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Naomba tujadili haya...

Discussion in 'Habari na Hoja mchanganyiko' started by Roulette, Oct 26, 2011.

  1. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

    #1
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    Natanguliza salam kwa members wote, hasa wazowefu wa jukwaa hili.
    Leo nimeona swali langu nililete hapa ili ninufaike kwa mawazo yenu kama great thinkers.

    Katika pita pita zangu nimeona picha ya world wealth distribution (usambazaji wa mali duniani) ambayo ikanipeleka kuchimba zaidi ili nijue ni kitu gani kinasababisha dhulma hii, hasa tukizingatia malighafi (raw material) ya kujenga muindombinu ulaya na north america zinatokea in 'underdeveloped world'.
    Picha yenyewe hii hapa:

    conley_champagne_distribution.png
    Utafiti wangu ukaendelea kwa kuelekea taasisi zinazohusika na maendeleo kimataifa ambazo ni International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (ikijulikana kama The world Bank, au THE Bank), na International Monetary Fund (zote pamoja zikijulikana kama Bretton Hood institutions). hawa watu wanafanya nini? na mbona reconstruction ya nchi za ulaya baada ya WWII ilienda haraka sana ila za Africa na Asia zinachelewa? Nilisoma reports zao, na methods zao nikagundua (nadhani) kosa lipo kwenye Ufafanuzi wa neno Maendeleo.

    Hizi institution zinachukulia maendeleo ya nchi kama "kuishi kama ulaya". Kwa hiyo, nchi yoyote isio na GDP kama ulaya, wasomi kama ulaya, mabarabara kama ulaya na kadhalika inaonekana kua nyuma kimaendeleo. Na hata leo, indices za kusema nchi fulani iko 'developed' au 'developing' inatumia vigezo hivyo.

    Tabu ni kwamba ressources zilizo leo duniani haziwezi kutosha ikiwa kila mtu ataamua kuishi kama watu wanavoishi ulaya, na chanzo cha vita nyingi ni kujaribu kupigania na kuwahi kudhibiti ressources hizo. Tabu ingine ni kwamba wenye kumiliki hizo institutions wanabadili vigezo mara kwa mara ili nchi fulani zibaki kua 'developed' na zingine 'developing' na category hizo ndio zinatoa nguvu katika uwanja wa kimataifa. kwa kifupi, tunaendelea kukandamizwa sababu hatuwezi kujitoa katika hali ya maendeleo duni sababu wanaosema nani kaendelea na nani hajaendelea ni wale wale.
    Na kufatana na vigezo hivyo wanatoa 'misaada' (mikopo yenye very high interest) na kuzilazimisha nchi zinazofaidi mikopo mitazamo yao ya namna ya kusimamia uchumi wa nchi (kupunguza ushuru kwa biashara toka nchi zao, kupunguza ushuru kwenwye malighafi zinazoenda kwao, na kuongeza ushuru kwenye biashara zinazotengenezwa nyumbani, kupunguza mishahara ya watumishi wa umma na kadhalika).

    India na china zimejitoa katika harakati za maendeleo, kama ilivyo fafanuliwa na Bretton Whods institutions, na kuleta ufafanuzi wao wenyewe, toka kwa wanainchi wao. Leo katika vigezo vya hizo institution bado wako nyuma sana ila ukweli ni kwamba nchi hizo zinaenda kuitawala dunia.

    Hivi, tukijaribu kufikiria, sisi kama waafrika kuhusu swali hili, nini maana ya maendeleo kwetu? Kweli tunataka kuishi kama wazungu (destruction of social and environmental stability for the benefit of consumerism and industrialization) au tuna matarajio tofauti ?

    Swali langu, wana JF, na hasa wazoefu wa jukwaa hili: Maendeleo ni nini kwetu sisi? na tunajitoaje katika hali hii?

    Nawakilisha
     
  2. J

    Jasusi JF-Expert Member

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    Hayo ndiyo maswali aliyokuwa anajiuliza Mwalimu Nyerere. Afrika bado ni chanzo cha mali ghafi rahisi za kuendesha Ulaya. Na hiyo hiyo Benki kuu ya dunia ndiyo iliyokuwa inamshauri Mwalimu asiwekeze kwenye elimu, ili tubaki duni, na asiwekeze kwenye afya, ili tuendelee kufa at the age of 40 na watoto wetu wakifa kabla ya kufikia umri wa miaka 5. Mwalimu alikataa. Mwinyi alipoingia akaanza kutekeleza maagizo ya World Bank, IMF matokeo yake tukatoka 85% literacy rate na kushuka kufikia 60%. Hivi leo nadhani tumeshafika asilimia 70% ya Watanzania hawajui kusoma na kuandika na Kikwete anajisifia kwa shule za kata ambazo kuna mwalimu mmoja kwa wanafunzi 120. Umeuliza maendeleo ni nini. Kwa maliasili tulizo nazo ningependa kuona Tanzania tuna shule nzuri, tuna huduma nzuri za afya, tunapunguza matumizi ya mkaa wa miti kwa nishati yetu na kutumia zaidi gesi tuliyo nayo na nishati ya jua, upepo etc. Ningependa kuona Watanzania tukivaa nguo nzuri, na siyo mitumba. Sisi tunazalisha pamba. Siyo lazima tuwe kama Marekani au Ulaya. Lakini tunaweza kuinua kiwango cha maisha ya raia wetu kwa kuwawezesha kuachana na nyumba za matope na makuti na kujenga nyumba za kisasa. Kwa nchi iliyo na dhahabu na madini mengineyo sioni sababu kwa nini katika miaka 20 ijayo hatuwezi kufikia living standards za Dubai au Saudi Arabia.
     
  3. MTAZAMO

    MTAZAMO JF-Expert Member

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    kubwa zaidi hata elimu tunazosoma zinatufanya tufikiri kama wao na yao kama kipimo kwasababu tumeibeba elimu yao kwetu kama ilivyo bila msingi wa tunataka elimu yao itufanye tufikirije!
     
  4. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

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    Asante sana Jaasusi kwa mchango wako, kwa kweli umejibu swali langu (ingawa bado kuna majibu mengi sahihi kwa swali hili). Nikikusoma vizuri, maendeleo yanatakiwa kuendeleza binadamu, na sio taasisi, Pia maendeleo ni utunzaji wa mazingira. Ila nataka kuelewa maendeleo hayo yatazalishwa na nini? sioni jibu la kuelekea upande wa nchi na uchumi...
    Nataka pia kuongeza ufafanuzi wa Mwalimu kuhusu maendelo ili watakao kusoma na watakao changia wautumie kwa kuelewa/kuelewesha points:
    "Development is a process which enables human beings to realize their full potential, build self confidence and lead lives of dignity and fulfillment. It is a process which frees people from fear, of want and exploitation. It is a movement away from political, economic or social oppression. Through development, political Independence acquires its true significance" South Comission, headed by Julius K. Nyerere (collection of Nyerere speeches: 1966-1968)
    Yeye pia anaweka msisitizo kwenye "uhuru" na "dignity, fulfillment" ila hajasema hivyo vitu vitapatikanaje bila uchumi kuhusishwa...
     
  5. Ben Saanane

    Ben Saanane Verified User

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    Well this was the issue i was trying to raise yesterday. Development is a totally encompassing word and unless African government and people sit down and decide what is their development priorities, they will never be developed. most development you see in Africa today hardly impacts on the lives of real Africans, because like development of the colonial era it is still mainly focused on extracting resources from the continent. I believe that real development of a person, a group, a region or even a nation is what that unit decide to do that would lead to that unit being really productive to its self first of all then to the larger society(globe) as a whole. in most of this country that are being mentioned the people really feel disenfranchised from the so called development.

    World bank and IMF are not solely responsible for the underdevelopment of Africa. They have willing and greedy collaborators in the so called leaders of African nations who continue unashamedly to plunder the resources of Africa.

    World Bank,IMF na WTO hatari kwa Africa kuliko kitu kingine.Hizi institutions zime-replace utawala wa kikoloni badala ya kutumia Mizinga na Risasi katika kututawala.Ndiyo maana zilianzishwa immediately katika harakati za nchi za Africa kujikomboa kutoka ukoloni.Hakuna Africa hakuna IMF wala World bank


    Ndiyo maana New Inrternational economic Order itakuwa ndoto
     
  6. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

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    This is so true brother (and I will come back with facts) but the other question is: tunajitoaje katika mtego huu? Nchi kama Tanzania ina deni la billioni ngapi za dollars kwenye hizo institutions? na tukitaka wafute deni tuna pewa masharti yakutukandamiza zaidi.
    Je ni wakati muafaka wa "mwafrika wa kawaida" kuelewa maana ya misaada hii na kuamrisha serikali (kwa kupitia bunge) kukataa misaada na kuomba deni zifutwe pia?
    Tunaweza kuwasema hadi kesho ila kama hatutakua na system mbadala bado itakua ni failure tu. Ona Ghadaffi na Sadam Hussein (who were dictators, I don't argue) ila walileta sustainabiliti nchini mwao, bila kutegemea westerns. wote waliweza kuwapa wanainchi wao "a decent life" (economicaly) hata wakati wa embargo za zaidi ya miaka 10! Na (partly) because they proved the aid system to be wrong, they became a threat to capitalism (who sometimes is called Democracy I think...)
    Swali kwako kaka Ben ni hizi hapa: What is the way forward? what are the alternatives and what is the action to be taken?
     
  7. jmushi1

    jmushi1 JF-Expert Member

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    Salam kwako pia Bi Roullete,
    hizo institutions ndiyo tunazitegemea.

    Pia wadau wakubwa wa hizo institutions ndiyo nchi hizo ambazo ni wafadhili wetu.Na ndizo hizo hzio zilizochukuwa RM na ndizo zinazoendelea kufanya hivyo.

    Hazijabadilika,ni zile zile tu,sisi tunaweza tukawa tumebadilika,maybe hata different generations,however ni wale wale na wana malengo yale yale.

    So unaweza kuona hizo ni kama kamba tu shingoni mwetu.

    Zina act tu kama benki zenye masharti magumu na za kibeberu zilivyokuwa zikifanya na ambazo bado zinafanya mambo kama hayo kwenye idividual levels.

    Wao wenyewe kwa wenyewe kukopeshana siyo kwa masharti magumu kama wanavyofanya kwa nchi ambazo zikwahi kuwa makoloni yao.

    Ni wazi bado wanataka kuzibana.

    Hapa ni ngumu kutenganisha kwasababu maendeleo huletwa na infrastructures bora,yani miundo mbinu.

    Pia wanaotakiwa kuchangia hayo ni wasomi kama ma engineers,na wataalam mbali mbali kutegemeana na taaluma zao.

    Hakuna maendeleo watakayoweza kuyazungumzia bila kuwataja hapo facilitators ie professionals etc.

    Ndiyo maana tulipata shida wakati wa uhuru kwani tulikuwa na wataalam/wasomi wachache relative to our population.Pia katika dunia ya sasa,kamouni kabla ya ku invest wanachunguza pia kama kuna enough human resources with adequate knowledge on the prefered field/position.

    Kwa uwepo wa barabara nzuri unaweza uka encourage investment.People, goods and services can benefit from that.Kwahiyo hapo ndo maana barabara hu usishwa na maendeleo.

    Vigezo hivyo wanavitumia ili kama vikipewa kipaumbele,basi vitawasaidia wao kuweza kuinvest more efficienlty.

    Ndiyo maana unaona hata baadhi ya barabara nzuri bongo hadi leo zilijengwa na mkoloni na zilimsaidia kusfarisha maghafi nk.

    Ni kweli world resources are limited.

    However tatizo kubwa liko kwenye greedy ambayo imetokana na mfumo wa ubepari.So ukweli ni kwamba resources ni limted but again on the other side,the wealth generated from those resources is deeply unevenly distributed.There lays the major problem.

    So hapo juu,utaona kuwa bottom line ni interests za corporations ambazo ndizo zinaendesha serikali zao.I hope nimejibu baadhi ya maswali yako.If not i am more than happy to contribute more.

    Merci beaucoup!
     
  8. Rutashubanyuma

    Rutashubanyuma JF-Expert Member

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    Africans obliterated by the spirit of tradition will go only to hell..............................forget about development............................because God gives it to whom he chooses...........but rarely to his enemies like us............Read the Book of Daniel 4:30-37
     
  9. Rutashubanyuma

    Rutashubanyuma JF-Expert Member

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    In metaphysical narratives...................Africa inundated by official graft is both incapable and unwilling to absorb telling donor help................the capacity is not there........................and now the World is fighting the largest threat to human survival............................you may as well forget about..............African development.....................................MDGs are only a distraction but sometimes a reminder of how helpless Africa has always been..........................a captive of spirits of tradition...............we are idol worshipers........gods that can not even walk or talk like Mwenge wa uhuru.......................wasomi wetu huenda kwa waganga wa kienyeji kutafuta busara.............................sasa what do you expect when you see even religious leaders are enslaved in the kingdom of darkness............this is a spiritual battle ..hence can not be fought and won by flesh and blood......................encapsulated as humanistic reasoning.......
     
  10. King'asti

    King'asti JF-Expert Member

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    [​IMG] kwanza ili niione hii image vizuri
     
  11. King'asti

    King'asti JF-Expert Member

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    RR, ina maana sie tuko hapo kwenye mkia kwa bluu, sharing 20% of the 1.4% world income. Mi nadhani it is all explained in the selfishness and greedy of pple on position. Huwa najiuliza haja ya sie kuwa na mikataba mibovu ambayo inasemekana ina nia ya kuvutia wawekezaji kwa kuwapa madini bwerere. tunatengeneza sera za ku-favor wao zaidi. why should we be desperate for their investments? na hao investor wanachukua mikopo world bank etc, why cant we as a country do the same and run the engine? wasomi wapo, na hata kama hawatoshi (kama kwenye nuclear energy and stuff) tungeweza kuajiri anybody as long as plans zipo. im afraid mental slavery is also an issue here....
     
  12. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

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    Umejibu maswali ila hujasema what is the way forward... tufanye nini, kama taifa, kama communities, kama individuals?
     
  13. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

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    So ushauri wako ni kurudi kwa Mungu? Unajua kama there are more religious people in africa than in the western countries? kama dini itatuokoa, tunafanyaje? just by going to church au tunajaribu kutengeneza development theories from the bible (and Qur'an?) tafadhali nielewesh hapo...
     
  14. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

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    Asante kwa kunielewesha King'asti. Shida ni kwamba tayari wanatudai. ashakum si matusi, they hold us by the balls. na sababu tunashindwa kulipa wanaleta more loan to fuel 'geowth' ambazo zinakuja na masharti magumu kutekeleza etc.
    Kuna aspect ingine: hayo masharti hata kwao haya wasaidii na ndio maana leo kuna crisis. you cannot grow infinitely as an individual. inafika wakati hela inaisha, alafu unaanza kupewa loan na benki au maduka ili uendelee kununua, na atimae anaekupa hela nae anaishiwa, anakopa central bank, na central bank ikikosa inarudi kwa bretton hood...
    Is there another way of thinking?
    Please look at this:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2016
  15. jmushi1

    jmushi1 JF-Expert Member

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    Sijui kama watatuacha tufanye hivyo hao mabepari.Kuungana kutatoa nguvu zaidi.

    On the other side,only kama tutapata viongozi ambao wana agenda za kitaifa.Tuanzie hapo kwanza.Je unaweza kuniambia kama taifa tuna agendas gani?

    Ama ni kuomba misaada?Dira yetu na mweleko ni vipi?

    Tunasikia tu vita dhidi ya malaria ukimwi nk,sometime njaa,je umasikini ni nini haswa?

    Ama umasikini hauna uhusiano na hayo?

    So kwanini hatuna vita dhidi ya umasikini wa kupindukia kama tulio nao?
     
  16. jouneGwalu

    jouneGwalu JF-Expert Member

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    Naomba niende moja kwa moja kwenye hoja japo nmeguswa sana na wachangiaji wote!
    Kusema za ukweli RR (GG lol....), jibu la msingi la swali lako ni AZIMIO LA ARUSHA.... (naomba nisipigwe mawe, maana siku hzi kijana kutaja hii kitu unaonekana kama mwendawazimu vile)
    Nmefuatilia thread yako na majibu uliyoyatoa kwa Jasusi, Ben na Jmushi (heshima zenu wakuu)
    nikagundua majibu yako yapo kwenye hichi kitabu nmekishika hapa, (sorry sipo kwenye position ya ku-attach hii mambo ili niweze ku-highlight vitu kidogo).

    Azimio la Arusha limefafanua hyo situation inayotokea duniani saiv kuwa ni uchumi wa fedha, katika sehemu ya 3 (siasa ya kujitegemea) aya ya 2 MNYONGE HAPIGANI KWA FEDHA, kuna falsa pana sana pale imejadiliwa jinsi tunavyotafsiri na kupima maendeleo na uwekezaji kwa kuthamanisha na fedha, hivyo tutashindwa sababu hzo fedha hatuna na tutakwama kwenye mitego ya IMF na WB.

    Naomba ulitafute hili azimio japo usome hyo sura tu. (achana na ujamaa???)

    Azimio linajibu kiurahisi sana swali lako, way forward ni tuipange nchi yetu katika namna kuwe na hzi effective combinations 4.
    1. Watu
    2. Ardhi
    3. Siasa safi
    4. Uongozi bora.

    Tunaweza kuwa na mjadala mpana zaidi katika kila element hapo, lakini ni lazima tuhusishe fikra zetu kutoka nje ya sanduku.

    Ni lazima tukubali kuwa, tupo nyuma zaidi ya miaka 150 ukilinganisha na marekani na ulaya.....
    Ili kupata nini hasa cha kufanya kutoka hapa (nyuma zaidi ya miaka 150) ni lazima tujue wenzetu walifanya nini kipindi hcho?
    Japo najua mataifa ya ulaya na marekani yanaweza yasiwe mfano mzuri zaidi, basi twende China labda na kwa mbali India au Brazil.
     
  17. Lokissa

    Lokissa JF-Expert Member

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    bila shaka umeshapata nondo za kutosha kama waandika thesis au presentation.
     
  18. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

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    Asante sana JG (BB...).sasa hicho kitabu kinaitwaje na kina patikana wapi?
    Umesema nchi za ulaya zilikua level hii miaka 150 zilizo pita... kwa development index inayo tumika leo, hatukua mbali sana na hizo nchi wakati wa uhuru. kumbuka colonisation ilijenga infrastructures kadhaa na infreastructure kadhaa za ulaya zilibomolewa na vita, so the development gap haikua kubwa sana kati yetu na wao.
    Kweli kuna vitu vya nchi yetu tunaweza kutumia kwa kujiendelesha (the 4 ulitaja) ila swali ni kwa nini hatuvitumii? China, India na Brasil walisimama against misaada, na kama misaada zinatolewa ni bilateral ya ukweli. Brasil ina mradi mkubwa wa maendeleo (Agencia Brasileiro de cooperacao) ambayo sasa inawasaidia yamisri kuandaa elections, pia ina miradi mbali mbali katika nchi kama Congo, Angola, Gabon etc. China ndio tusiseme, wamekua bingwa wa cooperation with Africa.
    Ni kipi tumekosa kwa sisi kujidevelop wenyewe? kukataa misaada (from anyone) na kuendelea? Nimesoma unasema niachane na Socialism, but what are the alternatives?
     
  19. Roulette

    Roulette JF-Expert Member

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    Kweli kabisa... Ila kwa sasa siandiki, ni swali tu limekaa kichwani linanikera, sina jibu...
     
  20. jmushi1

    jmushi1 JF-Expert Member

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    RR,binfasi naamini kwetu sisi watanzania, maendeleo yatapatikana only tukiweza kuzisimamia rasilimali zetu vyema.Tukianzia hapo basi tutakuwa pia tunapambana na umasikini.Tukiweka msisitizo hapo,basi utagunduwa vigezo vyao havitakuwa na maana yeyote kama vina nia mbaya kwetu.

    Bado tunaweza kufanya vyema tu,mbona Gaddafi aliweza?Sisi kwanini tushindwe?Kama tuna demokrasia,basi what we miss is managing our resources for our benefits.

    Thubutu hao mabeberu, huu ujinga wanaotufanyia wawafanyie wananchi wao.Sisi wananchi wa kawaida tumekwama pahala ambapo kujinasua inahitaji either extreme measures kutoka kwa wanananchi ama utashi wa viongozi kama wakiamuwa kuwatumikia wananchi bila woga.
     
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