"Dikteta" Nyerere alipotua White House in a State Visit 1963 [VIDEO]
- Thread starter Mzee Mwanakijiji
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Kibunago
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- Jan 11, 2008
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Kwa wachache sana wasioelewa kuwa alama za fungua na funga semi zaidi ya kueleza kauli iliyotolewa (simulizi) na mtu fulani pia hutumika kuonyesha kuwa neno lenye hizo alama halikubaliki na mwandishi (mwandishi haamini hivyo) au lina utata au pia alama ya kuliwasilisha kwa kejeli (mbezo) fulani.
Ndivyo neno Dikteta lilivyotumika hapa. Kwa hiyo itakuwa kinyume chake kufikiri kuwa mwandishi ndiye anayemwita au kuamini kuwa Nyerere alikuwa dikteta.
Ndivyo neno Dikteta lilivyotumika hapa. Kwa hiyo itakuwa kinyume chake kufikiri kuwa mwandishi ndiye anayemwita au kuamini kuwa Nyerere alikuwa dikteta.
Kiranja Mkuu
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Heshima yako jamvini inapungua. Wabunge wetu tumewatuma wakatuwakilishe, watujengee hoja hai zitakazo tuletea maendeleo. Sisi hatukuwatuma wakajadili marehemu.Wakifanya hivyo watakuwa wameenda bungeni kupiga majungu, kazi ambayo hatukuwatuma. Watakuwa wamejiwakilisha wao binafsi na si wananchi
Video-Nyerere aelezea jinsi alivyokuwa power ya Constitution kuwa Dictator. Maneno yake mwenyewe.
Video: Films On Demand - View Playlist#
Video: Films On Demand - View Playlist#
Nyambala
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- Oct 10, 2007
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Kuna kitu kingine nimekinotisi ktk hiyo hotuba ya Nyerere anasema the struggle we have ahead of us ni kufanya "all people in the nation of Tanganyika are equal citizens"
Hiyo hoja imekuwa mis-interprated mara nyingi sana tena sometimes hata na close confidants wa Nyerere. Ukiiangalia vizuri hii hoja haimaanishi usawa wa watu katka possessions ya mali bali katika utu. Sasa mara nyingi wapinzani wa Julius nje na ndani ya CCM huwa wanasema Nyerere alitaka as if kama una gari moja na mimi niwe nalo moja tena kama ni Landrover mee too. Au kama una nyumba mbili basi kila mtu awe na mbili.
Hiyo hoja imekuwa mis-interprated mara nyingi sana tena sometimes hata na close confidants wa Nyerere. Ukiiangalia vizuri hii hoja haimaanishi usawa wa watu katka possessions ya mali bali katika utu. Sasa mara nyingi wapinzani wa Julius nje na ndani ya CCM huwa wanasema Nyerere alitaka as if kama una gari moja na mimi niwe nalo moja tena kama ni Landrover mee too. Au kama una nyumba mbili basi kila mtu awe na mbili.
TIMING
JF-Expert Member
- Apr 12, 2008
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ngoja wahusika wakusikie
TIMING
JF-Expert Member
- Apr 12, 2008
- 24,893
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Wenye ufinyu hawaoni hayo.... wanasahau nyuma ni msingi na tofali, kuweka stuko na rangi ni matokeo tu
Nyerere laid the foundation, built the pillars and raised all the levels to the rafter .... he was a president kuanzia 1964 - 1985 twenty one fookin' years... and then he left the country to three new presidents who have lead this country for a total of 26 years guys!!!! all these year to roof the house, plumbing, power circulation and furnishing....
JAMANI HII KITU NI VERY FUNNY.... AND ONE PERSON STANDING SOMEWHERE TRYING TO COMPARE HIMSELF WITH NYERERE, HANA ADABU
Nyerere was in teh middle of vita baridi, ukombozi wa africa, transition of Tanzanians mindsets from utumwa to kujitawala etc. the one we have has only one thing, kuondoa umaskini.... and thanks to God, Arabs revolution are even giving him a better platform to perform without interference from the foreign nations
pooooffff
TIMING
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steve... kuna gap kubwa sana ya uelewa na namna tunavyomtetea mtu mmoja kaisi cha kukufuru Mungu sasa, and i dont know to whose interest
TIMING
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aisee....:A S 114::A S 114: Thanks mkuu ngoja nisepe kitaa hiki, kule MMU kutanipa faraja kidogo
JokaKuu
Platinum Member
- Jul 31, 2006
- 30,441
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Mwanakijiji,
..asante.
..sasa wananchi watapata nafasi ya kutofautisha ziara ya Mwalimu Nyerere USA, ambayo ilikuwa rasmi, na ile ya Kikwete aliyekwenda White House baada ya saa za kazi.
Nyambala,
..kwa kuzingatia misukosuko iliyokuwa ikiendelea Alabama basi bila shaka Kennedy alithamini sana ziara ya Mwalimu Nyerere.
..Wamarekani wametoka mbali sana. wanampigia saluti na mizinga Raisi Mwafrika, lakini kwenye majimbo mengine kulikuwa na shule,vyuo vikuu, na migahawa....ambapo mtu mweusi alikuwa hawezi kupewa huduma.
..asante.
..sasa wananchi watapata nafasi ya kutofautisha ziara ya Mwalimu Nyerere USA, ambayo ilikuwa rasmi, na ile ya Kikwete aliyekwenda White House baada ya saa za kazi.
Nyambala,
..kwa kuzingatia misukosuko iliyokuwa ikiendelea Alabama basi bila shaka Kennedy alithamini sana ziara ya Mwalimu Nyerere.
..Wamarekani wametoka mbali sana. wanampigia saluti na mizinga Raisi Mwafrika, lakini kwenye majimbo mengine kulikuwa na shule,vyuo vikuu, na migahawa....ambapo mtu mweusi alikuwa hawezi kupewa huduma.
GJ Mwanakatwe
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- Mar 26, 2011
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Sio sawa na haki kumuita nyerere dikteta, hakuwa dikteta hata kidogo bali alikuwa na kipawa cha kusilkilizwa na kufuatwa.
Nimefurahi jinsi Carter alivomdescribe Nyerere kwenye hotuba yake. Anamwelezea alikotoka na jinsi alivotumia maadili aliyopata kupitia mazingira yake kubadilisha maisha ya watu wengine. ni kweli mwalimu alifanya makosa kama binadamu lakini mazuri aliyoyafanya si kifani. Huyu ni Rais aliyekuwepo enzi ambazo hata ubaguzi wa rangi huko Amerika ilikuwa mbaya, kitu demokrasi na haki za watu hazikuthaminiwa kivitendo hata na mataifa yaliyobobea kwenye demokrasi sasa hivi.Wanaotaka tuamini kuwa Mwlm alikuwa dkteta hawajui kuwa kipindi hicho watu walitoka kwenye ukoloni na kiasi cha uhuru uliotolewa na mwalimu kipindi hicho ndicho kilikuwa kiwango bora cha uhuru. Hakukuwa na unyanyasaji wa vyombo vya usalama kwa raia kwa kiwango cha kuhisi kutawaliwa kwa nguvu, watu walihisi serkali iko nao karibu na inawasikiliza, viongozi hawakuwa miungu watu, watu walijiona wako sawa kwa haki za msingi pasipo kujali nafasi ya mtu. Hicho ndicho kiwango bora cha uhuru wakati huo. Unaweza kuwa baba maskini lakini mwenye kusikiliza matatizo ya familia ukifanya juhudi zote kuhakikisha yanatatulika kwa kiwamgo chako. Heshima itakuja kwa nia na juhudi uliyofanya kutatua tatizo na siyo kuitatua tu. Hapa ndipo Nyerere anapopata dirisha la kuingia kwenye mioyo ya watu. Ukiongea ukimwangalia kuanzia mguuni hadi usoni unaona nia ya dhati na utashi vikifuatiwa na vitendo kutatua matatizo. Akiongea anataka uhuru wa watu unaouna nia hiyo hata ukifumba macho mawasiliano ya dhamiri safi utaupata. Simuungi mkono mwalimu kwa kila kitu lakini angalau kila alilolifanya nia yake ilikuwa nchi ifaidike na hili ndilo lilifanya ahishimike kote duniani. Ungeenda Kenya, Uganda au nchi nyingi za kiafrika kipindi hicho ungejua kwanini watu watoto wanampenda baba maskini mwenye upendo kuliko baba tajiri asiyejali.
FaizaFoxy
Platinum Member
- Apr 13, 2011
- 92,883
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Re: Video: Nyerere Akiri Alikuwa Dictator
https://www.jamiiforums.com/jukwaa-la-siasa/146897-video-nyerere-akiri-alikuwa-dictator.html
https://www.jamiiforums.com/jukwaa-la-siasa/146897-video-nyerere-akiri-alikuwa-dictator.html
BCR
Senior Member
- Mar 16, 2011
- 101
- 12
The idea of titled the late Nyerere a dictator, proves that you even more dictator compared to what u claimed the late Nyerere to be.Think thrice then remove ua thread and excuse Tanzanians. I this ua not even in ua country, utakuwa ugaibuni wewe, ukizungumzia ya Tanzania njo uishi ulinganishe ya sasa na ya zamani kisha utoe jibu sahihi, nani dikteta.
FaizaFoxy
Platinum Member
- Apr 13, 2011
- 92,883
- 109,211
Re: Video: Nyerere Akiri Alikuwa Dictator
https://www.jamiiforums.com/jukwaa-la-siasa/146897-video-nyerere-akiri-alikuwa-dictator.html
https://www.jamiiforums.com/jukwaa-la-siasa/146897-video-nyerere-akiri-alikuwa-dictator.html
FaizaFoxy
Platinum Member
- Apr 13, 2011
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Was Nyerere Such a Dictator?
When the students at the University of Dar es Salaam protested in the late 1970s they faced the wrath of the State, President Nyerere's State. As one of the students recalls, Mwalimu Nyerere told them ‘I love democracy but I don't practice it – do you think democracy is granted on a silver platter? No, you have to fight for it!' Whether or not the autobiographical memory of this former student has done justice to what Mwalimu really said or not the debates rages on whether Nyerere was a dictator or not. Nyerere himself added flavour when he stated that the Constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania allowed him to be dictator.
The debate was recently rekindled in our online forum at known as Wanazuoni – Tanzania's Intellectual at Wanazuoni : Tanzania's Intellectuals. What triggered when a prospective member posted an article entitled Was Kambona That Bad? by Metty Nyang'oro. The article is an attempt at rewriting our history so that kids may not grow up thinking that the likes of Oscar Kambona and "were villains simply because they didn't fit into Nyerere's thinking."
"This was an interesting read I thought I would share", noted Gwantwa Kasamala and added, "I do share similar sentiments with the author. I was reading up on Nyerere on Wikipedia and they even went as far as calling him a dictator which I totally second. Yes he did us some good but in my opinion to the detriment of a whole lot more." What follows then is a compilation of the debate that was sparked by this initial reaction.
Chambi Chachage: Thank you for the article. Yes indeed Mwalimu was not a saint and I, for one, do not support his beatification. But all that I insist is that let us seriously engage, in a critical yet balanced way, with what he said and did as it had and still has a profound effect, positive or negative, on our society today. By the way my most recent article on Mwalimu in our Popular Imagination: The Relevance of Nyerere Today is an attempt to show that he means so many different things to different people and we need to at least acknowledge that even if we don't agree with what other feel or think of him. Pambazuka - Mwalimu in our popular imagination: The relevance of Nyerere today >
Gwantwa Kasamala: Chambi I just finished reading you piece and I think my basic point is that given that he had many 'victories' in a way, unfortunately, the part he played in our liberation and development was not a rehearsal and he did not have the luxury of making not so good decisions or course of actions…there was literally no room for mistakes and for me, that is why I think most people are a bit harsh on Nyerere. He had to have got it perfect the first time round because there were and still are no second chances when it comes to these things. You cannot undo what you have done when it comes to the ripple effect that his actions/lack of actions have caused and will continue to result into, something like for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. He did the actions and in a way the Tanzania today is the reactions taking place and the reactions will keep rolling out and rolling out and rolling out…
Neema Kambona: I will catch up with you and no doubt the debate on "Kambona, Nyerere and others, so many of them, some of whom were imprisoned for their views' …
Chambi Chachage: Neema I think that book of yours should come out now to undo what Jacques Depelchin refers to as Silences in African History. Probably Edwin Mtei's book From Goathead to Governor has inspired you. Now after Mtei, Babu, Said (On behalf of Sykes) and Geiger (on behalf of Bibi Titi?) have tried to undo the dominant Nyerere-centered history it's about time that Kambona chips in as his is the story that is most silenced than the rest.
Gwantwa Kasamala: Another thing I think that is with me is that Nyerere was never really challenged full frontal. Those who attempted ended in half step and the truth is that Nyerere got away with a lot that perhaps he shouldn't have. I am not trying to take away what good he may have done but I cannot help but be a little pissed. I mean wherever you hear of Nyerere, Ujamaa comes to mind.....I mean is that ALL he was about or is there more? In a way I do not even understand other than what Wikipedia < Ujamaa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > have offered.
Chambi Chachage: I feel/hear you. But I think Wikipedia is not the most authentic source on anything. We always have to clarify what is in there. I will send you some interesting findings about the errors that are found in Wikipedia. Actually a hoax was put there and, gosh, people quoted it! Ok back to the point. Nyerere is a legend as well as a myth. If you want a balanced picture of him then read both his supporters and those who do not support him.
Demere Kitunga: I think whoever wants to study Nyerere should learn the trick of reading him between the lines and distinguish his reaction to those who philosophize and those taking action. Good examples are: those autonomous villages in Matetereka et al. who implemented Arusha Declaration as it was supposed to be implemented but wanted autonomy; what happened to autonomous labor, youth, women, and cooperative unions, despite some of the capitalist tendencies in the latter which could be used to justify actions that in part crushed the indigenous agrarian sector; what happened to students in 1978 in spite of the politics of their demands being ‘correct' unlike the previous protest marches, etc…
Neema Kambona: Yes, yes, yes, yes and by the way the term dictator is subjective, like everything else it depends on who is using it to describe whom at the time. For those of us who were denied our freedom, many sent to detention and prison without trial, for merely expressing a viewpoint and for those villagers who lost their farms and were forcibly taken from their ancestral homes, for the cooperatives that were contributing to development along socialist principles before being taken over by the state etc, maybe all of these groups feel the term is apt for Nyerere. But let me not put words in their mouths… we need to hear their voices
Gwantwa Kasamala: A dictator? Yes I would say Nyerere was a DICTATOR. My reasoning on this are quite simple … Nyerere was a genius. His genius is beyond comprehension. He was good at luring people into his vacuum of undeniable control. He not only controlled the voices of people but he controlled their minds. Almost like brainwashed them. I mean Kawawa (bless his heart, i guess he didn't know any better)... the guy was even mocked as being Nyerere's puppet and those were the kind of people that Nyerere liked and that we celebrate to this very day. I tell you this in itself tells us a little something about us as a people. People literally were incapable of knowing what they want and basically gave into the 'Nyerere way is the way'. You know what is more sad is that he literally killed peoples zeal for life and zest for development and progression, and this is very evident even today. I hear things like he did not allow people to have radios or TV's and if you were found with one they were confiscated and the situation was treated like a crime and there were severe repercussions. If those are not characteristics of a dictator then I do not know what is. Truth is that after kicking out the 'white man' all that was done was change the players but the situation was still the same. People were NOT liberated and in a way still are not.
Demere Kitunga: I think you are getting carried away Gwantwa! How can all that you say be attributed to one person? And you talk of the third generation since Nyerere? When I grew up during Nyerere's time young Tanzanians were known not only to speak their minds but also to do so more articulately than average youths of the time. What has changed since then? Look into that seriously and for that you have to scratch beyond the surface. Confiscation of radios, now this is beyond exaggeration. I was 6 years when we got Uhuru and I have lived through all the phases of Nyerere, read him, admired him, at time resented him and become a victim of many failures of his regime…if you seriously want to explore Nyerere's legacy dictator or not, my advice is, look into many sides of this great personality: Nyerere the man, his politics, a statesman and his regime including state machinery, as a leader his vision etc and Nyerere the thinker his philosophy and world view… that way you can get a balanced view of his legacy for he was only a man who carried all these mandates and faces, some contradictory, some consistent…and with this you may also wish to study the dynamics of power…
Neema Ndunguru: It is no good being a blind follower or a blind critic of Nyerere. But let us recall one thing as Demere has already touched on: Mwalimu Julius Kambarage Nyerere was our nation's leader, perhaps a genius, a benevolent dictator, but most importantly, a human being
with perfect flaws and flawed perfections. It is through discussions like these that each one of us begins to understand this man (and those - prominent and not - who were around him during his time in office) better. And in doing so, understand our current situation better (to a certain extent). It may not be fair to put all the blame on him but it is also not realistic not to portion a
fair share to him. We are experiencing the consequences of decisions made over 45 years
ago. If we do not bother or care to learn about the mistakes made back then (which, in my view, is what some of our leaders today do (not?) do), then yes, we have very little choice but to surrender to accepting a bleak future for our country at large... and only work towards making things better for me, me and me. The Ubinafsi that Gwantwa is talking about. It is quite Ironic that a country that prides itself in Ujamaa could be overflowing with selfishness on every street.
Gureni Lukwaro: A Quick Question please. I am deeply bothered by the statement that "In the final analysis this debate on Nyerere is about a position one takes (based on his/her class among other positions) and it seems many of us here have already taken a position and some are too bitter to see beyond their positions. So we can debate and debate but at the end of the day we choose what to hear see or read about Nyerere and that is what informs - if not cloud - our judgment about him." Does this mean that there's no way, we can ever analyse this phenomenon of great leadership objectively without interjecting our positions, class, standards, styles, etc? I am somehow convinced that if we have a clear definition of what a great leader is, then based on the abundant evidences these leaders have left behind, we could we could easily do biometrics to see if their footprints match the criteria for great leadership or not, hence objective analysis.
Kamala Lutanisibwa: Waswahili wanasema "asiyejua kufa achungulie kaburi" that's why Kenyan and Ugandans seem to praise Nyerere than Tanzanians, because they know KUFA, they know KABURI. they have been led by Kings whose brains are sometimes hard to examine, or in other words, they have been led by leaders like those who will soon (or already) become our leaders, then we will know KUFA and KABURI, we shall praise the Ghost mwalimu and wish him back while he can't…Anyway, Nyerere was a guy just like us though Catholics think he is still a leader where he is now and the call him saint… but he had some spiritual advancements and SELF knowledge which made him do what he did. Any man who knows himself first will succeed more in leading a good life. Thats what enabled Nyerere to work on the benefits of majority, he knew that himself as a body he is just nothing and therefore working for his body (himself) was nothing than working for the majority. Anyway, find his negative side but the positive side can never be swallowed. It may take long for Tanzanians to realise his job, I think we need to research on his success and try to teach it in schools otherwise ngoja tujiendee tukiliona kaburi na kujua kufa, tutamkumbuka.
Marie Shaba: First of all let me openly declare my full allegiance to Mwalimu JKN because he was in many ways a student of Hon Marcus Mosiah Garvey another Afrikan philosopher who has been abused by many anti Africanists documentalists! Judging others is very tricky especially when you know them through others. It becomes even more serious when these others are leaders who lead through others using modern day philosophies like representative democracy and not like our under the neem tree free democracy! It becomes even worse when some of these extended leaders have not been blessed with the intellectual capacity to at least question and try to understand the visionary leader who seems to be many years ahead of them. Because then they would try to translate the vision into workable strategies, tactics and develop programmes which will make people became agents of their own development and empowerment…What saddens me is that instead of improving on the philosophies they were developing so that we can also develop our own development models in tune with who we are or want to be; we find it easy to be copycats of other peoples inventions and experiments…I know it is always tempting to blame someone or this abstract thing called the government or religion, customs and traditions! If we want to make a worthwhile contribution lets not make blanket statements without an analysis of the context and the environment that our leaders and those around them were living. Some of you will know because Kanyama Chiume wrote an article when Mwalimu died saying that at the height of the treason trial which involved Oscar Kambona, Michael Kamaliza, Bibi Titi Mohammed and others, some officials from the CID went to his house and told him that his life was on danger because Nyerere is very angry with all the Wanyasas and he has signed an order for their arrest and imprisonment. So you better run away while you and your other colleagues have the time. Instead of running away he decided to call Mwalimu and make an appointment which he got. He told Mwalimu point blank that you don't have to send people to arrest me, here I am you can kill me if you want! Mwalimu was shocked and called those from the CID wanted to know who did that. But the most interesting part was when Mwalimu said "I am tired of this, every good hardworking person is against me and is for Kambona. Who is for Nyerere?" Chiume concluded that he was lucky he decided to challenge Mwalimu and had a chance to see him; but how many fell victims to the malicious crew which was all out to destroy other people's lives in the name of Mwalimu? My assumption is may be even this treason case was just a hoax to separate Mwalimu with his friends, the double dealers will tell both friends that the other is planning to kill you, and will make sure you never meet eye to eye like in a soap opera! Bibi Titi also told me the same story that some people arranged for her transport to go into hiding because Mwalimu is jealousy and is purging all those who struggled with him for independence so she pressured to leave immediately. Her humble conclusion later on was mwalimu was misled! My own father Austin Shaba then a cabinet Minister, was also approached by an agent who told him Mwalimu has declared war on all the Wanyasas and that he as Minister for Housing and Local government has taken bribe from the Germans during the housing operation in Mwananyamala, Magomeni, Kinondoni and elsewhere. So better run away before the law catches up with him. They told him Kambona and others are now safe outside the country. Later on before he told me he did not see any reason why he should run away because he was not guilty; besides he had a big family two wives and many children and dependants how can he abandon them? So he decided to remain in the country and wait for any consequence. The most he was to step down as a minister because he was not a citizen! And he mused, if he had run away then the invisible enemies would have told Mwalimu you see Shaba is a traitor like the others, if he was not guilty why did he run away! Agents like those in the 60s and 70s are still at play at different levels, and they are more vicious now than ever before! We have to remain focused and correct the wrongs by doing the right things! The truth must be told in the right context, and who knows we might unearth the culprits who made Ujamaa na Kujitegemea fail and for what reasons.
Neema Kambona: Marie No one questions your allegiance to Mwalimu. That is good. All we are saying is that as in all nations, there are many stories to be told. And as the information is unearthed, one might be surprised at what comes out good or bad. One of things I will say right now is that my father was not a capitalist as he is portrayed in popular literature. He never called himself a capitalist and until his dying day, he swore to the doctrine of socialism BUT he disagreed with a totalitarian system that didn't allow for the people to participate in their own development. Therefore he never agreed to the doctrine of one party rule. If you read the early history of the independence movement, you will be struck by the fact that Kambona is always labeled as the radical, left of centre to Mwalimu, even the Marxist by Western critique! So there has been much misinformation over the years… Let the process of unearthing the many stories and in particular women's stories of Tanzania's his/herstory continue to make this country a richer nation. We will not be silenced... Let us celebrate the many voices and contributions to our society. This will make us whole. I do not subscribe to the view that only one voice should be accepted as the African Way.
Daniel Welwel: I have been following this discussion from the beginning. The title we have given to the discussion, Was Nyerere such a Dictator? intrigue mixed thoughts. The contributions so far have remained humane and considerate though somewhat simplistic as Demere suggested. If we are to discuss dictatorial tendencies and judge whether Nyerere qualify to be a dictator then we limit ourselves to the ingredients such as was he abiding to democratic principles? Were there structures of democracy in place? Was he listening to others? Did he care explain his decisions and positions on various issues? Did the majority agreed with him? Did he cling in power against the will of the people? Did he squander our resources or steal our money? A list of questions would go on. I for one do not think Nyerere was a dictator. This, however, is not synonymous with saying that he did not have mistakes. After all he still is a human being not an angel. If we have had a participatory presidency I would vote his regime as democratic. One example: It took a while to come up with Arusha declaration and literature has it that it was quite a struggle with opposing views expressed openly. Thereafter it was all public and no secrets were kept. The same cannot be said for Zanzibar-God forbid-declaration.
Ernest Wamba: On this question of leader and leadership, we need to move away from simple comparison of so-called 'leaders'. What is needed is to examine situations, current situations in Lenin's sense and what could be seen as the leadership actions required by the situation and see whose actions perfectly orient/deal best with that situation. Against Us imperialism, in the epoch of 'cold war', we may compare the leadership of say, Giap/Ho Chi Minh, Nyerere, Che, Castro, Allende, Mobutu. Within Africa, we may compare say, Nyerere, Lumumba, Nkrumah. Surviving may prove to be a better leadership than easily being killed like Lumumba. Of course, this needs a sound grasp of the successive current situations. It may be that a particular leader may be better in a situation, leadership wise than in other situations. It is also possible that one may prove good in all situations one is involved in. This could be a model of leader. I am just speculating, to move away from, N is good, n is bad.
When the students at the University of Dar es Salaam protested in the late 1970s they faced the wrath of the State, President Nyerere's State. As one of the students recalls, Mwalimu Nyerere told them ‘I love democracy but I don't practice it – do you think democracy is granted on a silver platter? No, you have to fight for it!' Whether or not the autobiographical memory of this former student has done justice to what Mwalimu really said or not the debates rages on whether Nyerere was a dictator or not. Nyerere himself added flavour when he stated that the Constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania allowed him to be dictator.
The debate was recently rekindled in our online forum at known as Wanazuoni – Tanzania's Intellectual at Wanazuoni : Tanzania's Intellectuals. What triggered when a prospective member posted an article entitled Was Kambona That Bad? by Metty Nyang'oro. The article is an attempt at rewriting our history so that kids may not grow up thinking that the likes of Oscar Kambona and "were villains simply because they didn't fit into Nyerere's thinking."
"This was an interesting read I thought I would share", noted Gwantwa Kasamala and added, "I do share similar sentiments with the author. I was reading up on Nyerere on Wikipedia and they even went as far as calling him a dictator which I totally second. Yes he did us some good but in my opinion to the detriment of a whole lot more." What follows then is a compilation of the debate that was sparked by this initial reaction.
Chambi Chachage: Thank you for the article. Yes indeed Mwalimu was not a saint and I, for one, do not support his beatification. But all that I insist is that let us seriously engage, in a critical yet balanced way, with what he said and did as it had and still has a profound effect, positive or negative, on our society today. By the way my most recent article on Mwalimu in our Popular Imagination: The Relevance of Nyerere Today is an attempt to show that he means so many different things to different people and we need to at least acknowledge that even if we don't agree with what other feel or think of him. Pambazuka - Mwalimu in our popular imagination: The relevance of Nyerere today >
Gwantwa Kasamala: Chambi I just finished reading you piece and I think my basic point is that given that he had many 'victories' in a way, unfortunately, the part he played in our liberation and development was not a rehearsal and he did not have the luxury of making not so good decisions or course of actions…there was literally no room for mistakes and for me, that is why I think most people are a bit harsh on Nyerere. He had to have got it perfect the first time round because there were and still are no second chances when it comes to these things. You cannot undo what you have done when it comes to the ripple effect that his actions/lack of actions have caused and will continue to result into, something like for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. He did the actions and in a way the Tanzania today is the reactions taking place and the reactions will keep rolling out and rolling out and rolling out…
Neema Kambona: I will catch up with you and no doubt the debate on "Kambona, Nyerere and others, so many of them, some of whom were imprisoned for their views' …
Chambi Chachage: Neema I think that book of yours should come out now to undo what Jacques Depelchin refers to as Silences in African History. Probably Edwin Mtei's book From Goathead to Governor has inspired you. Now after Mtei, Babu, Said (On behalf of Sykes) and Geiger (on behalf of Bibi Titi?) have tried to undo the dominant Nyerere-centered history it's about time that Kambona chips in as his is the story that is most silenced than the rest.
Gwantwa Kasamala: Another thing I think that is with me is that Nyerere was never really challenged full frontal. Those who attempted ended in half step and the truth is that Nyerere got away with a lot that perhaps he shouldn't have. I am not trying to take away what good he may have done but I cannot help but be a little pissed. I mean wherever you hear of Nyerere, Ujamaa comes to mind.....I mean is that ALL he was about or is there more? In a way I do not even understand other than what Wikipedia < Ujamaa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > have offered.
Chambi Chachage: I feel/hear you. But I think Wikipedia is not the most authentic source on anything. We always have to clarify what is in there. I will send you some interesting findings about the errors that are found in Wikipedia. Actually a hoax was put there and, gosh, people quoted it! Ok back to the point. Nyerere is a legend as well as a myth. If you want a balanced picture of him then read both his supporters and those who do not support him.
Demere Kitunga: I think whoever wants to study Nyerere should learn the trick of reading him between the lines and distinguish his reaction to those who philosophize and those taking action. Good examples are: those autonomous villages in Matetereka et al. who implemented Arusha Declaration as it was supposed to be implemented but wanted autonomy; what happened to autonomous labor, youth, women, and cooperative unions, despite some of the capitalist tendencies in the latter which could be used to justify actions that in part crushed the indigenous agrarian sector; what happened to students in 1978 in spite of the politics of their demands being ‘correct' unlike the previous protest marches, etc…
Neema Kambona: Yes, yes, yes, yes and by the way the term dictator is subjective, like everything else it depends on who is using it to describe whom at the time. For those of us who were denied our freedom, many sent to detention and prison without trial, for merely expressing a viewpoint and for those villagers who lost their farms and were forcibly taken from their ancestral homes, for the cooperatives that were contributing to development along socialist principles before being taken over by the state etc, maybe all of these groups feel the term is apt for Nyerere. But let me not put words in their mouths… we need to hear their voices
Gwantwa Kasamala: A dictator? Yes I would say Nyerere was a DICTATOR. My reasoning on this are quite simple … Nyerere was a genius. His genius is beyond comprehension. He was good at luring people into his vacuum of undeniable control. He not only controlled the voices of people but he controlled their minds. Almost like brainwashed them. I mean Kawawa (bless his heart, i guess he didn't know any better)... the guy was even mocked as being Nyerere's puppet and those were the kind of people that Nyerere liked and that we celebrate to this very day. I tell you this in itself tells us a little something about us as a people. People literally were incapable of knowing what they want and basically gave into the 'Nyerere way is the way'. You know what is more sad is that he literally killed peoples zeal for life and zest for development and progression, and this is very evident even today. I hear things like he did not allow people to have radios or TV's and if you were found with one they were confiscated and the situation was treated like a crime and there were severe repercussions. If those are not characteristics of a dictator then I do not know what is. Truth is that after kicking out the 'white man' all that was done was change the players but the situation was still the same. People were NOT liberated and in a way still are not.
Demere Kitunga: I think you are getting carried away Gwantwa! How can all that you say be attributed to one person? And you talk of the third generation since Nyerere? When I grew up during Nyerere's time young Tanzanians were known not only to speak their minds but also to do so more articulately than average youths of the time. What has changed since then? Look into that seriously and for that you have to scratch beyond the surface. Confiscation of radios, now this is beyond exaggeration. I was 6 years when we got Uhuru and I have lived through all the phases of Nyerere, read him, admired him, at time resented him and become a victim of many failures of his regime…if you seriously want to explore Nyerere's legacy dictator or not, my advice is, look into many sides of this great personality: Nyerere the man, his politics, a statesman and his regime including state machinery, as a leader his vision etc and Nyerere the thinker his philosophy and world view… that way you can get a balanced view of his legacy for he was only a man who carried all these mandates and faces, some contradictory, some consistent…and with this you may also wish to study the dynamics of power…
Neema Ndunguru: It is no good being a blind follower or a blind critic of Nyerere. But let us recall one thing as Demere has already touched on: Mwalimu Julius Kambarage Nyerere was our nation's leader, perhaps a genius, a benevolent dictator, but most importantly, a human being
with perfect flaws and flawed perfections. It is through discussions like these that each one of us begins to understand this man (and those - prominent and not - who were around him during his time in office) better. And in doing so, understand our current situation better (to a certain extent). It may not be fair to put all the blame on him but it is also not realistic not to portion a
fair share to him. We are experiencing the consequences of decisions made over 45 years
ago. If we do not bother or care to learn about the mistakes made back then (which, in my view, is what some of our leaders today do (not?) do), then yes, we have very little choice but to surrender to accepting a bleak future for our country at large... and only work towards making things better for me, me and me. The Ubinafsi that Gwantwa is talking about. It is quite Ironic that a country that prides itself in Ujamaa could be overflowing with selfishness on every street.
Gureni Lukwaro: A Quick Question please. I am deeply bothered by the statement that "In the final analysis this debate on Nyerere is about a position one takes (based on his/her class among other positions) and it seems many of us here have already taken a position and some are too bitter to see beyond their positions. So we can debate and debate but at the end of the day we choose what to hear see or read about Nyerere and that is what informs - if not cloud - our judgment about him." Does this mean that there's no way, we can ever analyse this phenomenon of great leadership objectively without interjecting our positions, class, standards, styles, etc? I am somehow convinced that if we have a clear definition of what a great leader is, then based on the abundant evidences these leaders have left behind, we could we could easily do biometrics to see if their footprints match the criteria for great leadership or not, hence objective analysis.
Kamala Lutanisibwa: Waswahili wanasema "asiyejua kufa achungulie kaburi" that's why Kenyan and Ugandans seem to praise Nyerere than Tanzanians, because they know KUFA, they know KABURI. they have been led by Kings whose brains are sometimes hard to examine, or in other words, they have been led by leaders like those who will soon (or already) become our leaders, then we will know KUFA and KABURI, we shall praise the Ghost mwalimu and wish him back while he can't…Anyway, Nyerere was a guy just like us though Catholics think he is still a leader where he is now and the call him saint… but he had some spiritual advancements and SELF knowledge which made him do what he did. Any man who knows himself first will succeed more in leading a good life. Thats what enabled Nyerere to work on the benefits of majority, he knew that himself as a body he is just nothing and therefore working for his body (himself) was nothing than working for the majority. Anyway, find his negative side but the positive side can never be swallowed. It may take long for Tanzanians to realise his job, I think we need to research on his success and try to teach it in schools otherwise ngoja tujiendee tukiliona kaburi na kujua kufa, tutamkumbuka.
Marie Shaba: First of all let me openly declare my full allegiance to Mwalimu JKN because he was in many ways a student of Hon Marcus Mosiah Garvey another Afrikan philosopher who has been abused by many anti Africanists documentalists! Judging others is very tricky especially when you know them through others. It becomes even more serious when these others are leaders who lead through others using modern day philosophies like representative democracy and not like our under the neem tree free democracy! It becomes even worse when some of these extended leaders have not been blessed with the intellectual capacity to at least question and try to understand the visionary leader who seems to be many years ahead of them. Because then they would try to translate the vision into workable strategies, tactics and develop programmes which will make people became agents of their own development and empowerment…What saddens me is that instead of improving on the philosophies they were developing so that we can also develop our own development models in tune with who we are or want to be; we find it easy to be copycats of other peoples inventions and experiments…I know it is always tempting to blame someone or this abstract thing called the government or religion, customs and traditions! If we want to make a worthwhile contribution lets not make blanket statements without an analysis of the context and the environment that our leaders and those around them were living. Some of you will know because Kanyama Chiume wrote an article when Mwalimu died saying that at the height of the treason trial which involved Oscar Kambona, Michael Kamaliza, Bibi Titi Mohammed and others, some officials from the CID went to his house and told him that his life was on danger because Nyerere is very angry with all the Wanyasas and he has signed an order for their arrest and imprisonment. So you better run away while you and your other colleagues have the time. Instead of running away he decided to call Mwalimu and make an appointment which he got. He told Mwalimu point blank that you don't have to send people to arrest me, here I am you can kill me if you want! Mwalimu was shocked and called those from the CID wanted to know who did that. But the most interesting part was when Mwalimu said "I am tired of this, every good hardworking person is against me and is for Kambona. Who is for Nyerere?" Chiume concluded that he was lucky he decided to challenge Mwalimu and had a chance to see him; but how many fell victims to the malicious crew which was all out to destroy other people's lives in the name of Mwalimu? My assumption is may be even this treason case was just a hoax to separate Mwalimu with his friends, the double dealers will tell both friends that the other is planning to kill you, and will make sure you never meet eye to eye like in a soap opera! Bibi Titi also told me the same story that some people arranged for her transport to go into hiding because Mwalimu is jealousy and is purging all those who struggled with him for independence so she pressured to leave immediately. Her humble conclusion later on was mwalimu was misled! My own father Austin Shaba then a cabinet Minister, was also approached by an agent who told him Mwalimu has declared war on all the Wanyasas and that he as Minister for Housing and Local government has taken bribe from the Germans during the housing operation in Mwananyamala, Magomeni, Kinondoni and elsewhere. So better run away before the law catches up with him. They told him Kambona and others are now safe outside the country. Later on before he told me he did not see any reason why he should run away because he was not guilty; besides he had a big family two wives and many children and dependants how can he abandon them? So he decided to remain in the country and wait for any consequence. The most he was to step down as a minister because he was not a citizen! And he mused, if he had run away then the invisible enemies would have told Mwalimu you see Shaba is a traitor like the others, if he was not guilty why did he run away! Agents like those in the 60s and 70s are still at play at different levels, and they are more vicious now than ever before! We have to remain focused and correct the wrongs by doing the right things! The truth must be told in the right context, and who knows we might unearth the culprits who made Ujamaa na Kujitegemea fail and for what reasons.
Neema Kambona: Marie No one questions your allegiance to Mwalimu. That is good. All we are saying is that as in all nations, there are many stories to be told. And as the information is unearthed, one might be surprised at what comes out good or bad. One of things I will say right now is that my father was not a capitalist as he is portrayed in popular literature. He never called himself a capitalist and until his dying day, he swore to the doctrine of socialism BUT he disagreed with a totalitarian system that didn't allow for the people to participate in their own development. Therefore he never agreed to the doctrine of one party rule. If you read the early history of the independence movement, you will be struck by the fact that Kambona is always labeled as the radical, left of centre to Mwalimu, even the Marxist by Western critique! So there has been much misinformation over the years… Let the process of unearthing the many stories and in particular women's stories of Tanzania's his/herstory continue to make this country a richer nation. We will not be silenced... Let us celebrate the many voices and contributions to our society. This will make us whole. I do not subscribe to the view that only one voice should be accepted as the African Way.
Daniel Welwel: I have been following this discussion from the beginning. The title we have given to the discussion, Was Nyerere such a Dictator? intrigue mixed thoughts. The contributions so far have remained humane and considerate though somewhat simplistic as Demere suggested. If we are to discuss dictatorial tendencies and judge whether Nyerere qualify to be a dictator then we limit ourselves to the ingredients such as was he abiding to democratic principles? Were there structures of democracy in place? Was he listening to others? Did he care explain his decisions and positions on various issues? Did the majority agreed with him? Did he cling in power against the will of the people? Did he squander our resources or steal our money? A list of questions would go on. I for one do not think Nyerere was a dictator. This, however, is not synonymous with saying that he did not have mistakes. After all he still is a human being not an angel. If we have had a participatory presidency I would vote his regime as democratic. One example: It took a while to come up with Arusha declaration and literature has it that it was quite a struggle with opposing views expressed openly. Thereafter it was all public and no secrets were kept. The same cannot be said for Zanzibar-God forbid-declaration.
Ernest Wamba: On this question of leader and leadership, we need to move away from simple comparison of so-called 'leaders'. What is needed is to examine situations, current situations in Lenin's sense and what could be seen as the leadership actions required by the situation and see whose actions perfectly orient/deal best with that situation. Against Us imperialism, in the epoch of 'cold war', we may compare the leadership of say, Giap/Ho Chi Minh, Nyerere, Che, Castro, Allende, Mobutu. Within Africa, we may compare say, Nyerere, Lumumba, Nkrumah. Surviving may prove to be a better leadership than easily being killed like Lumumba. Of course, this needs a sound grasp of the successive current situations. It may be that a particular leader may be better in a situation, leadership wise than in other situations. It is also possible that one may prove good in all situations one is involved in. This could be a model of leader. I am just speculating, to move away from, N is good, n is bad.
RedDevil
JF-Expert Member
- Apr 30, 2009
- 2,367
- 1,520
Thanks Mwanakijiji kwa kuturudisha nyuma!
Inshu kubwa hapa naona watu wanajaribu kukwepa factors nyingi kuzievaluate kama Natural factors, Influence za wakoloni kipindi hicho, Manpower tuliyokuwa nayo, uchanga wa nchi yetu. Hadi mwalimu anastep down, kulikuwa na kila aina ya walafi walikuwa wanatuwinda kila kona na siyo Tanganyika tu bali kila nchi ilikuwa inawindwa vilivyo kama ilivyosasa. Alichofanya mwalimu ni kuhakikisha walafi hawapati nafasi ya kutengeneza matabaka kama leo.
Inshu kubwa hapa naona watu wanajaribu kukwepa factors nyingi kuzievaluate kama Natural factors, Influence za wakoloni kipindi hicho, Manpower tuliyokuwa nayo, uchanga wa nchi yetu. Hadi mwalimu anastep down, kulikuwa na kila aina ya walafi walikuwa wanatuwinda kila kona na siyo Tanganyika tu bali kila nchi ilikuwa inawindwa vilivyo kama ilivyosasa. Alichofanya mwalimu ni kuhakikisha walafi hawapati nafasi ya kutengeneza matabaka kama leo.
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