Bomba la Gesi Mtwara:A "20 -Year Grace Period" ya Mkopo wa Exim Bank-China ni "Changa la Macho?!".

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Pasco, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. P

    Pasco JF Platinum Member

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    Wanabodi, kwa hisani ya mwana jf mwenzetu,

    Nimefanikiwa kutembelea huko na kuiona sura ya masharti ya kukopa kutoka Exim Bank ya Uchina, japo mimi sio mtaalam wa uchumi, ila there is something fishy!.

    Unapewa mkopo mkubwa mnene wa masharti nafuu ya ajabu with grace period ya miaka 20 ndipo uanze kulipa tena kwa riba ndogo ajabu ya asilimia 01% tuu!.

    Niliposoma masharti ya awali, nikakuta mfano huu mkopo wetu wa Dola bilioni 1.2 utaanza kulipwa mwaka 2032!, ila katika hii miaka 20 ya grace period, kila mwaka tunatakiwa kulipa ile interest ya 01% ya dola bilioni 1.2 ni dola milioni 1,200 kwa mwaka!. Kwa ile miaka 20 tuu ya grace period, tutakuwa tumelipa riba ya dola milioni 24,000,000 hapo ndio bado hatujaanza kulipa deni!.

    Wachumi na wana mahesabu hebu angalieni hii kitu!, correct me if I'm wrong!, kumbe hicho kinachodaiwa kuitwa ni grace period ya miaka 20 huku tukilipa interest, sio grace period lolote, sii chochote!.

    My Take:
    Lengo sio kuibeza serikali tena mimi ni miongoni mwa wale ma supporter gesi ije Dar!, bali tunahitaji tuu uwazi Jee this time kwenye mkataba wa bomba la gesi, tumeingia mkataba wa aina gani?. Tutaulipa kwa miaka mingapi?, Ukipiga thamani ya mkopo ambao ni dola bilioni 1.2, kwa interest ya asilimia 01% kuanzia mwaka 2032, jee tutalipa deni kwa miaka mingapi?. Jee jumla tutakuwa tumelipa kiasi gani?!.
     
  2. Bulldog

    Bulldog JF-Expert Member

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    Kwahiyo inamaana kwamba baada ya hiyo miaka 20 tutaendelea kulipa hiyo riba?
     
  3. Return Of Undertaker

    Return Of Undertaker JF-Expert Member

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    Ndo manaake
     
  4. omujubi

    omujubi JF-Expert Member

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    asante Pasco kwa kuja kihivi
     
  5. JUST

    JUST JF-Expert Member

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    Ndugu Pasco hiyo ni sahihi kabisa na ni kawaida ya mikopo yenye kupewa Grace period. katika kipindi hicho hauitajiki kurudisha makato ya mwezi bali ile riba ambayo ungepaswa kurudisha pamoja na rejesho la mwezi. hali hiyo husaidia benki kuendesha gharama za kudeal na mkopo mpaka utakapoanza kurejesha mkopo husika na riba iliyobaki. na dhiada ni kwamba aina hii ya mikopo hutolewa mahususi pale mkopeshwaji hawezi kuanza rejesho mapema kutokana na investiment ya kusudi la kukopa amabayo return yake ni baada ya kukamilika kwa investiment husika.
     
  6. Bujibuji

    Bujibuji JF-Expert Member

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    Nchi hiii huliwa na wageni, mafisadi wanagawa bure rasilimali zetu
     
  7. Money Stunna

    Money Stunna JF-Expert Member

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    The Cost Of Being A Beggar,A Beggars Has No Choice


    Beggars are greatly subjected to humiliation. They have to bear the taunts of people. People call them names. They do not feel small in extending their bowl. Once the habit of begging is formed, it becomes their psyche. Some beggars, even sustaining their economic condition, do not give up their habit of begging. Thus begging becomes their second nature.

    Nations that develop the habit of begging in the form of foreign aid to raise developmental level are always at the mercy of their donor. Such nations do not achieve glory. They, however, have pledged their self-esteem for availing the foreign aid. The donor starts taking hold of his affairs. The donor eventually becomes a self appointed adviser for that nation. The intrusions and interferences of the donor in his personal matters irk the recipient at many times. Thus this process procreates new master-slave relationship in which there is no dignity for the slave. It evinces that no nation can climb up the stairs of progress and prosperity unless it undergoes the phenomenal uplift of self esteem and self reliance.
     
  8. Lambardi

    Lambardi JF-Expert Member

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    Hivi hao Bank hawana hata huruma na kutuma wataalam neutral wapitie hiyo cost?maana wame inflate na mzigo utakuja kwa wananchi walalhoi na walipa kodi wachache....wao mafisadi wameneemeka na familia zao na kututambia mitaani kwa utajiri uliokithiri!
     
  9. Chimbuvu

    Chimbuvu JF-Expert Member

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    Figure zako haziko sawa mkuu.kama unatumia tarakimu tumia tarakimu,kama unatumia maneno tumia maneno.
    1% ya dola bill 1.2 ni usd 12mill kwa mwaka, na kwa miaka 24 ni dola million 240 kama interest.
    Hiyo ni sawa kama mmekopa kwa uzalishaji na hata bank zipo hivyo kama ukichukua mkopo mfano real estate wa millioni 200 kwa miaka 20 at the end unakuja lipa total zaidi ya 380mill na kadri muda ukiongeza na return inaongezeka.
    Dawa ya hii ni kufanya deni liwe la muda mfupi ndio mtalipia interest kidogo lakini hatuwezi fanya hivyo kwa sababu hatujajua biashara ya gas itaendaje.
    Kwa hiyo hii ni sawa mkuu kwa sababu hata hapo mlipokopa hizo ela zina kazi na ukichukua lazima urudishe interest.
     
  10. SMU

    SMU JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu, hebu tuwekee hizo namba vizuri ili tuweze kuchangia mjadala huu kwa ufasaha zaidi.
     
  11. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Kuna document moja ya msingi sana kuhusu maslahi ya China katika Afrika. Ina somo zuri sana la namna ya kuichukulia kwa tahadhari misaada ya China kwa Afrika. Mwenye nafasi na aisome ni nzuri sana, naiweka hapa kama attachment
     

    Attached Files:

  12. M

    Mkeshaji JF-Expert Member

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    Pasco bana, kigeugeu kweli!

    Kwa taarifa yako hayo ni mojawapo ya mambo ambayo watu wa Mtwara wanahoji na kuyapigania. Bahati mbaya ulishindwa kuwaelewa kwa sababu wao hawana uwezo wa kuyaweka kitaalamu namna hiyo.

    Siku nyingine kabla hujampinga mtu jaribu kuweka madai yake katika lugha yako ili ujue mtu huyo anataka nini badala ya kumbeza kwa sababu tu ameongea katika lugha ambayo "si ya kitaalamu".

    Hapo kwenye mahela hebu jaribu kufafanua kidogo:
    ....dola milioni 1,200 kwa mwaka...
    ....tutakuwa tumelipa riba ya dola milioni 24,000,000.....

    Hebu fafanua kidogo hapo umemaanisha nini.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2016
  13. Sangarara

    Sangarara JF-Expert Member

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    Interest ni ndogo sana, lakini kwa nini tuanze kulipa mkopo baada ya 20 years? inamaana payback period ya hiyo investment ni twenty years or more? Sidhani kama investment za kwenye energy industry zina payback period ndefu namna hiyo, wataalamu wa fedha walioshiriki kwenye kukubaliana terms of payment wanapaswa kutujuza relevance ya hizo terms?
     
  14. Patriote

    Patriote JF-Expert Member

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    Ina maana katika investment ya bomba tunategemea mradi huo utengemae lini na return on investment ianze kuonekana lini??after 20 years??? Huoni hapa ndo tunapojiumiza wenyewe??Why should it take such a long time?? Kama hela inakuja then yote inakuwa directed kwenye mradi husika, kwann tukae miaka 20?? Tatizo letu ni kukopa kwa ajili ya bomba la gesi, then hela ikifika, tunaanza kuitumia kwenye safari za Rais na kulipana mishahara na kufacilitate vikao.


    After all is it worth kujenga bomba tu kwa mihela yote hiyo?? Trilion 1.8? Is it really worth?? Hiyo hela ingeshindwa kunnua mtambo wa kufua umeme na kujenga grid mpya ya taifa na kusambaza umeme huko kusin? No wonder tunaburuzwa hivi kwenye ujenzi wa hilo bomba, kumbe kuna hela ndefu hivi???Ujenzi wa hili bomba inabidi tuutazame kwa microscopic eyes. Tutalizwa tu mana tunaelekea kwenye uchaguzi wa 2015.
     
  15. Ndahani

    Ndahani JF-Expert Member

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    Deni la Taifa linaendelea kukua kwa nguvu, kasi na ari mpya.I hope we get the actual value for money in these projects going on around.
     
  16. Z

    Zero One Two JF-Expert Member

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    Unategeme Mchina awekeze Tanzania ili ainufaishe Tanzania? Lah! Hasha anacho vuna huku anapeleka kwao ili akainufaishe china na watu wake na sio Tanzania. Sie si tunajidai wajinga
     
  17. Manyi

    Manyi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu Chimbuvu, na wewe unaweza usiwe sahihi katika hii kokoteo la riba. Kama hiyo riba imekuwa pegged at a straight line basis then itakuwa sawa! Lakini kama ni reducing balance basi ujue hiyo riba haitakuwa sawa, nenda kwa excel (spread sheet solutions, insert loan amortization schedule) then unashusha vitu uone!
     
  18. Manyi

    Manyi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu, hii inatisha, nimeona ni-copy hizi paragraphs..

    "China’s involvement could threaten this African renaissance. Growing Chinese loans to Africa, especially at high commercial rates, could threaten billions in recent forgiveness by the World Bank and IMF’s Heavily Indebted Poor Countries Initiative, since China also loans to these nations.

    If China uses aid tied to investment to win major oil and gas deals, it could convince other emerging powers in Africa, like India, to follow suit, potentially undermining governance and sparking conflict for resources. Chinese arms sales continue to fuel conflict in Africa;

    China publishes no information about its arms transfers overseas, and a recent Amnesty International report found 17 percent of small arms collected by peacekeepers in the Congo were of Chinese design. "

    Na hii;
    "Chinese investment could contribute to unchecked environmental destruction and poor labor standards, since Chinese firms have little experience with green policies and unions at home, and some African nations have powerful union movements. In Gabon, illegal timber exports to China comprise roughly 70 percent of all timber exports.

    In Zambia, workers in a Chinese-run mine have erupted in violent protest against safety standards and low wages, which they believe led to an accident last year in which 49 miners died.

    In the recent Zambian election, opposition candidate Michael Sata played on this anger, accusing Chinese companies of exploiting local workers. Though Sata lost, his supporters then rioted in the Zambian capital, targeting Chinese businesses."
     
  19. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Umeona eeh?
    Jamaa mbovu sana kwenye namba
     
  20. Idimi

    Idimi JF-Expert Member

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    Amavubi, usisahau hii pia!
    Kule wilayani Chunya mkoani Mbeya, Wachina walifunga mtambo wa kuchimba dhahabu kwenye mto na kuziba mtiririko wa mto. Gazeti la Raia Mwema liliandika makala kadhaa kulaani hali hii, hadi serikali ikachukua hatua kuufunga mgodi ule. Misitu ya asili kule Lindi na Mtwara pia inaishi mikononi mwa hawa hawa wanaotandaza bomba kwa sasa.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2016
  21. K

    Kidzude JF-Expert Member

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    Wabongo tumerogwa si bure. Hivi mtwara hawawezi kuzalisha umeme? mpaka dar
     
  22. M

    Mwana wa Nuru JF-Expert Member

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    Suala hapa si makosa madogomadogo ya namba, kwa anayejua apige mwenyewe hesabu alafu atuambie kama gharama halisi ya mradi huo wa bomba ni ndogo kuliko kuitumia hiyo gesi huko Mtwara kwa kujenga viwanda vyote muhimu na kusafirisha bidhaa zake tokea Mtwara, ikizingatiwa kuwa kuna bandari ya kina kirefu cha asili.

    Mawazo yangu huu unaweza kuwa ni mradi mwingine wa kifisadi ambao watu wachache wameshapata vijisenti vyao na wakaviweka uswisi au udongini.Na nadhani watu hao wanampango wa kushinda uchaguzi wa 2015 kwa kishindo cha rushwa baada ya kukataliwa na wenyenchi kiasi cha kuwazomea kila wafanyapo mikutano ya hadhara hasa bila ya kuwabeba wasikilizaji wake.
    Kwa leo nisingependa kutaja mtu wala vyama kwani suala hilini la kitaifa zaidi na madhara yake ni kwetu sote wenyenchi.
     
  23. Patriote

    Patriote JF-Expert Member

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    Mbaya zaid ni hiyo cost, TRILLION 1.8 ni zaidi ya 10% ya budget ya Tanzania kwa mwaka. Hivi kweli ni sahihi kuzitumia kwa ujenzi wa bomba wakati kuna issues za msingi nyingi sana za kufanywa na serikali haina hela ya kuzifanya. Ni wananchi wangap wana uwezo wa kupata access ya hiyo Gesi ambayo tunang'ang'ana kuifikisha dar?? Kwann tunataka kuingia kwenye cost zisizo za maana?? Yaani tutandaze bomba hadi dar kwa 1.8 TRILLION, HAPO RIBA NA ADA YA MKOPO BADO. Halafu bomba likifika Dar tujenge mtambo wa kufua umeme, Halafu tujenge Grid ya Taifa kutoka Dar kuja tena Mtwara, kuwaletea wana Mtwara umeme wa Grid ya Taifa.

    Hivi unahitaji kuwa Professor kweli kujua kuwa hapa tunafanya nonsense??Kwann tusiachene na gharama za hilo bomba ili tuokoa hizo 1.8+ Trilion na nguvu hiyo tuielekeze kwenye ujenzi wa grid itayobeba huo umeme to DSM??? au mazingira ya dar ndiyo pekee yanayoweza kuuzalisha huo umeme???
     
  24. Nono

    Nono JF-Expert Member

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    Hata mie singeona taabu kukopa, kwani kabla ya kuanza kulipa deni nitakuwa nimelipa riba ambayo ni sawa na 20% tu ya nilichokopa. Ndani ya miaka 20, lazima niwe nimejizatiti kulipa deni. Unaweza kunikopesha kwa utaratibu huu?
     
  25. F

    FJM JF-Expert Member

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    Dawa hawa ni kuweka makaratasi yote mezani ili kama kuna makosa yarekebishwe kabla hatajapata hasara. Kama saga ya Gati na CCCC inatufundisha kitu basi hapa tungepitia upya kila sentensi kwenye huo mkataba. Sidhani kama Ngeleja alisoma hata paragraph ya mwanzo kabla ya ku-sign!
     
  26. Ulukolokwitanga

    Ulukolokwitanga JF-Expert Member

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    Pasco,

    Kwa namna hesabu zako zilivyo kama tukiwa tuna ''service loan'' kwa riba hiyo ya 01% kwa mwaka ina maana tutalipa kama 12,000,000= kwa mwaka na kwa miaka 20 ni 240,000,000= Hapa ni mkopo wa gharama nafuu kabisa na hata uende kwenye benki yenye huruma kiasi gani ni mara chache kupata kiasi hicho. Ukiangalia opportunity cost ya hiyo hela hawa jamaa wangeenda kukopesha sehemu nyingine kwa riba kubwa kwa dunia inakabiliwa na upungufu mkubwa sana wa mitaji, both US and Europe. Kwangu mimi huu mkopo ni mzuri na rahisi sana kimasharti....

    Tatizo ninaloliona mimi ni kuwa gharama za huo mradi ziko inflated kwa kiasi kikubwa mno, huenda hawa wachina na viongozi wa CCM wanafidia hiyo riba ndogo kwa kupiga cha juu kikubwa kwenye gharama za utengenezaji wa pipeline za gesi. The price is highest the world has ever seen so far for the size and length of the pipe
     
  27. Tai Ngwilizi

    Tai Ngwilizi JF-Expert Member

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    Inaweza ikawa sawa iwapo tu miradi inayokusudiwa kutokana na hiyo gesi itatekelezwa haraka iwezekanavyo na itasimamiwa kikamilifu, iwe sustainable na ili ilete faida. Tatizo kubwa ni hii habari ya ufisadi.....

    mpaka sasa hivi mikataba ya utafutaji na uvunaji wa gesi na hayo makampuni 26 husika haipo wazi. Hata mkataba wa British Gas ambayo wizara ya nishati na madini inasema BG wenyewe wangependelea iwekwe wazi kwa wananchi nao pia sijui hata pa kuupata...

    Sera ya gesi "kama dira ya kuongoza utafutaji na uvunaji wa gesi asili" (nukuu kutoka taarifa iliyopo kwenye tovuti ya wizara) ndio inaandaliwa sasa, wakati ambapo tayari mikataba imeshasainiwa, pesa zimekopwa, na projects zinaendelea, yaani mikataba inasainiwa na projects zinaanza halafu sera na dira na mwongozo vinafuatia nyuma....sijasomea uchumi lakini hii hai make sense kabisa kwangu ..

    Isitoshe, kwa taarifa za hiyo hiyo wizara ya madini na nishati uvumbuzi wa gesi Tanzania ulianza tangu mwaka 1974 japo haikuwa nyingi kama hii ya Mtwara, sasa serikali ilikuwa wapi kuweka sera, dira na miongozo hadi leo hii?

    kwa hiyo sintashangaa kama mwisho wa siku huu mkopo utakuwa mgogoro na mzigo kwa taifa...
     
  28. s

    sanjo JF-Expert Member

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    This is the actual picture you have portlayed for the existing relationship being pursued by Chinese investors on other developing countries. They are here for business. Always business is business, there is no charity motive attached to it. The key strategy is to minimize cost and pocket the difference. These investors they can use several cosmetic sweeteners to disguise the real motive such that the exploited might think these investors are interested in her /her development. We have to stand for ourselves because nobody can stand for our rights.
     
  29. Bouncer

    Bouncer JF-Expert Member

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    Pasco anajua anachofanya, na kama alivyojitanabaisha kwamba anaunga mkono hiyo gesi kuja dar bado hajabadili msimamo. Hata hii post kaitoa akijua haina nguvu bali ionyeshe kuwa yuko concerned na maslahi ya nchi hii. Na atakaporudi kutetea hii project awe tayari na mtaji wa masalia wanaomuunga mkono kutokea kwenye hii post.
    Amecopy na kupaste mbinu ya zzk ya kuomba radhi huku akiwa na hidden agenda!
     
  30. Tai Ngwilizi

    Tai Ngwilizi JF-Expert Member

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    nimeisoma document, asante Idimi. Lakini kwa kweli wa west wanaendelea kututesa na grants zao zenye masharti yanayotudidimiza na yanayowapa mwanya wa kuendelea ku iba raslimali zetu wanafanya neo colonialism mchana kweupe...e.g kwenye MKUKUTA kuna mengi tu yanayosikitisha. hatuna viwanda, elimu ya sec na vyuo dorora, kilimo kiliwekwa pembeni, sasa wanaongelea commercial farming...mkulima wa kawaida atafaidika vipi?

    mchina naye ana mapungufu yake kwa sababu anataka faida pia, ila document nzima imejaa bias, tuchukulie document za namna hii kwa uangalifu. Africa imedeal na west countries/IFM/WB tangu uhuru lakini hakukuwa na matumaini hata wachina nao walikuwa kwenye hali mbaya hadi miaka ya 90...walau after 2000 wachina walipoanza kuja huku, mambo yakaanza kubadilika...maana inaelekea mChina kawa kama mshindani wao....sasa inaelekea wanataka mchina awe "collaborative actor" na wao ili kuitafuna Africa kwa style yao. Nawapongeza angola kwa kuwapa mradi wa mafuta la sivyo hata hiyo town ya bilion 3 waliyojengewa wasingekuwa nayo, kama sisi na dhahabu yetu faida ipo wapi?

    Laiti viongozi wetu wangezingatia kwamba hakuna msaada wa bure kila dola inayotolewa lazima irudi ilikotoka na faida...Natamani viongozi wetu wa Africa wange acha ubinafsi na kuwa makini katika kuhakikisha taifa linafaidika bila kujikita kwenye masharti magumu ya kudidimiza nchi nzima, deals ziwekwe wazi na kwa faida ya wananchi anayetaka asign asiyetaka aanze mbele si mchina wala mmagharibi...
     

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