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Questioning the use of Tanzania Mainland instead of Tanganyika

Discussion in 'Jukwaa la Siasa' started by Mwiba, Jun 22, 2010.

  1. Mwiba

    Mwiba JF-Expert Member

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    Jun 22, 2010
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    The opposition also questioned the position of the Attorney General of the Union Government, saying it was not in the Union articles, as it has been questioning the use of Tanzania Mainland instead of Tanganyika in the context of the Union.
    “Most of the Union matters have been mixed up and it has now become difficult to differentiate which one is for the Union or not,” she said.
    Regarding the position of Zanzibar in East Africa Community she said Zanzibaris wants to see the defined position of their country in the Community so that they can stand on their own in the Community.
    Tabling the budget estimates for the Vice President‘s Office, the state Minister in Vice President Office (Union) Mohamed Khatibu said that there were some Union matters which were worked in finding a solution to the Union's outstanding problems.
    He mentioned some of the issues which were resolved as the distribution of revenue whereby the government of Zanzibar is getting 4.5 per cent of the budget aid each year and debt cancellation from the International Monetary Fund.
    Mkanyageni legislator Mohamed Mnyaa said that there was a need for amending the constitution as a solution to the Union problem.
    "The only solution to these problems is to amend the constitution because most of the things can not be implemented without amending it,” he said.
     
  2. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Jun 22, 2010
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    Haya, kumekucha tena. What else is new here?
     
  3. Kichuguu

    Kichuguu Platinum Member

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    Jun 22, 2010
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    laiti huu muda unaotumiwa na viongozi wetu kufikiria mambo ya aina hii ungekuwa unatumiwa kufikiria mambo ya maendeleo kwa wananchi nadhani huenda tungekuwa tumesonga mbele kidogo.
     
  4. stringerbell

    stringerbell Member

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    Jun 22, 2010
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    jamani kwani kuna tatizo gani kuwa na serikali 3?its about time this things need be sorted out ,waasisi wa muungano wote hakwenda mbele ya haki ,cha ajabu ni kwamba bado watu wanamawazo ya kinyerere ,in our modern days this things called MUUNGANO doesnt work anymore .one solution is to bring serikali 3,lets forget about hii zana ati nyerere kasema.yule mtu alikuwa binadamu kama sisi.
    kwa ushauri wangu kungekuwa na serikali ya tanganyika,serikali ya zanzibar,na serikali ya shirikisho ambayo itashughulikia ,ulinzi ,mambo ya ndani na sarafu tu.
    kila nchi itadeal kivyake na mambo ya fedha,ushuru,wizara ya nje,n.k
    solution nyengine ni kuvunja muungano kabisa kila mtu awe na mambo yake independent lakini uhusiano uwe wa freedom of kutembea na kukaa sehemu mojawapo utakayo muhimu uwe na passport na huu ni mfano kama european union kwasbabu wao wanatembeleana bila haja ya viza.
     
  5. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Jun 22, 2010
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    Stringebell,
    Zanzibar tayari wana serikali yao. Tanzania bara tuna serikali ambayo miongoni mwa masuala mengineyo inashughulikia masuala ya mwungano kama vile ulinzi, foreign, etc. Sasa tukiunda serikali tatu, serikali ya tatu itakuwa na kazi gani? Tayari kuna gharama kubwa ya kuendesha serikali mbili sembuse tatu? Za kazi gani? Hizo fedha zitatoka wapi? Actually tutaunda tu bureaucracy na nakuhakikishia malalamiko ya Wazanzibari yataendelea hata tukiwa na serikali nne.
     
  6. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Jun 22, 2010
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    Makubaliano yalikuwa ni ya Serikali mbili sio tatu (Rejeeni hati za Muungano)! Na huko kubadilisha jina toka Tanganyika kuwa Tanzania Bara hakuna ubaya wowote. Ni kama vile kubadili jina la Serikali Jamhuri ya Watu wa Zanzibar na kuwa Serikali ya Mapinduzi ya Zanzibar. Kuhusu cheo cha Mwanasheria Mkuu wa Serikali kutokuwepo kwenye hati za Muungano, sioni tatizo liko wapi hapa. Hizo Hati hazikutakiwa kubadilika milele? Tulitakiwa tuwe na Serikali isiyo na Mwanasheria Mkuu? Vile vile katika Hati za Muungano imeandikwa kama ifuatavyo:
    " During the period from the commencement of the union until the Constituent
    Assembly provided for in Article (vii) shall have met and adopted a Constitution
    for the united Republic (hereinafter referred to as the interim period) the
    united Republic shall be governed in accordance with the provisions of Articles (iii) to (vi)."

    Kwa tafsiri yangu isiyo rasmi ni kwamba wakati wa mpito (interim period), hadi kuanzishwa kwa Katiba ya Kudumu Jamhuri ingeongozwa kwa Hati za Muungano (iii) - (vii)! Kwa maana hiyo Hati za Muungano zilikuwa ya muda hadi kuundwa kwa Katiba ya Kudumu! Katiba ya Kudumu ilipoundwa ilijumuisha Hati za Muungano ambazo zilifanyiwa marekebisho mara kwa mara hasa baada ya kuvunjika kwa iliyokuwa Jumuiya ya Afrika Mashariki, kuingia kwenye mfumo wa vyama vingi, nk.
    Ndio maana katika aya ya (v) ya Hati za Muungano imeandikwa kama ifuatavyo:
    (v) The existing laws of Tanganyika and of Zanzibar shall remain in force in
    their respective territories subject-
    (a) to any provision made hereafter by a competent legislature;
    (b) to such provision as may be made by order of the President of the
    united Republic for the extension to Zanzibar of any law relating to any
    of the matters set out in Article (iv), and the revocation of any
    corresponding law of Zanzibar;
    (c) to such amendments as may be expedient or desirable to give effect to the
    union and to these Articles.

    Katika kipengele (c) hapo juu inaonesha kwamba Hati za Muungano zinaweza kuwa amended!
    Mwisho: Kwa kuwa suala la Mwanasheria Mkuu wa Jamhuri ya Muungano wa Tanzania si suala la Muungano basi si vibaya kuwepo kwenye Katiba!
     
  7. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Jun 22, 2010
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    Buchanan,
    Thanks. Naona hawa wenzetu wamezoea kucheza ngoma ya mduara. There is no way forward. Always backwards.
     
  8. M

    Mkandara Verified User

    #8
    Jun 23, 2010
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    Jasusi,
    Mkuu wangu nadhani sisi wote hatufikirii zaidi undani wa chimbuko la matatizo yoote ya Muungano. Tukubali yalifanyika makosa na kama yanaweza kurekebishwa yarekebishwe.

    Mimi sina ufahamu mkubwa lakini sijasikia nchi mbili zilizoungana kwa mfumo kama wetu..sijui, lakini kama ipo ningependa sana kuelewa mfumo mzima wa uongozi wa nchi hiyo na mafanikio yake. Na laukama hakuna basi tujaribu kuutazama upya Muungano huu na kurekebisha makosa yaliyofanyika kwa sababu tuendako sii mahala pa kubishana pasipo kuelewa chanzo cha mjadala mzima..

    Hata watu waliooana kindoa inapofikia point ya malalamishi ndani ya nyumba, hatuwezi kuyatatua matatizo hayo kwa kutafuta mbaya ni nani bali ni makosa gani yamefanyika kuharibu mawasiliano baina ya mume na mke ndani ya nyumba. Na hakika hawawezi kutafuta makosa ndani ya cheti cha ndoa kuhalalisha mgogoro uliopo isipokuwa wana ndoa wanatakiwa kujitazama wao wenyewe.

    1. Mwaka 1964 tuliungana na Zanzibar, sababu za muungano hazina faida yoyote kuzizungumzia leo kwani waasisi walishaondoka, hivyo kila mtu kati yetu anaweza zua lake jambo.

    Kitu kimoja tukubaliane kwamba huu ni Muungano wa NCHI mbili - Ya Zanzibar na Tanganyika, na hao Zanzibar have every right ku question maswala ambayo hayako wazi kwao.. Nakumbuka kati ya makubaliano ya Muungano, mojawapo ilikuwa mabadilishano ya Uongozi ya kwamba rais akitoka Bara makamu wake lazima atoke Zanzibar (vise versa) - This was the first mistake..

    Ni makosa makubwa kugawa uongozi kwa mfumo kama huu kwani tayari unaweka system yenye kuleta tabaka ya uongozi kitaifa baina ya viongozi wa bara na visiwani hali tukidai nchi ni moja yenye serikali mbili....Hapa mkuu wangu sintakubaliana na Nyerere hata kidogo. Na sababu kubwa ni pale tunapotumia kigezo cha utenganishi kuwa sababu ya kuungana.

    Just imagine, kama Katiba yetu (bara) ingeweka kifungu kinachosema kwamba Mawaziri na manaibu wake watateuliwa kutokana na mikoa yetu.. Ni lazima mkoa utoe waziri au naibu waziri!..trust me, within few years tungekuwa na matatizo makubwa ya Ukabila kwa sababu badala ya watu kutazama nini uongozi bora watakuwa wakitazama hiyo mikoa na makabila gani yamechukua Urais, waziri mkuu, na nafasi zote nyeti kisha ndani ya mikoa yenyewe, makabila na wilaya nayo nageanza kufuatilia mtililiko wa uongozi kulingana na makabila yao, wilaya majimbo na hata koo na kadhalika..

    Ndicho kilichotokea baina yetu na Zanzibar..Upinzani huu umetokana na malezi ya mwalimu wakati wake alipoanzisha kupishana uongozi baina yetu na Zanzibar na hata ilipokuja demokrasia na vyama vingi kwa ujumla wake ukapingana sana na katiba ya muungano. Marekebisho yoote yaliyofanyika ktk katiba ndio yaliharibu kabisa mazoea ya muungano ulotangulia..Ni rahisi sana ku amend katiba kabla hujaiweka ktk utekelezaji wake kwani kila mtu atakuwa ana hope will work..

    Na hakika sii kweli kwamba tulipounda muungano serikali zote zilivua madaraka yake na kuunda serikali mbili ya nchi moja na Taifa moja.. Hizi habari ni za kutunga kwani nakumbuka vizuri hadi hivi majuzi tu, Wabara tulikuwa tukitumia passport zetu kuingia Zanzibar! sasa hiyo nchi moja na Taifa moja imeakuwaje wanananchi wake watumie passport ku cross over....Ni kitu gani katika Muungano kinachodhihirisha umoja wa nchi yetu na Utaifa lakini serikali ni mbili hali Zanzibar wana rais wao hadi kesho! nini maana halisi ya neno PRESIDENT kama sii a head of a state!
    Vitu kama hivi hatuoni kama tunajichanganya wenyewe?..

    Haya siku hizi Rais anayegombea kiti cha Urais imekuwa ni utamaduni sijui kama ni sheria kuwa mwenza wake ni lazima atoke upande wa pili.. Hii ina maana bado tunatenganisha nchi zetu kwa mipaka ambayo kiutendaji tunasema haipo. Kwa nini chama kinachogombania kiti cha urais kiwe na makamu toka upande wa pili hali vyama vinaongozwa na itikadi ambayo sii lazima wananchi wa Bara wakawa sawa na wale wa visiwani.

    Haya huyo rais wa Zanzibar na makamu wa rais wa Muungano woote hawa sii lazima washinde visiwani vile... Karume alishindwa na Bilal ktk kura za wajumbe Zanzibar (baraza la Mapinduzi), lakini CCM bara wakamchagua Karume akawa mgombea wa Urais wa Zanzibar..mimi sielewi picha hii hata kidogo..

    Vyama vyote vinavyoanzishwa bara havina mgombea kiti cha Urais toka Zanzibar!..Nini nafasi ya viongozi wa Zanzibar kushinda kiti cha Urais wa muungano ikiwa visiwani hawana population ya kumwezesha mtu wao kushinda uchaguzi ndani ya chama vya bara. Hata kama tumeiga mfumo wa Marekani au nchi gani siijui miye, bado hao wenzetu hawachagui wagombea kutokana na wanatoka wapi..sisi tumeyachota wapi madudu haya ya kugawa uongozi baina ya bara na Visiwani hali tunaendelea kudai nchi zetu zimeungana..

    Kwa hiyo mtindo wa kugawana Uongozi wa nchi yetu ndio chanzo cha matatizo yetu na hakika ulitungwa na kuzingatia usalama wa Udikteta wa viongozi waliokuwepo (Karume na Nyerere)..Nyerere wangu sana tu lakini mkuu wangu I admire the late mwalimu kwa sababu he outsmarted everyone..Muungano ulitokea kwa kulinda utawala wa Karume at the same time Nyerere formed dominant one party system kuondoa Upinzani bara. Kisha akaunda Ujamaa kuondokana na CIA ambao walikuwa wamemkalia kooni hivyo kubakia mtawala asiyechukua amri toka kwa mtu yeyote isipokuwa wale waliokubaliana na vision yake..

    Huu Muungano, is second biggest failure of mwalimu after Ujamaa..Kila kitu kina backfire sasa hivi kwani Zanzibar kama nchi yenye rais wake wana kila haki ya kudai kila wanachodai kwa sababi katiba haieleweki kabisa. Haya majuzi tu CCM wamekubaliana na CUF kuunda muafaka wa serikali ya mseto..I mean vyama viwili vya kisiasa vinaunda muafaka kwa kufuata kifungu gani cha Muungano... Hivi Seif na Karume wata represent nini na vipi Zanzibar ktk serikali ya Muungano..since when? Na nini yatakuwa matokeo ya muafaka ambao unavunja baadhi ya sheria na makubalianao ya awali ya muungano!..

    Kila siku tunazidi kuweka chunvi ktk donda ndugu! -
     
  9. takashi

    takashi JF-Expert Member

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    huu ni opotoshaji...hivyo vigezo vyako havitoshi kutetea muungano . kwanini mambo 11 ya muungano sasa yamekua zaidi ya hamsini kisiri siri. kwanini hawataki kura ya maoni dhidi ya muungano. hayo mawazo ya nyerere yamepitwa na wakati...yule mzee alikua DİKTETA... NA KAMA WEWE Nİ MFUASİ WAKE ,HAPA HUMPATİ MTU.
     
  10. Kinyambiss

    Kinyambiss JF-Expert Member

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    No one cares because umaksini utakuwa ule ule. Leteni topics zamaana. This is trivia
     
  11. stringerbell

    stringerbell Member

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    Jun 23, 2010
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    Mr bucha
    wewe nilikwambia zamani kama bado una zile ideology za dikteta nyerere ,hiyo katiba unayosema wewe kwani msahafu au biblia haibadilishiki.the articles of the union only worked back in days ambapo siasa mbovu ya ujamaa na viongozi wote wawili walikuwa madikteta haikimruhusu mtu yoyote kuhoji huu muungano wetu .
    siku zote kutakuwa na malalamiko unless kila upande uwe na taifa lake ,relation ambayo ni nzuri iwe kama ya european union .ikiwa USSR wameweza kufunja muungano wao kwanini sisi tusivunje .this things called muungano doen't work anymore in this modern days.
    nyerere failed in ujamaa,leadership and the last thing is this one MUUNGANO.
     
  12. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Mada hapo juu inasema kwamba suala la Mwanasheria Mkuu wa Serikali halikuwapo kwenye Hati za Muungano na pia suala la Jina Tanzania Bara halikuwepo kwenye Hati ya Muungano, nimejaribu kuelezea kulingana na hizo hizo Hati za Muungano! Sasa hapa huzo unazoziita ideology za Nyerere ziko wapi? Hizo chuki dhidi ya Nyerere zitakuletea ugonjwa wa moyo!
     
  13. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Afadhali wewe Kinyambiss unafikiri nje ya box ndugu yangu! Kuna watu wanashabikia tu Muungano uvunjike na ukiwauliza kuwa Muungano ukivunjika zahanati zitajengwa, barabara za lami zitajengwa, nk kwa kuvunjika kwa huo Muungano, hawana majibu! Wamebebwa na wanasiasa wenye uchu na madaraka na ubinafsi!
     
  14. stringerbell

    stringerbell Member

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    naomba unipe faida moja ya muungano basi.watanganyika wanalalamika kwamba wanaibeba zanzibar kiuchumi ,na wazanzibar wanalalamika kwamba wanadhulumiwa kwenye maswala ya mapato.sasa hebu niambie who benefited more in this stupid muungano kwa uhakika ni tanganyika.how many times zanzibar tried to break away from the union and only tanganyika who keep trying cool it down,does tanganyika love zanzibar that much or just something fishy going on!!
    i think we need a referendum lets the peoples decide the outcomes instead of the politicians
     
  15. Buchanan

    Buchanan JF Diamond Member

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    Jun 24, 2010
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    Zanzibar au Tanganyika huru hazijawahi kukaa nje ya Muungano kwa muda mrefu ndio, maana wanadai hawaoni faida ya Muungano! Kenya walikimbilia kuvunja Jumuiya ya Afrika Mashariki, lakini sasa hivi wanalilia mno Jumuiya hiyo. Haya niambie, kuvunja Muungano kutasaidia kujenga barabara, kutupatia maji safi ya kunywa, kutujengea zahanati na hospitali, kutujengea shule na kubwa kuliko yote kutuondolea umaskini? Usichukuliwe na upepo na watu wenye ajenda binafsi na za kibaguzi ndugu yangu!
     
  16. Jimmy K.

    Jimmy K. Member

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    Kwa hiyo unshauri tuwe na kura kama ile ya ccm na cuf inayotegemewa kuwepo mwaka huu?
     
  17. stringerbell

    stringerbell Member

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    Jun 25, 2010
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    sawa sawa kabisa kama ile ya kule zenj,either uweke ndio au hapana ,tatizo la watanganyika siku zote wanaogopa changes ndio mana hili swala linapigwa dana dana ,sasa hivi issues za muungano zimezuka tena bungeni.
    mr buchana umesema hili swala linaletwa na watu wenye ajenda binafsi za kibaguzi can you explain to me in details please.kwasababu ninavyojua mimi hii issues imebase zaidi kwenye economy.
    nina uhakika tanganyika na zanzibar zitafaidika kiuchumi zikitengana ,
     
  18. Kichuguu

    Kichuguu Platinum Member

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    Jun 25, 2010
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    Muungano wetu ulikuwa na maana ya kuunganisha na kuchanganya nchi zote mbili ziwe nchi moja, ndiyo maana ya kuchanganya udongo kutoka bara na Zanzibar na kuweka chungu kimoja. Kilichotakiwa ni kuwa nchi yetu ni moja na ijulikane hivyo kwa mataifa yote; hata hivyo, ule wasiwasi kuwa Wazanzibar wasionekane wamemezwa na nchi kubwa ndiyo maana kukawa na provision ya kuwa na serikali ya zanzibar kuweza kuwa wanajiamulia mambo yao ndani ya Muungano. Wakati wa muungano original wa 1964, serikali ya Zanzibar ilikuwa inashughulikia mambo ya ndani hapo visiwani tu, lakini mambo mengine yote ya kitaifa yalikuwa nia ya serikali ya muugnao. Chini ya mpango huo isingewezekana kwa rais wa Tanzania kuteua mkuu wa mkoa au wilaya yoyote katika eno la zanzibar, kwani hayo ni mambo ya ndani ya Zanzibar. Usimamizi wa sheria zote zilizotungwa na serikali hiyo za zanzibari pia uliachwa chini ya serikali hiyo.

    Upanuzi wa mamlaka ya serikali ya zanzibar na manung'uniko ni vitu vilivyojitokeza mwanzoni mwa miaka ya themanini hasa baada ya vita ambapo uchumi wa Tanzania ulikuwa unadorora. Tangu hapo, serikali ya Zanzibar imekuwa inapanua mamlaka yake kidogo kidogo na kuchochea manung'uniko hadi hali tuliyo nayo leo.
     
  19. M

    Msavila JF-Expert Member

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    Jun 25, 2010
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    Referandum si suluhisho kwa maswala haswa yenye hisia. Endapo watu wataelimishwa kwanza muungano huu ni nini na matatizo yaliyopo. Mara nyingi viongozi huzungumzia kero na si kuvunja mwungano. Sasa hizi kero zinaweza kwisha kabisa na siwepo endapo hakuna mwungano. Lakini pia zinaweza kwisha kwa kukaa na kuangalia nini suluhisho. Je suluhisho linaweza kupatikana katika mfumo huu wa serikali mbili au tatu? Nyerere akitetea mfumo wa serikali mbili ilikuwa ni kutoonekana Tanganyika inaimeza Zanzibar. Sasa dhana hii haipo tena, hivyo mwelekeo wa refrundum, kwa mtizamo wangu uwe namaswali ya kuwa mwungano shirikisho au wa serikali moja. Vyovyote vile majukumu na uwajibikaji wa serikali zitakazotokana na hilo uwekwe wazi. Hati ya Mwungano ilkuwa temporal na hakuna umma ulioshirikishwa na ndio maana nyongeza na toa vipengele haushirikishwi. Sasa hivi sababu za kisisas za mwungano zilizokuwepo awali hazina nguvu bali za kiuchumi. Naamini Zanzibar na watu wake wanaamini kuwa watakuwa na nguvu kubwa za kiuchumi bila Tanganyika. Heri yao. Je Tanganyika na watu wake watateteleka kiuchumi bila Zanzibar? Sasa hivi swala la mafuta liko juu pengine baadaye na mabo mengine ya kiuchumi yatatokeza. Ukaribu wetu unafanya kuwa ngumu kugawana hizo maili 200 za bahari, sehemu kubwa ni mwingiliano kiasi kwamba mafuta ya Zanzibar pekee yako maili upana wa chanel baada ya maili 200 toka Tanganyika kuelekea mashariki. Kuelekea magharibi endapo yatapatikana ytakuwa yetu wote.
    Tusubiri mwelekeo wa referanum ya Julai , Mungu bariki 2013-5 tufanye hii ya Mwungano.
    Ila tusije fungishana virago!!
     
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