph: Stéphane Mahe/Reuters In the 79th minute of Marseille's match at Rennes on Friday, the visiting team's 19-year-old forward, Jordan Ayew, broke down in tears. Was he injured? Did someone call him a nasty name? No, he had just teed up the goal that put his team 2-0 up against the team who were second in Ligue 1 on goal difference and he was crying with relief.
    He had wasted a glaring chance earlier in the game, as he has done on several occasions this season during his intermittent appearances from the bench, so he was thankful he had been able to atone and play an important part in a victory that keeps alive Marseille's hopes of retaining the title they won last season for the first time since Ayew's father, Abedi Pelé, was one of the team's stars.
    Ayew's redemption came amid a collective show of defiance from Marseille that will have alarmed at least one Scottish spectator in the Stade de la Route de Lorient – Sir Alex Ferguson, whose side must beat the French champions at Old Trafford on Tuesday to reach the Champions League quarter-finals.
    Ferguson may have noted that rumours of Marseille's demise seem to have been exaggerated. The Rennes game had been identified by many as the one in which their faltering season would definitively unravel. They went into it under intense pressure. Not only had they been outplayed and beaten at home the previous week by the league leaders, Lille, but the camp was then beset by scandal: on Tuesday, Brandão, the striker who lined up against United in the first leg, was arrested on suspicion of rape. After being held in custody for two nights, Brandão was allowed to return home to Brazil pending further action and the club have said he may not play for them again.
    The allegations against Brandão, and the media frenzy that followed, exacerbated an already tense atmosphere. Rennes, who went into Friday's game on the back of a five-match winning streak, were tipped to take advantage. Instead, Marseille twice pierced the best defence in Ligue 1 during a performance that convinced their manager that, although the team remains imperfect, they truly have the stuff of champions.
    "Many people said we would collapse, but we're still here, with our qualities and our flaws," said a beaming Didier Deschamps (right). It seems that, instead of taking on a team in crisis, United will meet a side undergoing a renaissance.
    Or perhaps not. It really is difficult to know with this Marseille team. The most obvious of the flaws Deschamps mentioned were the lack of cohesion and the sloppy passing his team displayed in the first 20 minutes at Rennes, a recurring theme of the campaign. However, once Loïc Rémy put them in front, Marseille flaunted their qualities.
    André Ayew, Jordan's older brother and one of the few consistent Marseille performers this season, dazzled on the wing; Lucho González, the Argentinian playmaker who shone last season but has struggled this term, began to find his passing range; and Deschamps's tactical rejigging in response to recent poor form worked. The manager moved Gabriel Heinze from left-back, where his lack of pace was being exposed, to the centre of defence, reintroducing Taye Taiwo on the left – and the Nigerian's enterprise going forward lends an extra dimension to Marseille's attack.
    The other consequence of Heinze's relocation was that the erstwhile centre-back, Stéphane Mbia, was redeployed as a holding midfielder. Marseille had been overrun in midfield too frequently recently; Mbia seems to have solved the problem.
    But perhaps the most significant development at Rennes was that Mathieu Valbuena returned to action without a hitch. The attacking midfielder featured only in the last seven minutes, but suffered no adverse reaction to the knee injury that had afflicted him for the previous six weeks, so he should start on Tuesday.
    Valbuena is only 5ft 4in and, as a teenager, was released by Bordeaux on the grounds that he was too small to make it as a professional. But after making peace with Deschamps, who had initially made it clear the pet of the previous manager had no place in his plans, Valbuena became a key part of Marseille's title-winning team and one of the few champions to excel consistently this term, until his injury. He provides most of the artistry to a team built primarily to be solid. "We need to be daring in Manchester, you can't achieve anything if you don't show adventure," he declared ahead of Tuesday's match.
    Deschamps is unlikely to be so bold, but it may not be a shock if Valbuena has the last word. He does, after all, have previous in England: he scored a sumptuous winner for Marseille against Liverpool at Anfield in 2007, and, last November, was the choreographer as France led Fabio Capello's stiffs a merry dance at Wembley.
    Only fit enough to appear fleetingly as a substitute against United in the first leg, Valbuena islikely to start wide on the right at Old Trafford, and work his way infield, all mesmeric dribbles and cute passes. He may be small, but he tends to stand out.
 
Manchester United's Wayne Rooney sucks Arsenal into vortex of despair

A third cup exit in two weeks leaves Arsène Wenger's side with only the Premier League to play for



  • Arsenal's Bacary Sagna looks on as Manchester United's Darron Gibson controls the ball during the FA Cup match at Old Trafford. Photograph: Clive Mason/Getty Images "Something has gone in us, not in our attitude, but in our confidence," Arsène Wenger said, thinking back to Tuesday night's Champions League defeat in Barcelona, and groping for explanations after yet another letdown. The question now: how many disappointments can a team take before they lose their faith?
    The most optimistic spin on Arsenal crashing out of three competitions in 13 days is that it leaves them free to win the Premier League for the first time since 2004. But to think that way the dedicated Gunner will have to ignore the psychological fallout and disregard the signs that say Arsenal no longer believe they can win big games, however hard they try.
    "I believe that subconsciously the disappointment of Tuesday night has played a part in today's game," Wenger said. As ever he faced the music, took the questions. He asks us now to believe these setbacks can be overcome, the damage repaired. In London, Barcelona and now Manchester chunks of Arsenal's season lay strewn around.
    Sunday 1 May should tell us. On that day United motor to the Emirates for a game that provides a chance for both sides to land an uppercut. Wenger said: "I believe it will strengthen our resolve at home, and if the Man United game is decisive I believe we can win it with our home games."
    These are strong declarations, from a tough manager, but they conflict with our sense of what is happening. With Wayne Rooney's headed goal just after the interval, Arsenal's campaign just seemed to evaporate. All around Old Trafford you could feel a thing of promise turn to savage disillusionment.
    The vortex has been particularly merciless. First they lost the Carling Cup final to Birmingham City after a late defensive howler (praise is due to Birmingham, too), then came Barcelona in the Champions League and the night of a thousand agonies.
    Against that background a trip to Manchester United for a FA Cup sixth-round tie might have felt like falling into the arms of an old enemy who you respect and loathe in equal measure: a cosy domestic arrangement, especially as United were bound to field a weakened side, with Tuesday's Champions League second leg against Marseille so close. It must have felt like a bit of a refuge, where the dream of a Premier League-FA Cup Double could be revived, and the unpleasant memories of Wembley and the Camp Nou fed through the mental shredder.
    Battered by recent disappointments, the two imperial powers were in regrouping mode. United were ahead after 28 minutes through Fábio da Silva and extended that lead with Rooney's close-range header. "Efficient", Wenger called them. Edwin van der Sar, in the United goal, was much better than that. He was majestic.
    Telepathy has always been a feature of the best football teams, but just to be sure Manchester United used twins to achieve their breakthrough. Rafael and Fábio, mirror images on either wing, worked with one mind to concoct the opening goal in a game in which 11 of the 20 outfield starters were defenders.
    If full-backs can attack like this, who needs wingers? In a United side of seven defenders Rafael da Silva filled the David Beckham/Cristiano Ronaldo berth on the right and Fábio took the role so often filled by Ryan Giggs. On the teamsheet it looked a patching-up exercise. But then Fábio worked an opening on the right, Rooney crossed beautifully, Javier Hernández headed hard and low and Manuel Almunia palmed his save into Fábio's path.
    With his work complete Fábio gave way at half-time to the returning Antonio Valencia, the kind of tough, thrusting player United will need to arrest a run of three defeats in five league games. Giggs, too, was summoned to relieve a Da Silva twin, this time Rafael. A familiar scenario kicked in: Arsenal working the ball and pressing outside United's box, the home team waiting for the breakout. "Sterile domination?" There were certainly a lot of Arsenal passes. And they all came to nought.
    Desperate, Wenger sent on Tomas Rosicky and Aaron Ramsey for Abou Diaby and Andrey Arshavin. Marouane Chamakh had already replaced Denílson. With so much attacking talent in yellow the mind span back to Holland finishing a qualifier against the Republic of Ireland with four centre-forwards and still coming up empty.
    The final anguish for Arsenal was to see one of their most improved defenders, Johan Djourou, removed by stretcher. His season is over. No inquest on Arsenal's season can begin until the Premier League trophy is handed over. To win the championship would heal the pain of the last fortnight instantly. As a snap judgment we can say they lack only a few buyable ingredients for success at home and abroad, though one is mental rigour. They are where they have been since 2005: close.
    These two teams will stay locked together in the title race. Neither looks equipped to burn the other off. United advance on three fronts, Arsenal are confined to one. All thought now can be telescoped into one ambition: the championship. Time to stop reaching. Time to grasp.


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    • Glovidge 12 March 2011 9:50PM

      Until Arsenal invest in two or three experienced players with some backbone this perennial crown of underachievement will forever loom over the Emirates.

    • trinder19 12 March 2011 10:01PM

      For goodness sake Arsene, buy a bloody goalscorer. You've got the money, the midfield and the allure to get whoever you want. Just do it man.

    • duncan23 12 March 2011 10:04PM

      Hat's off to Ferguson. The twins dashed about in the style of indoor kite-flying ruffians Thing One and Thing Two. Like twin turbo Park JS's their hunger and speed was aimed at the jugular of an understandably jaded Arsenal - who (along with their manager) deserve some understanding after their mid-week exploits.

    • DaleyHKS 12 March 2011 10:06PM

      I am not an Arsenal fan, but have always held Arsene Wenger in high regard, so I am surprised that I now find myself asking 'Has he taken Arsenal as far as he can?'
      PS - If he ever does leave Arsenal, I'd love him to manage England (or Darlo, for that matter!)

    • rustypooh 12 March 2011 10:07PM

      Looks like Milan to win Serie A... this will be Ibrahimovic's 7th (or 8th??) season as domestic title champion... hello Arsene...

    • BuffoBill 12 March 2011 10:07PM

      We should blame the referee for letting off Paul Scholes. . . . . .With 11 men, Arsenal would have won 6-2.

    • Fabregooner 12 March 2011 10:09PM

      It's true, he needs to get the chequebook out, but I am alone in thinking that Arsenal were again rather unlucky (I mean again vs Birmingham and more importantly Sunderland, not vs Barca) ? The Rooney goal could not have come at a worse time and then we went down to 10 men in the 80th minute ... and how was Scholes not sent off - some kind of miracle happened then - compare and contrast RVP against Barca). We are really going to suffer without the excellent Djourour too. A crappier night to be a Gooner I do not remember.

    • Vanderyid 12 March 2011 10:10PM

      The Guardian were running 6 or 7 blogs just 15 days ago, hearalding the gooners coming of age and speculating whether this squad was deep enough to pull of the quadruple.
      We laughed then and we laugh now. Vortex of despair sums it up nicely. Vortex of illusion would be spot-on.
      Arsenal should now win the league. Indeed both Fabregas and Nasri have stated that it's theirs, in their hands. Nasri says he can practically feel it. Which is exactly why he won't. Ever.
      For Utd the undeserved double, although a West Ham wembley win would be wicked. Chelsea 2nd. Arsenal 3rd and, maybe a point or two behind them the incredible CL winners Tottenham.
      Poor Arsenal - nothing left now but that continually deluded refrain that although she went home alone once more, she was still undoubtedly the prettiest girl at the party.

    • lilbuff 12 March 2011 10:14PM

      Trinder19- you seriously think Arsenal's problem is up front? It's been obvious for 2 or 3 seasons that the centre halves were a problem....Wenger has never addressed it properly, albeit Vermaelen's injury hasn't helped. He tried to cover, as always, on the cheap with Squillaci and Djourou, and it doesn't work. Every Arsenal fan will tell you the same thing, but Wenger still doesn't budge.
      And WTF is Denilson doing anywhere near a Champions League team? He is embarrassingly out of his depth, and adds nothing whatsoever. Ramsey would have been better, even when he only had one leg.

    • maxgreece 12 March 2011 10:15PM

      Just stunned by today. When I saw the United line up I thought - Ah well, looks like SAF isn't interested in the FA Cup at all, saving everything for the big cup.
      Then I saw the sub bench and thought- ah ha - he wants to get to half time at parity and then he'll bring on Giggs, Scholes and Berbatov to try to grab a late winner.
      As ever - I got it wrong.
      Quite a game too- it could have been 6-3 with different keepers.

    • shawshank 12 March 2011 10:17PM

      I recall Nasri talking some trash lately about United being scared of Arsenal. With a midfield of Fabio, Raphael, O'Shea, and Gibson, Fergie treated Arsenal like a non-league team. And the result justified Fergie's treatment.

    • libero88 12 March 2011 10:17PM

      Arsenal will be the German version of Bayer Neverkusen if they don't invest in new players. They need to get rid of some injury prone players like Van Persie, Rosicky & Djourou. They also need to get rid of Abou Diaby & Denilson. Sell Fabregas & buy 2 or 3 quality players with the money. They need a new goalkeeper. Arsenal has no spine. With the current squad, Arsenal will remain a Top Four Team. Perhaps it's time for a new coach who undoubtedly would invest in new players instead of Arsene persisting with his stupid philosophy. And please, don't buy any left footed player from Holland! Van Persie, Van der vart, Robben says it all!!!
      This article sums it up. A "weakened" Man Utd minus Ronaldo & Tevez is clinical.

    • miyahtallulah 12 March 2011 10:24PM

      Vanderyid.
      Spurs won't win the CL.
      Not a defensive master class, they were merely outplayed by an unlucky Milan.
      At best, they are like Man United in the early 90's. Dynamic, but naive.
      Barcelona would hammer them, Manu, Chelsea, Madrid - would, one suspects,
      cast them aside. Great potential though - IF they remain top 4.

    • 33holmes 12 March 2011 10:27PM

      The English know best. Get rid of that Frenchman. Arsenal haven't won trophies. Obviously they need a new manager. It's better to be mid table than right near the top, but not on top. It is too frustrating. And don't get me started on how they keep trying to pass the ball to each other. Where is plan B? And tough holding midfielders and defenders? Next thing ya know they will bring up injuries as an excuse. Get rid of the manager and just counter attack.

    • Debaser92 12 March 2011 10:28PM

      At Spurs we may not be as good as you yet - that doesn't stop us laughing our heads off at your results lately. I'm sure Squillaci at the back fills you with confidence.

    • Vanderyid 12 March 2011 10:30PM

      miyaht:
      of course Spurs will win the CL. The year ends in a 1. I've bet my mortgage on it.
      AHHH, maybe you're right. We've got a better chance than Arsenal though.

    • gorimapa 12 March 2011 10:34PM

      "...vortex of despair"
      Now the media would go all pounding us. And then hyping us when a few results go our way. The number of blogs devoted to Arsenal are incredulous. Still, it seems, we keep some journos in gainful employment!
      What Wenger needs to do is to:
      1. Get another quality goal-scorer. RVP never goes a season fit. We need someone with great technical ability who can deliver when he's not around.
      2. Get one or two quality midfielders that are....different...of various skills. We have strikers who are not exactly of the same mould but midfielders that are virtually similar. Practically all our MDs are central or favour central positions. Walcot, good as he is on the wings, is no winger. Park Ji Sung may not start every Man U game but there are certain matches he starts and excels in. We need a variety of styles.
      3. Get a defensive coach. We need to be more compact in the defence.
      4. Get the team watching endless reruns of various Barca games. Point out to them how the entire team work their assess off when they don't have the ball talkless of when they have it. Too many Arsenal players don't do enough when they don't have the ball. Mr Ashavin should take note of the work a certainly more gifted Messi does when not on the ball. Also, make the team work on their positioning.
      5. We may stick with Scenzy as number 1 'cos I like his confidence which, to me, both Fabianski and Alumnia don't have.
      6. If not for anything, keep Eboue. He may not play in many matches but he has always impressed me with the way he stands by the team and his comportment when we score or lose.
      7. Get rid: Diaby. Denilson. Roscicky. Good players they may be but they under-deliver more than often.
      8. If possible, start playing with two defensive midfielders, free Wilshere.

    • BankerBasher 12 March 2011 10:35PM

      Please stop this overhyping and overrating of Wayne "Tap-in" Rooney, it really is getting ridiculous and very embarrassing!! If he wasn't English no one would be talking about him!!
      His passing is poor (those ridiculous diagnol passes he makes ends up on row Z 99% of time!!); he can't even control a bag of cement, hence why he runs around so much like a headless chicken trying to retrieve balls; his shooting should come with a warning sign to people in the stand, airplanes, rockets, ufo, etcp; etc!!
      No one believes this overhyping and overrating by the pro-premiership and sky lobbyist of Wayne "Tap-in" Rooney - SO STOP THIS NOW!!

    • Silencee 12 March 2011 10:35PM

      The Da Silva twins are fantastic, great footballers and so it was lovely to see them play a little higher up the pitch.

    • JackChinaski 12 March 2011 10:40PM

      it's all a bit hysterical. they lost the final of a cup no-one especially cares about (would winning the league cup really satisfy the want for silverware, really?); went out of the Champions' League to arguably the best club side there has ever been; and lost an away cup-tie to the league leaders.
      the league title is still in their hands, and if they don't win it they won't be far off. hardly a catastrophe. they've had some rough luck and their manager's an ego-maniac - it won't always be so..
      wait until Spurs beat Barca to win the Champions' League - then we can talk about a crisis at Arsenal.

    • Bushman7 12 March 2011 10:41PM

      BankerBasher
      12 March 2011 10:35PM
      ​

      Please stop this overhyping and overrating of Wayne "Tap-in" Rooney
      ​
      I knew something was wrong with my TV, I was so sure it was someone else playing all those pretty passes...

    • Debaser92 12 March 2011 10:42PM

      Rooney's a great player. This season he's been off colour and off the field he clearly is as thick as apeshit - but he's a genuinely great footballer who I'm privileged to have watched. ****** who can't remember what they had for breakfast this morning might call him overrated, but I'd wager most fans would appreciate his quality in the last few years.

    • ttthomas 12 March 2011 10:44PM

      The problem with Wenger's philosophy is he wants the players to grow up together and then win things, but then when some of the players such as Flamini, Eduardo, Gallas, Toure, Ade, leave the club (Flamini and Eduardo actually set to win their leagues with their respective teams, the rest still involved in competitions the Gunners are OUT OF) they are replaced with twenty year olds--hence the veteran leadership NEVER arrives. The team has had many opportunities to win something during the six year drought, and less than thirty million quid in experience would have brought them some of that silverware. Wenger MUST find a way to integrate some experienced men into the squad and get rid of some of the dead weight. Imagine Rosicky replaced with Muller or Ozil. Imagine Diaby or Denilson replaced with De Jong. Imagine Chamakh replaced with Suarez. I'm an Arsenal fan but this perennial collapse happens every year, and it's because the team doesn't have a leader to WILL the rest of the players over the line. Wenger has accomplished a lot. It's arguably a harder task to keep a team in the top four than it is to win something. But the history books won't care if Arsenal remain in the top four for a hundred consecutive years. If they don't find a way to get over the line they will only be remembered for choking. Wenger needs to realize this. He knows how to fix it, and it would only take a slight adaptation in his philosophy--no more carrying players on the payroll for years waiting for them to come good. Wenger treats the players like children, like hiring a Richard Dunne for example would throw the team into disarray. He underestimates their will to win, and their disillusionment and coming up short year after year at his own peril.

    • DavidinPenarth 12 March 2011 10:52PM

      Rooney is still only playing at about 65% of his best but he set up one goal, scored another and generally ran the game for a half-strength Utd against an Arsenal team desperate to salvage their season.
      God help the rest of the league if he finds form!!
      ps Hernandez looks frighteningly good and Smalling is a year from being the best defender in England - United are in serious decline LOL
      pps Valencia looks as though he's never been away - so Utd have the best two wide men in the league

    • Infinity123 12 March 2011 10:52PM

      It's been a bad day, but is losing at old Trafford and the nou camp (the latter with ten men) really such a disaster? Particularly with half the first team out or walking wounded?
      Why not write an article about how injury is once again shreddig our season during a vital period? I know it might feel a little too much like actual, y'know, analysis but why not give it a whirl.
      Every arsenal fan I know is far, far less gutted about going out of the cup than potentially losing djorou for the rest of the season. His injury was the worst thing that happened to us today. With squad looking thin and the second string players continually failing to impress (Gibbs and Diaby were awful today) we're clearly not capable of competing on multiple fronts, but this latest injury leaves us relying on squillaci and almunia to bring home the title, and that just ain't gonna happen. In the same way that if utd had to play the rest of the season with brown and smalling at centre back and lindegaard (or whoever is their number three) in sticks they'd feel a bit uneasy.
      As for the headline.... Rooney wasn't in utd's top five performers today (I thought smalling was very impressive again, and worth an article), but I guess he must guarantee page impressions.

    • SeanBarry 12 March 2011 10:54PM

      For a split second there, my eyes plaid a trick on me, and I thought the title said "Wenger sucked Arsenal into a vortex of despair "
      Whether it was Rooney, or Wenger, makes no difference .
      Now!
      Worse case scenario for Arsenal.
      Unexpected Miracle, ( aren't they always) and Gunners snatch the title away from Man U.
      Arsene is then given a reprieve and stays till his contract expires 2014.
      Think about it Arsenal fans. That's another 3 years without anything to show for.
      SeanBarry.

    • Debaser92 12 March 2011 10:55PM

      Valencia looks as though he's never been away - so Utd have the best two wide men in the league
      ​
      Nani and Valencia? I'll take Bale and Lennon over those two every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    • duncan23 12 March 2011 10:56PM

      I'm certainly not convinced that Arsenal are out of the race for the title. In the past decade they've folded when ahead in the table. Currently they are chasing. Trouble is so much of the game is played in the head and they don't seem to have a strong mentality as a team.

    • duncan23 12 March 2011 10:58PM

      Nani and Valencia? I'll take Bale and Lennon over those two every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
      ​
      I'd actually take one of Nani or Valencia over Bale and Lennon.

    • mike65ie 12 March 2011 11:03PM

      Arsenal are rapidly turning into the biggest chokers in the game. I was hoping (and praying it must be said) that they'd at least pip Utd to the title and spare us the 19th gloating but nope I'd lay any money against them getting close.
      How can a team be so lacking balls, grit, brio or even undeserved luck in so many important games?. I'm beginning to think that all the special pleading by Wenger has finally rotted their soul. They won't fight for their manager or their self respect.

    • hdtvdaly 12 March 2011 11:05PM

      This article sums it up. A "weakened" Man Utd minus Ronaldo & Tevez is clinical
      ​
      Put together and multiplied by five they wouldn't add up to how weakened a side becomes post Roy Keane and United still managed to eventually return to the top.

    • ttthomas 12 March 2011 11:06PM

      I think Didier Deschamps contract is up with Marseilles after this season. He would be a great coach for Arsenal. Not as exciting, but he knows how to assemble a team that gets results. He would also get rid of Rosicky Eboue Denilson Chamakh Bendtner and all of the defenders except Vermaelen and maybe Djourou and all of the goalkeepers except Sczeszny.
      I fear if Wenger can't adapt his philosophy that ridiculous article that came out after the Carling Cup bungle "At This Rate Arsenal May Never Win Anything" will actually be accurate.

    • Vanderyid 12 March 2011 11:09PM

      I'd actually take one of Nani or Valencia over Bale and Lennon.
      ​
      You prove that football ius a game followed by the permenently deluded.
      BTW, is it true that Nani has a statue of himself carved in marble?

    • hdtvdaly 12 March 2011 11:11PM

      As for the headline.... Rooney wasn't in utd's top five performers today (I thought smalling was very impressive again, and worth an article), but I guess he must guarantee page impressions
      ​
      Yeah this Rooney is shit in opinions of those who count, forget Beckenbauer, Xavi, Messi, Pique, Baggio what would those mugs know about rating a player compared to Arsenal supporting bloggers with a heavy self loathing anglo-phobic bent.

    • jeffersdiaz 12 March 2011 11:12PM

      Arsene is then given a reprieve and stays till his contract expires 2014. Think about it Arsenal fans. That's another 3 years without anything to show for.
      so winning the league once in the next 4 years would be a bad thing?

    • ttthomas 12 March 2011 11:16PM

      I must add that Manure's midfield today was crap, and if the Gunners had had a true leader on the pitch today they would have beaten them handily, but they are so mentally destroyed right now that it's all effort with no verve, no confidence. Their only chance at this point is to pray for luck to get out of this death spiral. They need to go to West Brom and just start shooting. Forget the pass pass pass, they are so fried right now they will never score that way. But if they get a goal, a slice of luck, it may turn things around. Either that, or a fully committed Fabregas for the remaining games are the only things that can get the Gunners the title

    • ZuluTwenty 12 March 2011 11:17PM

      Can we have some kind of visual or audio screen alert when the match report blogis replaced by a comment thingie blog..?

    • jeffersdiaz 12 March 2011 11:22PM

      Yeah this Rooney is shit in opinions of those who count, forget Beckenbauer, Xavi, Messi, Pique, Baggio what would those mugs know about rating a player compared to Arsenal supporting bloggers with a heavy self loathing anglo-phobic bent
      Fortunatly the vast majority of football viewers are capable of forming their own opinions. Most of them have noted the lack of legendary performances that 'wazza' has put in for england to cement his position on the world stage.
      It's this that overcomes club rivalries and commands respect.
      Think Gazza , Beckham and Linker if you want a few of examples.
      Once wayne has stopped diving and swearing for the benefit of man u only and gives something the rest of us can enjoy he may find the respect you think he deserves.

    • ukgringo 12 March 2011 11:23PM

      Sooooo happy!
      I wish more of the UTD squad took a leaf out of the Twins book - their energy and determination was outstanding. Id rather play either instead of Carrick and Gibson any day of the week.
      Smalling, Chicharito, Valencia - all fantastic.


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Liverpool revival under Kenny Dalglish puts the heat on Alex Ferguson

Anfield resurgence suggests Liverpool will be a major force next season and can threaten United's dominance




  • Kenny Dalglish has brought a smile back to Liverpool faces and encouraged thoughts of a title challenge next season. Photograph: Julian Finney/Getty Images This time 12 months ago the nation was wearily, queasily familiar with the exact nature of the personal relationships within the Chelsea dressing room, so presumably Fernando Torres knows what he is saying when he claims the camaraderie and professionalism of his new employers compares favourably with the "chaos" he left behind at Liverpool.
    Anfield fans would appreciate a period of silence from their former favourite now. Torres made his point eloquently enough when he indicated he wanted to leave, yet he continues to disparage his previous club in public as if seeking to reassure himself that he made the right decision. "There are more personal relationships and jokes between the players at Chelsea than there were at Liverpool," Torres has said. "Everything was much more serious there. Here you don't have to prove you are a professional; it is assumed."
    Torres has a talent for comedy if he can say this stuff with a straight face and not even mention the Chelsea dressing room being relaxed enough to permit the occasional air rifle, though his allegation that Liverpool have no sense of humour does not ring true. Scousers generally do and, while there may not be enough of them in the first team at the moment to play up to the regional stereotype, Liverpool always seem a happy squad to the journalists who work in the room next door and can hear the singing that accompanies a win.
    Hurtful as his comments may be, at least Torres has a point of view and is not afraid to express it. In fact, he seems to be on a one-man crusade to promote plain speaking in football. "People aren't honest in the world of football," he said. "You can't say the truth or be clear with people. It's a business and nobody is anyone's friend."
    These top players do lead sheltered lives. Try to think of another type of business that works differently, or any other walk of life apart from football where a man of 26 can complain that nobody is his friend. That is what the world is like, Fernando, and most people are not paid £170,000 a week to help them deal with it. Perhaps Torres is trying to assuage doubts about whether he joined the right team or when he may start scoring again, unless he simply watched Luis Suárez taking Manchester United to pieces last week and felt a pang at seeing himself so adequately replaced. "I knew I was an idol for the fans but it wasn't the same any more," he said, as if trying to convince himself. "Liverpool needed time. I don't have that."
    Fair enough, though estimates of the amount of time Liverpool may need are falling with every performance under the only manager in the Premier League who looks happy in his work. The unmistakable Anfield resurgence has come too late to claim any of this season's domestic prizes but with a couple more signings over the summer and a permanent deal for their new/old manager – why delay the inevitable? – Liverpool could clearly be back among the contenders next time round.
    Coupled with United's recent stumbles to let Arsenal climb back into the title race and give even Chelsea hope that all may not be lost, that raises an interesting question. What happens if United do not win their 19th title this season? Sir Alex Ferguson is bound to retire or step aside at some point in the nearish future and for a long time it has been supposed that his final ambition is to complete his perch-clearing operation by taking his side past Liverpool's 18 titles, a monumental achievement considering the score was 16-7 to Merseyside when he arrived in Manchester.
    For most of the season United have appeared on course, even if they were taking a somewhat pedestrian route to the most glittering prize of all, but should they fall away again this year, what certainty is there of a 19th title next season or the season after that? By that stage Ferguson will be into his seventies and Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes will not be far behind him.
    Suppose Liverpool were to win the 19th title. The possibility may appear remote, given that Anfield has not seen a table-topping finish in over 20 years, yet if United and Chelsea are not what they were, you would have to give Liverpool a chance. Even now you would back Dalglish's Liverpool against Manchester City.
    Dalglish, of course, was the Liverpool manager when Ferguson came down from Aberdeen and, as his return has gone better than anyone could possibly have imagined, this already far-fetched story could still turn full circle. Put simply, if Fergie does not win the 19th title this year, he lets his oldest rival in with a chance of stealing his thunder. Just a chance, no more than that, but it is one more worry a 69-year-old does not need. Ferguson has even less time than Torres. He needs his players to put this season to bed.
    How to stop a Rooney-style bicycle kick in its tracks

    Wayne Rooney's spectacular overhead kick to settle the Manchester derby last month seems a safe bet for goal of the season but should it have been allowed?
    When Crawley Town's Matt Tubbs attempted the same thing on around the same spot at Old Trafford the following week he was penalised for dangerous play and when Manchester City's Mario Balotelli took to the air last week against Wigan he was brought back down to earth for the same reason. There were a couple of instances in the Champions League in midweek of players being stopped for foot up when the offending boot was only around shoulder height and the other one on or near the ground, so on that basis anyone executing an overhead bicycle kick ought to be pulled up every time.
    A few referees of the killjoy tendency maintain that any overhead kick is automatically dangerous play, though in reality it seems to depend on the proximity of opponents, particularly opponents' heads. The mistake City made when Nani's cross took a deflection to hang invitingly in the air behind Rooney was to stand back and admire his technique. No one got close enough to be in any danger, whereas with the Tubbs version Wes Brown stuck his head in and forced the referee to take a view. While no one wishes to see referees clamp down on acrobatic overhead volleys or outlaw one of the most thrilling ways in which it is possible to score, the message for defenders is clear. Stay with the ball, don't watch the man. It's up to you to make it dangerous.
    PS: It may hurt.

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    • Zabberdast 13 March 2011 12:35AM

      Torres hints that all is not well behind the scenes at Liverpool, so let's not get so giddy so quickly, eh?

    • meself1000 13 March 2011 12:42AM

      Liverpool to snatch no.19 from under Ferguson's purple nose? If only.......... if only. But us Optimistico's are never short of dream fodder so I'll back Suarez to cannon us to 19 before the mancs.

    • PDA1 13 March 2011 12:57AM

      i'm afraid I'm with MarcusFedix on this. In spite of the great performance vs. MU, the performance vs Braga (& WHU) was very poor. A couple of "good" signings during the summer may not disguise what seems to be a weak rotation. The defence is a leaky colander and it's a miracle that so many clean sheets have been achieved in recent weeks. Three defensive midfielders didn't stabilize things midweek, and left little imagination for attacking. We will have to do much better away from Anfield if we are to threaten even fourth place next season. Still, "hope springs eternal" as they say.

    • GiveTheDogABone 13 March 2011 1:11AM

      Paul Wilson is a crap Journalist.
      ​
      Says it all really.
      Liverpool lost awfully to West Ham and Braga, not to mention drawing at home to Wigan. To coin a phrase from the 'economic crisis', yes there are "green shoots of a recovery" appearing, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Liverpool are a long way off finishing 4th, let alone inside the top two again.

    • Peekon 13 March 2011 1:21AM

      WTF is going on with football journalism these days? Arsenal have gone from gutless bottlers to being the British Barca and back in the last month or so, Man U have gone from invincibles to mediocrities and now Liverpool are the predicted 2012 pl winners because they won a game against the current leaders?
      I tip Wolves for a surprise title win this year after their run against the top5. What? they're in the bottom 3?? That can't be right. It's against the journo-logic of predicting, prasing and slamming everything based exclusively on the last game they played
      This article has "if it happens, I can claim that you read it here first, if it doesn't everyone will forget how ridiculous it was" written all over it

    • dholliday 13 March 2011 1:24AM

      as his return has gone better than anyone could possibly have imagined, this already far-fetched story could still turn full circle.
      ​
      Woah, tiger! In which alternative universe are you watching Liverpool?
      Talk about far-fetched...

    • dholliday 13 March 2011 1:28AM

      I thought Paul Wilson was a blue anyway...never thought I'd see a blue write such a fawning and inaccurate eulogy to the red team.

    • HannibalLecterMD 13 March 2011 1:43AM

      Most Man Utd fans here are a bit like Scientologists. If you dare criticise their team in any way - watch out. They will jump on it, slag off your opinions and throw in ad hominem arguments to try to make a fool of you - regardless of whether your criticism is fair or not.
      But that won't stop me...
      Ferguson - great manager though he is - must be genuinely deluded with all his recent rantings to the press. As for signing Carrick for another 3 years - ha ha ha!! Nice one.

    • Glovidge 13 March 2011 2:15AM

      Oh no whats this? Another Liverpool blog?
      Whilst I agree that under Dalglish Liverpool have improved and will probably be challenging for top 4 positions again next season I also have a sneaky suspicion that despite the Guardianista's protestations they won't win a 19th title next season.
      Still I'm sure some of your writers will predict such an outcome. Again.

    • kiwired 13 March 2011 2:15AM

      I think we are a few signings away from having a top quality 11 - one that can challenge for titles. And if we got seriously lucky with injuries for a season that might even be enough to put in a challenge. But realistically we are probably two summers of very good signings away from having a squad who could really threaten for 19. But at least the swagger is back and a style of play you can hang you hat on. I've been delighted with the signings and the improvement under Kenny.
      I also wish Torres all the best at Chelsea most weekends of the season. He is absolute class on a football pitch and will return to fantastic football. But it will be harder at Chelsea because they are not as set up for him as we were. He should also feel free to look forwards as we have done.

    • Glovidge 13 March 2011 2:21AM

      Also can anyone name a time when a successful manager has returned to a club and equalled their success second time around? Walter Smith doesn't count as I think I could possibly win the SPL again even without signing El Hadji-Diouf.
      If Dalgish does pull off a miracle (for thats what it will be) then he can quite rightly be spoken about as one of the GREAT football managers

    • Geormajesty 13 March 2011 2:22AM

      Woah, tiger! In which alternative universe are you watching Liverpool?
      Talk about far-fetched...
      ​
      If the league had begun the day Kenny took over, Liverpool would be second on goal difference (to Arsenal).
      Since Kenny took over, both Manchester United and Liverpool have played 9 games. Liverpool have taken 17 points, Manchester United have taken 16.
      I think the stats speak for themselves.

    • ndc123 13 March 2011 2:27AM

      Liverpool improving under Dalglish? Yes. Ferguson under pressure? Yes. I don't think the two things are particularly related, though.
      I don't mind too much whether Ferguson finishes with 18, 19, 20, or 21 titles, because whichever one is his last will likely be the last one for that club for a long time.

    • Glovidge 13 March 2011 2:27AM

      But at least the swagger is back and a style of play you can hang you hat on
      ​
      Did you see the Braga game when Carroll came on? Liverpool need to sign Delap pronto to finalise that Route 1 Plan B scenario that will become evident in every game against the likes of Blackburn, Birmingham and Stoke next season

    • BDSMXXXpert 13 March 2011 2:31AM

      Liverpool back on track Jesus!...can some one recollect their plight in the Europa league the very same week. Dalglish with his media influences with almost all ex scousers lurking out there has become a spin doctoring politician, makes the media to do the work for him.
      Liverpool need a strong manager not some one who can call the shots only in the media, Dalglish is not the solution.

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 2:34AM

      Hmm, Not a bad article if a LITTLE far-fetched in it's declaration regarding challenging for the title at Anfield within a year or so. I WILL say a couple of things on it and the predictable pack of pathetic Internet pirahnas (no doubt aggrieved Man U fans and defenders of Fergie & probably Spurs fans to worried about LFC coming back and roaring past them in the process.......Don't worry Spurs fans - Have your fan for now. We'll leave consigning your side and Deputy Dawg back to the outer darkness where Tottenham belong for now......... until Next season anyway).
      Firstly - Givethedogabone? Utter crap - Liverpool are NO further from finishing 4th than Spurs. Maybe this season yes but That was due to Hodgson - NOT Dalglish. In fact LOOK at the 'Points Per Game' Ratio of Spurs as against Liverpool since Kenny returned. Think you'll find them Very similar and since SPURS are the current Top 4 side (though I've a feeling City Will replace them.....This time)? Well since Spurs are the current top 4 side and Liverpool are roughly matching them in the League form wise (Spurs have lost to Blackpool and Everton recently whilst drawing with Wolves - Liverpool may indeed have lost to West Ham but that was their FIRST defeat in 9 League matches and they've beaten Chelsea and United, drawn with Wigan to an offside goal and garnered 7 points in THEIR last 4 League Matches which is identical to the record from Spurs last 4 matches in the league).
      Simple Giveadog? Put THAT form in from the start of the season for Both clubs and the 'Anfield' factor that has been VERY prevalent since Kenny took over (unbeaten at Anfield and won All bar 2 games we've played there with 4 wins and 2 draws in 6 games thus far). Well, basically. Put all that into the equation and Liverpool overtaking never mind Spurs, possibly Chelsea who've been atrocious in recent weeks as well is an eminently possible outcome.
      No, I won't say Liverpool are GOING to reclaim their Top 4 spot and thus Re-Establish the onetime hated 'Big 4' simply because I think Another club IS going to fall from that particular perch in good time (the other 3 members are each now FAR more vulnerable than was once the case) but in the main? Yes I DO think Liverpool will Eventually not only reclaim a place in the Top 4 but go back to being almost fixtures there with Title Challenges coming from them regularly in the years to come as well.
      It won't be quite as quick as the Articles author Seems to think no but a Number of factors are combining and WILL add to the strength at Anfield season on season in this respect. Factors Mr Giveadogabone seems to have completely ignored but which nonetheless undermine his argument to the point of destruction. Put simply? These factors include money, respective owners, youth teams, brand appeal, team 'cores' and managers.
      Firstly the money and owners issues - Liverpool earn MORE than Spurs most seasons from a combination of merchandising, television and matchday revenue - Before under the late, unlamented regime of Hicks & Gillett - ALL such revenue was swallowed up by debt repayments along with any money made from transfers which COULD have gone back into the squad (and Should have done in the case of Alonso and Keane's sales to name but 2).
      As to Tottenham? Yes Spurs may not have any debts that we know of (although I'd Love to know where all that money for player purchases in recent seasons was garnered from) but what they DO have is a smaller ground, less in TV revenues most seasons (which is why they could not sustain a Top 4 challenge until H & G brought LFC back to within their reach enough last season). In the end up against the 'Brand' of Liverpool with a slightly larger stadium, more regular matchday and TV income as well as a LOT more from merchandising than Spurs? And ALL that money now being ploughed BACK into Liverpool over a number of seasons? Well when you look at it like that? Spurs come off worse in all seasons bar this one where they are IN the CL.
      Secondly whilst ENIC May have a fair amount of cash and run Spurs well within Budgets? Firstly they Cannot have as much as Liverpool's owners - John Henry is only The HEAD of a consortium (including a company owned by The worlds richest man) and together? Their resources are not only formidable but they FAR exceed those at Spurs command and more importantly? They are available In Addition to Liverpool's OWN substantial cash reserves to back up Dalglish in his Team & Squad rebuilding.
      Once more - this oft' ignored little fact actually gives Liverpool a FAR higher level of financial artillery than Many may suspect they have - I believe the combined resources available to the Fenway Group may actually be not far short of those available to Roman Abramovich. Thing is they are MUCH better at keeping it quiet than Chelsea is all.

    • BDSMXXXpert 13 March 2011 2:35AM

      Harry's triggering the renaissance at Spurs should be up there with what Shanks has done at Liverpool IMHO. Your board should have sacked Benitezand replaced him with 'arry long back.

    • Anycolouryoulike 13 March 2011 2:44AM

      *shakes head
      oh dear This is like when the Guardian predicted that liverpool will come 1st only to end up no where near it. Poodler78 avatar is what I'm doing right now, this season hasn't finished yet!
      I think Liverpool will employ Dalglish permanently, as for next year who knows i'm not looking that far or predicting anything.
      Liverpool have their moments but generally the quality of the football has been dire. All I want is that to change.
      Torres comments were interesting 🙂 I don't think he was making a dig at Liverpool if he was it was mild really. I think his comments were reasonable and I think he will come good for Chelsea he's a top top player.

    • HannibalLecterMD 13 March 2011 2:50AM

      As if there's a renaissance at Spurs. A lot of money and a lot of luck have coincided. They will be back where they belong soon. Harry Redknapp is a nice guy - he is at least honest to the media, unlike a certain red-faced scotchman, but surely nobody can think he is a competent tactician. I've heard he's going down soon for dodgy dealing as well...

    • MacChelsea 13 March 2011 2:54AM

      Where is the "revival"? The two wins against Chelsea and ManU? Not to say challenging for the title. Just to get rid of the mediocre players is a daunting task and a real test of NESV's commitment to the cause. Dalglish hasn't shown real capabilities in his tactics either, except maybe for the win against Chelsea.

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 2:55AM

      So you see - Not only do Liverpool now have a HUGE amount of cash of their own making available to strengthen with EVERY season now they have next to NO debt hampering them -and be honest That debt and the manner in which it hamstrung LFC with regard to team and squad building was THE main reason Spurs and City got so close to and eventually past them anyway wasn't it? Had Liverpool been able to invest ALL the 70 odd million they made from selling Keane and Alonso back in 2009 in a team that finished 4 points off the title - Do you honestly think Liverpool would NOT have finished in the Top 4 last season GiveaDogabone? I think not.
      Anyway not only do Liverpool now have only their own money for themselves each season? But they also now have a VAST amount of backup cash or at least a substantial amount that Can be used if their owners so choose in addition to their own money and put together with the fact that Liverpool can Now ALSO add money from everyone they sell to that little lot? Well add all that together and I think you'll see it makes Liverpool VERY formidable indeed financially - Although their owners have thus far been canny enough to keep most of this quiet and the media as ever haven't bothered to investigate just WHO owns Liverpool now - Well I have and the answers would surprise a few as well as scaring Liverpool's opponents not a little.
      Oh, and to those don't believe me? Well Look at Man' United or rather look at them in recent seasons - Noticed anything? No REALLY big signings is there? Combine that with them losing some HUGE Players and gradually, ever so slowly, and they have slowly, inexorably but visibly become less and less invincible from the point of May 2009 and their last title where they WERE damn near untouchable to the point of now where their team or rather it's core are now distinctly mortal and with NO certainty that Utd Can replace them once their veterans like Giggs, Scholes etc the Real core of the side are gone. United are as I said - Slowly but surely undergoing the 'degrading' process that caused Liverpool so much damage under H & G and sooner or later?
      Well, eventually, It Will affect them enough to drop them out of the 'Big 4' if it hasn't damaged them enough already. Why is this? Simple - Now ALL the money United make as well as what they get from transfers goes on DEBT. And that Debt is only getting worse - This should sound Very familiar to any LFC fans yes? Now it's United's turn. Now do you see? Do you see just WHAT taking all a club's 'Regular' income and transfer income DOES to it? Do you see how much it Really cripples clubs to be focused ONLY on paying off debt?
      Well then, THAT is why I'm so confident Liverpool Will be strong in the transfer market for many seasons to come. Thy now have ALL their 'own' money available to them and a bit more besides to reinforce that, they can spend all that money (and any extra from transfers or owners) on transfers and have what Four seasons (8 windows?) of NOTHING which destroyed a side that Could have dominated England And Europe to make up for. More to the point - Liverpool's owners have already shown their intent with Suarez and Carroll - And we KNOW they're in it to win - They've shown that in Boston no? As such - no it may not be yet - But I've a feeling it's now a question of WHEN not IF Liverpool win the league.
      As to the rest of what I was going to say regarding Liverpool's potential strength? That concerns matters like youth teams, brand appeal, team 'cores' and managers. Firstly - Liverpool have almost Ready to come INTO the first team a crop of Youth-Team players with the likes of Martin Kelly, Jay Spearing, Connor Coady, Raheem Sterling, Jonjo Shelvey, Suso and Jack Robinson (some of whom already HAVE featured in the first team) that is unmatched in strength in English football (nearly All of them English as well) since the much publicised 'Fergie's fledlings' crop of 20 odd years ago and we ALL know what THEY went on to do no?
      It's not just their names and abilities (very well showcased in their 9-0 annihilation job of Southend in the FA Youth Cup recently) that shows their potential either. They've won their league in recent years and THAT setup has already claimed Two FA Youth Cups in recent years also - But THIS group is something over and above even beyond them. More to the point they are being trained, overseen and nutured by a group in Rodolfo Borrel and Jose Segura who helped train the current Barcelona side or the vast majority of it anyway when They were all youth-team players and again, look at where THAT generation of Youth Team players are now - Or Don't if your an Arsenal fan reading this.
      I don't think Spurs or Man City now who've jettisoned what WAS a brilliant little Youth Academy in favour of firing cash at their problems in All directions have Anything LIKE this line of talent being set up to 'feed' into their first teams in the years and seasons to com

    • Anycolouryoulike 13 March 2011 3:12AM

      Harry Redknapp in his whole career has 1 FA cup on his CV, not impressive really.
      Shankly on other hand literally built Liverpool with his bare hands, from nowhere in the lower leagues to 3 time Champions, 2 FA Cups, UEFA European cups wins. He also laid the foundations for further success for Liverpool after he retired. So you can't compare really.
      Harry Redknapp has had the backing of the board and owners provided him cash to buy quality players, also Tottenham were already a good side just low on confidence at the time he joined. They had players that were already good it was just a case of lifting them up.

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 3:25AM

      Sorry meant to end the last bit with "Years and Seasons to come". Now to the last few factors I mentioned like brand appeal, team 'cores' and managers. Simple Liverpool have as I already mentioned a FAR larger Brand than Spurs have or Will have any time soon - Like it or not? THAT comes from their history and it means they WILL earn FAR more selling 'merchandising' etc around the world than Spurs could hope to and again - That ALL goes back into the team.
      Now then Together with the financial factor I've explained above it should be Quite easy to see just How Liverpool are GOING to come back sooner or later now yes? With a mixture of a LOT of money being ploughed into the team and a Youth Team setup to 'feed' great young players into the team - In short? If One doesn't revive the team? The other will. Sooner or later and over time? A continual revinvesting in the team on the scale that Is coming at Anfield as well as continual renewal via a rejuvenated Youth System will allow Liverpool to comfortably outdo ANYTHING that Spurs can come up with and who knows? Maybe others as well.
      Then I come to team cores and what seems to be BDSMXXXXperts Favourite subject by a LONG way. Managers. Put simply - Liverpool's team 'core' may not now be as strong as it once was but I've a feeling that the above mentioned renewal process will soon see to that and don't forget there are STILL many players in the likes of Gerrard, Kuyt, Reina, Carragher and even Lucas to name but 4 who have not only played in the Champions League Regularly up until Last year - In terms of CL experience which Tottenham are now suddenly being lauded for 'learning'? Well let's compare shall we? Liverpool have qualified in 8 of the last 10 seasons - Tottenham? Once, Liverpool have been to Four Quarter Finals, 3 semis, 2 finals and WON the damn thing as well as ending runners up - I could go on but you get the picture no?
      The gap in experience of playing In the CL and more importantly? Experience of Qualifying FOR it is vast and easily able to sustain a season or two Out of the CL just as AC Milan did in recent seasons only to return now. Yes Spurs are doing well ATM but they Won't qualify this season I think - City are To far ahead and whilst the other 3 May fall soon? It won't be THIS season which Leaves Spurs back where they were pre 2009/2010 no? In THAT case? I'd back Liverpool over them Any day of the week.
      I'd back them - Especially since Liverpool have since Kenny took over? Shown CL qualifying form in All their league games bar his first few. Put THAT sort of charge over a whole Season? And Liverpool could qualify again Quite easily and comfortably ahead of a Spurs side who really SHOULD have strengthened this January but did not - Again, add the money and Youth team factors in by the end of this season and start of the next and whilst Spurs MAY strengthen in the summer? Liverpool will strengthen more and again Next January if necessary - All of which when combined with their experienced 'core' of CL familiar players? Gives them a quite comfortable edge over Tottenham. An edge that sooner or later? Will tell and heavily in Liverpool's favour.
      Which brings me to my final subject and as I mentioned above BDSMExxxperts favourite subject. Managers - What was that you said? We SHOULD have hired 'Arry? Kenny can Only perform for TV interviews can he? Well in that case WHY have Liverpool MATCHED Spurs point for point over most of the last 8 or so League games? Why did we win at Stamford Bridge and Slaughter United when Spurs haven't done either in decades? Maybe beneath that charm and humour that so captivates the cameras there's a truly formidable footballing mind no? Indeed, examining the record further PROVES my point with NO further argument.
      Let's Look at Kenny's total over 2 periods in charge of what? Just over Seven seasons in Charge of Liverpool shall we? First time around he won THREE League titles, finished 2nd twice more (could add 3 including 1990/91). That's? In modern terms Six consecutive CL finishes in addition to 2 FA Cups. Nowadays? Kenny's comfortably matching a Spurs side STRAINING to keep ahead of us with our worst side in years? And now he has All the above mentioned cash and youth resources for a rebuild. Last Sunday to, he comfortably proved he can match THE best even now by having us destroy the team led by the 'Best' in Taggart.
      Again WHEN was the last time 'Arry did that? I'll leave out shall I the 3 and 4 goal shellackings Spurs have taken from Young Boys, Inter, Fulham and Blackpool this season and the fact 'Arry has but 1 FA Cup and 1 CL qualification to his credit as opposed to All Dalglish has done and is doing since these facts tell quite clearly WHOSE manager is better and? By a distance it is not Tottenham's - No wonder you dislike us BDSMxxpert - Sooner or later all that is amassing at Liverpool? Will restore them to where they were and probably at Spurs expense as well.....

    • ByEckorCooper 13 March 2011 3:30AM

      For the first time in 20 years the club is getting its act together (on and off the pitch). We have four potentially world class players in our youth team. We are the coming force.

    • soccerdad 13 March 2011 3:32AM

      This article is a clinical example of the mistake of not quitting while you're ahead and the dangers of needing to fill column inches. Wilson's critique of Torres is spot on, even though I do like the lad. But the rest is fanciful. Liverpool have 2 good strikers - we've yet to see just how good - and a very good want-away keeper plus an aging iconic midfielder and a collection of middling professionals. I've no doubt they can contend next year if they can find a young Baresi and a young Maldini and convince David Silva and either Yaya Toure or Nigel deJong to abandon Eastlands for Anfield. Failing that, their best hope is to clone Avram Grant 4 times and install the original and one of the clones at each of Chelsea, City, Spurs, Arsenal and United.

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 3:40AM

      Anycolouryoulike Spurs were a "Side with good players low on confidence when Harry joined" yes? Well other than that little 'look at them now' rant - WHY not take a look at Liverpool under Roy Hodgson and Spurs under 'Arry's predecessor Juande Ramos? Then look at Spurs AND Liverpool since they changed respective managers? Remarkbly similar upturns with the odd roadblock no?
      Incidentally? THAT is another reason why I believe that sooner or later? Kenny Will without question, restore Liverpool to the CL and maybe much more also - He has (or Will have) Far greater resources in money, Youth Team prospects/coaching and current 'core' team players as well as experience of his own in managing LEAGUE winning sides that Redknapp never has done - ALL in his favour and over a number of seasons? that WILL tell in Liverpool's favour against the Whole of the league - Not just Spurs. But unlike many of those (including the article's author) either backing the article or rushing to condemn it?
      Well, unlike them I do NOT believe this will be an overnight process - I think it will take at least 4 seasons or so for Kenny to get Liverpool to an absolute Peak and build The best team with the most depth he will have or is capable of building here (it took Rafa' 5 seasons from 2004/2005 to 2008/2009 to do THAT but I think Kenny will manage it in less time for some reason). Only THEN will he maybe fulfil this article's prediction and lead us back to the League Title at long last. So, yes whilst the premise of the article is sound? The Timescale it envisages is Not.
      Nevertheless - over the next few seasons and starting from the end of this one, I think a gradual, steady, continuous and definite improvement from Liverpool WILL become visible and continue as the team is strengthened and 'padded out' once more with the deadwood being cleared out and the 'quality levels' being restocked to their maximum levels possible. On another note and as you've probably already guessed Anycolouryoulike and BDSMxxxpert? I really do NOT like Redknapp - I never used to mind him and his Son DID captain us but ever Since in the throes of our takeover and near-destruction last October? Harry said something like he didn't know WHY we were protesting at those who damn near DESTROYED our club and shouldn't we just leave them in charge?
      Well, ever since he said THAT When he no doubt knew Full well just WHY we wanted them out and was only expressing such short-sighted, unbelievable and downright pathetic views out of fear for his own team's current position? Bascially not caring even IF Liverpool FC was actually destroyed as it WOULD have been under Hicks and Gillette if we'd not managed to defenestrate their regime? (throw it from the highest building possible.......only in legal terms). Ever since then I've despised and Hated the man in a manner I'd never have thought possible before. I now dislike him like I do Few others if any - his casual swearing at a TV reporter who repeated a joke at him instead of taking it with a pinch of salt and a smile as Kenny would have done just confirmed that hatred. Now as far as I'm concerned? The sooner his comfy little world as "Tottenham's wonderous Manager" and "England-Manager Elect" come Crashing down around his ears and it all goes horribly wrong for him? The better. It couldn't happen to a more offensive or deserving bloke as far as I'm now concerned....................

    • Noelito40 13 March 2011 3:42AM

      Wouldn't it be joy, for Fergie to win a 19th title this year, retire, and then have the Pool come along next year and make it a 20th for us!!

    • killkurtskids 13 March 2011 3:51AM

      2 thoughts; wouldn't this have been better published last Monday? And are Kenny's team the obvious heir to Barcelona's best-team-in-the-world-ever thrown? Afterall they've managed nearly a handful of good results now.
      Can already see The Fosters Original Comedy Guardian Writers Premier League Predictions gearing up for another hilarious summer of slapstick.

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 4:02AM

      Soccerdad - Don't need David Silva when Suarez is FAR the better player - Causes a LOT more chaos in opposing defences and we have a player coming through our youth team who will make David Silva look like a bad copy of Ryan Babel in Comparism. Best of all? He's English as well. His name? Raheem Sterling. Remember it - You'll be hearing it a Lot in the years to come.
      As to Yaya Toure and Nigel De Jong? Yaya Toure maybe is a good little player who would do wonders for us and it's not like we DON'T now have enough money to make him abandon City if we REALLY try - It depends which club he wants to be at and which has MORE potential and on that score? There is now no contest.........
      Anyway, we or rather our newly efficient scouting department have probably identified the NEXT Yaya Toure for us to sign (we're after Young players with great potential now) or we could just Sign Ever Banega in the summer whose five times the player either Toure OR De Jong will ever be. Oh yes, incidentally regarding Nigel De Jong? No thank you re De Jong we've just got rid Of ONE violent thug in Mascherano - Why hire another self-deluded idiot who has NO regard for the rules or where he puts his boots without regard for others (remember the World Cup Final and Alonso a FAR classier player than De Jong could even Hope to be? What happened when the two collided? What Should have happened? I rest my case).
      No Liverpool have a very bright future on the horizon - I haven't even Mentioned in all my writing Steve Clarke (THE best second in command in the PL) yet have I? As ByEckorCooper said - We ARE the coming force and everyone else will find that out soon enough. JKHD? Do you think the 6 weeks of good form are a conincidence? One name I mentioned just now in Steve Clarke Might just have a little to do with that no? And remember "just as 6 weeks of good form does not equal a resurgence"?
      Well equally, a couple of seasons of them finishing ahead of Liverpool does NOT make City and Spurs our superiors full stop and Certain to remain ahead of us forever - The game can change in an instant - It changed in Their favour in 2009/2010 as they Finally took advantage of Liverpool's failings and disasters off the pitch (without which, they'd not have got NEAR us and without which now? We WILL overtake them again soon enough). Well just maybe JKHD, BDSMxxxpert and Giveadogabone as well all the other Liverpool haters out there? Ever considered that maybe, just maybe the game is about to change In Liverpool's favour rather than against them once more?
      Just because you all can't Handle a fact doesn't mean it's untrue. The momentum building up behind Liverpool (and behind the scenes At Liverpool) may upset/bother/annoy a lot of you but? It can't be stopped now and whilst it may take a few seasons to have an effect? That effect WHEN it comes Will be massive - The storm brewing at Anfield When it breaks over the PL as it eventually will? Will be unlike anything SEEN in English Football since 1993 or so and it will change the game here forever. You can be certain of that if nothing else. Ignorance is bliss though and whilst The rest of the league may not be aware of what's heading straight for them just yet? Well, let's just say they'll find that out soon enough, not that they can do anything about it now - It's FAR to late for that.............

    • GuntherTootie 13 March 2011 4:09AM

      Geormajesty
      13 March 2011 2:22AM
      Woah, tiger! In which alternative universe are you watching Liverpool?
      Talk about far-fetched...
      If the league had begun the day Kenny took over, Liverpool would be second on goal difference (to Arsenal).
      Since Kenny took over, both Manchester United and Liverpool have played 9 games. Liverpool have taken 17 points, Manchester United have taken 16.
      I think the stats speak for themselves.

      ​
      Funny things stats
      If Liverpool hadn't narrowly beaten Fulham (i.e. drew or lost) Fulham would be either 1 point ahead/behind Liverpool after 9 games. Incidentally Arsenal have only played 8 games since the second coming.

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 4:28AM

      killkurtskids? I never said LFC are heirs to the 'best team in the world' tag emphatically claimed right now and for a good few years as yet by Barcelona - All I was saying or TRYING to imply was? That the forces of money, youth, management and footballing ability now available to Liverpool with which to rebuild and the momentum building up At Liverpool because of them might currently be unnoticed? But it's going to have a HUGE effect on English Football in the end. Particularly if you add to it the decline in quality and the apparent unwillingness to renew PROPERLY On the pitch at both Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge.
      Someone else said earlier that right now? Liverpool might be unremarkable ("a handful of good results" you said?) which is true but he then said they are THE "coming Force". No post responding to this article has more truth than THAT. A couple of seasons ago? Spurs were bottom of the PL, nearly a decade back? Chelsea weren't even IN the Top 4 never mind Champions, 20 years back United were nothing special and nearly relegated in 1990. Whilst Liverpool at that time were Everything United are NOW as you'll see if you uncover the identity of 1990's league champions - who were also champions in 10 out of the previous 14 or so seasons (sound familiar? Should as THIS is the run United have managed since 1993 almost identical in fact).
      My point here? Everything changes over time and I Know people have said re United etc before they are finished, Fergie's had it etc and been proven wrong thus far but Don't forget that sooner or later? TIME ensures that ONE of those predictions about United's impending fall from the top, the destruction of the Fergie dynasty etc - Will be correct. One day it Will all change, United Will be gone and not come back to the top for a while and then? Then the question arises? WHO will fill the vacuum they leave? I think with the Youth Team setup, the resources now available to them and the management team bedding into place at Anfield?
      Well, I think with all this - That very quietly, ever so slowly and only gradually? Liverpool are busy putting together an ironclad answer to that question and by the time the Rest realise just WHAT they've done? It will be FAR to late to stop the unstoppable rise all this will propel Liverpool on. I'm not saying all this will happen Now or even next season - Just that it WILL sooner or later.
      In all this? Don't forget - it took Fergie 6 or 7 seasons to put in place the foundations He built United to their current pre-eminence on. He incidentally stole most of the plans, methods and practises that made Liverpool great Before United's rise in order to do this from? Liverpool FC. And just because Ferguson and United have done something, succeeded beyond even Their wildest dreams and now APPEAR to be invincible? Don't think it's impossible for it to be used AGAINST them and eventually? With that combined with all the pressure from the Glazers at United as well as the constant battles with Chelsea, Arsenal And City to stay ahead now? Well don't think that eventually All that pressure WON'T destroy United's current position.
      This Could yet happen - We only Think it can't as we all forget the one thing No-one has Ever tried against them is using a similar plan to that which brought United their post 1993 success At a time When United are being undermined spectacularly Off-the-pitch by the Glazers and facing a large number of very good teams On the pitch. Just because this hasn't been tried at such an awkward time before for United? Doesn't mean it CAN'T be done? And just because we're yet to see the fruits of the plan at Anfield or United toppling YET? Doesn't mean that we WON'T see either.
      The pressure is being applied to United from All sides now - The greatest pressure although few can see it yet might just be coming from them seeing a virtual carbon copy of What United did pre-1992/1993 unfolding at Anfield and we all know where THAT took them no? As I've stressed repeatedly here - just because something hasn't yet happened? Don't think it can't - Remember Who were champions and WHO looked untouchable (in hindsight ready to topple) in 1990 at a time when United were in a similar state to Liverpool now? We all THOUGHT back then that Liverpool would dominate forever and United were running down a deadend road despite their long-term planning in trying to challenge that dominance - Funny how all that turned out isn't it?
      All I'm saying now is No-one has Ever tried to turn Fergie's OWN previous methods AGAINST him over a long period of time as he did so successfully (in the end) against Liverpool - Well now? I've a feeling over the next few years that the answer of What might happen in such a situation? Will become abundantly clear as that is PRECISELY what is happening at Anfield now - What's more? Ferguson knows this to. The results should make rather interesting viewing over the seasons to come..

    • organicprankster 13 March 2011 5:05AM

      Suppose Liverpool were to win the 19th title.
      ​
      Next season? I think we may be getting a little ahead of ourselves, no?
      It's been the same way with Liverpool supporters for the last two decades; it's always next season. No matter how many caveats are added there's always an underlying sense of entitlement - as if the last twenty years have been a blip, before the club is returned to its rightful position of dominance.
      Dalglish has done well, and deserves a crack at the job on a permanent basis - but he isn't a miracle worker. You shouldn't underestimate the amount of work that needs to be done at Anfield to turn the club into genuine title contenders again.
      It can be done. Liverpool has the fan base and the resources to haul itself back into the fray. But you shouldn't underestimate the size of the task. I anticipate progress from the last couple of years, but will make this prediction: next season will not be Liverpool's season.

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 5:10AM

      BTW - Regarding Tottenham? What on EARTH to make of Crouch's ridiculous recent remark that they are "Stronger now than Liverpool in 2007". Sounds like the kiss of death no?
      If not? Then maybe he should Wait UNTIL Spurs have been in TWO CL finals in 3 seasons, Won another trophy - Finished in the Top 4 All 3 of those seasons AND beaten Barca' in the Camp Nou en route to a CL finals. What rubbish - Spurs are nothing LIKE as strong as Liverpool were then and our team 2 seasons after That? Was on another level entirely to their current side.
      Half the Spurs team now would not get In the Liverpool side of 2008/2009 a team which battered Everyone out of sight at one point or another that season. It's still amazing how That side did NOT win the League Title it so richly deserved - Liverpool were THE best side in England by a country mile that season. Spurs current players? Don't even come CLOSE to that level. They'd have had problems in 2007 or 2008 getting in our team tol. Back then we were in the midst of qualifying for the CL Six Times in a row and Crouch Thinks Spurs are stronger after a lucky Qualification to a team that would later would become Liverpool's strongest in 2 decades? I think not...
      Fact is Spurs were LUCKY to qualify last year - Lucky City imploded despite an easier run-in, Lucky (as 'Arry WELL Knows) that Liverpool had such internal chaos as they did under H & G with it FINALLY filtering onto the pitch last year. Lucky to that they had invested for 3 or 4 seasons in Spurs team whilst Liverpool side COULD not thanks to H & G. Spurs? Won't qualify this season as Chelsea, City, Arsenal and United (despite some of them weakening) are All stronger over a season than them.
      Nice to know Crouch is still thinking of us so much mind. I'll bet his manager is to and not happily re' future prospects of Staying ahead of us judging by how utterly ridiculous that outburst was when compared against the facts. Is the pressure of Staying where they've climbed to getting to Tottenham? Maybe they KNOW that we're not planning for a Fly-by-night one season wonder qualification for the CL ala Spurs last year but A long stay by the way we're planning and amassing resources in readiness for a HUGE onslaught on the pitch? If That Is the case? No wonder Crouch (and thus 'Arry) are worried - Know what? They'd be right to feel that way to.
      Who knows? It's just possible perhaps that They can see what is coming from Anfield Far more clearly than anyone on here and If we're worrying them Now? (we clearly Are getting to them by that outburst) without even saying or doing much? God knows what they'll be like when the fun times begin and the assault from our end REALLY starts. I dread to think what sort of psychological wrecks Spurs will be When Kenny's reformation of Liverpool kicks into gear PROPERLY in the coming months and years. As a fan though? I'm looking forward to it even if others are not. The fact remains, deride Liverpool for a bad time last year All you like haters, snipe at us, knock Kenny as much as you wish but? Never forget that He is THE most successful man managing in English football bar one whose team he completely destroyed last week.
      He now has the man at his side who was the right hand man of Mourinho when he built probably The most consistently powerful title winning side I've seen in England since the late 80's. He has ALL the resources of a Huge global brand in Liverpool at his fingertips to drive his project there, as well as any extra money from transfers and a Youth Team System shaping up to be unmatched by anything in the country now - On top of that? He is backed by a consortium of unknown strength which nevertheless includes some of THE richest names in the world within it's ranks and he's achieved a complete transformation in Liverpool's fortunes in just over 2 months since joining - raising us about 24 positions from IN the bottom 3 to chasing Top 4 however unlikely this may sound and all THAT? In 2 months?
      Put like that and there's the prospect of having to face all THAT at Kenny's command permanently, with Liverpool strengthening in EVERY transfer window? Well, is it Any wonder Spurs are worried? I suspect a few others are to although they've not gone public just yet - Put it this way though. Why else was Alex silent last week? Why do you think? - Kenny would have torn him to shreds had he dared moan after THAT lesson.
      If a man can silence Fergie himself like that - You know there's something about him no? What's worse for Spurs and the rest though about Liverpool now? They don't Know what we're capable of now - They just don't KNOW what's coming - Unlike the days when Woy told the world. Well, They do say 'Ignorance is Bliss' and Spurs probably wouldn't WANT to see us returning to our old position so simply after all they did to GAIN it from us. We should let them dream a little longer - we'll be back soon enough and then some.......

    • BSea17 13 March 2011 5:15AM

      Torres hints that all is not well behind the scenes at Liverpool, so let's not get so giddy so quickly, eh?
      ​
      Let's assume that Torres was not the most popular person in that locker room. You could, of course, ascribe blame for that phenomenon to just about everyone else in the Liverpool organization, as it appears he wants to do. Whether that's a credible view of things is shaky at best. Xabi, Arbeloa, Babel, Hyypia, Garcia, Benayoun and lots of other non-Scousers the last several seasons have seemed to get along fine, or at least well enough. None of those players demanded the club follow his preferred transfer policy and none of them sulked around the pitch and none of them would go public with this sort of petty crap. Xabi acted like a professional and played exceptionally his last season with the Reds despite differences with Benitez. Reina's not thrilled about the state of things these days, but he's still playing hard. Torres just needs to get on with it and laugh at Terry's and Cole's jokes in Chelsea's locker room.

    • nwhalen 13 March 2011 5:23AM

      TLDNR. To literally several of you.
      Good to see so many aspiring novelists on the Guardian's comment boards though...

    • Redshadow 13 March 2011 5:36AM

      Organicprankster? A couple of points though I largely agree with the substance of a rather sensible post from you (sensible compared to MOST of the hysterical over and under reaction on here anyway).
      Yes we may be getting ahead of ourselves but then last season? Who could see Liverpool falling FROM the Top 4 before the season after they almost DID win That title in May 2009 (a VERY special month to me as my son was born). No-one, as I remember it - A Lot predicted on here that Liverpool WOULD be Champions in May 2010 - Didn't quite happen no? Equally everyone had Spurs as UEFA cup Qualifiers in August 2009 - I saw Nothing regarding the Champions League and them - It was all about can Liverpool Finally win the league? Will City finally break the Top 4 etc?
      So yes, unexpected things Can happen in a short length of time - Going further back to Our Last title - Who would have foreseen United breaking Their drought of titles only 3 years later? In a similar fashion to Our Current drought - THEY had gone more than 2 and a half decades stating "This WILL be our year" before falling apart year in, year out as Liverpool cantered away with title after title, European Cup after FA Cup etc. Sound familiar? Should do as it describes Now but with the names reversed. In which case why should WE be any different to the United fans back then?
      My point is They did exactly what you accuse us of ( "there's always an underlying sense of entitlement - as if the last twenty years have been a blip, before the club is returned to its rightful position of dominance." I believe you said) and eventually? They were proven RIGHT - Liverpool Did fall from their position of dominance as ALL empires do in the end (United fans now should bear That in mind - Liverpool might not get you in the end? Time however Will - It ALWAYS does) and by their diligent work with Youth teams, raising of funds, the managing skill of Ferguson blossoming and basically their work of 6 years or so since 1986 in 'positioning' themselves up until 1992?
      Well thanks to all that work - Guess WHO was in a position to fill the vacuum left by Liverpool's fall? (which had NOTHING to do with United or Ferguson BTW and everything to do with one George Graham and Arsenal. A little to do with Chelsea and a 2 - 4 defeat at Stamford Bridge on Easter Saturday 1991 where we came from 2 down then threw it away as well if I remember rightly. This followed by a 1-2 Easter Monday loss in Nottingham to put the nails in if my memory is correct).
      That's what I'm saying here Organic and WHY most of our fans are happy - whatever is thrown at us on here or elsewhere. No we DON'T expect a title next season or even the one after that - But we can See WHAT Dalglish is doing since it's a virtual copy of what Fergie did at United in the early 1990's and we're anticipating it EVENTUALLY making us very strong indeed with a more than decent chance of not just ending THAT drought but smashing it.
      To conclude - I'll say it once more yes? No we Don't expect immediate results - But we Do expect a gradual revolution - That's precisely what we're getting and we're happy with it. Dalglish doesn't NEED to be a miracle worker either - All he needs to be is what he Is - A brilliant manager with a ferocious work ethic and the resources in his youth team and financially to make a HUGE difference to Liverpool and thus English football given a good few seasons (sound familiar? Replace Dalglish and Liverpool with 2 other names and this year with 1991 or '92). I'll say what I think shall I?
      In a way - the last 20 years WAS a blip - a blip that grew into a crisis that grew into a loss of status as The pre-eminent side in England something like what happened to United after Busby left. Do you REALLY think that had Dalglish remained at Liverpool in 1991 and maybe gone on to claim The 19th Title we now so crave there and then that Ferguson WOULD have come CLOSE to catching us up?
      Would Liverpool would Only ave 19 titles now if that was the case? I think not - Ferguson and United could not get NEAR Liverpool when Dalglish was there before - His leaving set off a chain of events that allowed them 'in the door' as it were before which? They couldn't TOUCH us. It would take a similar reversal of fortunes about face to turn the clock Back ATM but It is NOT impossible.
      Eventually I think Something like this Will happen - The law of averages says it HAS to - Liverpool are just To big NOT to ever win another league title - United doing to well over To long under Ferguson for It NOT to cripple them WHEN he goes as he one day will. And the thing about those 'blip' comments and 'being restored to their rightful position of glory' beliefs about us? Well United fans had ALL of those before 1993 and in the end? They were right - Eventually? WE will be to - I predict we WILL win the title under the King - But maybe not next season. Our day will come though - Soon enough............

    • HMKGrey2 13 March 2011 6:14AM

      @Redshadow
      So where exactly do you think all that debt went, then? Fairies took it? Hobbits came and carried it away?
      I can assure you that Liverpool's debt hasn't gone away at all. It might have been moved or renamed, but it's still somewhere on someone's balance sheet and the club have to pay for it in some fashion. Being bought by someone - no matter how wealthy - doesn't make debt simply vanish. Do some research. It's not difficult to understand.


 




Hardline defence of referees is a symptom of failure

Putting match officials beyond criticism is a distraction from the real problem: the current system of refereeing is inadequate




  • Referee Phil Dowd has a non-sending-off word with Manchester United's Rafael da Silva. Photograph: Lindsey Parnaby/EPA Respect for referees was always going to be a hard sell in a culture where civility has broken down, vituperation plagues the blogosphere and the streets seethe with random fury.
    What chance a man with two cards and a whistle commanding the obedience of football folk, who are locked into a perma-state of tribal myopia? But there is a confusion at the heart of the recent kerfuffles over managers criticising match officials and it has to do with that word "respect". Good manners and consideration should not extend to meekly accepting decisions that are just plain wrong and then not being allowed to talk about them.
    Allow me a personal reflection. I have always felt it right to defend the referee against a lynch mob, especially when attacks became a softening-up tool for clubs to protect their interests. There was always an imbalance between players and managers not admitting human error while officials were subjected to trial by television for decisions made at lightning speed and without the benefit of replays or multiple camera angles.
    So far, so obvious. But over the past two weeks it has felt impossible to justify the performances of Martin Atkinson in the Chelsea-Manchester United Premier League match or Massimo Busacca in this week's Barcelona-Arsenal Champions League second leg. Atkinson's failure to send off Chelsea's David Luiz for a glaring second bookable offence and the dismissal of Arsenal's Robin van Persie for going through with a shot after the whistle had blown for offside were too grievous to dismiss with platitudes.
    An aside about Van Persie's offence: time-wasting by booting a ball into the stands is virtually impossible at that level anyway because a young chap in a tracksuit just throws another ball on to the pitch while the first one is retrieved. It violates the spirit of the game, certainly, but there was sufficient doubt about whether Van Persie had heard the whistle for the referee not to inflict such a draconian punishment.
    Which leads back to the "respect" agenda and whether officials should be protected by regulations that prevent managers criticising them after the match. Who else in society can retreat behind walls that stop others hurting their feelings with adverse comment? Not players, managers, journalists, doctors, politicians or artists.
    Arsène Wenger's entertaining tirade against Uefa was partly an expression of frustration that a dubious decision that fundamentally alters the course of an epic Champions League encounter cannot be challenged without the one doing the challenging ending up in trouble. The manner of that challenge was intemperate, sure, but you don't have to shout and swear into the face of a man in Uefa livery to bring the thought police to your door.
    Sir Alex Ferguson attracted official displeasure for calling Alan Wiley "unfit" and is now on trial for employing a word he corrected straight away. The word was "fair", which was leapt on with all the fervour of the John Cleese centurion at the stoning in The Life of Brian ("Fair! He said it again!") "You want a strong referee, anyway, and we didn't get that," Ferguson clarified. But it was already too late to stop the misconduct charge.
    Most of us would draw a line at the ref having his honesty impugned. Yet there needs to be scope for legitimate complaint. Otherwise we infantilise match officials and the watching public. The manager appears in front of a microphone with unseemly haste and is expected in that moment to consider the feelings of the match official above all else, even if he has just been knocked out of the Champions League or is about to lose his job.
    This is not "respect". This is conning the public and hypocritical, too, because any top referee will tell you the profession feels abandoned by its masters at the Premier League and Football Association. After the Atkinson affair it was said that refs who upset the big clubs fear they will be shunted off the biggest games for a month or four to placate the supposed victim. What kind of authority is that? This is how weak the system is.
    When Wenger accused Uefa of being a "dictatorship" and said they need "more humility" he was rebelling against the stifling of dissent. It has become too easy to portray managers as serial moaners. On the occasions when refereeing is inept, as opposed to merely debatable, it shuts off the possibility of it ever getting better to deny managers (players, less so) the right to be heard.
    In last week's Liverpool-Manchester United game, Phil Dowd failed in his duty to send off both Jamie Carragher and Rafael da Silva for wild tackles. When the system crashes three times in a week in three big games it is hard to avoid the conclusion that technology-phobic governing bodies simply refuse to see that refereeing football matches by the present means has become untenable.
    For managers to earn the right to complain they would have to self-regulate and establish limits to what can be said. But this omertà is farcical. It is a distraction from the real problem of system breakdown.
    It's taking part of the profits that counts

    First they fought over the exploding budget, now they are wrestling over the profits. The British Olympic Association is effectively suing its own Games in a dispute with London 2012 about the distribution of any surplus from next year's fiesta. Doesn't it make you proud?
    To condense the argument, the BOA wants the dosh shared out before the cost of staging the loss-making Paralympics is taken into account. London 2012 want to see what is left when both events are over. Meanwhile the Treasury, which has pledged £95m in Paralympic funding (it will cost £200m in all), will stake its own claim on any operating profit.
    The proposed ratios are intriguing. Sixty per cent of any upside will go to the grass roots, with 20% to the BOA and the rest to the International Olympic Committee. Why? The IOC has its own gold mines. It should not be raiding profits that would improve public provision in the host country. Nor should the BOA be distancing itself from the cost of the Paralympics if it believes in sport for all.
    Our logo should have been ferrets in a sack.

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    • realdelia 13 March 2011 12:47AM

      Most of us would draw a line at the ref having his honesty impugned
      ​
      Yes, indeed. What do we actually do when the refs are dishonest?

    • MikeInLA 13 March 2011 12:56AM

      If referees were given the opportunity to respond to legitimate questions from legitimate reporters - not a pack of journos at a post-match press conference - I believe that they would earn a tremendous amount of respect. Top level officials know the Laws of the Game and the manner by which to apply them. Many of the so-called "bad calls" can be articulately explained, be they judgment calls or intricate interpretations of the rules.
      Put another way, the refs know the rules far better than the pundits, and should be given the opportunity to explain themselves. As a qualified ref, I know I enjoy educating the players/fans in my matches - they generally agree when they know why I've ruled a certain way.

    • fnac 13 March 2011 1:01AM

      Because of the over zealous way clubs have attacked referees in the past, the associations (FA/UEFA/Premier League) feel compelled to robustly defend and protect referees. It becomes like an allergic reaction, the response being far beyond the magnitude of the initial stimulus.
      Having seen referees forced to retire due to intense pressure generated by managers and players, even after making correct decisions (!), is it any wonder we're in the situation we're in?

    • smifee 13 March 2011 1:11AM

      Players set out to con the ref. I think it would help things a little if they didn't do that.
      It would also probably help were clubs to stop discouraging referees from calling fouls on their players, or at least from carding players.
      Then we might have some justification for criticising referees. Maybe.

    • GazMedina 13 March 2011 1:14AM

      The ref-bashing has reached ridiculous levels in recent weeks. Has anybody noticed now that half and full-time analysis will now focus on 'big decisions' (which often can't be proven right/wrong) before any notion of who played the better football and how they did it is discussed?
      Modern media can offer so much to football but it's rotting it, starting from the top. By putting refereeing decisions in the headlines for days; by provding the forum for people to just launch trite attacks on supporters of rival teams, and making sure that everyone knows HOW ****ING IMPORTANT everything is just to make sure that nobody can maintain a sense of humour or objective view about anything invoked in the game without allowing it to get swept away in a sea of hackneyed toss.
      I'm not saying there isn't any need for reform, but what will benefit the game as a whole needs to be rationally discussed not these endless pissing contests about which teams are the most biased against.

    • F0Xinthebox 13 March 2011 1:15AM

      Sorry, reform cannot be built on the hypocrisy of Sir Alex Ferguson or Arsene Wenger because they manage "big clubs" and play in "big games." Principle of the thing. Perhaps there would be greater sympathy if they acknowledged on behalf of everyone how things ought to improve. Right now their whingeing serves to narrowly perpetuate their own brand of disproportionate entitlement at the expense of everyone else because of their superclub status. Manchester United, particularly, can have less cause for complaint than everyone else. Let them stew in their whingeiness until and unless they can admit they have been the prime beneficiaries over the years of these skewed decisions.

    • AnguaLupin 13 March 2011 1:19AM

      I, for one, am not going to extend terribly much sympathy to clubs/managers/players (and fans) over bad calls until they stop blaming a bad game on the ref/the pitch/the media/conspiracies/alignment of the stars. If you had a bad game, man up* and admit you had a bad game, don't look for excuses. The percentage of matches where one team lost because they played worse than the other team and yet still blamed an external factor for the loss is far higher than the percentage of matches where one team lost because the ref really did make a bad call. Not blaming the ref when it isn't actually the ref's fault would mean that when blame was allocated, that is, when it really was the ref's fault, the complaint would actually have weight. As of right now, though, blaming the ref is simply a reflexive action to your team not getting the result you wanted.

      *But not in John Terry kind of way, please.

    • justabouthopeful 13 March 2011 1:19AM

      @mike good call.
      The system has not broken down by any means, there's just more public fuss this week than most because its Man U and Arsenal who feel hard done by, rather than Grimsby or Exeter. Most decisions are called correctly in a match, and though Wenger and Ferguson will never publically admit it every team more or less gets their fair share of lucky escapes and injustices for their players.
      The human dimension in judging a game is an inherent part of its nature, and gives it such drama that immeasurably benefits the football soap opera.

    • GazMedina 13 March 2011 1:20AM

      Also, haven't (some) managers just brought this on themselves by mentioning referees just to put pressure on them or take it off their team? How are we supposed to know what is a genuine complaint anymore?

    • TheYid 13 March 2011 1:22AM

      Because of the directives handed down from on high referees will continue to punish "time wasting" "removing your shirt" and other serious offences, knowing that strict adherence to the law will no doubt earn them brownie points and the possibilities of getting the bigger games. A good referee, in my opinion, is one that goes unnoticed during a game. Massimo Bussaca no doubt felt the powers that be would deem him worthy of selection in games to come´for being a "team" player He in fact made a complete arse of himself .
      There is a fundemental flaw, when Carragher, Flamini and others can go seemingly unpunished and the likes of Van Persie and a WHU player (name escapes me) who recieved a second yellow recently for Shirt removal get dismissed. No doubt the powers that be will say that its the players fault, but I doubt if the decision makers have ever experienced the "rush" of grabbing the winner in front of 50 000 or so.
      The IFA Board at their meeting in Wales last week managed to ban the use of snoods and made sure that the players tights match their shorts.
      Think that says it all about the people that run the game.......
      And on that note I think I'll ask my girlfriend to take off my collar and let me wear matching tights and panties (royal blue and white of course)

    • Sheep2 13 March 2011 1:27AM

      Van Persie
      As has been pointed out elsewhere no other player in the match had such hearing problems.
      He kicked the ball away. He got caught and punished.
      It doesn't happen often enough. It is not reason to criticise the referee for it.
      Whining about being caught cheating is not an edifying spectacle.

    • RichAlchemy 13 March 2011 1:27AM

      Steve Coppell was once asked about a ref's mistake which in a match which Reading lost. His response was "if my players had made as few mistakes as the ref today, then we would have comfortably won the match regardless". Just another reason why I bloody love Steve Coppell.
      Too many managers are too keen to place all the blame on the ref for a defeat, usually as a way of diverting all the attention away from how shit the team's performance was. Why wasn't Arsene lamenting Fabregas's ludicrous backheel, Bentner's choke in the last minute, or the fact that his side couldn't muster up a single goal?
      I've got no problem with managers bringing out the odd "I don't think it was a penalty" or "he didn't deserve a red card for that" on MOTD (and neither do the FA for that matter), but when they start suggesting the ref's are biased ("when I saw it was <ref X> I knew we weren't going to get any decisions today") or taking ludicrous unjustified swipes at a referee's fitness levels, then the FA have every right (and duty) to step in.

    • dholliday 13 March 2011 1:30AM

      Respect for referees was always going to be a hard sell in a culture where civility has broken down, vituperation plagues the blogosphere and the streets seethe with random fury.
      ​
      Eh? Which streets might that be then? Please ye gods let this not be a reference to the civilian protests in Egypt & Libya.

    • Forgettablename 13 March 2011 1:32AM

      The insanity continues. Referees should, at the very least, have the same technology available to them as your average Bedouin tribe - i.e. video replay. With the speed at which multiple replays are now available, the officials should be allowed - AT THEIR DISCRETION - to consult a video monitor to confirm or deny their determinations.
      It is patently ridiculous that while almost every man, woman & child on the planet watching these top-level games has a high-enough-definition picture to be able to count the blackheads or CR7's forehead or the exact number of hairs growing out of Wazza's ears, the only individual whose opinion REALLY matters gets 'two cards and a whistle'. Not only does J. Q. Public have a better view of the proceedings, he generally ends up with roughly 6 different camera angles in several different speeds, with the corresponding number of (usually) fairly conclusive replays.
      So long as the officials are (preposterously) denied similar (or better) technology than the average spectator is afforded, their credibility - and with it, the credibility of the game - will be persistently undermined.
      Sepp Blatter Out! Please...

    • GaryB7 13 March 2011 1:35AM

      Your attack on poor refereeing would have more merit if it wasn't only about the clubs who get the best refereeing in the League week in and week out, and was a more general point about how the Wigans and West Broms, etc. get disgraceful reffing against the teams you feel so sorry for. Or don't they count?

    • Macca07 13 March 2011 1:40AM

      maybe we should show "respec'" to Paul Hayward for the shite he spout.
      So - Mr Ferguson can call the ref's integrity into question, but because he 'corrects' himself within seconds it's ok?
      You say OK, I say calculated. He wasn't complaining a week before about Rooney vs Wigan, yet 2 defeats later & he's gunning for everyone.
      Why is it that 85 (or so) managers in the English Professional Leagues can conduct themselves yet we excuse those that can't?

    • Cal7907 13 March 2011 1:55AM

      A culture where civility has broken down?
      What a load of hyberbolic b******t.
      The rest of the article is just as bad too. Referee mistakes have always been a part of the game, can we please get over this current media obsession with it and actually talk about football.

    • F0Xinthebox 13 March 2011 1:55AM

      Why do people keep making the case that Van Persie should not have been sent off because his offense is less serious than say Carragher's meander down Nani's leg? There is no correlation. If you kick the ball away that's a yellow (whether it was the right decision is another matter altogether.) Carragher should have been sent off. This is like saying time wasting should not attract any sanction as it is not as serious as someone breaking someones legs. There is no moral corollary to follow. There are merely rules to be applied.

    • Balmainite 13 March 2011 2:06AM

      One of the big problems is that if a referee hands out all the yellow cards he should during a game then a lot of games will end up five-a-side, and players know that. They also know that the referee will then be accused of "losing control" of the game. So the referee has to be selective and then gets into trouble for the judgment calls he makes.
      Possible solutions are these:
      1. Put at least another referee on the pitch. Rugby league has two referees; American football has a zillion; basketball has three (for ten players); so does ice hockey (I think); Australian Rules has three. Yet football has one poor bastard chasing after super-athletes for 90 minutes. Give me a break.
      The extra ref means the officials will have more views of incidents and it should make players more careful about fouling. Further, because one ref won't be responsible for dishing out all the yellows, it should, funnily enough, make them more willing to show the card.
      2. Abolish sendings off. They are too drastic. Let officials award penalties instead. Indeed, encourage them to award penalties.
      3. Make walls stand back 15 metres (or abolish them altogether). Teams that foul around the penalty area should pay the price. Nothing more tiresome than watching a wall get put back 8 or 9 metres.

    • Insirgentz 13 March 2011 2:10AM

      Swop the refs from the SPL with those from the EPL for a month, that'll shut Ferguson and Wenger up.

    • Talonade 13 March 2011 2:22AM

      The card system itself is to blame, along with other absurdities in the rules.
      Firstly, technical fouls (over zealous celebration, time-wasting) should not be punished comparably to professional fouls, or violent tackles. Only the later should be able to provoke an expulsion. The others could be sin-bin type offences perhaps. Sending offs are indeed too drastic, and should not be applied for van Persie-esque nonsense.
      Penalties, like expulsions, are too drastic in a game with so few "points" typically scored. It would be equivalent to an umpire awarding 200 runs in a cricket game for a certain type of foul. It swings the result way to much, and is totally arbitrary. A striker through on goal 30 yards out being taken out and getting a freekick is absurd when a trip on the edge of a packed penalty area is a penalty.
      So far, so obvious.
      Change the rules so they fit the game!
      Allow 3 video replays per team per match, and have two refs.

    • MissAlotavagina 13 March 2011 2:24AM

      first few parAgraphs have sum balls paulie!!!!
      ref bashing=fun
      you use david luiz as an example?? ur brilliant idiot manboy rooney altercation with james mcarthy(top player) would have better explained it
      and that ref who did that game and the blackburn fulHAM game deserves to be put down
      if an employee did that in the "real world" in a similiar situation he would be given his p45
      -mistakes are mistakes, yes own up to them/explain
      -but showing leniency to many then punishing the inocuious challenges???? beggars belief
      CHELSEA WILL WIN CL AND THE PREMIERSHIP

    • FourTwoThreeOne 13 March 2011 2:25AM

      in related news, humans sometimes make mistakes and Paul Hayward doesn't like it.
      as a result, you're never going to eliminate "bad calls" from the game. nor can retroactive decisions be made to re-determine outcomes. nor can you implement "video evidence" or other technological means of determining infractions after the fact without significantly slowing down the game.
      the state of refereeing is fine. most officials are erudite, professional and scrupulously fair, even if fans don't like their decisions. refereeing big matches is a hugely pressurized job that requires one to make enormously consequential decisions (potentially costing the offending team millions) instantly and with a human eye. referees are the scapegoats of choice, but maybe if van Persie and Scholes weren't being twats and Luiz were less reckless these problems wouldn't arise in the first place. yet the players, and managers (looking at you Wenger and Ferguson and Mourinho) always seem to be able to seamlessly pass on blame for their failures to the officiating.
      and their sycophants in the press provide them with cover in articles like this.

    • dandydon 13 March 2011 2:26AM

      Football does not use video evidence during games for controversial decisions, as football likes to fix games from time to time. Why else would Sepp be so determined never to try it. The possibility of not being able to manipulate the odd fixture is just too important. From the people who had no hesitation bringing in the idiotic Golden Goal rule a few years ago... Football is rotten to the core. From the very top.

    • Melmoth74 13 March 2011 2:26AM

      Cal7907
      13 March 2011 1:55AM
      A culture where civility has broken down? What a load of hyberbolic b******t.
      I can't help but thinking you have weakened your own argument in some way .....

    • hiphoppopotamus 13 March 2011 2:28AM

      Mr Ferguson
      ​
      Sir Alex Ferguson, actually. You're as bad as that fat Spanish bloke who had a breakdown on TV.

    • FourTwoThreeOne 13 March 2011 2:28AM

      With the speed at which multiple replays are now available, the officials should be allowed - AT THEIR DISCRETION - to consult a video monitor to confirm or deny their determinations.
      ​
      then managers can criticize them after the game for not having looked at a particular incident, or looked closely enough, or caused a delay in the game that hurt their team's momentum.
      "video technology" is surely no fix.

    • Melmoth74 13 March 2011 2:34AM

      dholliday
      13 March 2011 1:30AM
      Respect for referees was always going to be a hard sell in a culture where civility has broken down, vituperation plagues the blogosphere and the streets seethe with random fury.
      Eh? Which streets might that be then?
      This is not strictly related to the main thrust of the article but since you raise the point may I respond by asking you 3 questions?
      1) Do you live in the UK?
      2) Do you read your local/regional newspaper(s) and/or watch your local TV channel(s)?
      3) Do you ever go to your local town/city centre at night or at the weekends?
      If you have answered yes to any of these questions, then you should be able to answer your own question.

    • thisperson 13 March 2011 2:36AM

      sheep2 and FOXinthebox-
      Messi did exactly the same thing as Van Persie . . He didn't even get booked for it but Van Persie did and as it was a second yellow,he was sent off. Lionel...well.
      As 'FOX..'says,there is no moral corollary to follow.Just the rules,so...
      Sheep2-how do you know no other player had hearing problems? Were you there?If so,did you ask each and every player afterwards?It's hard to know how you can be so certain otherwise.I'll give you a big clue...think about how you get to hear the sounds that you hear on TV. Have you ever been to a game and then watched it[and heard it] on TV. If so, you might know what I'm pointing to.

    • dadric 13 March 2011 2:36AM

      Why do people keep making the case that Van Persie should not have been sent off because his offense is less serious than say Carragher's meander down Nani's leg?
      ​
      As someone who strongly believes the van Persie sending off was a disturbingly stupid decision, I can't see the relevance of Carragher in he least. Different ref, different game, different circumstances, the two have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Should Busacca have thought "Well, they didn't send THAT guy off, so obviously I can't here either." van Persie deserved only a warning because that's all the particular circumstances warranted, not because Jamie Carragher got away with murder in a completely different game.

    • dadric 13 March 2011 2:41AM

      @Sheep2
      Incidentally, you're very quickly becoming just as tedious and bitter as the Arsenal supporters you complain about invading B'ham threads (despite the fact that I only saw one today, which apparently made you feel the need to whine about "all" of them in the Arsenal - Utd thread). We get it; you don't like Arsenal, and some of the supporters are annoying and whiny. We know.

    • Gulley 13 March 2011 2:52AM

      I can't have respect for somebody who calls an actor dressed up as a 1st century rabbi a "centurion," and I don't see much different with refereeing now than then. It's daft that Van Persie got sent off; it's nuttier still that Barcelona attempted 800 passes and Arsenal didn't put a single shot on goal against a team missing its two best defenders.

    • ronhogan 13 March 2011 2:53AM

      >As has been pointed out elsewhere no other player in the match had such hearing problems.
      Actually two Arsenal players have said on ATVO that they had difficulty hearing the whistle, during the match, and presumably Messi had the same problem when he put the ball in the net after being given offside later in the match.
      Not that it matters; even if the referee could have been absolutely sure van Persie had heard the whistle it would still have been comfortably the stupidest decision since Kaka got sent off against the Ivory Coast in the World Cup. Especially in view of this:-
      YouTube - Barcelona Keeper Pinto Charged For Alleged Fake Whistle VS Copenhagen HD
      : rank cheating which that cnut Guardiola refused to condemn.

    • BigBananaFeet 13 March 2011 2:53AM

      Writing an article in a national newspaper defending the sour-grape-rants of Ferguson and Wenger is a disgrace.

    • Melmoth74 13 March 2011 3:04AM

      MissAlotavagina
      13 March 2011 2:24AM
      and that ref who did that game and the blackburn fulHAM game deserves to be put down
      That is a bit harsh isn't it?
      As for your closing statement: at the risk of being labelled uncivil myself, I think there is more chance of you learning to spell than there is of Chelsea winning the CL & the Premiership this season.

    • monkeycircus 13 March 2011 3:05AM

      @Forgettablename
      exactly! did the ball cross the line, diving, too close to call offsides, off the ball incidents, straight reds, even referee corruption and match fixing could all be solved by comprehensive implementation of technology. The only part of your post i disagree with is that the referee should consult the technology at his discretion...why even leave that element of doubt? The ref on the pitch should really just be the mouthpiece for a team of match officials who are constantly watching and monitoring the game, and relaying their analysis to him. Players and fans should have realtime access via stadium screens and tv, to the same footage the referees are seeing.

    • JamieTalbot 13 March 2011 3:11AM

      In your haste to balance the universe by including Rafael into the list of those who should've seen red in the battle of last weeks game, you missed out Maxi Rodriguez. Please correct this asap, Hayward, we have not the time for subjective memory loss.
      Unless of course it was a horrific, premeditated standing-still thigh strike against the waist high studs of Maxi's boot that was the offence, in which case Rafael should have been booked for that offence too. You can even see the mark where the horrible little wretch assaulted Maxi's boot in the above image. I'm not sure what more evidence is needed here, judge.

    • RememberTheMer 13 March 2011 4:02AM

      JamieTalbot, you are the perfect example of why refs can never win. Your tribalistic love of your team leads you to indulge in some subjective memory augmentation in a pathetic attempt to rationalise or exonerate the actions of one of your boys.
      Maxi just put his foot up to win the ball and Rafael nipped in front of him. A freekick sure, but have you ever played the game? If you didn't cop something like that once every few games you probably weren't trying hard enough. Its a purely football incident and to characterise it as some vicious pre-meditated assault that is any way comparable to Carragher or Rafael's "tackles" is absurd.

    • tocers 13 March 2011 4:03AM

      the complaints against the refs, made by the managers, are always one sided.
      in other words, they complain only, if a decision goes against them, if the decision goes for them, they defend it and their player too, see alex ferguson with the wayne rooney incident, just to name one
      that being said, i have to admit, that the refs were quite poor recently. it is not about a penalty given or not given, or an offside given or not given, those decisions are (at least some) really very difficult to judge and go sometimes for and sometimes against one.
      i think it is the really obvious ones, like dangerous tackling, violent conduct, where they fail to show red, which is the real problem.
      bottom line, they should have to give post- match interviews like the managers

    • tocers 13 March 2011 4:08AM

      the same goes to the van persie against barca:
      1st yellow for a "slap"? how is that not straight red?, so that is what mr. wenger should have complained about, just to be fair.
      but he didn't, did he? - of course

    • RememberTheMer 13 March 2011 4:17AM

      DuncanShortbread. I respect them too.
      The problem Fifa has is that they persist with the whole referees decision being the "final word" nonsense. They seem to believe it protects the refs authority. In reality it leads to a situation where players and coaches try to get away with whatever they can in the knowledge that consequences are likely to be minimal. They treat the officials with contempt, cheating as much as they can while whining at every "injustice".
      I personally don't want to see in game video reviews, except maybe for Schumacher-Batiston style incidents. But they could bring in a post match review where yellow/red cards were given or rescinded and retrospective punishment with real consequences, I think you would see a lot the nonsense cease very quickly. The refs don't need to be protected from criticism, they just need meaningful backup from the powers that be.

    • dadric 13 March 2011 4:18AM

      the complaints against the refs, made by the managers, are always one sided.
      ​
      Look, I understand the point you're trying to make, but do you really expect them to complain when a call goes in their favor? Managers like Ferg and Wenger are sore losers, and possibly more importantly, they're usually forced to answer questions before they've had a chance to cool off or to see any replays. They advocate for their team and their players because that's their job.
      1st yellow for a "slap"? how is that not straight red?, so that is what mr. wenger should have complained about, just to be fair.
      ​
      It was hardly any more of a red than the two Barca hands that grabbed two Arsenal necks. Just to be fair.

    • BigChelseaFan 13 March 2011 5:58AM

      RemembertheMer Maxi just put his foot up to win the ball and Rafael nipped in front of him.
      If Carragher had been sent off then Rafael wouldn't have been enraged, Maxi wouldn't have 'accidentally' kicked him and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
      However the world isn't perfect, Rooney stayed on the pitch, so did Luiz, Carragher, Maxi and Rafael.
      However Van Persie still got himself sent off, no one suggests that it was his first yellow card that contributed to his sending off, without that the time wasting one would just have been a silly yellow.
      By the way it was a deliberate and sly kick by Maxi, TV replays clearly showed this.

    • nwhalen 13 March 2011 6:02AM

      While ref's should be perhaps more accountable for poor decisions, we shouldn't just open the floodgates.
      Ferguson's favorite post-loss ploy is to blast the referee to distract the media. He'll take the fine/ban/not-so-strongly-worded letter and carry on with his life. If he was allowed to do that after every match (and other managers as well), bad things would happen. As has been demonstrated in Scotland recently, there are always a few crazies who don't understand that football is a game, and will threaten/attack officials.
      Although most professions aren't protected from criticism like officials are, none of the others are entirely comprised of making decisions that will anger one of two large groups of people who are often drunk, angry young men.

    • dholliday 13 March 2011 6:16AM

      DuncanShortbread
      13 March 2011 3:45AM
      Consistently accurate refereeing has been scientifically proven to be impossible - Referee and Umpire Bibliography - Dr Peter Simmons - CSU - it's a miracle that referees are able to maintain the order that they do when so many incidents are so ambiguous. All power to the referees who do the impossible with integrity. They have my respect.

      ​
      Great post, worth repeating.

    • ArsenalKL 13 March 2011 6:32AM

      It is not the responsibility of Wenger or SAF to complain about a referee in a match not involving Arsenal or Man U. The very fact that they are commenting is an "acknowledge(ment) on behalf of everyone how things ought to improve".
      The point of this article, in my estimation, is that there is no room for criticism. And without some sort of review conducted in a more open forum, the situation will never improve.
      Other sports have made great progress in this regard and it does not necessarily have to be done with "challenges" and/or video replay. The NFL and professional tennis use video replay and though it may not be appropriate for football, it is certainly hard to deny the reduction in complaints by participants and fans. Major League Baseball does not use video replay, and instead relies on stringent training and education, and many many hours of lower level on-field experience. These are but two examples, chosen to highlight the comparatively inadequate standards for qualification required and/or expected of football referees.
      Those who believe that poor officiating adds to the drama and excitement of the game are blinded by romantic notions or nostalgia for days long passed. While acceptable for a weekend 5-a-side, the professional game of football requires much more from those who make the decisions, including those responsible for training, assigning and reviewing the officials on and around the pitch.


 
Excuses starting to wear thin for goal-shy Fernando Torres

The Chelsea striker needs to rediscover his scoring mojo fast or risk being seen as a busted flush


Fernando Torres has yet to find the net for Chelsea since his move from Liverpool in January. Photograph: Tom Jenkins Excuses are like those miracle diet tips you see advertised on the cover of women's magazines – the more there are, the less credible they are. Over the past year or so a host of explanations have been offered for the poor form of Fernando Torres: his confidence is low, non-stop football has left him jaded, he needs a long run of games to fully shake off injury, the players around him are unworthy, his motivation is drained, he is trying too hard. And so on. Much more of this and Chelsea fans will be forced to conclude that the most expensive footballer in British history is, in fact, a waste of money.
It could be, as many have suggested, that he just needs one goal with his new club for his confidence to be restored and his old prolific self to re-emerge. At international level a goal in the opening game at Euro 96 for Alan Shearer, on the back of a two-year international drought, propelled him towards becoming the tournament's top scorer – but even during his fruitless streak with England Shearer was banging in goals for Blackburn; conversely, when Andriy Shevchenko, the Chelsea flop that Torres must dread emulating, was failing to score frequently for his club, he continued to net regularly for Ukraine.
Torres's performances, however, have generally ranged from tepid to torpid for both club and country for well over a year: if at Liverpool it was plausible to blame the poverty of his supporting cast, the same excuse hardly washes with Spain, and yet he did not score for his country during their triumphant expedition to South Africa last summer nor even during any of their World Cup qualifiers. Since 2008 his only competitive goals for one of the greatest sides ever seen have come in a Euro 2012 qualifier against Liechtenstein, whose every mention must be accompanied by the words little and lowly.
FC Copenhagen are not as lowly as Liechtenstein but, given that they come to Stamford Bridge for Wednesday's Champions League tie 2-0 down from the first leg, their visit represents an ideal chance for Torres to open his account for Chelsea, in his sixth outing. Hence Carlo Ancelotti is unlikely to rest him.
The manager needs him to rediscover his scoring mojo fast and if confidence is the problem then it must be boosted at the earliest opportunity, or rather, at the next opportunity, given that in his last game Torres failed to score against Blackpool, the Premier League's most porous defence. The fact that Didier Drogba has been left on the bench for half of Chelsea's matches since the Spaniard's arrival suggests that Torres is seen not merely as the future of the club but very much the present and, as such, the man whom Roman Abramovich expects to shoot Chelsea to glory in the Champions League, the one trophy that they can realistically win this season. A goal will not restore the speed that Torres seems to have lost but it may render him less anxious in possession and less rash in his once-cool finishing.
Torres has enough superb displays in the bank to earn him more time to prove his tepid form is but a blip. But at what point does a blip become a terminal decline? Already it is difficult to remember any great striker who has endured such a long run of indifferent form at an age when he is supposed to be in his prime, unless we include Wayne Rooney as a great. But perhaps neither Rooney nor Torres deserves that description? Or perhaps the intensity of the modern game means some players, even great ones, pass their peak much earlier than they used to?

Posted by Paul Doyle Sunday 13 March 2011 00.07 GMT The Observer

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  • partlucid 13 March 2011 12:44AM

    A glittering career undone by 6? poor weeks at a new club. What a ton of tripe...


  • markodabeast 13 March 2011 12:45AM

    Very unfair. I remember when Anelka joined a few January's ago and he struggled badly also. He will need time. As simple as that.



  • JayP2010 13 March 2011 12:53AM

    Clearly his legs have gone. Too many injuries. The two knee operations he had last year have finished him as a top player. Similar to Kaka, who is only 28 but also looks shot.


  • TehGreatGonzo 13 March 2011 12:55AM

    He's been injured on and off for two years and is settling into a new club. First he needs to get his fitness back, which will be easier at Chelsea as they can turn to Drogba and Anelka in his absence. After that give him time to adapt to Chelsea's system and he'll be back scoring again. Will he be as good as he was in 2007-2009? Probably not, injuries seem to have taken the explosive acceleration out of his game, but he'll still score a bucketload for Chelsea.
    I'm a Liverpool supporter by the way.


  • Friggity 13 March 2011 1:22AM

    I wonder if at the point of ending this


    represents an ideal chance for Torres to open his account for Chelsea, in his sixth outing
    ​
    it never dawned on you that the entire premise of this article is more than foolish?
    And don't go writing off Copenhagen. I can ensure you each and every fan is still worried about who scores that first goal at the Bridge.
    For all the erroneous tags placed on Chelsea I can assure you the team and its fans respect every team. We never count chickens before...


  • pottys99 13 March 2011 1:27AM

    Surely he has his fitness back by now. He had been starting for liverpool for quite a few games up until the point he was sold. How long does it take for a player to get his fitness back?
    Big fan of the player on his day and I'm sure he'll come good but I do think that after a year and a half of fairly indifferent form and a fifty million transfer fee that questions are inevitably going to be asked.
    Also it's not the last six weeks that is undoing his reputation but more like the past 16 months (Injuries not withstanding).



  • OwentheManc 13 March 2011 1:32AM

    He needs to hit the bottle. I recommend Clairol Nice'n'Easy Summer Kiss. That or toilet duck yellow.



  • BlueLegend 13 March 2011 1:44AM

    A bit too early for this isn't it Paul? If you have actually watched him play since the Liverpool game, he has been doing everything right except scoring. His movement is fantastic, he is very unselfish (contrary to what I heard before he transferred), and he is getting in the right positions.
    All that is lacking is confidence to score. As a forward, he will of course be judged by his goals but I'm not worried about that. They WILL definitely come. I say judge him fully next season.
    I also think he is better paired with Anelka. Drogba is a world class player but his form has been horrible for most of the season (his attitude hasn't helped either).



  • TheForst 13 March 2011 1:54AM

    A glittering career undone by 6? poor weeks at a new club. What a ton of tripe...
    ​
    Paging Brian Clough . . .


  • Jon780249 13 March 2011 1:58AM

    Did I miss something? I thought I was going to read an article not a puff of smoke.
    'from tepid to torpid'...good description of the article I would say.


  • Macca07 13 March 2011 1:59AM

    BlueLegend
    13 March 2011 1:44AM
    Drogba is a world class player but his form has been horrible for most of the season (his attitude hasn't helped either).

    ​
    hmmmmmm
    Drogba:Torres
    Torres😀rogba


  • Jon780249 13 March 2011 2:00AM

    p.s. It is patently clear what is wrong with Torres. He clearly needs to dye his hair blonde again. He hasn't been the same since going au naturel. Everyone knows blondes have more fun in front of goal and are much more likely to score on a Saturday.


  • ndc123 13 March 2011 2:12AM

    Fernando was so, so good in his prime that it is going to take a while before it sinks in that he's no longer world class. That burst of speed is gone. He never needed any time to settle before because he was always so damn fast that all he needed was the ball.
    See Messi each week and Suarez' first goal last weekend to see what young legs look like. In a few years those two will drop off as well. It's rare that a player can keep his top speed & burst anywhere near age 30. Craig Bellamy is an exception, and I think he had some special training regimen specifically designed to take care of his knees or something.
    @JayP2010
    You totally get it. The rest of these folks are speculating about what could be in some hypothetical, while you are commenting on what you see with your own eyes each week. The fact is that Torres has not been running by anyone since his round of injuries last season.
    And of course, the biggest signal that he has lost his burst is that his hamstring never goes anymore. He has been fit this whole season straight through, barring one little ankle sprain IIRC. When he had the crazy speed he used to get hurt all the time.


  • CoconutJoe 13 March 2011 2:16AM

    Before the world cup last summer, Torres was complaining that the PL could finish him due to it being so physical.
    For Liverpool he became more and more injury prone as the seasons passed. The PL has taken its toll. Whether he can recover his form from his first few seasons for Liverpool remains to be seen. I don't think he will though.



  • Glovidge 13 March 2011 2:32AM

    @Jayp2010
    Sadly I think you're right. I think Torres was at his peak building up to and around Euro 2008.
    Maybe if he gets a proper pre-season in this summer he will be as sharp again but I fear that like Kaka (and to a lesser extent Michael Owen) his career will be remembered as one that flattered to deceive in its later years.


  • RedMonkey68 13 March 2011 2:40AM

    Seems to me that we are looking at the new Mickey Owen. Its March and all the lad can talk about is Liverpool and his reasons for leaving. I'm not much of a shrink, but he needs to move on. He can't seem to make his mind up. Stevie and Pepe, his mates supported and acepted his choice to leave LFC, now its all business and there are no friends in football.
    Me thinks the player protests too much. Maybe its dawned on him that Chelsea won't win anything this season and once the fairplay rules come into play, Roman's wealth is irrelevant. LFC under Kenny have been inspired and it sounds like he has suddenly realised he jumped to soon.


  • Lardons 13 March 2011 2:46AM

    How wonderful it will be if this isn't just a career blip and actually the start of the big decline towards Pantsdom.
    I remember the joy I felt when I finally realised that Shevchenko was going to be crapski.



  • BSea17 13 March 2011 2:52AM

    As a Liverpool supporter, the more I see of Suarez and Carroll, combined with Nando's shaky form and thoughtless comments to the press, the better I feel about this transfer every day. Much as it pains me to say it though, Torres is still too good to not start regularly scoring sooner or later for the Blues. I really doubt he'll ever reach the heights of a couple years ago though -- that explosive quickness appears to be gone forever. I guess it's up to Chelsea fans to figure out as time goes on if he's worth 50m pounds -- at least there's plenty of joking around in their locker room, which apparently counts for something.


  • cozumel 13 March 2011 2:55AM

    I wouldn't be surprised if Torres never scores while playing for Chelsea. He never seems to be in scoring positions, his explosiveness and acceleration are shot to hell and he seems clueless when facing the goal, which means he has lost his finisher reflexes and instincts. I doubt very much that at 27 he will get it all back. His was the worst big purchase in modern football history. My guess that he will end up being a bench warmer in a matter of weeks and eventually end up playing in Turkey or the MLS.


  • cozumel 13 March 2011 3:01AM

    I'm thinking of great players who picked at the age of 25-26 and never returned to great form after that. Kaka and Ronaldinho come to mind, Raul started his decline around the age Torres is at now. I predict that Roonney will be in that situation in about a year or so.


  • MacChelsea 13 March 2011 3:03AM

    What happened to the football journalism these days? In the other article a "critic" is saying Liverpool will be pushing for the title because they beat Chelsea and ManU; now this is telling me Torres is a waste of money because he hasn't scored in the 5-6 games since he joined Chelsea. So what about Rooney who took half a season to find his feet? What about Drogba who took a whole season to settle? If managers are like Mr Doyle then there won't be any great player worth buying.


  • GnySgtHartman 13 March 2011 3:16AM

    Look at Owen, the guy peaked so early on and then injuries just hindered his potential; no one can honestly say that he went on to live up to expectations; not to say he has been garbage, but after his debut season and that first World cup there was a lot of hype and belief that this guy would achieve great things... but he didn't.
    I believe that confidence is a players' greatest attribute; you can be fast, strong on the ball, a top dribbler, but if you haven't got confidence you're not going to be adventurous, you'll lack the hunger to seize the glory.
    It looks to me like it'll take some time for Torres to get back on track, but once he starts enjoying his football and regaining some confidence he'll find the back of the net.
    However, will he go onto fufil his potential and live up to the high standards he set in his opening season, or will he become known as another Owen?... this is what interests me.



  • TheForst 13 March 2011 3:39AM

    Maybe its dawned on him that Chelsea won't win anything this season and once the fairplay rules come into play, Roman's wealth is irrelevant.
    ​
    I keep reading these articles quoting Torres wishing the journalist would go the next step and ask about this. I assume Torres will be fine and that Chelsea was going to spend that kind of cash on a striker after being spurned for El Kun and Kaka in years past. But if he replaces one of Anelka or Drogba, how much money replaces the other? And what cost replaces Lampard? Presumably Luiz and Alex are the future, but what's their cover cost? The Chelsea Academy hasn't been churning them out as planned.
    If UEFA's fair-play rules are taken seriously, Chelsea doesn't have near the financial base of Man Utd, Arsenal, or Liverpool, and they'll just revert to the old order, right? In this age of Mideast revolutions, will the Arab public warm to whom Sheik Mansour supports? Or am I absolutely cocked on this?


  • Shaunie2000 13 March 2011 3:45AM

    Most players who are brilliant before they're 20 start to go downhill after they pass 25.
    An averagely-skilful young player who makes it through will be one whose resilliance, work-ethic and sheer desire to play football will get them through as others fall by the wayside. But a teenage footie phenomenon's natural skill will get them through and into the first team without these aspects of their make-up being a consideration. When injuries and difficulties strike, it's in the grafter's make-up to bounce back, but the former boy wonders are no more or less likely to bounce back than those kids let go at 14. They don't all crash and burn Gazza-style, most fade quietly away.
    The thing is - it's these boy wonders on the cusp of fading who command the biggest transfer fees, because the chairmen of more-money-than-sense clubs have been dazzled by them at their best, eagerly pawing at their chequebook muttering "One day you'll be mine". Fernando Torres's current form isn't a blip, he peaked two years ago and he's been sliding slowly down the other side. But hell, he's Fernando Torres, he must be worth paying £50mil for.



  • windbag 13 March 2011 3:53AM

    The Fernando Torres was a stylish coupe but it started blowing smoke and missing gears over a year ago. Not many miles on the clock but has not been well maintained. Only buy if you can buy cheap.


  • Billium 13 March 2011 4:01AM

    Form is temporary, class is permanent? The Spaniard is showing he has neither.


  • ByEckorCooper 13 March 2011 4:05AM

    In the first half of the United v Chelsea game last week, Torres knocked a ball past Vidic and got nowhere. Three years ago, he'd have left him trailing. Explosive strikers are susceptible to injuries and burn out young. Then they have just their wits, which, is Torres' case, isn't worth £50 mill. Liverpool have sold at the right time.


  • xtywop 13 March 2011 4:09AM

    I think its unfair to judge him based on South Africa. He was not 100% and was not 1st choice. These are not excuses just facts.


  • windbag 13 March 2011 4:20AM

    He may return to his peak form, or he may not return to his peak form. Surely the point is, when you are paying top of the market price for something, you expect it to be in peak form at the time of purchase. If you are taking a risk on something that is performing at below peak levels, and has been doing so for quite a while, you expect a big discount.


  • lordpopmtop 13 March 2011 4:34AM

    you're silly Pauleee Doyleee. he just joined a team that busted the goals per season record last year so where is F is he to fit in at this time?
    Roman sees something he wants and buys it. It is an investment for the near future I would think. Bye Bye Didier, and as a cfc fan I have a love/hate relatiionship with Drogba. All the talent in the world and sometimes he becomes a recalcitrant shite.
    Torres gets more with Anelka in and I would expect to see that combo more in the future but your silly ultimatum just shows your lack of research when it comes to a team you don't really 'follow'.


  • Stealthbong 13 March 2011 4:49AM

    partlucid
    13 March 2011 12:44AM
    A glittering career undone by 6? poor weeks at a new club. What a ton of tripe...
    ​
    Read the article again dude. The subtext is that he has been shite for a year now.
    markodabeast
    13 March 2011 12:47AM
    Is Torres great? You don't pay 50 million pounds for a player if he is not great.
    ​
    "You" don't, but Roman Abramovich obviously does.
    JayP2010
    13 March 2011 12:53AM
    Clearly his legs have gone. Too many injuries. The two knee operations he had last year have finished him as a top player. Similar to Kaka, who is only 28 but also looks shot.
    ​
    Liverpool may not be very good at buying decent players, but they've plenty of form when it comes to knowing exactly when to get rid of spent ones.
    OwentheManc
    13 March 2011 1:32AM
    He needs to hit the bottle. I recommend Clairol Nice'n'Easy Summer Kiss. That or toilet duck yellow.
    ​
    It looks like he's been on the Dreamy Sleepy Nighty Snoozy Snooze


  • volveralpueblo 13 March 2011 5:18AM

    @xtywop
    If it's facts you're interested in, then for the record he was indeed 1st choice. He started the first five games for Spain in the WC. Only in the semi- and final did Pedro start in his place.
    And while I agree we can't judge him on his form coming off the injury then, I think it is fair to judge him on a full year's performance, and also on the attitude he's displayed. For instance, being out of form doesn't mean you can't work hard - indeed it should mean the opposite, as you should try to work your way into your game. This is something I haven't seen from Torres; he's been far too lazy for my taste whether playing for Spain, Liverpool or Chelsea. This attitude seems a far more worrying thing to me than his legs. Before you can get your speed back you have to work at it, and he doesn't seem to be making much of an effort.


  • oiler 13 March 2011 5:25AM

    This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.


  • BritinHK 13 March 2011 5:56AM

    Dalglish is no mug when it comes to 'seeing' a player. He will have observed that Torres was finished (much like Owen before him when Benitez let him go).
    There are plenty of examples of strikers never getting past their best before their supposedly prime years...Owen is a classic. These players tend to have started early like Torres and Owen.
    Galglish saw a gift horse coming and bit its hand off.


  • Meylan1158 13 March 2011 6:19AM

    The conclusion is spot on.
    Strikers have a useful, scoring life of 500 games and both and Torres is getting near to that. They started so young it is easy to forget how many games they have played.
    He lost his pace when Benitez forced him in to the gym to bulk up, he won't get that back, but how many of his goals were a result of that pace that took him round the defender - Vidic springs to mind.
    He is past it sadly.


  • Hardballer 13 March 2011 6:51AM

    Torres is the best piece of business ever done in the PL. Chelsea were sold a pup.
    With El Nino it's always somebody else's fault. He'll score a few goals, sure, but his old failings will reappear soon enough... especially if things don't go his way.


  • Olentzero 13 March 2011 6:57AM

    Good luck Chelsea with El Niñato. In the meantime, we'll make do with Duh-Duh-Duh-Duhduh-Duh-Da-Luis Suarez. We just can't get enough of him...


  • Meylan1158 13 March 2011 7:02AM

    Apologies - delete "and both" from above. I was going to include Owen but I couldn't find the relevant stats at the time. I do know he scored a goal every two starts up to just over 300 games - then it went pear-shaped.
    It takes a very very special player to reinvent themselves as Shearer did for example. He relied on speed and sharpness initially but as he filled out he turned himself into a genuine no.9 back to the goal target man, and he prolonged his career to just over 600 games remaining a genuine goal scorer ( 1 in 2 ). But he is a rare exception.


  • sensi 13 March 2011 7:19AM

    'Trying too hard?'
    I have never heard that excused used in connection with him. He's a fantastic player, but his poor displays for Liverpool were not the result of him trying too hard.


  • bluebaz 13 March 2011 7:22AM

    Liverpool may not be very good at buying decent players, but they've plenty of form when it comes to knowing exactly when to get rid of spent ones.
    ​
    Joe Cole.


  • windbag 13 March 2011 7:33AM

    How much would Abramovich have paid if Torres was in dazzling form and had no injury concerns?


  • MattLeHoosque 13 March 2011 7:34AM

    I realise that journalists have to write about something but is;
    "A player is currently not as good as he has been in the past and there are lots of reasons for that."
    really the best you could come up with?



 
Danny Higginbotham advances Stoke with a goal to beat West Ham






FA Cup Quarter-Final

Stoke City 2
  • Huth 12,
  • Higginbotham 62
West Ham United 1
  • Piquionne 30


  • Stuart James at Britannia Stadium
  • guardian.co.uk, Sunday 13 March 2011 16.13 GMT <li class="history">Article history Danny Higginbotham, centre celebrates with team-mates after scoring Stoke's second goal against West Ham. Photograph: Craig Brough/Action Images A late onslaught from West Ham United was unable to prevent Stoke City from reaching the FA Cup semi-finals for the first time since 1972 as a combination of Thomas Sorensen's brilliance and a slice of good fortune secured Tony Pulis and his players a trip to Wembley next month.
    Sorensen denied Victor Obinna, Robbie Keane and Carlton Cole in a frenetic final 25 minutes in which Matthew Upson also headed against the crossbar and West Ham had two penalty appeals turned down as the visitors pressed for an equaliser. Danny Higginbotham's deflected second-half free-kick, however, proved to be the difference on an afternoon when Mike Jones, the referee, made a number of contentious decisions.
    Stoke made much the better start and came close to taking the lead inside two minutes when Robert Green repelled Matthew Etherington's header from point-blank range. Huth was more ruthless from a similar position 10 minutes later, the German enjoying a free run on goal, after Jon Walters blocked off Upson, before emphatically heading Rory Delap's long throw-in past Green from inside the six-yard box for his eighth goal of the season.
    If West Ham were aggrieved with Walters's actions, it was nothing compared to the anger Stoke felt when Frédéric Piquionne equalised on the half-hour mark. Running onto Thomas Hitzlsperger's perfectly weighted pass, Piquionne appeared to bring the ball down with the top of his outstretched right arm before lifting it over the advancing Sorensen. Stoke complained furiously but the goal was allowed to stand.
    Within 11 seconds of the second half, it was West Ham's turn to rail against Jones after Parker was penalised for an innocuous looking challenge on Etherington in the area. Green, however, dived to his left to claw Etherington's poor kick to safety. Yet Stoke were quick to profit from another dead-ball opportunity, after Carlton Cole handled Jermaine Pennant's free-kick in the 62nd minute. Higginbotham took the resultant free-kick; Green got a strong hand to it but was unable to keep it out.
    Having played within themselves for much of this contest, West Ham came to life in the last quarter of the game. Sorensen brilliantly pushed Obinna's drive over in the 67th minute and moments later smothered Keane's effort at the near post. Jones then rejected two West Ham claims for a penalty in the space of five minutes, as Keane appealed for handball against Huth and James Tomkins protested that Walters dragged him to the ground.

    Football

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    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 4:34PM

      Dear oh dear where was Scott Parker today he bottled it on the big stage and went missing the Stoke Players had him in there back pocket he is without doubt the most over-hyped player in the premier league as soon as you needle him he buckles under the pressure shocking excuse of a captain!

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 4:40PM

      What makes me laugh is you have two pub pub league pundits like the muppets on Talksport people like Adrian Durham blowing smoke up Scott Parkers backside and inviteing hand picked callers on to praise him saying how he is so great and such a leader yet he goes missing time and time again the reason there in a relegation battle is he does not have the class or quality to change the game the best player on the pitch today for west ham was Rob Green while the kick and rush clogger Scott Parker gets all the raves reviews!

    • floozy 13 March 2011 4:41PM

      hes not the captain twat, and Stokes anti-football is shocking, shit ref too, ho hum...now for the league and concentration....

    • Alarming 13 March 2011 4:42PM

      As a neutral Stoke are an awful team to watch. They may be "efficient", they may make the most out of limited resources but my are they dreary. West Ham weren't that much better but played with far more imagination.
      Terrible refereeing throughout the match. West Ham's shout for a penalty which wasn't given was the only legitimate claim I thought.
      Great for the Stoke fans but please God no more.

    • gegsy 13 March 2011 4:43PM

      That'll be why he got Man of the Match then.
      Pulis obviously nobbled that ref at half time. it was blatant. Unbelievable decisions.

    • floozy 13 March 2011 4:43PM

      and also sid, maybe you have been watching Scotts performances for the past 3 years before raining drivel...get back on the glue son.

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 4:44PM

      Ive seen better pub league players on a saturday and sunday league in local leagues with more skill in there little toe nail than Scott Parker he has to be the most one dimensional player in a long time ive never seen him do anything of note to change a game once again in a big game today he bottled it what in gods name is he doing in a england team!

    • floozy 13 March 2011 4:47PM

      Sid, have you ever watched football before today? go play etch-o-sketch and draw a nice spanner..

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 4:48PM

      floozy oh here we go again another deluded West Ham supporter who thinks the sun shines out of the backside of the biggest kick and rush player in english football all this joke of a player Parker does is run around like a headless chicken ive seen more skill in a twenty pence piece the reason the hammers are in a relegation dog fight is because of one trick ponys like Parker!

    • Huddsbaggie 13 March 2011 4:49PM

      Sid, you didn't see Parker against the Baggies recently? It was on the box, if you are an armchair.

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 4:50PM

      Floozy by the way mate was that you who talksport radio and Adrian Durham rang up to come on the station and wax lyrical about the pub league player Scott Parker he sounded just like you a proper tool all he could say was SCOTT PARKER MMMMMMMMMMMMMM lol

    • gegsy 13 March 2011 4:50PM

      which is why he's been player of the year for the past 2 years and will probably be again this season.
      The reasons for West Ham being in the bottom 3 are many and varied but Scott parker isn't one of them.

    • floozy 13 March 2011 4:50PM

      ....no , obviously you know more about football than everyone in the whole universe, that messi is a bit shit too, dont know why all these pundits rave about him...

    • Huddsbaggie 13 March 2011 4:51PM

      I went back to work on a report today rather than watch any more of Stoke.
      I'd rather watch the baggies play pointless shite under Mowbray than Pulis' Stoke.

    • MikeytheEel 13 March 2011 4:51PM

      As a West Ham supporter can I just say how delighted I am to be free of the Cup. I was hoping for a B-team out there today, main concern was staying clear of injuries.
      Extra games not needed this year thanks very much, we've got more important matches to win.

    • IngmarBergkamp 13 March 2011 4:53PM

      Parker was penalised for an innocuous looking challenge on Etherington in the area.
      ​
      Call it what it was, a blatant dive by Etherington

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 4:54PM

      What makes me laugh is all the muppet pundits and hacks say what a leader Scott Parker is yet here was a chance against a two bob team like Stoke to beat them and get a semi-final appearance in wembley and wahat does Scott Parker do piss his pants!

    • Twoflower 13 March 2011 4:54PM

      Huth's challenge after Piquionne's fortuitous goal (yeah, as a Hammers fan I'm pretty sure that was hand ball) was veering on criminal. What a horrible game of football Stoke play. West Ham didn't play well but irrelevant of Mike Dean's raving mad referring they were Stoke's equal, though Matt Etherington never fails to prove he should not have been sold.
      Rory Delap. Now he's a pub player.

    • frosty8uk 13 March 2011 4:56PM

      What makes me laugh is all the muppet pundits and hacks say what a leader Scott Parker is yet here was a chance against a two bob team like Stoke to beat them and get a semi-final appearance in wembley and wahat does Scott Parker do piss his pants!
      ​
      Sid
      Is this like how your beloved Arsenal bottled out of the Carling Cup against Birmingham a couple of weeks back?

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 4:57PM

      floozy players like Lee catermole,Joey Barton,Barry Ferguson and lee Bowyer are far better players than the biggets bottle job in english football Scott Parker when it mattred today he went missing i knew he would chuck in the towel against Stoke he did not fancy the it today!

    • floozy 13 March 2011 4:59PM

      the lady doth protest too much, its ok sid,, if you fancy Scott, just say it, ..

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 5:02PM

      haha floozy you keep liveing in denial i feel sory for west ham there such a shambles as a club that they have to get cheap thrills out of a pub leagie player like Parker!

    • floozy 13 March 2011 5:04PM

      I would say we were out hustled for the first half an hour and didnt get our game together til after that. Obinna looked lost first half, Spector back to his anonymous self, (but he hasn't played for a while), and the others really didnt gel. Maybe lacking our new found talisman affected us as much as some of the strange reffing decisions made..

    • tonystoke 13 March 2011 5:06PM

      OK Stoke may sometimes resemble a pub team, but... they're the best ****ing pub team in the World

    • goodsavedave 13 March 2011 5:08PM

      SidVicious123
      Has Scott Parker run off with your wife or something? These posts are bizarre.
      He may not be a world beater but he is in an England midfield with Gareth Barry and Michael Carrick. If you want to criticize one-dimensional English midfielders I wouldn't have started With Parker.

    • floozy 13 March 2011 5:08PM

      Is the purple Tweeny your favorite Sid? Do you want some red sauce with your fishfingers? Did you drink all that Lucozade by yourself? etc etc

    • goodsavedave 13 March 2011 5:13PM

      He maybe an overrated player, but he gives better half time team talks and is significantly more influential on the players than Avram Grant.
      I remember whu fans booing the team off after a home draw on the last day of the season a few years ago because they weren't "kicking on" under Curbishley in the league. I think they were ninth at the time. Curbishley is vastly superior manager to Grant. This is one relegation WHam will deserve unfortunately.

    • SidVicious123 13 March 2011 5:13PM

      LOL goodsavedave im just giveing my honest opinion and assesment of a very mediocre player who is so over-hyped by the boased pundits and hacks we have all because he is english the best player for West Ham has been Robert Green this year but he gets no credit i hear west ham muppets criticise other players who give there all players like Carlton Cole yet they get slated by so called fans and suppoerters while one dimensional Parker gets all the plaudits yet he is the biggest bottle job going!

    • floozy 13 March 2011 5:26PM

      But Sid , what do you think of Scott Parker? Do you think he's overrated?

    • Twoflower 13 March 2011 5:28PM

      In what way is Scott Parker one dimensional? Can I presume your evidence is anecdotal at best? Check the stats. He had a mediocre game today and he did not run the game, but he certainly did last week at Upton Park. Stoke did well to run him out of the game, but responsibility certainly falls on Parker for being so careless with possession.
      I don't listen to much punditry at all, as so rarely is any quality analysis thrown West Ham's way, but I still rate Parker highly. Many teams would benefit from his presence. What accounts for my opinion of Parker then, if we're all, in your opinion, powerless empty vessels reverberating the sacred tenets of Talksport? Is Andy Gray sneaking into my house and slotting a hypnosis tape into my ears while I sleep at night? And why are your posts as overstated and jingoistic as the hack analysis you pretend to purport?


 
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