Balozi wa Libya Tanzania akaidi kushusha bendera ya NTC!

[Game Theory]

mbona unamnyima haki yake ya msingi Mbopo ya kuchangia thread, kwann akae pembeni? wewe leta zako hoja nae aendelee kuleta zake kadiri anavofahamu na wengineo!

nothing wrong with that

 

[Game Theory]

i like it when you say nonsense, halafu unaishia hapo.
Kwanini unataka kuhamisha mjadala kwenye legal bases na kukataa opinion za watu kwenye jambo hili?

Kwa sababu wana JF deserve better than sweeping generalisations on matters of international relations such as this.

This is not CCM vs CHADEMA episode

 

[Mtazamaji]

Hivi hata UK , USA na france hao NTC wamerushisiwa ubadilisha bendera. ? Mi nadhanikuna taratibu zataiwa kufuatwa kabla ya hiyo bdenra haijabadilishwa.

 

[Somoche]

Serikali imtimue huyu Balozi kilaza wa rebels asilete jeuri hapa manake Kuna utaratibu wa kufanya haya mambo wasiojua wanadhani bendera ni kama suruali unavua na kuvaaa tu!!! someni Viena Convetion muone what does the word National Symbol means ndio mje kuongea upupu hapa..wale ni Rebels na wamewekwa na NATO kwanza ningelikua mimi ni Rais ningewatimua mda mref na kamwe nisingewatambua!!! Africa Must stand tall against Colonialist from Europe and US..

 

[Feedback]

nonesense

lete legal evidence kusupport argument yako

Sioni unachochangia angalau Mbopo alikuwa analeta changamoto.

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

Serikali ni wananchi, wananchi wameamua kuiondoa serikali yao madarakani. Na wananchi hao wako chini ya NTC sasa hivi. Ukweli kwamba Gaddafi hayupo madarakani hauna mashaka; kwamba LIbya iko chini ya NTC ambayo sasa hata Uturuki imependekeza bendera yake irushwe umoja wa Mataifa kwenye kikao chake cha Septemba.

Waziri wa Mambo ya Nje wa Uturuki (ambayo nayo ni rafiki wa karibu wa Tanzania) "The National Transitional Council [NTC] of Libya has proved that it is a reliable partner of the international community as it has successfully fulfilled its pledges" na kuwa "its flag needs to be raised in the UN's headquarters in New York in the upcoming session in September"

Hawa wenzetu wameona nini ambacho watu wengine hawajakiona? Wameelwa kwamba sovereignt rests on the people, the citizens not the institutions like Membe wants people to believe. Sovereignty does not rest on processes - kama kuapishana, kupigiwa saluti n.k. Inabakia kwa watu. Na wananchi wakiamua kuondoa utawala wao wanauondoa na hakuna mtu anayeweza kusema haikuwa sahihi. Njia ya kawaida ya kuwaondoa watawala ni kura; lakini kama kura haiwezekani au haujawekwa utaratibu kama ilivyokuwa Libya, Tunisia, Yemen n.k basi njia iliyobakia ni matumizi ya nguvu - yanaitwa mapinduzi.

Kiongozi wa NTC ambaye kwa kweli ni mtendaji mkuu wa Libya sasa ameshasema kuwa ataomba kiti UN na kwa uhakika mkubwa tu atapewa. Lakini sisi hatutakubali hayo yote. Hatutakubali kwa sababu hatukukubali Gaddafi aondolewe alivyoondolewa. Si kwamba tunasimamia kanuni fulani nzito, sijui Geneva convention! I wish that was the case. Hatutaki kuchukua msimamo kwa sababu hatuna sensitivity ya kujali kile wananchi wa LIbya wamekifanya. Tunajaribu kukipuuzia kuwa ni kazi ya "NATO" na "nchi za Magharibi"!

lets face the truth, GAddafi ameondolewa na wananchi wake kwa msaada wa kimataifa (nchi za magharibi na kiarabu zikiwemo). Hatokuwa kiongozi wa kwanza kuondolewa kwa ushirikiano wa nchi za nje na waasi. Tanzania iliwasaidia waasi wa Uganda kumuondoa Idi Amin! Milosevic aliondolewa hivyo hivyo.

Hoja hapa si lazima ziwe za kisheria, ni hoja za kimantiki vile vile. Yule anayeshinda vita ndiye anayebeba jukumu kwa wale walioshindwa.. au hii nayo tumesahau ni kanuni ya Geneva viile vile katika masuala ya vita? Katika kesi hii waasi wameshinda hivyo vita. Well.. ndivyo ilivyokuwa kwa Kagame na vikosi vya "waasi" walivyoingia Rwanda! We might not like our friend kuondolewa, tunaweza kuona kuwa mambo fulani fulani yameharibiwa lakini we have to be reasonable enough to make the right decision siyo kunyemelea kufanya maamuzi na kutegea as if we are led by this grand ideal! we are not.

 

[Game Theory]

What kind of legal evidence do you want? i am not here for political purpose like you!

Je unaelewa maana ya mahusiano ya kidiplomasia?...Suppose membe angemuuliza balozi hii bendera ya utawala wa ghadafi si bendera ya libyani people kwa sasa je balozi angejibu nini??

Balozi wa nchi haletwi kumwakilisha Rais kwa sababu amemteua yeye kwa ajili ya ujomba wala ushemeji!!!....ila huletwa kuwawakilisha wananchi wa nchi husika....so whatch-out!!

Look mkuu, a political entity that has attained the status of sovereign statehood is presumed by its peers to be capable of receiving fundamental international rights & under international law ambayo wewe unaipiga vita, sovereign states may take advantage of various substantial rights, including those of expropriation of diplomatic and sovereign immunity and of jurisdiction over legal matters at home and, increasingly, abroad sasa hawa jamaa zenu aka rebels do not qualify for that kwani bado hawajawa na status ya sovereign.

 

[Feedback]

Serikali imtimue huyu Balozi kilaza wa rebels asilete jeuri hapa manake Kuna utaratibu wa kufanya haya mambo wasiojua wanadhani bendera ni kama suruali unavua na kuvaaa tu!!! someni Viena Convetion muone what does the word National Symbol means ndio mje kuongea upupu hapa..wale ni Rebels na wamewekwa na NATO kwanza ningelikua mimi ni Rais ningewatimua mda mref na kamwe nisingewatambua!!! Africa Must stand tall against Colonialist from Europe and US..

Labda useme tuvunje uhusiano kwa sababu kumfukuza utakuwa huja solve kitu serikali ile ile ya NTC itamleta mwingine na bendera ileile sijui utamfukuza tena.

 

[Mutambukamalogo]

Msifikirie kwa kutumia Masaburi. Eleweni hoja kwanza. Kinacholalamikiwa si uwepo wa bendera au la,lakini kwa kutofuata taratibu za diplamasia za kubadilisha alama za za ech.

 

[MKANDYA]

Mimi naona tatizo hapa si bendera; bali ni je Tanzania imeishaitambua serikali ya waasi? Na je huyu balozi amewasilisha upya credentials zake kwa Rais kuwa ni mwakilishi wa Utawala mpya!?

Kama bado Tanzania inamtambua kama mwakilishi wa Gaddafi hapo ndipo utata wa bendera unakuja.Mabadiliko ya bendera ya Libya yalishafanyika hata huko nyuma.Bendera wanayotumia waasi ndiyo iliyokuwa inatumika wakati wa utawala wa kifalme 1951--1969,Gaddafi alipompinduwa Mfalme Idris.1969--1977 bendera ya Libya ilikuwa na rangi nyekundu, nyeupe na nyeusi. 1977 hadi Gaddafi anajificha bendera ilikuwa ni ya kijani.

Hivyo Membe kwa kuwa serikali ya Tanzania haijawatambua rasmi waasi ana haki ya kutoukubali uwakilishi wa waasi.

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

Balozi wa Libya hakuwa anamwakilisha Gaddafi, alikuwa anaiwakilisha nchi na watu wa Libya na utawala wao. Utawala wa Gaddafi umeporomoka na kuondolewa uhalali wake na kwa maoni ya Walibya ulipoteza uhalali ule pale ulipoamua kuwageuka na kuwashambulia; na japo wengine tunafikiria labda uligeuka baada ya waasi kuanza Benghazi ukweli ni kuwa kwenye mioyo ya baadhi ya wananchi wa Libya ulikuwa umepoteza uhalali wake muda mrefu sana.

Sasa watu wa Libya wapo, wananchi wa Libya wapo, na utawala mpya ulioongoza maasi upo na umekubaliwa kuwa ndio unajukumu la kutawala kama serikali ya mpito kuelekea utawala mpya.

 

[Game Theory]

Hivi hata UK , USA na france hao NTC wamerushisiwa ubadilisha bendera. ? Mi nadhanikuna taratibu zataiwa kufuatwa kabla ya hiyo bdenra haijabadilishwa.

Infact the whole NATO operation was contradictory na inthe eyes of international laws kuna mambo yalikuwa overlooked kwani watu walishadhamiria kuwa by EID Gadaffi should be out of power. Infact Libya is still under arms embargo so basically kuwa arm hawa rebels was CLEAR violation of UNSCR 1973

 

[Genekai]

Kwani ni serikali gani ya Libya inayoongoza nchi, ile ya Gadafi au mnaowaita waasi? Huyu Membe alitaka ipeperushwe ile ya Gadafi kwani ana serikali? Jamani we have to deal with essentials and leave the accidents aside!

 

[Feedback]

Mimi naona tatizo hapa si bendera; bali ni je Tanzania imeishaitambua serikali ya waasi? Na je huyu balozi amewasilisha upya credentials zake kwa Rais kuwa ni mwakilishi wa Utawala mpya!? Kama bado Tanzania inamtambua kama mwakilishi wa Gaddafi hapo ndipo utata wa bendera unakuja.

Mabadiliko ya bendera ya Libya yalishafanyika hata huko nyuma.Bendera wanayotumia waasi ndiyo iliyokuwa inatumika wakati wa utawala wa kifalme 1951--1969,Gaddafi alipompinduwa Mfalme Idris.1969--1977 bendera ya Libya ilikuwa na rangi nyekundu,nyeupe na nyeusi. 1977 hadi Gaddafi anajificha bendera ilikuwa ni ya kijani.

Hivyo Membe kwa kuwa serikali ya Tanzania haijawatambua rasmi waasi ana haki ya kutoukubali uwakilishi wa waasi.

Kama ni mwakilishi wa Gaddafi sawa bora aondoke maana hata anayemwakilisha ameshaondolewa lakini kama anawakilisha wananchi lazima aheshimiwe.

 

[EMT]

Cut Mbopo and Membe some slack

Hakuna critic wa Membe na Foreign anayeongoza humu JF kama mimi na kwenye hili niko naye through and through na kama kuna mtu anazo arguments why we should recognise these rebels then aje nazo lakini pia aje na citations za ku back up arguments zake

Mbopo hii niachie. wewe kaa pembeni hawa nitawajibu vilivyo

Mkuu hebu tuambie ni kwa nini ubalozi wa Libya hauwezi kubadilisha bendera? Hebu tupe grounds. Labda wengine hatuzijui. Inawezekana zipo taratibu. Tufafanulie mkuu. Utakuwa umetusaidia sana.

 

[HISIA KALI]

Membe amekosa kazi nyingine za maana za kufanya mpaka afuatilie aina ya bendera inayopeperushwa kwenye ubalozi wa Libya? Je huyo balozi akiamua kutopeperusha bendera yoyote hapa ofisini kwake itakuwa ni kosa?

Halafu wakati mwingine inabidi tu watu wakubali hali halisi ilivyo. Sasa serikali ya Tanzania isipoitambua serikali mpya ya Libya itapata faida gani? Kwanza sidhani kama hiyo serikali ya Libya inahitaji sana Tanzania. Mataifa makubwa na yenye nguvu za kiuchumi na kijeshi duniani tayari yameshaitambua hiyo serikali mpya ya Libya, what is Tanzania government? What Tanzania government can offer to the new Libya government?.

Ukiangalia serikali ambazo bado hazijaitambua hiyo serikali mpya ya Libya nazo zina matatizo. Mfano mzuri ni Zimbabwe, Mugabe matatizo yake yanajulikana. Kikwete naye alishaonyesha wasiwasi kuwa maandamano ya CHADEMA yana nia ya kumtoa madarakani kabla ya wakati.

Kwa hiyo sio jambo la kushangaa kusikia serikali yake inakataa kuitambua serikali mpya ya Libya iliongia kwa nguvu ya umma ambao hata hivyo ilibidi watumie silaha na kumwaga sana damu baada ya Gadaffi kuanza kuwashambulia kijeshi ili kulinda utawala wake, lakini hata hivyo umma umepambana naye vilivyo mpaka sasa amejificha kwenye mapango kama panya buku.

 

[Ndahani]

Politics is abit funny in our continent. There should be a way to conduct ourselves than what we do now. We follow the direction of wind....

 

[Game Theory]

Balozi wa Libya hakuwa anamwakilisha Gaddafi, alikuwa anaiwakilisha nchi na watu wa Libya na utawala wao. Utawala wa Gaddafi umeporomoka na kuondolewa uhalali wake na kwa maoni ya Walibya ulipoteza uhalali ule pale ulipoamua kuwageuka na kuwashambulia; na japo wengine tunafikiria labda uligeuka baada ya waasi kuanza Benghazi ukweli ni kuwa kwenye mioyo ya baadhi ya wananchi wa Libya ulikuwa umepoteza uhalali wake muda mrefu sana.

Sasa watu wa Libya wapo, wananchi wa Libya wapo, na utawala mpya ulioongoza maasi upo na umekubaliwa kuwa ndio unajukumu la kutawala kama serikali ya mpito kuelekea utawala mpya.

Unfortunately what we are dealing with here are rebels.

couple of things , BERNARD MEMBE and those wonks at the foreign ministry probably looked couple of issues beforeand . First, these rebels to claim a sovereign state must able to show actual political supremacy in the Libyan territory & they should and must convincingly maintain their supremacy over all other potential authorities within that territory and population....well, we all know they've failed that.

Second, rebels must demonstrate actual independence of outside authority such as NATO, EU, etc, not the supremacy of one town over others but the independence of one state from its peers and that's why some of us argue a sovereign state is said to be in fact politically and juridically independent of any superior.

Therefore from this perspective these rebels if they claim to be a sovereign state must do more than merely claim to be autonomous and independent. In otherword a truly sovereign state is able to assert its de factoi nternal supremacy and external independence in practice and not symbolisms of flags such as those demonstrated by the rogue ambassador of Libya who to me is acting more like a yob than an international diplomat

 

[Game Theory]

Mkuu hebu tuambie ni kwa nini ubalozi wa Libya hauwezi kubadilisha bendera? Hebu tupe grounds. Labda wengine hatuzijui. Inawezekana zipo taratibu. Tufafanulie mkuu. Utakuwa umetusaidia sana.

Because they are not a sovereign yet and other reasons have been mentioned by my above post

 

[Game Theory]

Membe amekosa kazi nyingine za maana za kufanya mpaka afuatilie aina ya bendera inayopeperushwa kwenye ubalozi wa Libya? Je huyo balozi akiamua kutopeperusha bendera yoyote hapa ofisini kwake itakuwa ni kosa?

Halafu wakati mwingine inabidi tu watu wakubali hali halisi ilivyo. Sasa serikali ya Tanzania isipoitambua serikali mpya ya Libya itapata faida gani? Kwanza sidhani kama hiyo serikali ya Libya inahitaji sana Tanzania. Mataifa makubwa na yenye nguvu za kiuchumi na kijeshi duniani tayari yameshaitambua hiyo serikali mpya ya Libya, what is Tanzania government? What Tanzania government can offer to the new Libya government?.

Ukiangalia serikali ambazo bado hazijaitambua hiyo serikali mpya ya Libya nazo zina matatizo. Mfano mzuri ni Zimbabwe, Mugabe matatizo yake yanajulikana. Kikwete naye alishaonyesha wasiwasi kuwa maandamano ya CHADEMA yana nia ya kumtoa madarakani kabla ya wakati.

Kwa hiyo sio jambo la kushangaa kusikia serikali yake inakataa kuitambua serikali mpya ya Libya iliongia kwa nguvu ya umma ambao hata hivyo ilibidi watumie silaha na kumwaga sana damu baada ya Gadaffi kuanza kuwashambulia kijeshi ili kulinda utawala wake, lakini hata hivyo umma umepambana naye vilivyo mpaka sasa amejificha kwenye mapango kama panya buku.

Dude this is not a CHADEMA vs CCM episode....