If our President has more than one wife: The question of human rights

Well, I think this matter is rather complex but paradoxically simple one at the same time. Kikwete having been used as a case study for "How leaders should exemplify social practices that are in line with modern perceptions of MORALITY I will use him in my argument, refering to his cultural background, religious beliefs as well as the general practice of Tanzanian men that he represents as President.

Mr Kikwete is a Kwere from Bagamoyo. It, being a coastal area it was heavily influenced by Arab and Islamic culture from the early period of trade contacts between the indeginous peoples of the East African coast and Arab traders from what is now Oman and the surrounding area of the Arab peninsula. As a result of this contact, most societies in the coastal areas are Muslims and follow the Sunni tradition of the faith.
The people of the area have been known to practice polygamy, as permitted by the Quran for centuries now. Unfortunately, due to limited time as I am writing this off the head, I was unable to do adequate research into the pre-islamic Kware practices.. therefore I will not include as a part of my argument, the posibility that Kwere people practiced Polygamy even before the Arab influence.

Anti-polygamists in this thread argue that its a bad import from our past and that it has to be abolished because its unfair or something like that. I have argued that when consideration was put into the contents of S. 9 of the Marriage Act, it was appreciated that a significant proportion of the indegionous as well as Muslim populace (Shia ith'nashree, Sunni, Ismailia [under all schools ie Hanbali, Hanafi, shafii, suffi etc]) were practitioners of this form of marriage. That is why it is legal. It was practiced then and now in seemingly similar proportions. This nullifies the argument that it is a 'bad import from the past' because it is not the past if there has not been a significant reduction in the practice. I acknowledge that it would be difficult to ascertain this argument due to lack of records but I will make a few calculated guesses to supplement where necessary. Please feel free to launch any counter argument that suffices the rules of logic and perhaps evidence where available. But in essence, Parliament in all its wisdom recognised the existence of such practices in the (60s-70s) and enacted accordingly. The question that arises is of course, has Tanzanian society changed its values and perspective as to what morality is and in particular regarding marriage as an institution and all social aspects related thereto?

Kikwete has done no wrong on a legal scale as well as a moral one.. if we were to create a moral scale based on the practices of an average Tanzanian who he represents. It signifies poor logic when someone who considers them self to be modern and "civilized" ,whatever that may mean, compares something that is widely practiced in many societies in the world and is considered to be moral, with walking around with a runny nose.

It gives me great discomfort to consider religious doctrine in this matter, but I think considering the fact that 35% of Tanzanians in the mainland are Muslims and 99% in the Zanzibar Islands, it would be ill guided for me to overlook it or as others have claimed, 'it is not a religious issue". I am of the opinion that they fail to recognise the paramount importance that faith plays in shaping morality and cultural practices in society. Kikwete as a muslim is allowed to marry up to 4 wives (with the consent of the 1st wife and having to treat them equally). This is a matter dealt with directly in the Quran, in an express manner. (4:3, 4:129). Belief in the Quran as the undeniable revelation of God upon mankind is one of the key beliefs in Islam. There is no Muslim that stands today on this planet that doubts the words of the Quran, for to doubt them would void their faith as muslims. That being the case, only interpretation is up for discussion amongst muslims (I thought it important to relate this point for the benefit of those unaware of the unshakable primacy of the Quran in the eyes of Muslims). This means that 35% of Tanzanians believe that, polygamy is moral and within acceptable limits of social practices. Further the other 35% of Tanzanians who adhere to traditional beliefs also (to a considerable extend although not all of them) accept polygamy as moral and justifiable.. A conservative estimate of about 50% of the total population would therefore sanction this practice. That is more or less half the country. How can anyone attempt, regardless of whether it is under the banner of feminism, secularism or whatever else, to argue that it is a thing of the past?

NB: I have assumed that Christians as a general segment of society, do not approve of this practice since it is prohibited in their faith and thus a true christian could never support polygamy (as a matter of faith). And I have also taken the liberty to ignore the very small minority of people that are atheists who do not adhere to any formal system of faith nor even the traditional beliefs due to their relatively insignificant influence on national culture.

Kikwete is doing what the majority of Tanzanians believe to be right, and as long that is the view, sioni tatizo likowapi.
 
I have not said that polygamy was an import from another country. It is an import from our own past. Note though that its justification does not stand or fall on its being from the past. Culture is dynamic. We move on with the good and abandon the bad. We have always done that.

Mkandara argues that we should not criticise our President for being a polygamist “because we have no law against polygamy”. But that is holding the Presidency to a very low standard! We have no law against walking around with a running nose either, but we do not expect our President to exercise that liberty! Presidents are expected to be men or women of very high moral standards, and being promiscuous is not one of those!

Verily Verily argues that while our intentions might be good, polygamy cannot be done away with. Yes it can, and it has in fact been done away with in all developed countries. The only reason we continue to cling to it is because we are not only not developed, but we are not even developing (in some departments). We continue to cling to oppressive customs and traditions that lead some of us skin others, slaughter albinos and marry many wives.

The argument that has been advanced by some, repeatedly, that people enter into polygamous marriages willingly and there is therefore nothing wrong with the arrangement is fallacious. We have outlawed many things that are done willingly. Things like euthanasia and homosexuality are illegal in Tanzania and yet they are things that are normally done among consenting adults.

Pundit has accused me of trying to be more Catholic than the Pope! He wonders why I should be concerned about gender rights in a case where women seem to have no problem. Perhaps he missed my story about Malcolm X’s categorization of Negroes. Please indulge me, for it seems to me that it is worth repeating. In one of his man fiery speeches, Malcolm X said: “There are House Negroes and Field Negroes. The House Negro loves his master. When the master is sick, he says “We sick, master?””. Would you not agree with me, dear Pundit, that the House Negro’s human rights were being violated, irrespective of whether he complained or not?
...

Tabia Mbaya kuoa mke wa Pili?...acha uz.... na Genge lenu la TGNP...ni Tabia mbaya kwako, mafeminist wenzako na genge lenu la TGNP...kwetu sisi hio ni Moral Standard za Hali ya Juu na inafaa kuigwa!!!

Please dont mixing up things...slaughter of albino n marrying more than one wife!!!marrying more than one wife is NOT OPPRESSIVE CUSTOMS...its a custom that understand the proper Human being features!!!

out of discussion...Vp Hali ya kwa Mugabe!!!
 
Mr. Augustine Moshi i think your using cheap argument on this case. I don't believe that western culture should be benchmark of everything that Tanzanian plan to execute.

Jakaya believe in Islam. In Islam it's legal to have up to four wives as long as you can take care them in equal manner. So, i don't know what benchmark you're using to get your conclusion. If you judge him from bible point of view, then your wrong because JK is muslim. Also, if your using western world standard, then your wrong because Tanzania has its own culture.

There is a notion that everything that from western world is civilized. I think that is a cheap shot

Inconclusion, i think JK wives doesn't reduce is ability to craft and execute strategy, unless you have another factor. Other than that, please spear your time for something productive.
 
Its simple;

1. Hakuna sheria iliyovunjwa

2. Two or more consented adults agreed in relations

Why are the fuss! Pathetic!
 
Tafadhali naomba refrence ya huu mgao wa waislamu kuwa 35% au kuna aliyetuambia mapema, eti wakatoliki ndio majority wa Wakristo.
 
Nyani Ngabu,

Homosexuality has always been illegal in Tanzania. And rightly so too. But I digress. You state that it is not possible to legislate love. That may be so, but you certainly can legislate against polygamy. That is not legislating against love (unless love is polygamy and it clearly isn't)

If you legislate polygamy then what's next? You legislate infidelity also? And which is worse, polygamy or infidelity?
 
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Mwalimu Moshi

Mimi nadhani hili swala linategemea mtizamo.

Hivi tunaposema moral standards, tunakuwa tunamanisha standards zipi? tunatumia morals zipi na za nani kama vigezo? Tunaposema "civilized world" tunakuwa tuna maana gani?

Yes, wenzangu hapa wanasema kwamba western standards should not be our benchmarks because we are Africans. Granted. LAKINI si ni sisi hawa hawa waafrika ambao tumekubali kusaini hizo human rights conventions? Kwa nini hatukukataa kwamba zinaenda kinyume na maadili yetu? Talk of hypocricy! Au tulikuwa hatujui tulitendalo wakati tunasaini?

Hebu nionyesheni ambapo TANZANIA tulikataa kwamba hizi human rights za wazungu hazitufai? Infact tumesaini madocuments yote bila hata reservations! Kusema kwamba JK ana wake wawili kwa hiyo ni vibaya, mi nadhani tunajicontradict wenyewe. tunapokubali standards za western countries kwa kusaini hayo matamko ya human rights na baadaye tunakataa kutekeleza yaliyomo kwa vile sisi sio wazungu nk..nadhani ni unafiki wa hali ya juu na UJINGA. Na wao wana haki kabisa ya kudemand accountability kutoka kwetu. Kwa hiyo kuwatukana TGNP au akina Kijo-Bisimba ni kuwaonea..maana wao wanahimiza watu watimize wajibu wao si zaidi ya hapo!

Ni kweli wazungu hawaamini katika ndoa ya mke zaidi ya mmoja. Sasa kama waafrika tunaamini katika hizo ndoa..kwa nini tulikubaliana nao in the first place? Au watu mnafikiri hiyo international community ni jina la mbege? HAPANA NI JINA LA MATAIFA YENYE NGUVU... KWA HIYO UKICHEZA WATAKUENDESHA TUU. JK kama rubani wetu ambaye anakimbia kila siku duniani akituingiza kwenye hiyo mikataba na matamko ya kimataifa kuuonyesha ulimwengu alivyo mstari wa mbele kulinda human rights..basi hana budi kukubaliana na matakwa ya hayo matamko....akijificha chini ya kapeti la uislamu au Uafrika..ni unafiki.


By the way msije mkashangaa Tanzania inasaign mkataba wa kulinda/kukubaliana na ushoga..harafu kesho eti Mashoga wanapigwa mawe ..kwamba vitendo vyao havikubaliki katika nchi yetu...well...mkinyimwa misaada ndo mtajua. Kama kitu hukitaki..say so and stand your ground! No shortcut!

Jamani langu ni hili: Waafrika tuache unafiki. The so called international community ni very dangerous. wao wanatake their rights seriously. Sasa kama nyinyi mnasaini tuu...then mjue kwamba iko siku yatawakuta. Kama hamjui muulizeni Bashir na mkasa wa ICC atawaambieni.
 
Mr. Augustine Moshi i think your using cheap argument on this case. I don't believe that western culture should be benchmark of everything that Tanzanian plan to execute.

Jakaya believe in Islam. In Islam it's legal to have up to four wives as long as you can take care them in equal manner. So, i don't know what benchmark you're using to get your conclusion. If you judge him from bible point of view, then your wrong because JK is muslim. Also, if your using western world standard, then your wrong because Tanzania has its own culture.

There is a notion that everything that from western world is civilized. I think that is a cheap shot

Inconclusion, i think JK wives doesn't reduce is ability to craft and execute strategy, unless you have another factor. Other than that, please spear your time for something productive.
hapa umemaliza mchezo mwanangu! tangu umeanza huu mjadala hichi ndicho nilichokuwa najaribu kuelezea , lakini si unajua tena sie wengine tumekimbia umande kwahivyo kilugha kikawa kinanipiga chenga , lakini mwanangu hii point yako haipingiki , ni ukweli mtupu! niliwahi kuwaona jamaa hapa bongo wanajisafisha kinyesi kwa kutumia makaratasi na wakawa wapo very proud kwamba hiyo ndio civilization , just bcoz western world wanafanya hivyo. aaakhh sijui lini tutaacha hii tabia ya kuwafanya western world ndio kioo cha ustaarabu?
 
Wakuu,
Let's cut the crap!..
Baada ya kusoma tena mada hii nimegundua kwamba swala hapa sio Polygamy au mke mmoja isipokuwa kuna watu wanataka kujua kwa nini Kikwete anamficha mke wake wa pili...
Hizo sababu zote zinazohusu maswali mengi kuhusiana na Polygamy ni uzushi mtupu na kama kuna mtu kweli anataka kuelewa kwa nini wazee wetu ama jamaa zetu bado wanaoa wake zaidi ya mmoja nadhani jibu zuri litakuwa wawaulize wale waliooa..
Na kama swali linahusiana na ruksa ktk dini ya Kiislaam au mila zetu hii basi naomba mtu huyo alielekeze swali kwangu nitamjibu lakini sio hapa.. twende huko Uwanja wa fisi - DINI..

Kitu kimoja tu nachoomba tusitumie lugha chafu ama kupakana badala yake tutumie muda huo kuelimishana..
Sasa ikiwa Kikwete ana mke wa Pili ambaye inasemekana ni mtoto, sijui mjomba wa RA hapo tena shughuli nyingine na nadhani mada hii itapata sauti zaidi kuliko kuzunguka mbuyu kutumia Polygamy kama sababu...
Huwezi kulinganisha Usenge na Polygamy hata kidogo kwa sababu usenge ni choice inayolenga NGONO na Polygamy ni Traditional family values...pamoja na kwamba wengi wetu tumetumia ruksa na sheria hii ya kimila (NDOA) vibaya, lakini lengo na madhumuni ni kumfunga mwanamme ktk majukumu...
 
Usiwasingizie Waafrika, unafiki ni kuamini kingine na kutenda kinyume chake, ukatai ploygamy na uwe na vimada pembeni. Hivi western norms zinazotetewa za kina Clinton/walinski? Waafrika tuna uungwana wa Asili, sisi siyo premitive, wacheni kujitukana. Hivo bado tuna fikra za kuwaenzi Mabwana zetu!
 
"Tafadhali naomba refrence ya huu mgao wa waislamu kuwa 35% au kuna aliyetuambia mapema, eti wakatoliki ndio majority wa Wakristo"

Nationality:
noun: Tanzanian(s)
adjective: Tanzanian
Ethnic groups:
mainland - African 99% (of which 95% are Bantu consisting of more than 130 tribes), other 1% (consisting of Asian, European, and Arab); Zanzibar - Arab, African, mixed Arab and African
Religions:
mainland - Christian 30%, Muslim 35%, indigenous beliefs 35%; Zanzibar - more than 99% Muslim

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tz.html
 
By now through this topic, it is well know for most of us that there are some of Tanzanians to date when talking about women, they still consider as taboo topic. Anything that involves empowering women of Tanzania seems to be something that Tanzanian community is scared of. Even it comes a point where people like Chuma (one contributor of this JF) have so unsuitable and inconsiderable points in valuing the contribution of women human right campaigners in Tanzania?

How can we even talk about Tanzanian developments while empowering women topics we see it as a taboo? If our women population is almost 2:1 to men, how can we avoid empowering them to be independent? Why do we JF members who are fighting day and day to bring changes in Tanzania cant be the one to grab every corner of opportunities that can be seen as a key to development in Tanzania and empower it.

If the majority of voters in Tanzania are women, then these women needs to know their rights that include rights to make their own choices in their lives, right to have happy families, right to choose and divorce a husband, right to work and be a productive member of the society, and right to see what value they have inside them.

We should empower them to know that they are not just objects that have to be used by men for sexual satisfactions. And we should educate them to know that they are human beings who are supposed to be loved and shown love and respect in everywhere that include in public, Why do you have to marry someone and hide her?

My fellow Tanzanian we cant move forward if we keep having this attitude of looking at women as just second class citizen, these are people who live longer than men in our community, for them being independent is something much important to our nation. Men have to have in their mind and start to plan the future of their families when they are not in the world any more, and hence we can have stable families.

We can not deny our culture whatever that means, however we can not keep passing what is irrelevant in our way of living today. Culture does change with generation and technology and we should start appreciating that and dance our own music. We should look at China and see how they are developing. Those people they empower their women, they changed their culture to make sure it fit with reality of life at the right time.

China saw what high population has cause to their economy and what they did, they introduce the law that will give families benefit and economic development and same time improving overall country economy. We are so behind china at least at 200yrs and 400 yrs for Americans and we still keep being ignorant to embrace changes in our way of living that will benefit us and next generation.

If we are going to keep being that, then we should all sign out of this JF and keep being best friends of mafisadi as I have always had a faith in JF members as a mirror to the future Tanzania. Lets not waste our time and energy to talk on embracing the 20th cultures that brought us we are we are today. We should keep them in history and teach our children and learn from mistake we made before. Lets cry for the Bright, and developed Tanzania Please.
 
Wakuu,
Let's cut the crap!..
Baada ya kusoma tena mada hii nimegundua kwamba swala hapa sio Polygamy au mke mmoja isipokuwa kuna watu wanataka kujua kwa nini Kikwete anamficha mke wake wa pili...

Naungana nawe Mkandara, kwanini JK amfiche mkewe? Na kama yupo basi awekwe hadharani tumuone walao hata kwa picha basi. Husband must be proud of his wife, unless otherwise!! Vinginevyo maelezo mengi yaliyotolewa hapa isije ikawa twapoteza muda wa bure kumbe huyo mke hayupo na ni uzushi wa kuchafuliana tu!!
 
Wakuu,
Let's cut the crap!..
Baada ya kusoma tena mada hii nimegundua kwamba swala hapa sio Polygamy au mke mmoja isipokuwa kuna watu wanataka kujua kwa nini Kikwete anamficha mke wake wa pili...

Naungana nawe Mkandara, kwanini JK amfiche mkewe? Na kama yupo basi awekwe hadharani tumuone walao hata kwa picha basi. Husband must be proud of his wife, unless otherwise!! Vinginevyo maelezo mengi yaliyotolewa hapa isije ikawa twapoteza muda wa bure kumbe huyo mke hayupo na ni uzushi wa kuchafuliana tu!!


Amweke hadharani mwarabu we thubutu!
 
hapa mie sijaona jambo la msingi! ...... aliyeolewa hajaona kama kanyimwa ama kukatazwa haki yake.....hajalazimishwa. iweje haki yake tuione sisi na siyo yeye? What is not right for the rest can be right for someone provided it does not contradict laws of the land
 


Jamani eeehhh, yote ya nini haya?...enzi za Bi Sitti na bi Khadija paliharibika nini? acheni majungu, kama anawamudu Ruksa!

In a big picture; Moi hakuwa akimtoa hadharani 1st lady, Kibaki naye 1st lady ndio hivyo tena anajitoa mwenyewe, ...Kama ni human rights, mkemeeni kwanza King Mswati na Reed dance yake.
 
Well, kama kweli Kikwete anamficha huyo mke (kitu ambacho mimi nadhani ni uzushi tu) basi atakuwa amekosea. Hakuna sababu ya kumficha mke wako au hata mume wako.
 
Now i can see watu tunaongea kitu kimoja... kama mr president ni polygamous kwanini asiweke hadharani? anatudanganya tumpe kula zetu? au ni nini?
 
"Tafadhali naomba refrence ya huu mgao wa waislamu kuwa 35% au kuna aliyetuambia mapema, eti wakatoliki ndio majority wa Wakristo"

Nationality:
noun: Tanzanian(s)
adjective: Tanzanian
Ethnic groups:
mainland - African 99% (of which 95% are Bantu consisting of more than 130 tribes), other 1% (consisting of Asian, European, and Arab); Zanzibar - Arab, African, mixed Arab and African
Religions:
mainland - Christian 30%, Muslim 35%, indigenous beliefs 35%; Zanzibar - more than 99% Muslim

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tz.html

Yo mate! why keeping arguing mambo ya dini? dont you guys learn from other countries kwamba ukichanganya politics and dini umnaishia kupigana? look at wat is happening ni Nageria, na other countries..

afterall we all know most countries ambao wana religion as a country conflicts haziishi.. why trying putting religion here!

Ebwaaa tupo peace Tanzania, msituletee statistics zenu. if we talk this issue lets talk about this not religion, we give a dammy who is who and who is who..religion wise..
 

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