Balozi wa Libya Tanzania akaidi kushusha bendera ya NTC!

[Game Theory]

Mimi naona tatizo hapa si bendera; bali ni je Tanzania imeishaitambua serikali ya waasi? Na je huyu balozi amewasilisha upya credentials zake kwa Rais kuwa ni mwakilishi wa Utawala mpya!? Kama bado Tanzania inamtambua kama mwakilishi wa Gaddafi hapo ndipo utata wa bendera unakuja.Mabadiliko ya bendera ya Libya yalishafanyika hata huko nyuma.Bendera wanayotumia waasi ndiyo iliyokuwa inatumika wakati wa utawala wa kifalme 1951--1969,Gaddafi alipompinduwa Mfalme Idris.1969--1977 bendera ya Libya ilikuwa na rangi nyekundu,nyeupe na nyeusi. 1977 hadi Gaddafi anajificha bendera ilikuwa ni ya kijani.Hivyo Membe kwa kuwa serikali ya Tanzania haijawatambua rasmi waasi ana haki ya kutoukubali uwakilishi wa waasi.

Good observation bro

the issue hapa ni sovereignty ambayo hawa jamaa wanaclaim wanayo ili hali according to International law hawana.

Nchi 41 Africa hawawatambui

 

[kingtuma]

Ukweli ni kwamba viongozi wa tanzania ni wachafu hawawezi kumkemea hata nzi akawatii wananuka ufisadi,dhuluma, uonevu na usaliti

 

[BabuK]

Hakuna Ujanja. Hao ndo waLibya anaowawakilisha. Tufikiri kabla ya kumhukumu na tuheshimu mnaamuzi ya walibya walioamua kuchukua nchi yao toka kwa dhalimu aliyejichanganya na waafrika weusi kwa kuwapa mishiko luykuki

 

[Mag3]

Good observation bro

the issue hapa ni sovereignty ambayo hawa jamaa wanaclaim wanayo ili hali according to International law hawana.

Nchi 41 Africa hawawatambui

Twende taratibu SlidingRoof, kwanza tueleze unaelewa nini kuhusu sovereignty. Pili unataka kutueleza kuwa kwenye nchi unayodai ina sovereignty hakuna wapinzani wanaoipinga mamlaka iliyopo madarakani ? Unataja sovereignty na intenational law lakini yaonekana hujui hata kile unachokiongea. Tanzania kwa ufahamu wako hawana mamlaka yoyote kwenye ubalozi usio wake isipokuwa moja tu, kuwafukuza kutoka nchini, period. Kumbuka wakati ubalozi wa Marekani ulipolipuliwa, hata mkuu wa polisi wa Tanzania alizuiwa kutembelea hapo kwa sababu hapo ubalozini hatambuliki. Nakumbuka wasiojua kama wewe walivyopiga kelele kuwa serikali yetu imedharauliwa na hivyo hivyo hapa huyo Membe kwa umbumbumbu wake kachemsha vibaya sana.

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

Unfortunately what we are dealing with here are rebels.

couple of things , BERNARD MEMBE and those wonks at the foreign ministry probably looked couple of issues beforeand . First, these rebels to claim a sovereign state must able to show actual political supremacy in the Libyan territory & they should and must convincingly maintain their supremacy over all other potential authorities within that territory and population....well, we all know they've failed that.

Second, rebels must demonstrate actual independence of outside authority such as NATO, EU, etc, not the supremacy of one town over others but the independence of one state from its peers and that's why some of us argue a sovereign state is said to be in fact politically and juridically independent of any superior.

Therefore from this perspective these rebels if they claim to be a sovereign state must do more than merely claim to be autonomous and independent. In otherword a truly sovereign state is able to assert its de factoi nternal supremacy and external independence in practice and not symbolisms of flags such as those demonstrated by the rogue ambassador of Libya who to me is acting more like a yob than an international diplomat

Sovereignty.. is not the same as being "sovereign state". Libya is a sovereign state.. not the rebels. Gadaffi was not a sovereign state. Sovereign are the people of Libya. Kwa msingi huo wananchi wameexercise their sovereignty through revolution to remove a tyrannical regime. This was true in the French revolution as well as the American revolution.. na kama ilivyokua kwenye Mapinduzi ya Zanzibar au yale ya Tunisia na Misri au hata yale ya Ukraine. Wananchi wanayo madaraka ya kutawala na wanayakasimisha madaraka hayo kwa watawala wao na wale watawala wanapoyatumia vibaya hayo madaraka wananchi wanaweza kuondoa through democratic process or revolutionary process.

Wananchi wa Libya wakijiunganisha pamoja wameamua kuwaondoa watawala wao na hivyo kuunda chombo kipya kitachowaelekeza kuelekea utaratibu wa demokrasia. Na kwa vile haya ni mapinduzi ndivyo mambo yalivyo. Ukifanya mapinduzi chombo kinachofuatia kutawala hakiwezi kuwa cha demokrasia mara moja kinakuwa ni cha mapinduzi. Ndio maana Zanzibar baada ya mapinduzi na kwa muda mrefu hakukuwa na uchaguzi wakiongozwa na Baraza La Mapinduzi (Revolutionary Council); ndio maana hata Misri hakuna serikali ya kidemokrasia bali ile ya kimapinduzi inayoongozwa na jeshi.

Hoja ya kufuata taratibu za kubadilisha bendera zinazotolewa na Membe na wengine zina nguvu lakini zina assume kuna utaratibu wa kawaida wa kiserikali kubadilishana. Lakini katika mapinduzi hali inakuwaje? Je balozi wa Misri kwa mfano bado anawakilisha Misri Tanzania hata baada ya mapinduzi baridi?

 

[brazakaka]

Hakukuwa na haja ya kuharakisha kupandisha bendera ya waasi. I understand concern ya balozi wa Libya lakini wakati mwingine ni vizuri kusimama imara katika wakati mgumu.

 

[lifeofmshaba]

ila la membe ilinaweza kutuiza kwenye mgogoro mkubwa kuliko wengi tunavyoweza kufikiria, tena ina weza kuwa chachu
ya mapinduzi hapa nchi kama wao serikali basi wanaleta dharau kwa watu walishika dola huko LIBYA kwa sababu tu sio maswahiba wao
basi tufikiri mara mbili hii na madhara waasi wana support kubwa kuliko gaddafi

UKIAMU KULA SAMAKI WAKUBWA KUWA MAKINI NA MIBA,
Membe think again

 

[lifeofmshaba]

Hakukuwa na haja ya kuharakisha kupandisha bendera ya waasi. I understand concern ya balozi wa Libya lakini wakati mwingine ni vizuri kusimama imara katika wakati mgumu.

hiyo ndio bendera inayotumika huko libya na ubalozini hapo ni libya ,
wao walikuwa wapi kuvunza uhusiano wakibalozi?

wanaona aibu kwamba wanaipinga hiyo NTC wakati bendera yao inapepea hapa nchi hakuna jingine

 

[EMT]

Look mkuu, a political entity that has attained the status of sovereign statehood is presumed by its peers to be capable of receiving fundamental international rights & under international law ambayo wewe unaipiga vita, sovereign states may take advantage of various substantial rights, including those of expropriation of diplomatic and sovereign immunity and of jurisdiction over legal matters at home and, increasingly, abroad sasa hawa jamaa zenu aka rebels do not qualify for that kwani bado hawajawa na status ya sovereign.

Hapo kwenye red hebu fafanua. So far hakuna anaye dispute Libya as a state. Sasa unaposema "a political entity that has attained the status of sovereign statehood" what "political entity" are you referring to?

Because they are not a sovereign yet and other reasons have been mentioned by my above post

To you what do you understand by a sovereign?

 

[Game Theory]

Sovereignty.. is not the same as being "sovereign state". Libya is a sovereign state.. not the rebels. Gadaffi was not a sovereign state. Sovereign are the people of Libya. Kwa msingi huo wananchi wameexercise their sovereignty through revolution to remove a tyrannical regime. This was true in the French revolution as well as the American revolution.. na kama ilivyokua kwenye Mapinduzi ya Zanzibar au yale ya Tunisia na Misri au hata yale ya Ukraine. Wananchi wanayo madaraka ya kutawala na wanayakasimisha madaraka hayo kwa watawala wao na wale watawala wanapoyatumia vibaya hayo madaraka wananchi wanaweza kuondoa through democratic process or revolutionary process.

Wananchi wa Libya wakijiunganisha pamoja wameamua kuwaondoa watawala wao na hivyo kuunda chombo kipya kitachowaelekeza kuelekea utaratibu wa demokrasia. Na kwa vile haya ni mapinduzi ndivyo mambo yalivyo. Ukifanya mapinduzi chombo kinachofuatia kutawala hakiwezi kuwa cha demokrasia mara moja kinakuwa ni cha mapinduzi. Ndio maana Zanzibar baada ya mapinduzi na kwa muda mrefu hakukuwa na uchaguzi wakiongozwa na Baraza La Mapinduzi (Revolutionary Council); ndio maana hata Misri hakuna serikali ya kidemokrasia bali ile ya kimapinduzi inayoongozwa na jeshi.

Hoja ya kufuata taratibu za kubadilisha bendera zinazotolewa na Membe na wengine zina nguvu lakini zina assume kuna utaratibu wa kawaida wa kiserikali kubadilishana. Lakini katika mapinduzi hali inakuwaje? Je balozi wa Misri kwa mfano bado anawakilisha Misri Tanzania hata baada ya mapinduzi baridi?

............. rebels must demonstrate actual independence of outside authority such as NATO, EU, etc, not the supremacy of one town over others but the independence of one state from its peers and that's why some of us argue a sovereign state is said to be in fact politically and juridically independent of any superior............

 

[FJM]

Je balozi wa Misri kwa mfano bado anawakilisha Misri Tanzania hata baada ya mapinduzi baridi?

@MM, balozi wa Misri week iliyopita alikuwa anatoa mada nadhani kwenye mambo ya maji. Everything is fine between TZ & Misri, na sijasikia Membe akiongea a bad word about either Misri au Tunisia. Kwa mawazo yangu, huu msimamo anaohubiri Membe ni mwendelezo wa visionary leadership (or lack of it). Sio domestic policy sio foregn standing Tanzania is become a useful chicken.

Kuna wakubwa waliokutana Windhoek mapema mwezi huu (August) wakajidai kuwa walikuwa wanaongelea namna ya kuhifadhi kumbukumbu za harakati za ukombozi. The list had the usual suspect, Mugabe, JK, Zuma-rep, etc. Hawakuwaalika Ghana, wala Rwanda au hata Senegal maana walijua hawa wangewatolea uvivu.

Muda wa Africa kumuokoa huyu bwana na hata kuonesha jeuri was there lakini hawa viongozi wetu waliamua kujivuta huku wanaona wazi wazi Gadaffi anazidisha maangamizi Benghazi. So it is good that NTC have showed them that with or without AU support Gadaffi must go and he's gone!

 

[Keil]

Bendera is just an excuse ya Tanzania kutotaka kuonekana iko upande gani kati ya Gadaffi na Waasi. Hawataki kumuonyesha Gadaffi kwamba wako upande wa waasi na wakati huo huo hawataki kuwaonyesha nchi za magharibi kwamba wako upande upi, matokeo yake ndio hayo ya kutumia bendera kama excuse. Ninasubiri kwa shauku kubwa sana, je, serikali itamfukuza huyo Balozi?

Wa-Benghazi siyo waasi wa kwanza kujitwalia madaraka hapa Afrika. Hata Museveni aliingia madarakani kwa njia hiyo hiyo na kwa kusaidiwa na watutsi (Kagame akiwa mmojawao na alikuwa na post kubwa sana kwenye serikali ya mwanzo ya Museveni). Kagame naye aliingia madarakani kwa njia hiyo hiyo. Kabila mkubwa na mdogo nao walitumia njia hiyo.

Tatizo la Libya ni kwamba serikali imeshikwa pabaya na haiko tayari ku-declare interest zake kwamba ilimkumbatia Gadaffi kwa sababu zao za zawadi na hela za wa-Libya ambazo walikuwa wakiletewa. Sasa wakati wa kumuonyesha Gadaffi kwamba wako naye umefika, lakini hawawezi kujionyesha wazi wazi na ndio maana akina Membe wanaishia kuja excuse na ku-cite Geneva Convention.

Swali linakuja, what if kusingekuwa na mabadiliko ya bendera, je, serikali ingekuja na excuse ipi? Je, huyo Balozi wangemdai apeleke credentials mpya za serikali ya mpito? Mbona hatujaona mabalozi wa Misri na Tunisia kama wamepeleka credentials mpya na ilihali kuna serikali za mpito ambazo zinafanana tu na hayo ambayo tunayashuhudia Libya?

 

[ZeMarcopolo]

Sidhani kama mtu anahitaji kuwa genius ili aweze kufahamu kuwa aliyeondoa utawala wa Ghadafi madarakani ni NATO na wala sio waasi. Na pia haihitaji mtu kuwa professor ili afahamu kuwa Ghadafi ametolewa madarakani kwa silaha na si kwa nguvu ya umma. Vilevile huhitaji kuwa mganga wa kupiga ramli ili uweze kufahamu kuwa waasi wa Libya hawana nguvu za kijeshi wala za kisiasa za kuongoza Libya bila support ya NATO.

Kimsingi, Tanzania haiifahamu bendera ya Libya kutoka kwenye vitabu vya ramani, HAPANA. Serikali ya Libya inapoanzisha uhusiano wa kidiplomasia na Tanzania inatueleza pia bendera yao ya Taifa ikoje na wimbo wao wa taifa ikiwa ni pamoja na sample za signatures za maofisa wa ngazi mbalimbali. Balozi wa Libya alipokuja Tanzania alikuja na barua ya utambulisho toka kwa Rais wa nchi yake. Tumempokea kwa sababu nyaraka alizotuletea ni nyaraka sahihi kama jinsi tulivyakubaliana katika kuuanzisha uhusiano wetu.

Balozi anapobadilisha bendera, moja kwa moja anatoka kwenye makubaliano ya awali. Nyaraka atakazotumia kwa mawasiliano mbalimbali na serikali yetu zitakuwwa na bendera hiyo ya waasi na hata wakati fulani atajikuta analeta nyaraka yenye sahihi ambazo samples zake hazipo kwenye mafaili ya makubalianoo yetu ya kidiplomasia. Kubadilisha kupeperusha bendera kusichukuliwe kwamba ni kwenye mlingoti tu. Jambo hili lifikiriwe kwa mapana.

Kwa hiyo, ni sahihi kwa wizara ya mambo ya nje ya Tanzania kuujulisha ubalozi huo kuwa kitendo chake cha kupeperusha bendera ya waasi si sahihi. Inachofanya wizara sio kumwamrisha balozi huyo bali ni kumpa taarifa kuwa ametoka nje ya makubaliano yaliyomwezesha yeye kuja kuiwakilisha serikali ya Libya. Iwapo ataamua kupuuzia "concern" hiyo basi hakuna kinachobaki zaidi ya kumpa AMRI ya kuondoka nchini.

Kinachotokea hapa ni kama njama ya waasi kupush serikali mbalimbali zitoe matamko juu ya kuwatambua au kutokuwatambua kwao. Kwetu sisi wamefanikiwa nusu kwa kuwa tumetoa tamko, ila nusu hawajafanikiwa kwa sababu tamko lenyewe ni kwamba HATUWATAMBUI.

Iwapo tutaridhika kuwa watu wa Libya wanawatambua na iwapo tutaridhika kuwa interests zetu zinaheshimiwa na serikali hiyo basi bila shakaa tutawatambua. Nchi za magharibi zimeangalia kwanza interests zao, halafu ndio wanapush watu wa Libya kuwakubali waasi. Hii ndio tofauti yetu kwa sasa.

 

[Mag3]

Hapo kwenye red hebu fafanua. So far hakuna anaye dispute Libya as a state. Sasa unaposema "a political entity that has attained the status of sovereign statehood" what "political entity" are you referring to?
To you what do you understand by a sovereign?

Huyu SlidingRoof mpaka sasa ameonyesha kutojua kuwa hajui. Anaongelea sovereignty bila qualification yoyote halafu hapo hapo bila kufafanua anaongelea sovereign state. Hebu tuende taratibu;

Libyan rebel leader Mustafa Abdul Jalil gave forces loyal to Muammar Qaddafi until Sept. 3 to surrender
or face attack and said members of the former leader's government would receive a fair trial.
Fighters mass outside Sirte as Libyan interim leader asks Gaddafi men to surrender by Saturday or face military action.
Sirte is the birthplace of Gadafi and now his last stand after being driven out of Tripoli.
​

Wakati haya yakiendelea hapa nyumbani Wabongo wakiongozwa na Kikwete wanaendelea kumlilia Gadafi !

 

[EMT]

Sidhani kama mtu anahitaji kuwa genius ili aweze kufahamu kuwa aliyeondoa utawala wa Ghadafi madarakani ni NATO na wala sio waasi. Na pia haihitaji mtu kuwa professor ili afahamu kuwa Ghadafi ametolewa madarakani kwa silaha na si kwa nguvu ya umma. Vilevile huhitaji kuwa mganga wa kupiga ramli ili uweze kufahamu kuwa waasi wa Libya hawana nguvu za kijeshi wala za kisiasa za kuongoza Libya bila support ya NATO.

Kimsingi, Tanzania haiifahamu bendera ya Libya kutoka kwenye vitabu vya ramani, HAPANA. Serikali ya Libya inapoanzisha uhusiano wa kidiplomasia na Tanzania inatueleza pia bendera yao ya Taifa ikoje na wimbo wao wa taifa ikiwa ni pamoja na sample za signatures za maofisa wa ngazi mbalimbali. Balozi wa Libya alipokuja Tanzania alikuja na barua ya utambulisho toka kwa Rais wa nchi yake. Tumempokea kwa sababu nyaraka alizotuletea ni nyaraka sahihi kama jinsi tulivyakubaliana katika kuuanzisha uhusiano wetu.

Balozi anapobadilisha bendera, moja kwa moja anatoka kwenye makubaliano ya awali. Nyaraka atakazotumia kwa mawasiliano mbalimbali na serikali yetu zitakuwwa na bendera hiyo ya waasi na hata wakati fulani atajikuta analeta nyaraka yenye sahihi ambazo samples zake hazipo kwenye mafaili ya makubalianoo yetu ya kidiplomasia. Kubadilisha kupeperusha bendera kusichukuliwe kwamba ni kwenye mlingoti tu. Jambo hili lifikiriwe kwa mapana.

Kwa hiyo, ni sahihi kwa wizara ya mambo ya nje ya Tanzania kuujulisha ubalozi huo kuwa kitendo chake cha kupeperusha bendera ya waasi si sahihi. Inachofanya wizara sio kumwamrisha balozi huyo bali ni kumpa taarifa kuwa ametoka nje ya makubaliano yaliyomwezesha yeye kuja kuiwakilisha serikali ya Libya. Iwapo ataamua kupuuzia "concern" hiyo basi hakuna kinachobaki zaidi ya kumpa AMRI ya kuondoka nchini.

Kinachotokea hapa ni kama njama ya waasi kupush serikali mbalimbali zitoe matamko juu ya kuwatambua au kutokuwatambua kwao. Kwetu sisi wamefanikiwa nusu kwa kuwa tumetoa tamko, ila nusu hawajafanikiwa kwa sababu tamko lenyewe ni kwamba HATUWATAMBUI.

Iwapo tutaridhika kuwa watu wa Libya wanawatambua na iwapo tutaridhika kuwa interests zetu zinaheshimiwa na serikali hiyo basi bila shakaa tutawatambua. Nchi za magharibi zimeangalia kwanza interests zao, halafu ndio wanapush watu wa Libya kuwakubali waasi. Hii ndio tofauti yetu kwa sasa.

Hapo kwenye red balozi huwa anawakilisha serikali au nchi? Wakati unajibu hili swali bear in mind that Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Convention inasema "The functions of a diplomatic mission consist, inter alia, in representing the sending State in the receiving State."

 

[EMT]

Huyu SlidingRoof mpaka sasa ameonyesha kutojua kuwa hajui. Anaongelea sovereignty bila qualification yoyote halafu hapo hapo bila kufafanua anaongelea sovereign state.

Mkuu ambacho sikufurahishwa nacho ni SlidingRoof kumwambia Mbopo akae pembemni ili yeye mwenye uelewa wa sheria za kimataifa atufafanulie juu ya hili suala. Unfortunately, SlidingRoof does not even seem to know the difference between state recognition and government recognition. Anachanganya kati ya nchi na serikali. Kuna wengine humu wanafikiri balozi huwa anawakilisha serikali. Inasikitisha.

 

[HT]

wandugu, naona mjadala umejaa emotions lakini turudi ktk ukweli. Sheria za Tanzania zinasema nini juu ya kubadili bendera na hasa utawala unaoingia kwa staili hii ya uasi?

 

[Game Theory]

Hapo kwenye red hebu fafanua. So far hakuna anaye dispute Libya as a state. Sasa unaposema "a political entity that has attained the status of sovereign statehood" what "political entity" are you referring to?



To you what do you understand by a sovereign?

simple:


1. Rebels

2. Depends on who you ask...thats why is social sciences we never come up with one universal answer and in international relations discourse, scholars, diplomats, politicians, and government officials often casually refer to sovereignty without identifying the sense in which they are using the term.

Many of them apparently assume that the meaning of sovereignty is universally recognized. Yet as one Vernon A. O'Rourke, in his book The Juristic Status of Egypt and the Sudan ( Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1935), observed years ago: "The word sovereignty holds various conflicting connotations and by no means arouses identical patterns in the minds of different students."( tazama page 10) so if you want a short answer to your question, its an English word sovereignty originally derived from the French term souverain: a supreme ruler not accountable to anyone, except perhaps to God.....Tazama kitabu kilichoandikwa na Ivo D. Duchacek, Nations and Men: International Politics Today ( New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1966), p. 47.

So today the flavor of sovereignty depends upon the context in which the word is used since different usages are applied in different circumstances, the meaning of sovereignty varies accord ing to the issue that is being addressed,discussed or the question that is being asked.

For instance, if one states that "a critical difference between Gibraltar and Malta in the Mediterranean, or between Puerto Rico and Haiti in the Caribbean, is sovereignty," the reference likely denotes a particular status in international relations. The international community (EU, UN etc) considers Malta and Haiti to be sovereign states but takes Gibraltar and Puerto Rico to be dependent parts of the British and American commonwealths.

 

[ZeMarcopolo]

Hapo kwenye red balozi huwa anawakilisha serikali au nchi? Wakati unajibu hili swali bear in mind that Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Convention inasema "The functions of a diplomatic mission consist, inter alia, in representing the sending State in the receiving State."

Swali lako ni sawa na kusema mbunge anawakilisha chama au wananchi wa jimbo. Jibu ni kwamba balozi anawakilisha nchi. Lakini nchi huongozwa na serikali.

In the case of huyu balozi ndumilakuwili, je tuna uhakika gani kama hao waasi wanamtambua yeye kama mwakilishi wa nchi? Isije ikafika mahala wakaanza kupigana vita hapo ndani wakigombania nani akalie kiti cha balozi. ndio maana kuna taratibu maalum za kutambuana.

 

[Keil]

............. rebels must demonstrate actual independence of outside authority such as NATO, EU, etc, not the supremacy of one town over others but the independence of one state from its peers and that's why some of us argue a sovereign state is said to be in fact politically and juridically independent of any superior............

Rebels wengi wa nchi za Afrika huwa hawako independent wakiwa kwenye movement za kuondoa serikali iliyo madarakani. Ili ufanikiwe kwenye hilo lazima upate msaada wa training, pamoja na zana za kivita. Hayo yote yako documented kwenye vitabu vingi vya walioshiriki kwenye hizo movements.

Pia lazima hao rebels wawe na mji au eneo ambalo wanaloweza kulitumia kama base yao kwa ajili ya kuji-organise na kuanza mashambulizi ya kuiondoa serikali iliyo madarakani. Bado nitatoa mfano wa Mseveni, wakati Amin akiwa madarakani Nyerere aliwaruhusu akina Mseveni waendeshe kambi ya training kule Kigwa - Tabora. Amini akapata taarifa, ikabidi wakabane koo na Nyerere akakubali kambi ifungwe. Lakini tayari Mseveni alikuwa na watu wake ambao alishawa-train tayari. Then Mseveni mwenyewe alishiriki kwenye vita ya kumng'oa Idd Amin akishirikiana na majeshi ya Tanzania, na hakuwa Mseveni peke yake bali kulikuwa na vijana wengine ambao bado walikuwa kwenye serikali ya Amin lakini walikuwa wanatumika kama double agents.

Baada ya Obote kurudi madarakani, Mseveni hakuridhishwa na kilichokuwa kikiendelea, bado alirudi msituni tena na kuendelea kuomba misaada ya silaha. Msitu uliokuwa ukitumika ni sawa na Benghazi tu ilivyotumika baada ya kuona kwamba Tripoli ndipo yalipo makao makuu ya Gadaffi na hivyo kulianzisha ukiwa Tripoli ni sawa na kujichimbia kaburi.

Kagame baada ya kutimuliwa kwenye serikali ya Mseveni aliamua kuwa-organize watutsi wenzake na wakaweka base Kusini mwa Uganda. Rwanda walipopata hizo habari, wakambana Mseveni, then Mseveni akamwambia Kagame aingie ndani ya mpaka wa Rwanda na walifanya hivyo. So, mashambulizi ya Kagame yalianzia Kusini mwa Uganda na baada ya kuteka eneo ndipo sasa wakaamua kufanya kweli mpaka wakaikamata Kigali. The same applies kwa banyamulenge waliomsaidia Kabila kuingia Kinshasa, alianzia mashariki mwa DRC mpaka wakaja kuikamata Kinshasa.

Hoja yako ya independence isiwe applied kwa wa-Libya tu, tuangalie pia historia inasema nini. Au independence ni kwa kuangalia msaada unatoka wapi? Msaada ukitoka kwa waafrika wenzako ni sawa, lakini ukitoka kwa wazungu ndiyo inakuwa nongwa? Mapinduzi kuanzia/kuendeshwa na watu wa Benghazi haimaanishi kwamba hayaungwi mkono na miji mingine, if that was the case then Tripoli isingeanguka kwa kuwa Tripoli ndiyo ambayo ina population kubwa kuliko miji yote ya Libya.