Serikali ya Tanzania yaridhia utoaji mimba

[Susuviri]

Nakubaliana na bwana Ngabu asilimia mia moja utoaji wa mimba ni kinyume na maadili ya kiafrika na hata baadhi ya dini zetu haziruhusu. Pia utoaji wa mimba hauna faida yoyote. By the way mkuu Ngabu ile Avatar yako ya mwanzo ilikuwa inamvuto mzuri.

Mkuu, mi naomba unionyeshe mila gani ya mwafrika iko against utoaji mimba wakati tunajua fika kuwa mabibi zetu walikuwa wanatoa mimba lakini wengi walikuwa wanafanya kinyemela na hivyo kubaki kuwa siri kutokana na kunyanyapaliwa na wanaume waliofikiri ya kuwa mwili wa mwanamke ni property yake. Katika siri wanawake hutoa katika mazingira ya hatari yaliyosababisha hata kifo cha mama.

Usitake kutumia 'mila' na 'desturi'kupinga kitu.... we zungumzia maisha ya sasa... utakuja kusema eti mabibi na mababu zetu walikuwa wanavaa hijabb na Victorian dresses with gloves, na ndo maana wasichana wasivae vimini, wakati ukweli ni kuwa vizazi vyetu vilivyopita walivaa ngozi, nyasi na walitembea nusu uchi....

 

[Susuviri]

Mi nachoona ni kuwa emotions ride high... anyway, mi nadhani asilimia kubwa ya wachangiaji hapa ni wanaume ningefurahi kusoma maoni ya akina dada. Mi nadhani wanaume inabidi tuwasikilize wamama kwani wao ndo wanambeba mtoto kwa miezi 9 also kama baba ataamua kutelekeza mtoto, mama ndo ana jukumu la kumlea, so it is alright for all the men to be self righteous lakini part yao katika hili ni sperm donation mpaka mtoto akitoka tumboni.
Mi naamini katika haki za akina mama, na ingawa sikubaliani na utoaji mimba binafsi lakini pia naamini siwezi kuingilia maisha ya mtu na kumfanyia maamuzi. I support a woman's right to choose.

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Mi nachoona ni kuwa emotions ride high... anyway, mi nadhani asilimia kubwa ya wachangiaji hapa ni wanaume ningefurahi kusoma maoni ya akina dada. Mi nadhani wanaume inabidi tuwasikilize wamama kwani wao ndo wanambeba mtoto kwa miezi 9 also kama baba ataamua kutelekeza mtoto, mama ndo ana jukumu la kumlea, so it is alright for all the men to be self righteous lakini part yao katika hili ni sperm donation mpaka mtoto akitoka tumboni.

I am against deadbeat dads too and we should shame them whenever possible. But just because the father is not around or won't be around, his absence doesn't justify ending the child's life. Nothing justifies ending a human life other than defending your own life when another human wants to harm yours.

Mi naamini katika haki za akina mama,

Vipi haki za mtoto asiye na makosa yoyote? Una amini naye ana haki ya kuishi?

na ingawa sikubaliani na utoaji mimba binafsi lakini pia naamini siwezi kuingilia maisha ya mtu na kumfanyia maamuzi.

Huoni kwamba kumuua mtoto kwa kutoa mimba yake ni kumfanyia maamuzi na kufanyia maamuzi maisha yake; kwamba aishi au asiishi? Shame on you Susuviri..shame you

I support a woman's right to choose.

Is there a better choice than life? Given life and death, which one would you choose? Shame on you for your brazen disregard for the right of others to live. Shame on you.

 

[Suki]

well, I would put it in a different way.

Shoot.

 

[Mzee Mwanakijiji]

Shoot.

I know you didn't see that one coming.

 

[Suki]

I know you didn't see that one coming.

If by that you mean,I expected you to make an alternative statement instead then yes.

 

[jambotemuv]

Susuviri na wengine mjiulize, Ingekuwa mila zetu zaruhusu utoaji mimba wasingetoa kwa kificho. Ukiona hawathubutu kuliweka hadharani ndo ujue halikubaliki kwa jamii. Ni kama ilivyo uasherati na zinaaa kwenye jamii nyingi duniani hata adhabu ya kifo ilitolewa. Wale manaokandia hoja za kulaani utoaji mimba kisa eti hazikuandikwa kiswahili mwasahau kilio cha watoto hakina lugha na ujumbe wapaswa uwafikie wengi waelewe na kuwatetea kwa lugha zao. Kama wajua Kiholanzi, kichina Ruksa ndugu watetee watoto kwani JF haitaumia kwa mchina kupata ujumbe mzuri hapa.
JIULIZE. Haki kubwa wazungu waloona wamama wanaikosa ni ya kutoa mbimba tu? Haki ya kuishi kwa amani hata kama umezaliwa kuliko na maliasili wanayoihitaji wazungu kama Coltan huko Congo, Mafuta, na madini hawastahili? Mashirika yachimbayo madini na agawayo silaha kwa wazawa wauane ili maliasili ziporwe wanauwa wamama na watoto wangapi? Umesikia walikkemea hilo?
UKOLONI MAMBOLEO RANGI ZAKE MWAZIJUA?

 

[Susuviri]

Nyani, my friend, I know that you are a passionate anti-abortion advocate and I respect that I really do

I am against deadbeat dads too and we should shame them whenever possible. But just because the father is not around or won't be around, his absence doesn't justify ending the child's life. Nothing justifies ending a human life other than defending your own life when another human wants to harm yours.

I repeat again, I may personally agree with what you say however I think that when a 13 year old girl is raped, comes from apoor family and has to raise the child without much help and has to struggle for the rest of her life, we DO NOT have a right to judge her. I have seen a lot of women struggle and their lives ebb away through such struggle. I have seen children who grow up in such conditions becoming alcoholics and two have even died young from alchoholism. There are consequences to pregnancy.... and we should let the one who bears the child make the decision and respect it.

Vipi haki za mtoto asiye na makosa yoyote? Una amini naye ana haki ya kuishi?


Huoni kwamba kumuua mtoto kwa kutoa mimba yake ni kumfanyia maamuzi na kufanyia maamuzi maisha yake; kwamba aishi au asiishi? Shame on you Susuviri..shame you

Making the decision to bring that child into this life, uneducated, poor and not being able to ensure proper food, shelter and education is also depriving the child of rights! Shame on those who drop children into this world for the children to suffer!
You see? You can turn everything around and make it an outrage! I am not enraged or outraged in any way, but I do believe that giving birth to the child already makes you the DECIDER of that child's fate just like abortion. The best solution would be not to have a child at all i.e. safe sex but that does not exist 100% unfortunately.

Is there a better choice than life? Given life and death, which one would you choose? Shame on you for your brazen disregard for the right of others to live. Shame on you

How about death from disease and poverty? Let us not pretend that all the children are born into a life of happiness, loving and care!
Judge not, so you wil not be judged.

 

[Susuviri]

Susuviri na wengine mjiulize, Ingekuwa mila zetu zaruhusu utoaji mimba wasingetoa kwa kificho. Ukiona hawathubutu kuliweka hadharani ndo ujue halikubaliki kwa jamii. Ni kama ilivyo uasherati na zinaaa kwenye jamii nyingi duniani hata adhabu ya kifo ilitolewa. Wale manaokandia hoja za kulaani utoaji mimba kisa eti hazikuandikwa kiswahili mwasahau kilio cha watoto hakina lugha na ujumbe wapaswa uwafikie wengi waelewe na kuwatetea kwa lugha zao. Kama wajua Kiholanzi, kichina Ruksa ndugu watetee watoto kwani JF haitaumia kwa mchina kupata ujumbe mzuri hapa.
JIULIZE. Haki kubwa wazungu waloona wamama wanaikosa ni ya kutoa mbimba tu? Haki ya kuishi kwa amani hata kama umezaliwa kuliko na maliasili wanayoihitaji wazungu kama Coltan huko Congo, Mafuta, na madini hawastahili? Mashirika yachimbayo madini na agawayo silaha kwa wazawa wauane ili maliasili ziporwe wanauwa wamama na watoto wangapi? Umesikia walikkemea hilo?
UKOLONI MAMBOLEO RANGI ZAKE MWAZIJUA?

Spare me the moralizing. Ukitoa mifano ya vitu ambavyo vilifanywa kifichoni zamani kwa sababu ni dhambi au eti kinachostahili kifo ni sababu ambazo narudia - hutolewa na watu ambao wanajiona kama siku zote hawatendi kosa, na haiangali ukweli ya kuwa hapo awali jamii zetu zilikuwa ni ya mfumo dume. Unapozungumzia uasherati na zinaa naomba niulize, who are you to judge? Kama wewe umependana na mwanamke, mkaamua kufanya mapenzi kabla ya kuoana je hilo ni zinaa? Kwani zamani walikuwa hawatendi hivi? Lakini si walifanya mafichoni kwa siri? Siku hizi tumekuwa wazi zaidi na in fact mwanamke akiolewa bikra itakuwa ni kitu cha ajabu.
Na kama member of JF nina haki kama wewe na Nyani kutoa maoni yangu, hii ndo demokrasia, usitake kujifanya we ni mzalendo zaidi eti kwa sababu unatetea au kupinga hoja. Uzalendo haupimwi hivyo. Ukoloni mamboleo siyo utoaji mimba, ukitaka discussion kuhusu topic hii anzisha thread nyingine. Si tunazungumzia ishu ya utoaji mimba which is a sensitive topic but not impossible to discuss.
Asante mkuu!

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

Nyani, my friend, I know that you are a passionate anti-abortion advocate and I respect that I really do
I repeat again, I may personally agree with what you say however I think that when a 13 year old girl is raped, comes from apoor family and has to raise the child without much help and has to struggle for the rest of her life, we DO NOT have a right to judge her.

One can make exceptions in such cases. But cases like those are are few and far between.

I have seen a lot of women struggle and their lives ebb away through such struggle.

What women? Women who were raped or women who were promiscuos and ended up getting pregnant?

I have seen children who grow up in such conditions becoming alcoholics and two have even died young from alchoholism. There are consequences to pregnancy.... and we should let the one who bears the child make the decision and respect it.

I don't respect any decision to end a human life.

Making the decision to bring that child into this life, uneducated, poor and not being able to ensure proper food, shelter and education is also depriving the child of rights! Shame on those who drop children into this world for the children to suffer!
You see? You can turn everything around and make it an outrage! I am not enraged or outraged in any way, but I do believe that giving birth to the child already makes you the DECIDER of that child's fate just like abortion. The best solution would be not to have a child at all i.e. safe sex but that does not exist 100% unfortunately.


How about death from disease and poverty? Let us not pretend that all the children are born into a life of happiness, loving and care!
Judge not, so you wil not be judged.

Sorry Susu, nothing can justifies enging the life of the unborn....

 

[Interested Observer]

Hivi uhai wa mtu unaanza lini?

after conception

 

[Nyani Ngabu]

after conception

okay.....

 

[Susuviri]

One can make exceptions in such cases. But cases like those are are few and far between.

But isn't it right to ensure that the few and far between also have a choice? We shouldn't make decisions for them

What women? Women who were raped or women who were promiscuos and ended up getting pregnant?
.

No my friend, we have no right to judge as men, what are the consequences for promiscous men???? They walk away while a girl will be punished for life! Come on! I am talking about young girls who are not given proper sex education and get pregnant with their first boyfriends! They have rights too. Why should they be chucked out of school, live a life without education, raise a child for a mistake committed by two people yet punishment is for only one of them! Mawazo ya kusema eti ni kosa lake azae tu ni very sexist, sorry! I think even men today have to think beyond the usual pattern, we know better!

I don't respect any decision to end a human life.



Sorry Susu, nothing can justifies enging the life of the unborn.

I respect your opinion, I honestly do! But there is more to this, it is not a black and white issue!

 

[jambotemuv]

Nyani, my friend, I know that you are a passionate anti-abortion advocate and I respect that I really do



Making the decision to bring that child into this life, uneducated, poor and not being able to ensure proper food, shelter and education is also depriving the child of rights! Shame on those who drop children into this world for the children to suffer!

All children are born uneducated, poor, etc. Doing the best, with the help of GOD, to provide for the helpless child is what is expected of parents.

I do believe that giving birth to the child already makes you the DECIDER of that child's fate just like abortion.
No. The fate of any child is never certain to anybody other than GOD. I doubt whether your mother would say she honestly knew where you would end up in life.

The best solution would be not to have a child at all i.e. safe sex but that does not exist 100% unfortunately.

Never a good solution once it involves killing a child.


How about death from disease and poverty?
Common to all. Not all suffer or even die from diseases and pooverty just because parents could not provide when they were helpless children.

Let us not pretend that all the children are born into a life of happiness, loving and care!

A fact but doesn't justify killing them.

Judge not, so you wil not be judged.

Then don't sentence unborn children to death

 

[Susuviri]

Then sentence unborn children to death

Jambotemuv, heshima mkuu, I would appreciate more nuanced thinking on this subject. Highlighting sentences from my long response and giving some banal response is not doing justice to this debate. Jaribu kusoma tena nilichoandika alafu kama una cha kujibu ufanye hivyo na siyo kubanalize my opinion. Asante Mkuu!

 

[Shadow]

Hii Beijing sasa inatupeleka kubaya. I do hope wabunge watasita kutunga sheria ya kutoa mimba.Penal Code na case law zimeweka exeption kuhusu kutoa mimba. what the heck wawakilishi wetu kukubali kuridhia na kutoa 'blanket immunity' kuhusu uhalarishaji wa utoaji mimba.I hope pro-life activists will sensitize this matter not to go through the parliment na kutungiwa sheria.

Life starts when the the pregnancy is made and nothing else.

Shadow.

 

[Susuviri]

Hii Beijing sasa inatupeleka kubaya. I do hope wabunge watasita kutunga sheria ya kutoa mimba.Penal Code na case law zimeweka exeption kuhusu kutoa mimba. what the heck wawakilishi wetu kukubali kuridhia na kutoa 'blanket immunity' kuhusu uhalarishaji wa utoaji mimba.I hope pro-life activists will sensitize this matter not to go through the parliment na kutungiwa sheria.

Life starts when the the pregnancy is made and nothing else.

Shadow.

Shadow mkuu, on the other hand, I hope that wabunge wetu hawatasita kutunga sheria hii, ili tuweze kuwapa wanawake control over their bodies, tuache kuwapangia akina mama what is right or wrong let that be their decisions!

 

[jambotemuv]

Jambotemuv, heshima mkuu, I would appreciate more nuanced thinking on this subject. Highlighting sentences from my long response and giving some banal response is not doing justice to this debate. Jaribu kusoma tena nilichoandika alafu kama una cha kujibu ufanye hivyo na siyo kubanalize my opinion. Asante Mkuu!

Asante Susuviri. Please see my coments in Blue against your respective argument within the quated text.

 

[Shadow]

Shadow mkuu, on the other hand, I hope that wabunge wetu hawatasita kutunga sheria hii, ili tuweze kuwapa wanawake control over their bodies, tuache kuwapangia akina mama what is right or wrong let that be their decisions!

Susuviri, Heshima yako mkuu;

But in one note; we have to not that there is no freedom without a limit. Suala la utoaji mimba ni nyeti katika mila za kitanzania na kiafrika kwa ujumla. Si kila kitu kinachotoka Ulimwengu 'ulioendelea' ni kizuri. Kuhusu uhuru wa wamama wamepewa na ile sheria ya kujaamiana. Sasa na hili la utoaji wa mimba kumbuka it takes two to tangle. Sasa na haki ya mwanaume katika kiumbe hicho itawekwa wapi? Je haki ya huyo mtoto as a human being italindwa vipi? Penal Code yetu imebainisha vizuri kabisa kwamba kama mimba inahatarisha maisha ya mama basi hapo mwanamke anahaki ya kuitoa na mengine kama hayo.

Umaskini tabu sana, unakuta nchi imeadiwa pesa na wafadhiri kuridhia maazimio kama haya ya ajabu ajabu.

Shadow.

 

[jambotemuv]

Shadow mkuu, tuweze kuwapa wanawake control over their bodies, tuache kuwapangia akina mama what is right or wrong let that be their decisions!

Control over ones body has never been extended to the right to endanger or take away life. Ndio maana ikithibitika umefanya jaribio la kutoa maisha yako mwenyewe unatiwa hatiani.
Again mudering a helpless child is not having control over ones body but over the child's life and unfairly so.