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Profesa Shivji-Maridhiano ya Zanzibar

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by MrFroasty, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. MrFroasty

    MrFroasty JF-Expert Member

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    Prof.Shivji ni mtu mtaalamu na anajua anachokizungumzia.Ni jambo la kusikitisha kuona baadhi ya watu ambao wengi hawajuwi hali halisi ya visiwani Zanzibar na wala hawaathiriki na vurugu za huko.

    Watu hawa ni kama Makamba, Msekwa, Lula wa Ndali-Mwananzela na wengineo wengi kutumia nguvu za ziada kupotosha jitihada za kuleta amani, utulivu na siasa zenye afya visiwani humo.

    Hapa nitakuachieni makala ya Jabiri na mwishowe barua kutoka kwa Prof.Shivji aliyomplekea Karume na Seif kuwapa mwongozo wafanye nini.Iko wazi kabisa kwa muongozo wa Prof.Shivji Zanzibar ina mamlaka halali ya kujibadilishia katiba yake kwa kutumia Baraza la Wawakilishi.Wala haoneshi kama kuweka kipindi cha mpito, na kufanya marekebisho kikatiba ni kosa la jinai.

    Ni kipi haswa kinachopelekea CCM Bara na watu wengine wengi ambao si wazanzibari, kujitolea na kupoteza nguvu na muda wao kuvuruga jitihada hizi za kuleta amani visiwani humo?

    Tukumbuke kuwa jitihada zilishafanyika nyingi na hazikufanikiwa, hii unaweza kusema ni kwa mara ya mwanzo kabisa zinaonesha kukubalika na kufanikiwa.Sasa hawa wanaojitokeza kubeza na kupotosha ili jitihada hizi zikwame, wanatuonesha wazi kuwa vikwazo vya jitihada za awali zilikuwa ni wao!

    Nisiwachoshe...makala na barua hizo:

    Makala ya Jabir

    Barua ya Prof.Shivji kwa Karume na Seif


    P:S
    **Moderators unaweza kuzifanyia ukaratabati hizo text zikakaa vizuri zaidi, naona kuzipaste hapa kama itakuwa long scroll :D
     
  2. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    MrFroasty, bila ya shaka alichosema Prof. Shivji kinaitwa hekima. Sidhani kama kinaweza kuzua mjadala mkubwa. Tatizo ni pale watu wanapoamua kutunga historia au kuficha historia kamili ya Zanzibar au kutoa historia kwa kudonyoa donyoa huku yale mazuri ya kufurahisha ndiyo yanawekwa mbele na mengine hata kutajwa hayatajwi. Zanzibar ina historia yake nzito sana na haikuanzia 1964.

    Ni muhimu Wazanzibar wakumbatie na kukubali historia yao yote na hiyo iwe ni sehemu ya maridhiano hayo.
     
  3. Tumain

    Tumain JF-Expert Member

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    Historia ni kubwa unaelezea historia yako kutegemeana na maudhui ya kongamano lenyewe sioni tatizo kuchagua sehemu ya historia inayofaa kuzungumza kwa mahali na wakati maalum

    Hakuna aliyetunga historia wewe unachotaka watu waeleze historia upendavyo wewe..
     
  4. Kisoda2

    Kisoda2 JF-Expert Member

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    Bravoo Prof.Shivji.
    Tunawataki kila la kheri Wazanibari wote wenye mapenzi mema na nchi yao.
    Muyatafakari kwa kina haya nakuyafanyia kazi.

    Tutafika tu,Inshaalah!
     
  5. MrFroasty

    MrFroasty JF-Expert Member

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    Hii hoja ya historia haina mshiko, mtu kama Msekwa na Makamba wao hawakuumwa kabisa na historia aliyoelezea Maalim Seif.Hawa watu wameonesha kutoridhishwa au kusupport jitihada zote za Karume na Seif.

    Na wamekuwa wakitumia uwezo wao wote walionao ndani ya CCM kuhakikisha hakupatikani amani visiwani humo.Sijawahi kuwasikia hata kutoa pongezi, lakini sijafanya utafiti kuhakikisha kama walitoa pongezo au kuonesha kama wataunga mkono jitihada zozote za reconciliation visiwani humo.

    Au unawaelezea vipi watu hawa?
     
  6. I

    Interested Observer JF-Expert Member

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    Unajua kuna watu very "opportunists"; hivi ndiyo ilivyo kwa Karume na Seif. They have "card" in their hand, na ndiyo wanataka kuhadaa umma. Kama ni solution iwe a National Solution for Total reconciliation. Seif na Karume wapo kwenye secretive negotiations ambazo "umma" hawazijui. Kama kweli CCM na CUF wanataka amani Zanzibar basi iwe a full "Declaration" of a shared Government after 2010; no matter who will be a President, and no matter who will be the candidate out of CUF.

    Haya mambo ya kusema Karume na Seif waelewane, kwa amani ya Zanzibar, naona ni vile vile kama ilivyokuwa Nyerere na Karume senior. There should be a National (Zanzibar) Dialogue, and if possible a line drawn; Zanzibar have to have an interim government for such and such a period of time.

    Seif amekwisha ki-Siasa, Karume hana chance ya third term, then they want to bring this card. Karume why you didn't realize and bring this issue in the yaear 2000? You are seeing this issue at the end of your second term??

    Ok we accept a dialogue, it be a Natinal (Zanzibar); but uchaguzi uendelee tu, hata akija Billali au nani basi afuate muafaka huo huo.
     
  7. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    With all due respect, Prof Issa G. Shivji hajaeleza ni kwa namna gani hoja hizi ni potofu au utofauti na hoja alizonazo kichwani mwake ndio upotofu? Mimi ningedhani angesema "ni mawazo tofauti, badala ya hoja potofu!" Hoja zenyewe hizi hapa chini:
    1. Karume asiongezewe muda wala kipindi kingine cha urais. Hii ni kinyume cha katiba ya nchi na katiba/sera ya CCM.
    2. Katiba isichezewe kwa kubadilisha, badilisha.
    3. Yaliyoanzishwa na Karume, yanaweza kuendelezwa na mrithi wake.
    4. Huwezi kuwa na serikali ya umoja wa kimataifa bila ridhaa ya wananchi, kwa maana ya bila kuwa na kura za maoni.
     
  8. MrFroasty

    MrFroasty JF-Expert Member

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    Guys read the Prof.Shivji's letter properly.Wengi wanaodai kuwa Karume asiongezwe muda ni watu wasiojua matatizo ya Zanzibar.

    Buchanan && Interested Observer, tatizo la Zanzibar ni kutokuaminiana kisiasa na hili tatizo chimbuko liko kwenye chaguzi.

    Hamuwezi kuuliza kwanini Karume hakufanya hivi tokea 2000, wakati ni majuzi tuu 2008 kulikuwa na muafaka wa CCM ukafeli.

    Prof ameelza njia nafikiri takriban 3 ambazo ni possible ways za kupata kiongozi wa kuendesha serekali ya mpito.

    HAKUNA MAHALI AU SEHEMU YOYOTE AMBAYO KUNATAJWA KARUME AONGEZWE 3RD TERM!!!HIZI NDIO HOJA ZA KUPOTOSHA MAADA....

    Kinachozungumzwa hapa ni kufuata Katiba, Karume anamaliza muda wake na kutokana na kuwa sasa hivi uchaguzi utaleta vurugu Zanzibar usogezwe mbele...na serekali iliopo ivunjwe kwa kufuata katiba, na iundwe serekali ya mpito yaani Transitional Government ambayo ifanye au ihusike na kutengeneza mazingira ya kuaminiana na kuondosha siasa chafu na kuleta siasa za ushindani wenye afya....

    Sasa tusikurupuke kama walivyofanya Msekwa na Makamba... :D
     
  9. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Ndugu MrFroasty, mimi nafikiri kwamba tupo pamoja! Ila lugha ya Professor Issa G. Shivji kwamba hoja zilizotolewa ni potofu ndio sikubaliani nayo! Angesema tu kwamba ni hoja tofauti (ambapo kwa kusema hivyo ni kuonyesha kwamba anajali demokrasia), yeye sio Mungu au nabii wa kutabiri kwamba anachokifanya ni sahihi mpaka matokeo ya maamuzi wanayofanywa yaonekane! If that is the case, tupeane benefits of doubt, badala ya kufanya kuwa wengine ni mbumbumbu na wanatakiwa wamsikilize tu Professor akimwaga "nondo zake!"
     
  10. Liz Senior

    Liz Senior JF-Expert Member

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    MrFrosty umesema sahihi na I wish tungekuwa sober wakati tunaliangalia swali hili na tukaachana na ushabiki kama wa watanzania wengi juu ya ligi za ulaya (with due respect) tuwe wakweli na tufanye utafiti wa kutosha kabla ya kutoa kauli nyingi zenye historia potofu. Hili ni jambo la kuangalia kwa umakini. Na kila jitihada inapochukuliwa kumaliza uhasama na kurejesha mahusiano bora isichukuliwe kama njama. Wazanzibari wameumia sana...by the way wote...hata hao walio juu hawana raha ya kuwa hapo..hii itaendelea mpaka lini!!!
     
  11. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    IO.. Profesha Shivji atajibiwa wiki ijayo. Amezungumza kwa hekima lakini amependekeza vitu visivyopaswa tena kwa makosa.
     
  12. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    Buchanan, hoja zinaweza kuwa potofu (flawed arguments) lakini haziwi potofu kwa sababu kilichopendekezwa ni tofauti bali zinakuwa potofu kama zimeundwa kwa misingi ambayo haishawishi akili (illogical) na zinapingana na ukweli.

    lilikuwa jukumu la Prof. Shivji kuonesha kwanini hoja zilizotolewa ni potofu (reducing an argument to absurdity) na kuonesha kwanini hoja zake yeye zina nguvu.
     
  13. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Nakusubiri ndugu!
     
  14. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    1. Professor alichofanya ni kubinafsisha "ukweli" badala ya yeye kutoa hoja na kuacha wasomaji waamue kwamba anachokisema ni kweli au la!
    2. Baada ya kubinafsisha hajafafanua chochote juu ya huo aliouita "upotofu!"
    3. Ameenda mbali zaidi kwa kutaja jina la Sheria itakayotungwa ili kumwongezea Rais Karume muda wa kukaa madarakani: The Constitution (National Unity Government) (Transitional and Temporary Provisions) Act, 2010.
    4. Mimi naona haya si mapendekezo sasa, ni maelekezo kutoka kwa Prof. Issa G. Shivji kwenda kwa Karume!
     
  15. MrFroasty

    MrFroasty JF-Expert Member

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    Tunasubiri kwa hamu hayo majibu...

    P:S
    **Naomba maelezo zaidi kwenye hiyo bolded && red text...thanks
     
  16. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Sure!
     
  17. Rufiji

    Rufiji JF-Expert Member

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    Prof Shivji kama alivyo Mtanzania mwingine yeyote ana haki ya kikatiba ya kutoa maoni yake , lakini hili alimaanishi ya kuwa kila atakachosema ni lazima tukubaliane naye au kitakuwa ndio solution. Kwanza kabisa, Profesa ametumia lugha potofu na ya kuwabeza wale walioko katika upande wa pili wa hii shilingi, kitu ambacho sio kizuri kwa afya ya huu mjadala. Nadhani badala ya kuwabeza anaopingana nao, Profesa angefanunua kitendo cha kumruhusu Karume kuongeza muda tutakuwa tunaset precedent gani?​

    Kitu ninachokiona hapa ni kuwa Prof. anaamini ya kuwa tatizo la Zanzibar linaweza kutatuliwa tuu kwa Karume kuongeza muda, hii ni plainly False Alternative fallacy! Unamkumbuka Rais Bush, you are either with us or you are with them ! Je vipi kama tukianzisha tume ambayo itajiusisha na huu muafaka ikaongozwa na Karume na Seif.​

    Mimi ninachokipinga hapa ni kubadilisha katiba ili kumuwezesha mtu fulani kuendelea kukaa madarakani ? why they didn't come up with this idea four or two years ago ? Na jee vipi kama siku moja tutampata Kiongozi mwenye uroho wa madaraka na ambaye atataka kutawala maisha , tutamkataza vipi kutokugombea ? With all due respect, Professor Shivji has failed to envision the long term consequences of this vibrant debate.​
     
  18. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Na hapa ikitokea kwamba Karume akatwaliwa na Mungu (hatuombei iwe hivyo, lakini ni lazima kila nafsi itaonja mauti) maana yake atazikwa na mwafaka wake na Seif? Kwa nini Karume amekuwa "mtoto mzuri" katika dk ya 89 ya mchezo wa mpira wa miguu na watazamaji wanamwombea aendelee kucheza yeye mwenyewe peke yake uwanjani baada ya dk ya 90 wakati wachezaji wengine wakionekana hawafai? Na kwa nini kila anayetoa hoja hoja ya kumwongezea mchezaji huyu dk za nyongeza peke yake mtoa hoja anaoneka kuwa ni "kijitu kutoka Bara?" Why, why, why,...why?
     
  19. I

    Interested Observer JF-Expert Member

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    Tatizo la Zanzibar inawezekana ni kweli kutokuaminiana, lakini vile vile lazima uelewe kuwa katika democrasia lazima baadhi ya mambo tusiaminiane. WaZanzibar wanachokosa ni kuvumiliana, na hii kutokuvumliana kumetokana na ubabe wa CCM kuiba kura siyo Historia. Tangu mwaka 1995 kama CCM wangeheshimu Demokrasia na kutokuiba ushindi leo hatungesema historia. We are not telling the root cause of the issue.
    Tofauti ya Tanzania Bara na Zanzibar ni kuwa, Bara ni waoga kudai haki zao wakati Zanzibar hawaogopi kusema. There is no another history which can justify Karume na Seif move.
     
  20. bona

    bona JF-Expert Member

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    hua nakua annoyed sana na watu wanaotaka kuonyesha kua wabara wanauitaji sana muungano kiasi cha kwamba wako tayari kuivuruga ili wazanzibar wahitilafiane, kama wazanzibari wote wameamua luzika tofauti zao well and good tunawatakia kila la kheri lakini siku za ivi karibuni mijadala imebadilika kua ya kwamba kuna watu( wabara ) wanataka ayo makubaliane yavurugwe, sidhani kama kuna ukweli wowote au ni kutaka kuongeza hamasa tu sizikua na msingi?
    labda wanaoleta mjadala uo watueleze kinagaubaga hao wabara wanatyuhumiwa kuvuruga mapatano hayo nia yao nini au watagain nini kama hayo makubaliano ya seif na karume yakivurugika? mijadala ii imekua ikiendelea lakini hakuna wa kujitokeza kusema wanaotaka kuvuruga hayo mapatano lengo kuu(end product) kwao ni nini?
     
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