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Erring on the Side of Caution: Kikwete usiwaapishe mawaziri wasioapishwa kuwa wabunge kwanza!

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Mzee Mwanakijiji, May 6, 2012.

  1. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

    #1
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    We don't want to create a very dangerous precedence in the future:

    Ngoja niwaambie kitu- hekima inataka 'to err on the side of caution'. Hii ina maana ya kwamba kwa vile kuna utata basi la kwanza lazima lifanyike kwanza - waapishwe kuwa wabunge kwanza kabla ya kuwa mawaziri. Binafsi naweza kukubali kuwa Rais anaweza kuwateua watu kuwa mawaziri baada ya kuwateua kuwa wabunge; lakini hawezi kuwaapisha kuwa mawaziri kabla ya kuwaapisha kuwa wabunge!

    Tatizo ninaloliona ni kuwa watu wanachukulia kiapo cha ubunge ni 'optional' kwamba hakihusiani kabisa na mambo yote ambayo hyo mbunge anaqualify kuyafanya kama mbunge ikiwemo kuteuliwa kuwa waziri. Kwa vile basi waziri ni lazima atoke miongoni mwa wabunge basi inakuwa presumed kuwa ni wabunge waliokwisha kuapa kabisa siyo wa wateule. Tujiulize hivi kwanini baada ya Rais kuchaguliwa na kabla ya Bunge kuitwa - ikumbukwe Rais anaapishwa kabla ya wabunge kwanini Rais hatangazi mawaziri na waziri mkuu kwanza anasubiri hadi waape wakati tayari wapo wateule?

    Hivyo, hoja kuwa mtu anaweza kuwa waziri wakati akiwa mbunge mteule haina mashiko na I can boldly say unconstitutional. Haijawahi kutokea hata mara moja - niko tayari kusahihishwa - kwa rais wa nchi yetu kuteua mawaziri kutoka wabunge wateule na kuwaapisha kuwa mawaziri kabla hawajaapishwa kuwa wabunge. Mara zote Rais ametangaza mawaziri baada ya wabunge kuapishwa na siyo kabla hawajaapishwa hata kama wapo wateule? Kwanini? Well, kwa sababu iko presumed ili mtu awe waziri ni lazima aapishwe kuwa mbunge kwanza.

    Sasa tukikubali - kwa sababu ya ubishi - kwamba mbunge anaweza kuapishwa kabla hajaapishwa mbunge huko mbeleni mara tu baada ya uchaguzi na kabla ya kikao cha bunge watu wataanza kupeana vyeo au kujitahidi wapate vyeo na wakimkuta Rais dhaifu basi watu wanaweza kutangazwa mawaziri kabla ya waziri mkuu! Tunaposema tunajenga utawala wa kikatiba ni LAZIMA tuonekane tunaheshimu katiba hiyo na mazoea ambayo yamekuwepo.

    Labda niulize tu - kama kuna mtu anajua wakati wowot eambap mbunge ametangazwa kuwa Waziri kabla ya kuapishwa labda kuna precedence ambayo tayari Kikwete anaifuata.

    Kama hakuna ushauri wangu ni kuwa Rais awaapishe wale ambao tayari ni wabunge lakini wale waliowapya wasubiri hadi Bunge liitishwe au (si lazima Dodoma hata Karimjee linaweza kukutana kama Spika ataamua hivyo) ili kuwaapisha hawa wabunge. WE HAVE TO RESPECT THE CONSTITUTION. Pamoja na ubovu wake wote; it is the only one we have.
     
  2. MtamaMchungu

    MtamaMchungu JF-Expert Member

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    I too was very suprised with this move, nilipouliza watu wakaniambia "Hao wateule wa rais".

    But it is unconstitutional kabisa, na kama unavyosema mfano mbaya. Lakini haitakuwa mara ya kwanza, recall EPA saga when neither the constitution nor the laws were respected. It's business as usual, total impunity.
     
  3. Pipiro

    Pipiro JF-Expert Member

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    Well said.. Ikifanywa otherwise inaamaanisha Raisi atakuwa ameidharau katiba huku akijua hakuna lolote mtakalomfanya na hiyo itasababisha na kujidhihirisha kuwa mkuu wa nchi hayupo serious na suala zima la katiba mpya. Kuna masuala mengine hayatakiwi masikhara hata kwa bahati mbaya. Tusibiri tuone.
     
  4. MNYISANZU

    MNYISANZU JF-Expert Member

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    Tuviweke hapa kwanza vifungu vya sheria and then tujadili.
     
  5. Mzee Mwanakijiji

    Mzee Mwanakijiji Platinum Member

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    Unless kama kuna mfano huko nyuma ambapo Rais aliteua na kuapisha mawaziri kabla hawajaapishwa kuwa wabunge tunaweza kusema anafuata precedence au kama aliwahi kuteua wabunge wakati ambapo kikao cha Bunge kilikuwa mbali kama kilivyo sasa na kuwafanya wachelewe kuapishwa Ubunge...
     
  6. s

    sakwera samora New Member

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    Sheria ina vyanzo vingi, kama vile consititution, statutes, conventions, ''precedents'' n.k. Hoja ni kwamba precedent hiyo ambayo imekuwapo toka uhuru wa nchi hii ufutwe na iki-bidi tu-u adopt ktk katiba ijayo! Ni hatari sana kwa uongozi wa nchi kama kila utawala utafanya unavyoona inafaa. If that be the case the foreseable damages will just be inexplicable.
     
  7. Job K

    Job K JF-Expert Member

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    Kwa Rais wenu mwenye kichwa cha Koroma yote yanawezekana. Hivi kwa nini huwa hapendi kujielimisha huyu panzi? Ingemgharimu nini kama angesoma katiba kwenye ibara zinazohusu Bunge na baraza la mawaziri kama hakuwa na uhakika? Huyu jamaa sijui ni kazi gani ilikuwa inamfaa! Urais hapana bwana uwezo wake mdogo sana! Waliosoma naye hebu watusaidie darasani alikuwaje huyu?!
     
  8. Kimbunga

    Kimbunga Platinum Member

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    Mkuu MNYISANZU hii hoja imejadiliwa sana kwenye uzi mmoja ulioanzishwa na EMT kwa kuwa ninatumia kimeo siwezi ku paste hapa. Kuna vifungu vingi vimeshushwa kule. Alichokifanya Mzee Mwanakijiji ni conclusion tu ya hiyo thread.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2016
  9. Mzalendo Mkuu

    Mzalendo Mkuu JF-Expert Member

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    Miongoni mwa wabunge. Mbunge ni mtu yeyote alichaguliwa kuwa mbunge au aliyeteuliwa na Rais kuwa mbunge. Lakini mbunge hawi mbunge mpaka AAPISHWE KAMA ILIVYO KWA WAZIRI NAYE MPAKA AAPISHWE.
     
  10. Kimbunga

    Kimbunga Platinum Member

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  11. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Sijaona utata uko wapi bado. Mbunge mteule ni nani na mbunge ni nani?

    Hakuna kitu kama "mbunge mteule" kwa sababu, kwa wabunge wa kuchaguliwa, kabla ya kutangazwa kuwa mshindi na Tume ya uchaguzi, mtu anakuwa mgombea ubunge tu, akitangazwa kuwa mshindi hapo hapo anakuwa certified kuwa mbunge. Sasa hii concept ya "mbunge mteule" inatoka wapi? Au inajengeka kwa dhana ya kwamba mbunge akitangazwa na kuwa certified anakuwa si mbunge kamili, bali ni "mbunge mteule" mpaka aapishwe? Mbona katiba haisemai "wabunge wateule watamchagua Spika", inasema "wabunge" ?

    Ditto kwa wabunge wanaoteuliwa na rais, rais akiwateua kashawa certify kuwa wabunge. Kiapo cha utiifu na uaminifu, kinahusika na utiifu na uaminifu na uwezo wa mbunge kufanya shughuli za kibunge zaidi ya kumchagua Spika.

    Tumejadili hili sana katika post aliyoilink Mkuu Kimbunga hapo juu. Naona watu wanataka ku split atoms kama CERN tu sehemu ambayo hakuna argument. Ukiendekeza sana ku err on the side of caution utashindwa kwenda kazini.

    Rais akiteua mtu kuwa mbunge, anam-certify huyo mtu kuwa mbunge. Kiapo cha ubunge hakihusiki kumfanya mtu kuwa mbunge, hili tumeshalijadili kirefu.Kiapo cha utiifu/uaminifu kwa Jamhuri kinahusika kwa mbunge kuweza kufanya shughuli za ubunge zaidi ya kumchagua Spika. Kiapo cha ubunge hakimfanyi mtu kuwa mbunge. Tushajadili sana hili na tumeona, kwa mfano wabunge wa kuchaguliwa wanakuwa certified kuwa wabunge wanapotangazwa washindi na Tume ya Uchaguzi, kwa hiyo wanakuwa wabunge kabla ya kiapo. Ndiyo maana ibara ya 68 imesema wabunge watamchagua Spika, haikusema "wabunge wateule". Na kama wabunge watamchagua Spika, halafu Spika atawaapisha wabunge, basi wabunge hawa wamekuwa wabunge kabla ya kuapishwa. Hapa ndipo ninaposema kiapo hakimfanyi mtu kuwa mbunge.

    Kwa minajili hii basi, hata hao wabunge wa kuteuliwa na rais hawahitaji kiapo ili kuwa wabunge. Rais anapowateua anawa certify kuwa wabunge. Kwa hivyo basi, sasa hivi wanaweza kuapishwa kuwa mawaziri bila ya utata wowote. Wasichoweza kufanya ni shughuli za kibunge (kama wabunge) kwa sababu katiba inawataka wale kiapo kwanza.

    Sioni utata.
     
  12. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Mtu anakuwa mbunge kabla ya kuapishwa, soma ibara ya 68.

    Anayetakiwa kuapishwa ni nani? Mbunge. Si Mbunge Mteule.
    Anayeweza kushiriki katika uchaguzi wa Spika kabla hata hajaapishwa ni nani? Mbunge. Si Mbunge Mteule.

    Kwa hiyo huyu mtu kabla ya kuapishwa ni mbunge tayari.
     
  13. zomba

    zomba JF-Expert Member

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    Kuapishwa Mbunge sio lazima bunge likae Dodoma, Mbunge anaweza apishwa hata Dar, na si lazima kuwe na kikao cha bunge. Anakuja speaker anamwapisha, hata bila speaker anaweza apishwa na Rais au mwanasheria yeyote yule, mradi kuwe na mashahidi. Si wabunge wote wa Tanzania walioapishwa wakati bunge linaendelea Dodoma.

    Msitake kuleta kanuni zenu ambazo hazipo.
     
  14. Kiranga

    Kiranga JF-Expert Member

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    Hili si suala linalojadiliwa hapa.

    Kinachojadiliwa hapa ni watu kuapishwa uwaziri kabla hawajaapishwa ubunge.
     
  15. Lonestriker

    Lonestriker JF-Expert Member

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    Are you trying to say that 'certification' or the swearing in of members of parliament is a mere formality,an insignificant event that can be easily overlooked?That the swearing in of MPs serves no purpose except in the election of the Speaker of the house of assembly?Then,why do MPs elected after a by-election when there is no need to elect a speaker also go through the 'mere formality' of being sworn in?
    If the law is not clear then it is better to follow a routine that stirs away from controversy.
     
  16. KakaJambazi

    KakaJambazi JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu Mkjj unauliza kama kuna mfano huko nyuma ili kuhalalisha tukio sio? Kwann hili la sasa lisiwe la mwanzo ili wengine waje wawe wana-refer japo ni kosa? Yaan mnataka kujua ka Nyerere alivunja katiba ndo muone kuna uhalali sio?Yesu aliuliza lipi bora, kuponya siku ya sabato au kuua, na akatoa mfano wa ng'ombe akitumbukia kisimani siku ya sabato. Lets assume tupo kwenye state ya emegence na pia iwe sehemu ya historia sio kila kitu Nyerere.
     
  17. YanguHaki

    YanguHaki Senior Member

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    Hii nayo kali! Ni mawazo yako tu au kuna sehemu umedesa?
     
  18. P

    Pascal Mayalla JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu Kiranga,

    Sheria zetu nyingi tume ziadapt hata bila kujua zinamaanisha nini.

    Kiapo is oarth to the office. Rais akishachaguliwa anakuwa president elect mpaka akisha kula kiapo. Presidential institution inamuingia kwa kiapo tuu. Vivyo hivyo kwa wabunge, ubunge sio baada ya kuchaguliwa bali baada ya kiapo.

    Swali la msingi ni ubunge unaanzia wapi?, ni baada tuu ya kuchaguliwa au kuapishwa?. Kama ni baada ya kuchaguliwa, basi kuapishwa hakuna maana yoyote!.

    Nimebahatika kuhudhuria mabunge 4 yakiapishwa pale Dodoma, wabunge nao huitwa wabunge wateule!.

    kule kwa EMT nilijibu hivi, na hapa ninajibu vile vile.

     
  19. MtamaMchungu

    MtamaMchungu JF-Expert Member

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    Mkuu Kiranga, you have raised an interesting point, you seem to imply that "taking an oath" is insignificant, out of topic within the same domain, can we say that "Someone becomes a president as soon as the electoral committee announces the winner, one need not be sworn in"
     
  20. YanguHaki

    YanguHaki Senior Member

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    Ndugu yangu hatufanyi reference ya makosa yaliyopita kuhalalisha matendo ya sasa!
    [Q UOTE=KakaJambazi;3856360]Mkuu Mkjj unauliza kama kuna mfano huko nyuma ili kuhalalisha tukio sio? Kwann hili la sasa lisiwe la mwanzo ili wengine waje wawe wana-refer japo ni kosa? Yaan mnataka kujua ka Nyerere alivunja katiba ndo muone kuna uhalali sio?Yesu aliuliza lipi bora, kuponya siku ya sabato au kuua, na akatoa mfano wa ng'ombe akitumbukia kisimani siku ya sabato. Lets assume tupo kwenye state ya emegence na pia iwe sehemu ya historia sio kila kitu Nyerere.[/QUOTE]
     
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