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Tujadili Mradi wa magadi wa ziwa Natron

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Idimi, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Maoni Yangu
    Kwa ninavyojua, eneo la Ziwa Natron linalindwa na mkataba wa Ramsar,ambao lengo lake ni kulinda maeneo oevu yote duniani, hivyo kuweka mradi eneo hili ni kukiuka mkataba huo.
    Maelezo zaidi yanapatikana katika tovuti yao "www.ramsar.org"
     
  2. M

    MzalendoHalisi JF-Expert Member

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    IDIMI,

    1. Nchi zote duniani zinaendelea kwa kutumia raslimali zao- sasa issue iwe tupunguzeje athari za mazingira? Manake ni shughuli chache sana anazifanya binadamu bila kuharibu mazingira?

    2. Maoni- tumechelewa kuanza kuchimba- lobbists ndo wanarudisha nyuma maendeleo saa ingine! Muhimu tuangalia taifa tutapata faida kiasi gani ktk huu uwezaji- isiwe kama Bugwazi!

    3. Watalii hao hao ndo wanasema tusijenge barabara kupitia Serengereti ili wao waweze kuja kuwaangalia wanyama!

    Contribution of Tanzania ktk Mabadiliko ya Hali ya Hewa duniani bado ni 0.01%!
     
  3. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Sawasawa Mkuu,
    Ila tuangalie, hayo madini tuliyochimba mpaka sasa yametufaidishaje? Haya magadi yatabadili nini ambacho tumeshindwa kupata toka katika migodi mingine? Madini mengine yametufikisha wapi mpaka sasa? Je mkataba huu na hawa jamaa hautakuwa kama ule wa Buzwagi? Shida iko hapo, nadhani tungepembua kwanza mikataba ya nyuma kabla ya kuukubali huu wa magadi kwanza.
     
  4. B

    Boney E.M. JF-Expert Member

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    Nimekuwa nikifuatilia sana mjadala wa ujenzi wa mradi huu na kuhudhuria kongamano lililoandaliwa na Mamlaka ya Mazingira yaliyofanyika pale Karimjee. Ukweli ni kwamba mradi huu ni rasilimali kubwa sana kwa nchi yetu kwani magadi yale yatakuwa chachu ya kuanzisha viwanda vingine kadhaa. Ikiwa Kenya wanacho kiwanda kama hicho tunachotaka kujenga iweje leo Tanzania tukitaka kujenga iwe issue kubwa na je hao ndege wamehama Kenya? Hizi ni njama za mabeberu za kudhoofisha juhudi za kujikwamua kiuchumi. Wale waliopata bahati ya kuhudhuria kwenye kongamano Karimjee tar 23.01.08 utaona kwamba wale 'wenyeji'wa eneo hilo ni dhahiri wamenunuliwa na wapinzani wa ujenzi wa kiwanda hicho. Wamelipiwa nauli na malazi ili kuja Dar kutoa maoni yao. Ielewweke kuwa wazalishaji duniani wa soda ash wana 'cartel' au umoja wao na ili bei ya soda isishuke wanapiga vita juhudi zozote za kufungua miradi mipya duniani kama wa Lake Natron. Tukijadili hili tuwe macho tusitekwe na hisia potofu. Ripoti ya mazingira na faida za kiuchumi hasa 'backward' na 'forward' linkages viangaliwe kwa umakini sana. Faida itakayopatikana kwa ujezi huo ni kubwa kuliko hiyo ya utalii inayozungumziwa. Let us be bold.
     
  5. F

    Fundi Mchundo JF-Expert Member

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    Are you serious?
     
  6. F

    Fundi Mchundo JF-Expert Member

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    Ni mawazo potofu kuamini kuwa sababu kubwa ya kulinda hao Lesser Flamingoes ni kwa ajili ya watalii. Kwa spidi tunayoangamiza species zilizo asili kwetu sitashangaa kama wajukuu wetu hawataenda ulaya kujua Flamingo yukoje? Rasilimali hii ni kwa vizazi vyetu vinavyokuja.

    Miaka ya nyuma muwekezaji maarufu aliyejulikana kama John Nolan alipendekeza kuanzisha prawn farming huko Rufiji. Wanasiasa kama kawaida yao wakaupigia debe sana mradi huu. Isingekuwa juhudi za hao mnaowasimanga sasa hivi Rufiji ingeisha kufa na Nolan angehamia kwingine. Hicho mnachotaka kuvuna ni finite na kitakwisha siku moja. kikiisha mtafanya nini? Mtaenda kuwaomba hao flamingo warudi?

    Kaangalie madhara ya barabara huko Mikumi ndiyo utajua ni kitu gani kinachopingwa hapa. Tatizo letu ni kuwa hatuambiliki mpaka hapo tunapoharibu. Tukishaharibu ndiyo tunarudi na kuwalaamu kwa kutushauri vibaya.

    Huu mradi ni bomu. Hiyo miradi ya huko Serengeti na yenyewe hivyo hivyo ni myopic. Itatutokea puani.
     
  7. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Kuna swali halijajibiwa hapo juu.
    Kwamba: Hayo madini ambayo tushachimba mpaka sasa (dhahabu, makaa ya mawe, almasi, Tanzanite, bati nk) yametusaidiaje kama nchi? Tumeondokana na umasikini kutokana na migodi hiyo? Je tunaamini magadi yatatuondoa kutoka katika masikiniyulio nao? Naomba majibu tafadhali, msikwepe hoja.
    Soma hapa, uone kama mradi una faida ama la! "http://www.freemedia.co.tz/daima/2008/1/29/makala7.php"
     
  8. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Fundi,
    Nimeshindwa kupata pointi katika ujumbe wako huu! Umechanganya mambo mengi sana kiasi kwamba nashindwa kuelewa unapinga nini na kutetea nini. Be specific please!
     
  9. j

    justice-lover Member

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    Haya MzalendoHalisi, ID yako na unachosema ni totally opposite.
    Anyway its all about perception.
    I think the problem with us Tanzanians, is that we lack the knack of having long term plans, thats why we cant see all that we are going to destroy in short term plans.

    Who needs a 5 star hotel there, the tourists come all the way here to experience rugged life, including rough off roads, tents, people the maasai and other local residents not stay in a "Sun city" lookalike hotel.

    Please let us wake up and see what we are bound to destroy here. For the love of our future generation.

    My heart breaks for the country that is slowly slipping away........
     
  10. j

    justice-lover Member

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    Let them tell us what we have benefited from all the mines and minerals that we have so far depleted maybe we might be convienced....
     
  11. F

    Fundi Mchundo JF-Expert Member

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    In a nutshell. Naupinga huu mradi kwa nguvu zangu zote. Naamini tunachoangalia hapa ni short term gains bila kujali madhara yake ya muda mrefu. Uwezekano wa extinction wa lesser flamingoes upo sana maana hii ndiyo breeding ground yake iliyobaki. Wenzetu wana miradi ya kukusanya mbegu za wanyama wote duniani Kinachoweza kutokea ni wao kuchukua mayai ya hawa ndege na kuyakuza huko ulaya. Kwa sababu hawa ndege hawatakuwepo tena huku kwetu, vijukuu wetu itabidi waende ulaya kuwaona. Hii hali imeishaanza kutokea kwenye mimea yetu. Botanical gardens za ulaya zina aina nyingi ya miti kutoka kwetu ambayo huku kwetu imeishakuwa adimu. Mifano mingine ni vyura wa kihansi. Hatunao tena, wako ulaya. Mwingine ni vifaru. Ilibidi tuletewe vifaru kutoka Afrika Kusini kujazia kwenye mbuga ya sadani. Mimi ningependa wajukuu zangu waweze kuviona vyote hivi hapa kwao na si kusimuliwa tu kuwa tulikuwa navyo.

    Mfano wa John Nolan ni kuonyesha vipi uroho mwingine ulikuwa almanusura uteketeze mikoko ya Rufiji. Ni juhudi za wanamazingira ambao kwa kutumia mifano kutoka Sri lanka na kwingine walihamasisha wananchi kupinga mradi huo kwa juhudi zote. Mashamba ya prawn yanaathiri sana mazingira kwa kukata mazalio asili na kuongeza sumu kwenye eneo. Ni kama ukulima wa kutumia mbolea chumvi. Mapato yanakuwa sana kwa muda mfupi lakini uwezo wa ardhi kujirutubuisha unapungua. Mkulima anakuwa tegemezi wa mbolea na madawa, ambapo awali hakuwa hivyo.

    Kuhusu barabara Serengeti. Nimetoa mfano wa barabara iendayo Iringa kupitia Mikumi na jinsi wanyama pori wanavyouawa kila siku. Wote tunajijua tunavyoendesha.Pamoja na hayo, kila eco-system inauwezo wake. Kwa kuongeza watu katika eco-system nyeti kama ile ni kuua bata anayetaga mayai ya dhahabu. Huu mradi nao naupinga kwa nguvu zote.

    Umenielewa sasa?
     
  12. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Ndugu Fundi,
    Hapo tunaongea lugha moja, kumbe na wewe ni mfurukutwa wa rasilimali na mazingira kama mimi. Mie napinga sana suala la kuendekeza pesa na kusahau uhai, heshima na utu. Ni aibu sana eti kwenda kuchukua vifaru kule Kruger Afrika Kusini mwaka 2001, kisa? Eti sisi tumewinda mpaka wamekwisha! Shame on us! Sasa hawa Lesser Flamingo (korongo wadogo) wakiiisha Tanzania tuende kukopa Ujerumani katika 'zoo'?
    What a shame!

    [media]http://www.jamboforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1060&stc=1&d=1201696636[/media]

    [media]http://www.jamboforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1061&stc=1&d=1201696636[/media]
     

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  13. M

    MzalendoHalisi JF-Expert Member

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    Fundi,

    "We meet the needs of present generation without jeopardizing the needs of Future Generations'- Our Common Futute- Bruthland Commission, 1990.

    Kwa kifupi..hatuwezi kukaa tu tukakalia madini, mafuta, land nk kwa kuhofia tu athari za wanyama! Tunapozalisha kwa manufaa ya sasa pia tuangalie future- haimanishi basi tulale na tuongope eti tutayaharibu mazingira! Saudia na Iran leo wasichimbe mafuta kwa kuwa yataisha?

    The largest contributor to effects of CFCs ni US which contributes 25%, Tz tunacontibute .01%. Je US waache kuzalisha lei in the name of environmental protection? No- wazalishe but wawe sensitive to environmetal concerns!

    Hata magadi ya Natron yachimbwe tu- ila tuwe conssious na hao Flamingo! Sasa rate ya dereforastaion Tz inasemekana for the last 50 years over 50% of natural forests zimetumika ktk human activities -je watu leo kule kijijini tuseme wasikate miti kupata kuni kupikia? Je wapikie nini? Alternative sources za energy kupikia ndo hupunguza kuni dependence!

    Nachotaka kusema ni kuwa, lobbists, western advocates have brainwashed our critical thinking- wakati watu wetu wanakufa kwa njaa na umaskini- wao wanasema wanyamamuhimu zaidi- how many poor African die? Yet leo akifa Ndege mmoja kule Natron utaona ktk TV BBC na CNN!

    Well nimeangalia Magadi Natrion ktk larger picture!

    Wacha EIA zinafanyike na kutoa ushauri wa Magadi project- my concern ni kuwa je Tz watabenefit vipi na huu mradi? This is another question!
     
  14. M

    Mbalamwezi JF-Expert Member

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    1.Kabla hatujaenda mbali na mradi huu, kunakuwa na tathmini ya athari za kimazingira inayofanywa na mamlaka husika. Kazi hii ni ya kitaalamu na hutoa majibu yanayotuwezesha kufanya miradi tukijua matokeo yake ni nini. Tathmini hii inasemaje?

    2. Kenya wana mradi wa namna hii kwa upande wao, lakini ziwa Natron hilo hilo. Wamewezaje bila kuathiri mazingira?

    3. Kuna msukumo mkubwa wa kuzuia mradi huu juu ya athari za mazingira toka kwenye taasisi za Kenya. Je, ni hatua za dhati kulaani ujenzi huu na si mbinu za kibiashara?
     
  15. D

    DAR si LAMU JF-Expert Member

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    ..issue iwe mradi huu utatunufaisha vipi na tutazuia vipi uchafuzi au uharibifu wa mazingira.

    ..nyingine ni siasa tu! ndio,baadhi ya wanaojiita wanamazingira ni wanasiasa "wakubwa" tusipotezane malengo,tuwe wakweli!
     
  16. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu,
    Hii ripoti ipo maktaba ya taifa, ila sijaiona. Ukiachilia hilo, Tanzania ilisaini mkataba wa Ramsar wa kulinda ardhi oevu, ikiwemo eneo la Ziwa Natron ambapo ndio tuna mpango wa kuchimba magadi. Hii ripoti (EIA) imefanywa na hao wawekezaji, huenda inaegemea upande wao, sitashangaa. Kama una nafasi ipitie.
     
  17. F

    Fundi Mchundo JF-Expert Member

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    Ukweli gani unaoutaka? Wewe ulie mkweli, si utatajie hao wanamazingira wanasiasa wakubwa wenye hidden agenda?Ukielezwa unakimbilia kusema hizi zote ni longolongo mpaka hapo maji yatakapowafika shingoni.

    Wamarekani wana mafuta kibao Alaska. Mpaka leo wanagombana kuhusu namna ya kuyavuna. Kinachogota ni swali kuwa kweli waharibu mazingira huko Alaska kwa ajili ya mafuta? George W na wenzake pamoja na wingi wao wameshindwa ku'convince' senate kwamba hii ni price ambayo taifa inastahili kulipa. Na huko hakuna watu. Ni misitu na wanyama.

    Kuna wazo kuwa kwa vile sisi tunachangia kidogo katika uharibifu wa mazingira basi na sisi tuachiwe tuchafue hadi hapo tutakapofikia stage ya wenzetu. Projections zote kuhusu athari za global warming ni kuwa watakaoathirika zaidi ni wale waishio kwenye tropics. Pataongezeka ukame na El Ninos. Nchi za magharibi hazitaathirika sana na pengine zitafaidika kwa vile watakuwa na muda mrefu wa kuotesha mazao. Sasa hivi wenzetu wameishaanza kupanga mikakati ya namna ya kushughulikia wakimbizi watakaotoka katika nchi zitakazoathirika zaidi na global warming. Tanzania tupo kwenye mkondo huo.

    Hawa ndege wanaozungumziwa wanataga katika sehemu moja tu Afrika Mashariki na pengine duniani na ni hapo Lake Natron. Hatuwezi kuwachukua na kuwahamishia mahali kwingine wakati tunaendelea na mradi huu. Mazingira yanayowafanya waje L. Natron yakishaharibika hawatarudi tena. Sasa mataifa ambayo yanaweza kuingia gharama ya kutengeneza mazingira kama hayo artificially ni huko kwenye nchi za magharibi. Hawa wana uwezo wa kuwachukua baadhi ya ndege na kuwakuza huko. Mnaamini kuwa baadaye watatuhurumia baada ya mhindi kuondoka na kutuachia ziwa lililoishakufa? La, wajukuu zetu italazimika kwenda huko huko kuwaona. Lakini kama kawaida yetu, kwenye ulaji tunaoona wa bure, hatusikii wala hatuambiliki. Na ni wepesi wa kuvurumusha matusi. Ni sisi tuliomtukana Clare Short alipotuonya kuwa mradi wa rada ni bomu! Leo hii tunajifanya kulia machozi ya mamba na kunyosheana vidole vya ufisadi! Tumeishaonywa. Ni uamuzi wetu kama watu wazima kusikiliza au kukataa. Mungu atunusuru na hili tena.
     
  18. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Fundi,
    Kwanza nikuponzeze kwa kutoa ufafanuzi murua katika suala hili la Ziwa Natron kwa mara nyingine. Tusijebaki kusaga meno miaka michache baadaye baada ya kuingia mikataba feki na kuharibi kabisa ikolojia ya eneo la Ziwa Natron na kusema "Tungejua"! ambayo Wahehe husema "Ngalinzeela"! Unajua ili kuweza kuwaelewesha hawa jamaa wasioona umuhimu wa suala hili, inabidi tuwaeleweshe kwanza mfumo ikolojia unavyofanya kazi. Kwamba, mimea na wanyama huwa tunategemeana. Wale korongo wadogo pale Manyara wanategemea lishe yao kutokana na mwani (algae), mimea ambayo hustawi vyema zaidi katika eneo lile. Na hawa korongo, kama unavyosema, kwa hapa Afrika Mashariki wanastawi na kuzaliana kwa wingi hapo Ziwa Natron. Sasa kama ukisema ukaushe ziwa lile kwa kuchimba magadi na kuwahamisha korongo utakuwa umeharibu kabisa mfumo ikolojia wa eneo lile, utaua mwani na korongo, kwani wanategemeana. Faida ya kuacha lile eneo kama lilivyo ni kubwa kuliko kuchimba magadi na kuharibu ziwa, ikizingatiwa kwamba magadi hayo hayatamsaidia kwa lolote Mtanzania wa kawaida, kwani pesa ya madini hatujui inakoelekea.
    Mwenye sikio na asikie!
     
  19. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Fundi Mchundo na Wataalmu wenzako wa mazingira mmeishia wapi kujadili mradi huu wa wahindi? Sina uhakika kama hawa jamaa wamesitisha mradi huu, any updates please!
     
  20. nngu007

    nngu007 JF-Expert Member

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    April 3, 2011

    A soda ash mining plant planned for Tanzania's Lake Natron, the breeding ground for all of east Africa's endangered lesser flamingoes, must go ahead, President Jakaya Kikwete said Saturday.


    "There is no need for further delay of the project, which will give the country's economy a big boost," Kikwete said.


    Kikwete, who was addressing officials at the trade and industry ministry, said Lake Natron's reserves of soda ash deposits were big enough to make Tanzania the world's leading producer of the product.


    The plant, which will be able to process up to 500,000 tonnes of soda ash annually, has attracted criticism from environmentalists who argue the project and its associated infrastructure will destroy the flamingoes' breeding ground.

    Like all flamingoes the birds lay a single egg on a mound of mud.

    Kikwete argued, however, that destruction of the breeding grounds could be avoided.


    "We cannot continue with poverty while we have vast resources, including our minerals that are lying untapped. We can just apply the right technology that is not harmful to flamingoes," he said.


    Industry minister Cyril Chami has said that the relevant environment and social impact assessments should be completed by the end of April.


    The plant, which is to be built and operated by Tata Chemicals of Mumbai, and which will feature a grid of pipes running across the lake as well as infrastructure for workers on the shore, was put on hold in 2008 on environmental concerns.
     
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