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Dr. Mushemba "YOU ARE WRONG!"

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Sam, Nov 12, 2007.

  1. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Askofu mstaafu Dkt. Mushemba

    Akizungumza kwenye hafla hiyo, Askofu Mkuu Mstaafu wa KKKT Dkt. Samson Mushemba alimpongeza Rais Kikwete kwa kufafanua chanzo cha mjadala huo na kusema ni salamu nzuri hasa katika maneno ya Rais kwamba ataruhusu uamuzi wenye maslahi ya Taifa.

    Alimshauri Rais Kikwete asilegeze uzi kwenye vita dhidi ya rushwa na kushauri ifanyike bidii ya kupata mbinu mpya na rasmi ya kupambana na wala rushwa wakiwamo wadogo na vigogo.

    Alishauri mbinu hizo zitakapo patikana adhabu kwa vigogo wala rushwa na watoa rushwa ziongezwe makali na kuwa mara kumi zaidi ya zile zilizopo sasa.
     
  2. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Nadhana kama kiongozi wa dini unatakiwa uwashauri viongozi wa siasa mambo ambayo Yesu alifundisha.
    Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged."
     
  3. Mtanganyika

    Mtanganyika JF-Expert Member

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    I think kiongozi wa dini ni sehemu ya jamii, i believe he have a rights to share his opinions with president or any othet politician.
     
  4. k

    kaka2002 Member

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    Wakuu, Heshima zenu!

    Mi nadhani Dr.Mshemba hakukosea; Imeandikwa YA MUNGU MPENI MUNGU NA YA KAISARI MPENI KAISARI.Rushwa na Uisadi ni Kosa hata kwa sheria za nchi, lazima lishughulikiwe kwa sheria za nchi. usipowahukumu mafisadi si watakuwa huru mno hadi kuturudisha utumwani?
     
  5. Kitila Mkumbo

    Kitila Mkumbo Verified User

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    Actually, he is more than right!
     
  6. M

    Mtanzania JF-Expert Member

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    Sam,
    Mimi nakubaliana kabisa na askofu msataafu, tena kaongea kistaarabu, maana angekuwa mtu mwingine hata angetukana. Lazima ujue kwenye huo mkutano alikuwepo pia fisadi namba moja, rais Mkapa.

    Hawa mafisadi zamani walikuwa wanakimbilia kanisani ambako wanasifiwa lakini sasa inabidi hata kanisani kuwe na miiba.
     
  7. p

    princejafari Member

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    DR MUSHEMBA YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Jamani it is a no brainer to understand that Mushemba is right in his condemnation of ufisadi na rushwa.
    Humu ndani ya JF tumeshaongelea kwa kina ni kwa nini viongozi wa dini hawatakiwi kukaa kimya. Wanatakiwa kuwa pamoja na wananchi na ikibidi wao wenyewe waongoze mapambano dhidi ya ufisadi. This is what happened in france (remember joan of arc?), poland, south africa, kenya, congo, iran and a dozen countries in south america.

    Yesu hakuwataka viongozi wa dini wawe mabwege, wabweteke na kula sahani moja na mafisadi na wala rushwa! remember jesus came as a 'liberator' na ndio maana alipokelewa kama 'messiah' na wananchi wa palestine ambao walitegemea atawakomboa kutoka kwenye utawala wa kikoloni wa warumi...of course it is the single most factor that caused his arrest and execution before a mob justice....yes it was mob justice!!

    the political message was clear.(of course watu wanapokuwa kanisani this particular angle is rarely discussed...people want to hear bread and butter issues which are simple to comprehend)

    sasa siyo kuanza kuwa na 'narrow interpretation' of the new testatement. 'mwili wenye afya unatunza roho yenye afya (prof cuthbert omari rip)..hamuwezi tu mkamuachia kaisari (caesar) afanye atakavyo wakati nchi inakwenda pabaya. at the end wewe kama mchungaji, padre ama shehe unataka uwe na waumini ambao wako economically sound, watoto wao wanaenda shule, wana afya njema and they are realising their life's potential.

    Yesu aliposema kuwajali maskini hakuwa ana maanisha kugawa unga na maharage bali kupambana na matatizo ya msingi/kimfumo ambayo yanasababisha umasikini na hali duni ya maisha. and believe me you can not do that bila kupambana na political system/bad governance systems. That is the mission of the church today!.
     
  8. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Nilijua watu mtanipinga ndiyo maana sikutoa mawazo yangu juu ya hili jambo. Mnaposema he is right, mnaangalia kwa mtazamo gani? Angekuwa ni mtumishi wa Kaisari tungesema yuko sawa lakini yeye ni kiongozi wa roho za watu wanaoamini mafundisho ya Yesu.
    Mnajua matendo ya wakristo ndiyo yanayofanya watu waone wakristo wanazuga tu. Kwa mfano hilo hilo kanisa ambao Mushemba alikuwa analiongoza la kilutheri wana kitu eti kumtenga mtu usharika, unazuiwa kushiriki mambo ya kanisa mpaka ukaungame kwa binadamu mwenzako. That's bullshit! You can not judge another human being only GOD can do that. Kwa mfano mtu wa dini nyingine akaingia kanisani akamuona mtu na joho jeupe anasema .."Kwa mamlaka niliyopewa na mungu......blah..blah.. nawasameheni dhambi zetu." Sijui reaction ya mtu huyo itakuwaje.
    Unajua bible, christianity, na church ni mambo ambayo watu wengi hawajui kipi cha kufuata ni kipi cha kuacha. Jesu aliwaachia wanafunzi wake kanisa walieneze. Na hilo kanisa ni HOLY SPIRITY ambayo ndiyo muongozo wa wakristo wote. Kitu unachotakiwa kufanya ni kumuomba mungu akushushie roho mtakatifu akuongoze kwenye maisha yako hakuna zaidi ya hapo kwenye ukristo. Hakuna mambo ya torati, laws au rules ambazo zinamuongoza mtu kiroho.
    Dr. Mushemba kama kiongozi wa kidini alitakiwa amuombe mungu awashushie roho mtakatifu viongozi wetu wa kisiasa ili iwa guide kufanya mambo mema na siyo kumwambia Kaisari what do to. Kama sara zako hazifanyi kazi, why being christian?

    Najua unaweza kupingana na mimi kwenye msimamo wa kiroho lakini kwa mtizamo wangu Dr. Mushemba haelewi ukristo ni nini.
     
  9. Kitila Mkumbo

    Kitila Mkumbo Verified User

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    Sasa wewe ndugu yangu unaonekana huujui ulutheri; ni hivi walutheri hawaungami kwa kiongozi wa kanisani, nafikiri unachanganya madhehebu hapa. hakuna kitu kama hicho kwenye ulutheri.

    Hilo nalo la kusema Mushemba hajui ukiristo ni nini limeniacha hoi kabisa. Inaonekana umempokea bwana hivi karibuni, umezaliwa upya na unahitaji mafundisho sana ili ukue kiroho! Tafuta kanisa la kiroho lililokaribu nawe uanze mafundisho ya Bwana. Ubarikiwe.
     
  10. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Mzee naona imekuumiza baada ya kuambiwa kiongozi wako wa kiroho hajui ukristo maana yake nini. Sina haja ya kutafuta Kanisa kanisa langu ni roho mtakatifu. Hebu niambie ukitengwa usharika unatakiwa ufanye nini ili wakurudishe kundini?
     
  11. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Okay, sasa nieleze ni kwa nini wanamtenga mtu asishiriki mambo ya MUngu. That's bullshit right!
     
  12. p

    princejafari Member

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    sam!
    Stop waxing rhetorical! last time roho mtakatifu aliposhuka it was about 2000 years ago. Thats how rare the experience is! Kasome kitabu kilichoandikwa na the then Cardinal Ratzinger - presnt day Benedict XVI (An introduction to Christianity)..the utaelewa what does it mean 'Mwili wenye afya unatunza roho yenye afya'. The two go together!
    Kanisa limepitia misuko suko mingi katika historia yake hasa pale lilipoungana na makabaila (the church was the biggest feudal lord in the world!) katika mfumo ambao uliwakandamiza wengi. also remember that kwa karne kadhaa there has never been a real separation between the church na watawala. Before the wars that unified Italy, the pope used to also be the king the vestiges of which we see today at the vatican (cf lateran treaty) ambapo papa ni mkuu wa nchi na wakati huo huo ni kiongozi wa kiroho. a similar arrangement prevails in the UK where the Queen is head of state and also the head of the anglican church...the archbishop of canterbury taking more spiritual duties.

    kanisa siyo kisiwa. the well being of the church also depends on the well being of the society which it serves. spiritual well being can never be achieved in a vaccum. the church of today is seen as a temple of justice, with perperual and residual moral authority to guide the society which it serves. and that includes politics and governance.

    hundreds of books have been written about liberation theology which emphasises the mission of christianity is to bring justice to the poor and the oppressed through political activism (siyo kwa sala na kupiga magoti). Read books like Paul Gauthier's The poor Jesus and the Church'
    poland wangekalia kusali na kumsubiri roho mtakatifu, hadi leo hii bado wangekuwa chini ya makucha ya ukomunist. read how the late pope John II formerly the arcbishop of Krakow actively supported the Solidarity Movement in Poland and used all means at the disposal of the catholic church to fight dictatorship in poland.

    Ukienda poland leo hii, kuna kitu kimoja ambacho they are all unanimous: mchango mkubwa wa kanisa katoliki katika ukombozi wa nchi yao!

    In my days as a student of jurisprudence, this was one of my favourite kwa hiyo karibu!!!!
     
  13. Saharavoice

    Saharavoice JF-Expert Member

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    Princejafari.

    Ongeza na mifano mingine ya watu kama Mch. Martin Luther King (USA), Desmond Tutu (South Africa). Liberation ktk nchi nyingi chachu zake zimeanzia Makanisani au misikitini kutegemaeana na Nchi na nchi.

    Dr. Jmm Harris katika kitabu chake
    " anasema I quote " To conclude: the church's role in politics is to be there visibly in the context of political policy formulation. The church has to be prophetic, speaking for God. The church has to herald the ethical values that enrich a nation. The church has to be bold and forthright, constructive and innovative. The church has to be "salt and light" in what is so often a corrupt environment, to bring light and health."
     
  14. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Wale wale eti "kanisa katoliki"... mimi nimekuleza ninavyoamini kanisa ni nini? Kwa mtazamo wangu Katoliki siyo kanisa ni "empire". Ume refer vitabu vya watu na mawazo ya watu what do you believe? Au unawaamini hao binadamu wengine kwenye mambo ya kiroho? Kama huamini kwamba hakuna holy spirit, you are not christian. Hakuna mjadala hapo. Kwa hiyo unataka mimi nimuamini Cardinal Ratzinger? Who is he? Another human being! These Cardinals do nasty "things" na unataka mimi niwaamini kwa kuwa mbele ya jina lake kuna neno cardinal? Kanisa halijawahi kupitia misukosuko yoyote ila madhehebu na empires za kibinadamu ndizo zimepitia misukosuko. Kanisa Katoliki.. give me a break!
     
  15. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Hawa watu Mch. Martin Luther King (USA) na Desmond Tutu (South Africa) ni miungu au binadamu? Wanatofauti gani na Nyerere? Nikisema catholic "empire" ilisaidia kutuletea uhuru Tanganyika nitakuwa nimekosea au? The christinity faith is the relationship between GOD and individuals. Na Jesus Christ ndiye anaye link hawa individuals na mungu.
     
  16. Saharavoice

    Saharavoice JF-Expert Member

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    Sam.
    Pengine sijakuelewa au nisema hujaeleweka. Viongozi wa dini wanapozungumza juu ya Rushwa na ufisadi ni kosa? au kwamba hawaongozwi na Roho Mtakatifu kulizungumza hilo? Maana anachokisema Mushemba na Malasusa ni kwamba Serikali (si Kanisa) liwachukulie hatua Kali wale wote wanaojihusisha na Ufisadi kwa sheria za nchi (si kanisa)

    Nieleweshe pointi yako iko wapi ndipo tuendelee
     
  17. p

    princejafari Member

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    sam naona wewe bado mwanangezi katika theologia thats why unachanganya mambo. kumbuka katika mfano wangu wa awali i mentionioned IRAN. mapinduzi ya iran yaliongozwa na Ayatollah Khomeini kupinga udhalimu na ufisadi uliokuwa unafaywa na shah. Khomeini hakuwa mkristo but had a theological conviction to be a force for good change! Todate Iran is still a 'Theocracy'.Soma nini kilitokea Iran 1953 kujua chimbuko la mapinduzi ya 1979.

    Pili nataka uelewe kwamba Pfofessor Ratzinger is consideredd to be one of the foremost theologians in the world. At the doctoral level, his students included many from the protestant churches and even outside christianity! Ratz is actually on record to have opposed some elements of liberation theology during Vatican II (a.k.a. Mtaguso wa pili wa vatican) because they endorsed armed struggle.

    Wewe naona you are used to shooting from the hip, na una hulka ya upayukaji. you make 'wild allegations'. mifano yote niliyokupa haina mgogoro because it has happened already and recorded as fact!. naweza nikawa nimetumia mifano mingi ya kanisa katoliki because it can safely be said that 'the copyright to liberation theology belongs to the catholic church'. a casual glance at the history of latin american history from 1960-2000 will clearly show the pivotal role that religion played to bring down dictatorships all the way from argentina to mexico. Now here is something different:

    Walikuwa ni viongozi wa dini nchini afhghanistan waliohamasisha wananchi (Mujahedeen)kupambana na Warusi (soviet union then) na vibaraka wao nchini afghanistan. Of couse baada ya soviet union kusambaratika na kuondoa majeshi yake afghanistan, Mujahedeen waliachwa solemba...matokeo yake tunayaona leo ikiwemo al qaeda! Ukombozi wa Pakistani ya sasa, na Bangladeshi ya sasa (ambayo enzi hizo ikiitwa East Pakistan), usingewezekana bila ya viongozi wa kiislamu kusimama kidete kudai haki zao. Today, the 'Muslim Brotherhood' in various countries may be radical but the bottomline is that they stand for justice of the oppressed.

    issue inayozungumziwa hapa ni 'the role of religion in politics/governance of a country' and definately not personal beliefs. nimekupa mifano ya nchi ambazo kanisa lilisimama kidete kutetea haki za wanyonge. nikakutajia na Iran pia where the islamic revolution was not about religion at all but social justice.

    Hapa jirani yetu uganda tunamkumbuka Askofu Mkuu Janani Luwum ambaye alithubutu kupinga waziwazi utawala wa Idi Amin akiwa ndani ya nchi. He was bruttally murdered. People like bishop Festo Kivengere (He later wrote a book 'I Love Idi Amin', while in exile..huyu mzee ilibidi akimbie nchi kwa kukatiza mapori, otherwise yaliyomkuta Luwum yangemkuta na yeye pia!

    Hapo Kenya alikuwepo Bishop Alexander Muge. The guy was authentic! alikemea rushwa na ufisadi ndani ya serikali ya Nyayo...matokeo yake yakampata masahibu kama yale yaliyomkumba mzee Robert Ouko. There is a book written by Nicholas Otieno "Beyond the Silence of Death: Life and Theology of the Late Bishop Alexander Kipsang Muge". Huyu hakuwa mkatoliki....

    Afrika ya kusini ( Bishop Tutu, Trevor Huddleston, Rev Alan Boesak, Rev Frank Chikane )hawa ni viongozi wa kidini ambao walisimama kidete kupambana na udhalimu uliokuwa unafanywa na serikali ya makaburu. Up to this day Bishop Tutu ( Small frame, Small voice, Great Mind!) ni mwiba mkali hata kwa serikali ya sasa ya ANC pale inapopotoka. These are not catholics! And of course I need ten pages to decribe the political activities of Rev Dr Ian Paisley of Norther Ireland.

    My point here ni kwamba kuna mifano lukuki namna ambavyo dini imesaidia kutetea haki za wanyonge ( the reverse is also true in many instances but that is not the subject matter of this thread). My personal beliefs so far they are irrelevant because here we are discussing religion as an institution something which may not change with my personal beliefs.

    As for reading books..well we need to read books my friend hata kama vitabu vimeandikwa na binadamu kama sisi! Reading is to the brain what exercise is to the body. start ordering now, www.amazon.com
     
  18. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Kwanza naomba mwambie mama yako hajakomaa kiakili siyo mimi. Ng'ombe we.

    Hii topic nimeianzisha mimi sasa huo upumbavu wako wa 'the role of religion in politics/governance of a country' umetoka wapi anzisha topic nyingine. Et kasome vitabu. Why not writting books. Mweu we. Kwa nini uishi kwa mawazo ya watu wengine? Uislamu na ukristo ni vitu viwili tofauti. Mtu anaye**** watoto wadogo na kufanya mapenzi na masista hawezi kuwa mshauri wangu wa mambo ya kiroho. Eti nisome vitabu, na wewe nenda kasome vitabu ni kivipi mama yako alipata mimba kwa ku***** akamzaa mtoto idiot kama wewe.

    Ila kanisa unalozungumzia hapa ni kanisa gani? Hau hizo "empire" wewe na mama yako mnazoziita makanisa?
     
  19. Rev. Kishoka

    Rev. Kishoka JF-Expert Member

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    I will agree with Sam on one thing. The church is corrupt, especially the ELCT/KKKT!

    I wonder if Bishop Moshi, Kisanji or Kolowa will get at least 15 days back in this earth, what will they say to the Church they left in harmony and now is being used as political wing.

    1. Corruption: Just imagine this, that the Chaplain of Azania Front, bought a new Prado (that was used by Lowassa during compaign 2005) for just about Tsh. 5,000,000.00. As a result, he the chaplain and the new KKKT head bishop Mwalasusa, appointed Freddy Lowassa, son of Lowassa who is mastermind behind Richimonduli to be Mzee wa kanisa.

    Jiulizeni na huu uchafu wote, when will they (Maaskofu wa KKKT) stand to karipia hujuma na Ufisadi? Bear in mind that vurugu za Arumeru in 90s zilizosababisha kwa Dayosisi ya Kaskazini na Arusha kuzaa Dayosisi (au Sinodi) ya Meru, muasisi wa uasi na vurugu za kuchoma watu moto na mashamba alikuwa ni Lowassa akisaidiana na Mzee Jackson Kaaya!

    How in hell, leo Lowassa anapewa Red Carpet na Kanisa?

    2. Internal conflicts. Tunajua wazi kuna kambi nyingi, suala la Mwenegoha halikuwa rahisi. Angalia wote waliokuwa wakimpiga vita Mwenegoha: Mwamasika, Sendoro, Mngwamba, Mdegela na wenginewe, ni Maaskofu majina lakini ni wasanii ambao kila mmoja ana tuhuma za Ufuska,Uzinzi, Wizi, Uuzaji Madawa au Uchafu fulani unaonuka! Mshemba alishindwa kuwakaripia wenzake na kuleta maongozi mazuri, mwishowe Kanisa kuendelea kugawanyika!

    3. Wizi: Kanisa Kuu Azania Front, lina pesa si kawaida. Mapato yake ya 2005, yalikuwa ni sawa na mapato ya 95% ya KKKT Nzima. ! Lowassa na marafiki zake, ndio wamekuwa vinara wa kushinikiza kontract za kijinga na za wizi wa mchana pale Azania. Sadaka zatolewa kwa pesa haramu, siku ya Mavuno, wenye esa haramu hufuja pesa eti kumsaidia bwana kesho yake wanakwenda kudai kontract za nguvu na vi-memo kutoka kwa Lowassa nad company vinatumika kuhalalisha mikataba.

    Ni Lini Lowassa na mawazziri wamekuwa ni watendaji wa Kanisa?

    Yes Mshemba kakosea sana kutoa tuzo, bila kukaripia uozo ambao upo kanisani kwake. Ndio maana kelele za hawa wachungaji kwa Serikali na CCM zinaishia magazetini.

    I wish they were Catholics and ex-communicate someone until they are clean (even though Catholics themselves are not that clean,)
     
  20. S

    Sam JF-Expert Member

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    Saharavoice,
    Tuchukulia adhabu kuwa fisadi ni kunyongwa. Je, unafikiri ni sahii kwa kiongozi wa roho za watu kumwambia kiongozi wa nchi awanyonge watu mara kumi?
     
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