Gama
JF-Expert Member
- Jan 9, 2010
- 13,266
- 4,716
[h=2]Patrick Karegeya last interview with RFI: "We know where the missiles are gone"[/h]
January 2, 2014 at 10:26am
Former chief of foreign intelligence Rwanda, Patrick Karegeya fled the country in 2007 and now lives in exile in South Africa. As General Faustin Kayumba Nyamwasa, he accused Kagame of being responsible for the attack in April 1994 that killed Juvenal Kabyarimana. Both are willing to meet the French judge in charge of the investigation, Marc Trévidic.
Interview by RFI special correspondent in South Africa; Sonia Rolley.
Since when did you know President Kagame?
It is very long. We were at school together. He was two classes above me. So it's been over thirty years.
And you worked together in the Ugandan army, right?
Yes, we worked in the same department; the Uganda military intelligence.
When did you decide to take up arms?
I think it all started in 1987. Fred Rwigyema was still alive and there were other officers older than us. They organized meetings, decided who among the officers had to attend. So yes, we participated in meetings, and then we returned to the field to see what was happening. And we gave them our report.
When did President Kagame took control of operations?And why him?
Why him? Because all those above him are dead. So it's rightful order. When it all began, it was not there. But when he came back, Fred is dead and the other too, so it was he who took command because he was top of the list. We all thought it was desirable to take the lead in and that's what he did.
So there was no objection at the time?
No, no. It would be difficult for the military to challenge such a decision, it is not like politics.And do not forget that we were at war, there was no place for political or democratic considerations. And it's not as if he took the lead. There was the RPF and the Rwandan Patriotic Army. He took control of the APR and the rest later. But that it happened gradually over the years, during the rebellion. Then they took power. And it was not until 1998 he headed the RPF.He managed to get rid of everyone and even his boss at the time, Bizimungu, who was president. And we must all plead guilty because it happened before our eyes. But as we were at war, nobody had the courage to say anything or to convene a meeting for that. So almost all civilians were ejected from the movement. It became a military institution that has retained the RPF name.
But we still feel Kagame was in charge of everything, even at the time when Pasteur Bizimungu was President.Is that all that was not decorum?
No, not exactly. He was at the head the army and everything depended on the army. Obviously, all those who caused political problems, were accused of first jeopardize the war effort and not being sufficiently patriotic. And very few people had the courage to say "there is military action and there is politics." So he really took control of everything and nobody dared to chalneg him or even dared to contradict whatever he said. He became the strong man as they say.
Why didn't you challenge those decisions?
Best or not, it was already in place. So we were content to try to fix things, to convince him not to do some terrible things he had in mind. That's why we did some collateral damage. We tried to tell him that it was not good, it was not the right way to do things. But because he had all the powers, he began to see all reviews or alternative suggestions as challenge to his authority. It became clear that at some point, there was no difference between him and the State. As you say in France: "The state is me." And now that he has all the powers, he behaves as an absolute monarch. And no one can challenge his decisions.
Now you accuse Kagame of being behind the attack on the plane that carried th elate President; Juvenal Habyarimana.Do you have any evidence of his involvement?
If we did not, we would not say that. Of course, we do. We do not speculate. We are not like those who try to investigate, who say that the missile had Kanombe (note: FAR military camp, the Rwandan army at the time). We know where the missiles were fired, who directed the shot. We do not speculate. We are talking about something that we know.
But why don't you go public?Why keep it to yourself?
We do not keep it to ourselves. There has been no investigation worthy of the name. We do not want to deliver it all to the media. Remember that all this will affect people. People who lost their lives had families, friends. If I tell you, of course, you will publish and it will not help the victims. So we always said it was to be part of a criminal investigation, we can say in that context what we know.
Did judge Trévidic ever contacted you on this matter?
No, the judges never came to us. If they do, we will say what we know. But you can not force their hand. If they want to hear us, they will come. And do not forget that these are French and that victims are Rwandese. So we also think it would be better if Rwandese do this work ... But for that, of course, can only be done after the departure of Kagame. We do not expect there to be a Rwandan judicial inquiry at the moment. The French have taken the liberty to do so, but none of them came to see us.
Were you involved in this attack?
No, but that does not mean I do not know what happened.
Where you, by virtue of your position, not to prevent the attack?
Prevent it? No, I could not be opposed to it. He had decided. And I could never say do not do it. He was sure of his decision. But know that, yes, we know.
But why take his plane down?
He believes that all opponents must die ... And at that time, Habyarimana was on his only obstacle way to power. Habyarimana had signed a power-sharing agreement, even if trying to save time, it was not a reason to kill him. We must follow the process and make sure it goes through. Many people said he was trying to save time, I'm not trying to defend it. But even if he erred, he did not deserve to die.
You were head of foreign intelligence for ten years and, in 2004, you were relieved of your duties.Can you explain why?
This is the result of a series of disagreements with President Kagame on his reading of the country in terms of governance, human rights and also about the situation in Congo ... It lasted long enough. At one point, I realized that we were not going anywhere. I asked him to let me make my life, he refused. Three years later, he ended up throwing me in jail. Not once, but twice. So it came to political disagreements, nothing personal.
Nothing personal?But you were friends...
Of course we were friends, but I was in government. I was not there to praise. As the intelligence chief, I think what I could do best was to tell him the truth, that truth is bitter. The fact that he could not accept it and he turned against me...
What abominable truths did you tell him for example?
The usual, I told him what we were doing was not good in terms of justice, democracy, freedom of the press. There was the second Congo war. We talked about it and never agreed. But because our disagreemnts didnt go public, no one realized that there was a kind of cold war between him and me.
So there has been years of dissension within the RPF?
Yes, but that was happening between the military. Civilians knew nothing. And it was not just me. Others were also unhappy. Some have paid the price. Others decided to remain silent forever. It is a matter of choice. If you speak publicly, the consiquences are bad. Some are dead, others were imprisoned, others in exile. And it will continue...
You said that you opposed the second Congo war. So you favored the first?
Yes, definitely. There were perfectly legitimate reasons to carry it. Because of what was happening on the other side of the border, in camps, reorganization (note: ex-FAR-Interahamwe). We either had to solve the problem, or they would take care of us. This one was legitimate. Mobutu supported them. As regards the second war, it was enough for us. And as you see, we did not get any results. We're still at the same point. RCD, CNDP, M23. There will probably also be M27 ... It does not help the Congo. It does not help Rwanda. It brings only suffering in the region.
Bosco Ntaganda, who was a leader of the CNDP is before the International Criminal Court;Will you testify in court?
I do not know why I should. But if the court considers that it can learn something from me, I will cooperate with it. But I think that the ICC does not consider the right persons. It should prosecute Kagame and not Ntaganda.
Why?
Because it was him who chose Ntaganda from Rwanda and sent him to eastern Congo. So why deal with the symptoms and not the disease?
So you say that Bosco Ntaganda is Rwandan and not Congolese?
Yes, of course he is Rwandan. He was in the Rwandan army, he was chosen and sent as an envoy to Lubanga with a stock pile of weapons. So when he caused all these problems, he is the culprit. It should not be Ntaganda, but Kagame. Ntaganda was just been deployed. These events are the responsibility of the commander.
What command was he under and Where was it based?
It is as if we had several. He was under the Rwandan defense forces. He was sergeant. Most of those who led the rebellion came from Rwanda anyway. Ntaganda is not a special case. Nkunda, Ntaganda, they were trained in Rwanda... That is why I say they do not deal with good people. They were made, that's all
Bosco Ntaganda fled Rwanda and sought refuge at the embassy of the United States. Was it with the help of the Rwandan government?
No, he wanted to save his skin. If he went to the Rwanda government, it would have been a different story. I do not think they would have surrendered him to the International Criminal Court.
Why did you flee the country in 2007?
I had already tested the prison twice. And I was held in solitary confinement. Twice in two years. When I came out, I was taken to the Ministry of Defence, I was assaulted by officers, some of them are in prison today, others have problems. Anyway, the important fact is that they told me that Kagame would take care of me forever. He was still worried about me. They told me that if I wanted life, I had to leave. I had no reason to doubt. So I left. And in fact, it was true. He has tried to do it here. This is why he shot my colleague
(note: General Faustin Kayumba Nyamwasa). I was lucky to get out without a scratch.
Former Rwanda Spy Chief; Patrick Karegeya
Share
January 2, 2014 at 10:26am
Former chief of foreign intelligence Rwanda, Patrick Karegeya fled the country in 2007 and now lives in exile in South Africa. As General Faustin Kayumba Nyamwasa, he accused Kagame of being responsible for the attack in April 1994 that killed Juvenal Kabyarimana. Both are willing to meet the French judge in charge of the investigation, Marc Trévidic.
Interview by RFI special correspondent in South Africa; Sonia Rolley.
Since when did you know President Kagame?
It is very long. We were at school together. He was two classes above me. So it's been over thirty years.
And you worked together in the Ugandan army, right?
Yes, we worked in the same department; the Uganda military intelligence.
When did you decide to take up arms?
I think it all started in 1987. Fred Rwigyema was still alive and there were other officers older than us. They organized meetings, decided who among the officers had to attend. So yes, we participated in meetings, and then we returned to the field to see what was happening. And we gave them our report.
When did President Kagame took control of operations?And why him?
Why him? Because all those above him are dead. So it's rightful order. When it all began, it was not there. But when he came back, Fred is dead and the other too, so it was he who took command because he was top of the list. We all thought it was desirable to take the lead in and that's what he did.
So there was no objection at the time?
No, no. It would be difficult for the military to challenge such a decision, it is not like politics.And do not forget that we were at war, there was no place for political or democratic considerations. And it's not as if he took the lead. There was the RPF and the Rwandan Patriotic Army. He took control of the APR and the rest later. But that it happened gradually over the years, during the rebellion. Then they took power. And it was not until 1998 he headed the RPF.He managed to get rid of everyone and even his boss at the time, Bizimungu, who was president. And we must all plead guilty because it happened before our eyes. But as we were at war, nobody had the courage to say anything or to convene a meeting for that. So almost all civilians were ejected from the movement. It became a military institution that has retained the RPF name.
But we still feel Kagame was in charge of everything, even at the time when Pasteur Bizimungu was President.Is that all that was not decorum?
No, not exactly. He was at the head the army and everything depended on the army. Obviously, all those who caused political problems, were accused of first jeopardize the war effort and not being sufficiently patriotic. And very few people had the courage to say "there is military action and there is politics." So he really took control of everything and nobody dared to chalneg him or even dared to contradict whatever he said. He became the strong man as they say.
Why didn't you challenge those decisions?
Best or not, it was already in place. So we were content to try to fix things, to convince him not to do some terrible things he had in mind. That's why we did some collateral damage. We tried to tell him that it was not good, it was not the right way to do things. But because he had all the powers, he began to see all reviews or alternative suggestions as challenge to his authority. It became clear that at some point, there was no difference between him and the State. As you say in France: "The state is me." And now that he has all the powers, he behaves as an absolute monarch. And no one can challenge his decisions.
Now you accuse Kagame of being behind the attack on the plane that carried th elate President; Juvenal Habyarimana.Do you have any evidence of his involvement?
If we did not, we would not say that. Of course, we do. We do not speculate. We are not like those who try to investigate, who say that the missile had Kanombe (note: FAR military camp, the Rwandan army at the time). We know where the missiles were fired, who directed the shot. We do not speculate. We are talking about something that we know.
But why don't you go public?Why keep it to yourself?
We do not keep it to ourselves. There has been no investigation worthy of the name. We do not want to deliver it all to the media. Remember that all this will affect people. People who lost their lives had families, friends. If I tell you, of course, you will publish and it will not help the victims. So we always said it was to be part of a criminal investigation, we can say in that context what we know.
Did judge Trévidic ever contacted you on this matter?
No, the judges never came to us. If they do, we will say what we know. But you can not force their hand. If they want to hear us, they will come. And do not forget that these are French and that victims are Rwandese. So we also think it would be better if Rwandese do this work ... But for that, of course, can only be done after the departure of Kagame. We do not expect there to be a Rwandan judicial inquiry at the moment. The French have taken the liberty to do so, but none of them came to see us.
Were you involved in this attack?
No, but that does not mean I do not know what happened.
Where you, by virtue of your position, not to prevent the attack?
Prevent it? No, I could not be opposed to it. He had decided. And I could never say do not do it. He was sure of his decision. But know that, yes, we know.
But why take his plane down?
He believes that all opponents must die ... And at that time, Habyarimana was on his only obstacle way to power. Habyarimana had signed a power-sharing agreement, even if trying to save time, it was not a reason to kill him. We must follow the process and make sure it goes through. Many people said he was trying to save time, I'm not trying to defend it. But even if he erred, he did not deserve to die.
You were head of foreign intelligence for ten years and, in 2004, you were relieved of your duties.Can you explain why?
This is the result of a series of disagreements with President Kagame on his reading of the country in terms of governance, human rights and also about the situation in Congo ... It lasted long enough. At one point, I realized that we were not going anywhere. I asked him to let me make my life, he refused. Three years later, he ended up throwing me in jail. Not once, but twice. So it came to political disagreements, nothing personal.
Nothing personal?But you were friends...
Of course we were friends, but I was in government. I was not there to praise. As the intelligence chief, I think what I could do best was to tell him the truth, that truth is bitter. The fact that he could not accept it and he turned against me...
What abominable truths did you tell him for example?
The usual, I told him what we were doing was not good in terms of justice, democracy, freedom of the press. There was the second Congo war. We talked about it and never agreed. But because our disagreemnts didnt go public, no one realized that there was a kind of cold war between him and me.
So there has been years of dissension within the RPF?
Yes, but that was happening between the military. Civilians knew nothing. And it was not just me. Others were also unhappy. Some have paid the price. Others decided to remain silent forever. It is a matter of choice. If you speak publicly, the consiquences are bad. Some are dead, others were imprisoned, others in exile. And it will continue...
You said that you opposed the second Congo war. So you favored the first?
Yes, definitely. There were perfectly legitimate reasons to carry it. Because of what was happening on the other side of the border, in camps, reorganization (note: ex-FAR-Interahamwe). We either had to solve the problem, or they would take care of us. This one was legitimate. Mobutu supported them. As regards the second war, it was enough for us. And as you see, we did not get any results. We're still at the same point. RCD, CNDP, M23. There will probably also be M27 ... It does not help the Congo. It does not help Rwanda. It brings only suffering in the region.
Bosco Ntaganda, who was a leader of the CNDP is before the International Criminal Court;Will you testify in court?
I do not know why I should. But if the court considers that it can learn something from me, I will cooperate with it. But I think that the ICC does not consider the right persons. It should prosecute Kagame and not Ntaganda.
Why?
Because it was him who chose Ntaganda from Rwanda and sent him to eastern Congo. So why deal with the symptoms and not the disease?
So you say that Bosco Ntaganda is Rwandan and not Congolese?
Yes, of course he is Rwandan. He was in the Rwandan army, he was chosen and sent as an envoy to Lubanga with a stock pile of weapons. So when he caused all these problems, he is the culprit. It should not be Ntaganda, but Kagame. Ntaganda was just been deployed. These events are the responsibility of the commander.
What command was he under and Where was it based?
It is as if we had several. He was under the Rwandan defense forces. He was sergeant. Most of those who led the rebellion came from Rwanda anyway. Ntaganda is not a special case. Nkunda, Ntaganda, they were trained in Rwanda... That is why I say they do not deal with good people. They were made, that's all
Bosco Ntaganda fled Rwanda and sought refuge at the embassy of the United States. Was it with the help of the Rwandan government?
No, he wanted to save his skin. If he went to the Rwanda government, it would have been a different story. I do not think they would have surrendered him to the International Criminal Court.
Why did you flee the country in 2007?
I had already tested the prison twice. And I was held in solitary confinement. Twice in two years. When I came out, I was taken to the Ministry of Defence, I was assaulted by officers, some of them are in prison today, others have problems. Anyway, the important fact is that they told me that Kagame would take care of me forever. He was still worried about me. They told me that if I wanted life, I had to leave. I had no reason to doubt. So I left. And in fact, it was true. He has tried to do it here. This is why he shot my colleague
(note: General Faustin Kayumba Nyamwasa). I was lucky to get out without a scratch.
Former Rwanda Spy Chief; Patrick Karegeya
Share
Joy Marthan, Deogratius Odokel Opolot and 2 others like this.
